I don’t think I’ll be buying anything from them soon.
Wells Fargo sues Gunwerks in Federal Court
- Thread starter John Burns
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Then why don't you pay your sales taxes due that you've already collected from customers? You've been late and/or delinquent like 5 times in 10 years.
Really you hate banks?
I guess you don't understand how banking and points on YOUR money work.
I've made a good life loaning them my money.
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Having once experienced a state sales tax audit and found to owe a whopping $57.00 to the great state of SD I can tell you that it is something they (states) don't mess around with.
I'm baffled as to how Wyoming allowed them to float from the 3rd quarter of 2018.
I'm baffled as to how Wyoming allowed them to float from the 3rd quarter of 2018.
Well when you’re in $3million already I’m sure you’ve got a lot of hope that they turn a profit at some point.
While you make a number of noteworthy points for consideration I offer this:
Remington retains a brand recognition that is rivaled by very, very few companies. Whether you or I like the product is irrelevant. You see the big "R" and you instantly know what it is. Just like Coke, Pepsi, GM, etc..
Gunwerks don't have that nor did they ever. My only point is that I would have to think that a bank like WF would have to take that into serious consideration if they were to try and leverage a loan in a nefarious manner because they see some kind of hidden potential value. I don't see them (the bank) as being in the business of strong-arming businesses as it's just counterproductive to what banks do.
My personal opinion is the bank sees this as little more than debt collection. There really isn't much there... Some machine assets and property that will get flipped at an auction somewhere for fractions of what the principle is. -All for the sole purpose of cutting their losses. In all seriousness, what true value lies in a small bolt action gun company that might have accounted for .00001% of total gun sales in the US? $3.8 million dollars of debt really is not a lot of money till you can't pay it back.
Everyone's comments about the banks being the wolf at the door are interesting. I would invite anyone to experience a full effort sales tax audit once. There lies the true shark of these waters.
I don't think we would be having this discussion at this time if they just recently defaulted on their loan with WF, but what the hell do I know.
I hope they work it all out I was looking forward to the "Kestrel Killer" probably the only product of theirs I would ever own at the moment.
I wish I could have done that. I never had enough money to loan. My money went to pay for college educations for my 5 children. I guess you could say I invested in my children. I’m very proud of them and wouldn’t change a thing. Hell I’m a simple man. I don’t feel the need to tell people how smart I am or anything like that. I'm happy just to get a new gun, scope, or stock every now & then.
It was in the lawsuit. The default date was in Dec 2019. Not to say there weren't problems pre-dating that.
Amazing the willing ignorance by some posters on this thread, probably explains why most are borrowers and not lenders.
There is no "two sides" to the story. Shit happens when you stop payments and the collateral securing the loan is impaired. I'd imagine most of the collateral are Accounts Rec & inventory/equipment. Stuff disappears real quick, hence getting a receiver appointed to get a handle on things.
I'd bet WF would be thrilled to recoup 70-80% as the $500/hr attorney fees rack up and the loan goes on non-accrual.
Edit to note:
WF was the revolving operating creditor. They supply $$$ for the inputs, then as product is sold they get paid down. Real simple. A borrowing base gets backed up by a monthly Aging Accounts Rec listing. (Gunwerks stopped providing it). They probably kept collecting accounts and moved to a different bank. If this happened it's called conversion, regulators and authorities usually step in for any Federally insured institution.
There is no "two sides" to the story. Shit happens when you stop payments and the collateral securing the loan is impaired. I'd imagine most of the collateral are Accounts Rec & inventory/equipment. Stuff disappears real quick, hence getting a receiver appointed to get a handle on things.
I'd bet WF would be thrilled to recoup 70-80% as the $500/hr attorney fees rack up and the loan goes on non-accrual.
Edit to note:
WF was the revolving operating creditor. They supply $$$ for the inputs, then as product is sold they get paid down. Real simple. A borrowing base gets backed up by a monthly Aging Accounts Rec listing. (Gunwerks stopped providing it). They probably kept collecting accounts and moved to a different bank. If this happened it's called conversion, regulators and authorities usually step in for any Federally insured institution.
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There's really not much of value there except maybe a couple pieces of equipment.
