What’s the art behind hunting rifle accuracy

[sinister]

I'll argue the opposing view. When I squeeze the trigger I know a well-executed shot will land where I point it.

I don't shoot dots, but a hit on a large E-type or IPSC target only tells me I have a hit, vice landing within a known radius where I wanted to hit.

 

[Barelstroker]

I'll argue the opposing view. When I squeeze the trigger I know a well-executed shot will land where I point it.

I don't shoot dots, but a hit on a large E-type or IPSC target only tells me I have a hit, vice landing within a known radius where I wanted to hit.

That might seem all good but, shooting IPSC targets at distance won't tell you if the POI matches the POA or if a cold bore shot deviation must be taken into consideration or if differing shooting positions affect POI. I don't see that an IPSC target at distance tells as much as one shot per dot at closer range. It makes far more sense to get the 100, 200, 300 yrd shots worked out before wasting time & ammo at distance. Distance is for wind practice once the shooter/rifle system is proven.

 

[diggler1833]

I draw dots on my steel targets, usually about half-minute large. When I practice for hunting, I don't shoot for a group (the grouping is just secondary), but rather I'm trying to hit that dot.

Practice getting into your position for each shot too. Your body and relationship between it and your rifle at the shot is going to have more effect on POI than your ammo consistency (usually).

And the elephant in the room is your wind reading ability. Nothing takes great shot and makes it a poor one faster than missing that 180 degree wind shift 200 yards downrange.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I draw dots on my steel targets, usually about half-minute large. When I practice for hunting, I don't shoot for a group (the grouping is just secondary), but rather I'm trying to hit that dot.

Practice getting into your position for each shot too. Your body and relationship between it and your rifle at the shot is going to have more effect on POI than your ammo consistency (usually).

And the elephant in the room is