The problem is that all the equipment is used now.
That building is nothing special,a good crew could raise one a week.
They are cookie cutter design with minimal erection time.
I'm wondering how they peeled so many people for money and no one seen it coming.
Shit not paying your city/state/fed sales taxes will have ALL of them beating on your door within a quarter
Accounts receivable often just get factored to another party anyway to speed things up. If they peg the basis for their Acc. Rec. on an aging method, they'll be lucky to collect on half of the total value. My guess is that WF will be writing a lot of those off as a bad debt expense.
Yea, the misappropriation of assets by removing them from their proper place of custody with WF is a big red flag to me that signals serious problems.
In TX, conversion (normal a civil matter) can very easily get converted into a criminal matter due to the language of misappropriation laws. They don't fuck around with that here.
I agree wholeheartedly. Did they actually own the equipment or was it leased? Its of no real value anyway. Like you say the real property isn’t either. I guess it’s like the old saying goes, “you borrow a dollar from the bank and they own you but if you borrow a million dollars you own them. If WF didn’t just pass the loss on to its customers it would be hilarious.
I really don’t blame the owner of GW. If I had the choice between working forever to repay 6 million or to walk away with the money and live comfortably the rest of my life I’d choose the latter
Most likely there is multiple entities. Building entity, operating entity and such. Seems to be the operating entity in hot water.
Of note, sales taxes are not super liens that can jump before a perfected security interest (WF).
Also, previously noted about the personal guarantees. Personal Guaranties are just about worthless unless they are perfected and secured, otherwise get in line and watch a judge write your debt off to $.1 on the dollar.
Of note, sales taxes are not super liens that can jump before a perfected security interest (WF).
Also, previously noted about the personal guarantees. Personal Guaranties are just about worthless unless they are perfected and secured, otherwise get in line and watch a judge write your debt off to $.1 on the dollar.
I'll be honest without any explanation this is how I picture Gunwerks right now from your statements.....
If I was Gunwerks I'd be releasing public statements ricky tick as to the contrary of WF's claims if they can. This isn't a some big product unveil, this is losing potential customers from bad press. The thing about high end guns and equipment is that your customer niche is typically well educated and not real anxious to bet on a dead horse. Just my two cents.
I imagine it’s because at some point it’s no different than grand theft. Treat him like Florida treats dead beat dads. Lock his ass up until he coughs up the coinage. White collar criminals typically try to avoid at all costs being locked up with a bunch of sodomites.
I have, successfully, in the very worst of times, and while debt may be an available tool (for me, at that time it most-definitely was not...) it need not be used, and successful business development most definitely need not rely on debt. Leverage is always a two-edged sword! Live by it... Die by it...!
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There’s a saying from the early 1900’s, “A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.” I’d be interested to hear an honest viewpoint from Gunwerk’s side of the equation. I would expect that their messaging department is on overtime at this point.
As another mentioned, banks are in it to win. That’s their job. I can imagine that WF, with their recent losses and share price nightmares are mandated to take off the gloves. They probably don’t want an abject failure, but are sure to be structuring the chessboard for an advantage. In fact, they had calculated their Plan B advantage pre-loan. Maybe Gunwerks is killing it and WF wants better terms. Maybe Gunwerks is jerking their chain and WF went nuclear. Who knows? Definitely not us.
I am willing to bet that Gunwerks has enough motivation, innovation and momentum to go for several more rounds. Of concern is the sales tax conundrum. I don’t know enough about the degree of rigor, precision and professionalism at the State of Wyoming Sales Tax Dept to evaluate this one. I do know that it took me 18 months to convince the State of California that I had indeed paid my payroll taxes for fiscal year 2017, two years after the fact; something that could have been resolved in about 15 minutes by rational consenting adults. That was fun.
I wish Gunwerks well and Godspeed, as we probably need more of what Gunwerks does and less of what Wells Fargo is capable of.
As another mentioned, banks are in it to win. That’s their job. I can imagine that WF, with their recent losses and share price nightmares are mandated to take off the gloves. They probably don’t want an abject failure, but are sure to be structuring the chessboard for an advantage. In fact, they had calculated their Plan B advantage pre-loan. Maybe Gunwerks is killing it and WF wants better terms. Maybe Gunwerks is jerking their chain and WF went nuclear. Who knows? Definitely not us.
I am willing to bet that Gunwerks has enough motivation, innovation and momentum to go for several more rounds. Of concern is the sales tax conundrum. I don’t know enough about the degree of rigor, precision and professionalism at the State of Wyoming Sales Tax Dept to evaluate this one. I do know that it took me 18 months to convince the State of California that I had indeed paid my payroll taxes for fiscal year 2017, two years after the fact; something that could have been resolved in about 15 minutes by rational consenting adults. That was fun.
I wish Gunwerks well and Godspeed, as we probably need more of what Gunwerks does and less of what Wells Fargo is capable of.
Dude,they've been fucking the pooch since 2018 and owe half a million in sales taxes alone.
Sorry,I bought a Chrysler product once
I doubt you'll hear anything useful or of worth until the case briefs work their way out simply because you can take anything put out to the public to either be PR nonsense or so vague as to be useless to someone who understands the nitty-gritty of accounting or legal proceedings.
Interesting to note that GW agreed to WF’s claim to appoint a receiver. Appears they knew it was coming and don’t deny the facts, just want it to go away.
Aaron Davidson is a crooked piece of shit. I've been saying that for a decade or better when they were best of the west.
if a lender really wants out, eg if wf wanted to get out of the firearms industry, there is generally enough language in the default section of the loan agreement to call a default and start that process (eg late payment, late providing financials and covenant calcs and tax return copies, etc). i always tried to negotiate notice and cure periods so that if we didn't do something (provide financials etc) the lender had to let us know and we had x days to get it done.
I think a lot of people are missing that part of the equation
simple banking processes make this a lot cleaner than everyone is making it out to be (why do you thing the judicial system uses banking and taxes to put slippery criminals in jail)
when you have a decent line of credit or equipment loan the bank receives monthly or quarterly financials .. for instances just like this
if they see AR and AP going the wrong way a few reports in a row questions start to be asked and the possibility of recalling the line or reducing it occurs
all this didn't happen overnight...never mind the sales tax ( which may have been in discussion with the state previously)
is WF calling everything in because they company is borderline and the see govt bail out on the horizon, and they can clear up a bad loan ...possibly
if true, does that make them poor business partners... possibly
does 2 + 2 always equal 4 yes...money is owed and not being paid
waiting for the truth (if it ever comes out), but don't expect anything earth shattering
not wishing against them; have never spoken to them or shot one of their rifles so I don't have a horse in the race
Hi,
Just another note in regards to big bad banks.....They are typically not licensed to seize serialized inventory, they have to pay a licensed company to do handle those things when it gets to that point. In which that licensed company is pretty much making more money on the handling fees than the banks will make from the serialized items themselves.
So Gunwerks, the other company in the suit and the person listed in suit are taking stance of:
They have never been late to WF for ANY of the loans?
They do not owe any taxes either?
That WF falsely accusing them of such?
They did NOT remove the money from the WF account in which violated the contract?
They did NOT remove/sell any equipment that was purchased under any of the loans?
That local/state Gov tax office is wrong?
The State Comptroller website is wrong and they have never been late on those taxes?
IF that is the case...for the love of humanity.....where is Gunwerks counter-suit??
Sincerely,
Theis
Just another note in regards to big bad banks.....They are typically not licensed to seize serialized inventory, they have to pay a licensed company to do handle those things when it gets to that point. In which that licensed company is pretty much making more money on the handling fees than the banks will make from the serialized items themselves.
So Gunwerks, the other company in the suit and the person listed in suit are taking stance of:
They have never been late to WF for ANY of the loans?
They do not owe any taxes either?
That WF falsely accusing them of such?
They did NOT remove the money from the WF account in which violated the contract?
They did NOT remove/sell any equipment that was purchased under any of the loans?
That local/state Gov tax office is wrong?
The State Comptroller website is wrong and they have never been late on those taxes?
IF that is the case...for the love of humanity.....where is Gunwerks counter-suit??
Sincerely,
Theis
State sales tax is a funny issue.
Traditionally most small business operate singularly in one particular state. All their consumer sales incur state sales tax. So its seen as a percentage of gross. And the state knows this. And is very quick to come after them. Jimmy and Sons on the corner of X street and Y street will get messed with real quick. The state feels that some other business can take that spot and those customers.
As we have progressed and more business are moving to an online sales venue, states are starting to pay attention to where businesses do their sales. How much in sales do you suspect Gunwerks does in their fairly poor state as compared to sales to CA or TX or FL? This fact is not lost on their states depart or revenue. So gunwerks stops filing or paying state sales tax. Usually they just dont file the state return. The first thing that happens is their state imagines up as large of a number as possible and “determines” this is what is owed unless proven otherwise. They will seek tax liens for this amount. Then repeatedly contact the business or accountant asking to modify this larger amount to the correct amount if only they file a return. They will send letters. They will call. They will beg.
Meanwhile they keep letting the business run so that sales to richer states provide the funding to keep the business afloat and growing. The state DOR may go as far as to recind the companies ability to sell in that state—to revoke their sales tax collecting ability. But they wont stop them from selling online. They will actively try to purchase in state to test this compliance but still take no action when told we no longer sell direct to consumers in this state. This can go on for YEARS.
In the end the state will allow the accountant to file the late returns. The business will pay what it owes and MAYBE some penalties and all will be fine. Sometimes there will be no penalties. It really depends on how much is owed vs what they claimed. If their stupid high number is crazy compared to the actual number then the penalties are usually waived or returned if you can believe that.
The department of revenue is not dumb. They also dont have much sway over a business who’s customers are in other states and they know it.
Think Im full of shit? Guess how I know...
Traditionally most small business operate singularly in one particular state. All their consumer sales incur state sales tax. So its seen as a percentage of gross. And the state knows this. And is very quick to come after them. Jimmy and Sons on the corner of X street and Y street will get messed with real quick. The state feels that some other business can take that spot and those customers.
As we have progressed and more business are moving to an online sales venue, states are starting to pay attention to where businesses do their sales. How much in sales do you suspect Gunwerks does in their fairly poor state as compared to sales to CA or TX or FL? This fact is not lost on their states depart or revenue. So gunwerks stops filing or paying state sales tax. Usually they just dont file the state return. The first thing that happens is their state imagines up as large of a number as possible and “determines” this is what is owed unless proven otherwise. They will seek tax liens for this amount. Then repeatedly contact the business or accountant asking to modify this larger amount to the correct amount if only they file a return. They will send letters. They will call. They will beg.
Meanwhile they keep letting the business run so that sales to richer states provide the funding to keep the business afloat and growing. The state DOR may go as far as to recind the companies ability to sell in that state—to revoke their sales tax collecting ability. But they wont stop them from selling online. They will actively try to purchase in state to test this compliance but still take no action when told we no longer sell direct to consumers in this state. This can go on for YEARS.
In the end the state will allow the accountant to file the late returns. The business will pay what it owes and MAYBE some penalties and all will be fine. Sometimes there will be no penalties. It really depends on how much is owed vs what they claimed. If their stupid high number is crazy compared to the actual number then the penalties are usually waived or returned if you can believe that.
The department of revenue is not dumb. They also dont have much sway over a business who’s customers are in other states and they know it.
Think Im full of shit? Guess how I know...
Heard WF moved their banking to Denver instead of keeping it local, so GW ditched them. They started moving loan accounts out and WF got mad and called their small business loan. "Big bank trying to bully us and we aren't having it. No seizure, no late payments, no changes at GW"
this scenario doesn't make sense to me. if they got another bank/loan, then the new bank/lender would or at least should have made sure the new loan paid off the old loan(s). the new bank would want to be first in line not 2nd behind wf. and even if gw were merely considering another lender, can't see wf getting all vindictive and spending extra $$$ to foreclose when they would be paid off with the new bank/loan.
i can see wf wanting to get out of the deal for various reasons (need the capital elsewhere, want to get out of firearms industry, smelled something bad at gw, etc) and finding a few blown covenants to legally allow them to call the loan. their suit hints at something deeper than that though, but who knows.
This is my own opinion (official info coming from Gunwerks soon).
Go ahead and believe the speculation you read on Facebook or the fake news someone with an interest in disparaging Gunwerks planted with a wannabe "reporter" in Casper, WY.
Can't give many more details at the moment while litigation is pending and agreements are being finalized, but this should all be cleared up by end of day with announcements and details following shortly thereafter. There have been disputes with the bank that, rather than backing down, culminated in a lawsuit.
We've always stayed current on loans, and we've always paid our sales tax. Probably been late a day here and there on sales tax. Show me a legitimate business that's never been a day late or a penny off on sales tax. Next to impossible with how convoluted sales tax is.
A logical move if GW didn't like WF business practices would've been to refinance. I'm sure a lot of suitors would've jumped at the chance lending to a "booming" business, charge 4-5% vs whatever abysmal treasuries are paying. 2.5-3M is not a big line of credit, an individual could handle that. WF probably would've helped them pump up their balance sheet to entice a suitor.
Of course if WF is correct and they are hemorrhaging cash and converting collateral no one would right mind would touch them. Experience tells me the latter is probably closer to the truth.
Of course if WF is correct and they are hemorrhaging cash and converting collateral no one would right mind would touch them. Experience tells me the latter is probably closer to the truth.
God you are really digging a deep hole.
Show some proof.
About the best thing you could do for the company.
One of the worst things that you can do is talk in a public forum.
This is my own opinion (official info coming from Gunwerks soon).
Go ahead and believe the speculation you read on Facebook or the fake news someone with an interest in disparaging Gunwerks planted with a wannabe "reporter" in Casper, WY.
Can't give many more details at the moment while litigation is pending and agreements are being finalized, but this should all be cleared up by end of day with announcements and details following shortly thereafter. There have been disputes with the bank that, rather than backing down, culminated in a lawsuit.
We've always stayed current on loans, and we've always paid our sales tax. Probably been late a day here and there on sales tax. Show me a legitimate business that's never been a day late or a penny off on sales tax. Next to impossible with how convoluted sales tax is.
I don't wish any bad thing on GW, but there's a huge difference in being off a "penny or two" on sales tax, and being delinquent multiple times. If you have an accountant, sorting out sales tax is a pretty easy deal.
Our family has run two businesses for over 60 years and has NEVER BEEN LATE on a payment for anything.This is my own opinion (official info coming from Gunwerks soon).
Go ahead and believe the speculation you read on Facebook or the fake news someone with an interest in disparaging Gunwerks planted with a wannabe "reporter" in Casper, WY.
Can't give many more details at the moment while litigation is pending and agreements are being finalized, but this should all be cleared up by end of day with announcements and details following shortly thereafter. There have been disputes with the bank that, rather than backing down, culminated in a lawsuit.
We've always stayed current on loans, and we've always paid our sales tax. Probably been late a day here and there on sales tax. Show me a legitimate business that's never been a day late or a penny off on sales tax. Next to impossible with how convoluted sales tax is.
But that's how the older generations do things, they pay their way instead of putting businesses on roller skates.
I'll be watching for the public statement about clearing this all up by the end of the day and will correct my post.
This is my own opinion (official info coming from Gunwerks soon).
Go ahead and believe the speculation you read on Facebook or the fake news someone with an interest in disparaging Gunwerks planted with a wannabe "reporter" in Casper, WY.
Can't give many more details at the moment while litigation is pending and agreements are being finalized, but this should all be cleared up by end of day with announcements and details following shortly thereafter. There have been disputes with the bank that, rather than backing down, culminated in a lawsuit.
We've always stayed current on loans, and we've always paid our sales tax. Probably been late a day here and there on sales tax. Show me a legitimate business that's never been a day late or a penny off on sales tax. Next to impossible with how convoluted sales tax is.
I'm reading the suit and don't really care about the article. Wells Fargo's claims are subject to perjury, so from their numbers, it seems there was a failure to meet expectations of the loan.
So, answer me this, if this would go to civil court, there's no chance a judge rules in favor of Wells Fargo?
Doesnt matter. Its not going to civil court. WF doesn't want to actually litigate anything.
Settle down. Just saying what I heard. Nothing wrong with it. Everything will be OK bud.
Exactly LOL. The note was up, so he had to pay. He would have secured financing well before that if he could have, regardless of anything to do with WF.
Edit: I shouldn't act like this is how everyone does business, but it's how 99.9% of people handle their C&I loans.
Hi,
Just a word of advice for the Gunwerks crew, not that any was asked of me but in the sake of deescalating what is clearly a train wreck.
1. ORDER all employees to STOP replying with their "own opinions", no matter what Director title is in front of their name. This is a situation for the OWNER to be the sole person discussing this matter so that he knows exactly what has or has not been said.
2. STOP attempting to play the big bad bank is against firearms industry card. It comes off as emotionally desperate for support.
3. SHOW proof via a counter-suit type situation that WF has basically made all this shit up.
4. SHOW proof that the States tax office has misappropriated your tax payments to some other lucky company.
5. SHOW proof via redacted screenshots of the payments on all the loans from December to Now. That literally should take like 15 minutes.
Sincerely,
Theis
PS: Before I get the "your out to get Gunwerks" card played on me because I am a firearms manufacturer....COMPLETELY different customer base. I am in no way, shape, or form manufacturing geared for hunters.
I am in all way, shape and form in having the firearms industry be upfront, transparent and honest when dealing with customers and potential customers.
The industry needs to stop acting like everything, every institution, etc etc is out to get them..that is BS. The firearms industry is the least regulated it has ever been in 20+ years.
Sincerely,
Theis
Just a word of advice for the Gunwerks crew, not that any was asked of me but in the sake of deescalating what is clearly a train wreck.
1. ORDER all employees to STOP replying with their "own opinions", no matter what Director title is in front of their name. This is a situation for the OWNER to be the sole person discussing this matter so that he knows exactly what has or has not been said.
2. STOP attempting to play the big bad bank is against firearms industry card. It comes off as emotionally desperate for support.
3. SHOW proof via a counter-suit type situation that WF has basically made all this shit up.
4. SHOW proof that the States tax office has misappropriated your tax payments to some other lucky company.
5. SHOW proof via redacted screenshots of the payments on all the loans from December to Now. That literally should take like 15 minutes.
Sincerely,
Theis
PS: Before I get the "your out to get Gunwerks" card played on me because I am a firearms manufacturer....COMPLETELY different customer base. I am in no way, shape, or form manufacturing geared for hunters.
I am in all way, shape and form in having the firearms industry be upfront, transparent and honest when dealing with customers and potential customers.
The industry needs to stop acting like everything, every institution, etc etc is out to get them..that is BS. The firearms industry is the least regulated it has ever been in 20+ years.
Sincerely,
Theis
It's what you heard, you should work on your presentation
You sound like the janitor that over heard something when you say "We"
I was quoting what I heard, and shared it. Are you really this dumb? You sound like a tool trying to grammar check a forum post.
And that collected money isn't yours to keep. People who withhold w-2 taxes and don't forward (and the employer side) find themselves facing federal prison. I knew a guy who fled the country after pulling that scam.
There is absolutely no way WF's team of atty's in this case would let that happen. No way they just out and out lie about it and post it publicly. They will have to prove their assertions for sure, as will GW.
I think the Gunwerks guys on here think they're being attacked but I'm just raising questions. I've seen the complaint filed by WF, which is submitted to the court along with exhibits. They would have to testify under oath that those are correct and true documents.
Meanwhile, the Gunwerks guys on here are saying, 'oh, just trust us, it's all bullshit.' They're not understanding that with any concrete evidence to the contrary if WF's claims we'd be piling on WF, doing what we could to support them.
I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I have no dog in the fight, but would hate to see Gunwerks go under screwing their customers while crying "remain calm!" I guess if this all BS, Gunwerks should have a nice counter suit, including loss of business from this dumpster fire.
This forum can be your worst enemy or best friend. There's some very intelligent points being brought up by some obviously very educated people on the subject. Rather than engaging legitimate questions we get the same rubber stamped answer of 'all is well, you'll find out later today.' It's not a very endearing response for the intelligent questions being posed; and in turn, elicit speculation about how Gunwerks is handling this debacle.
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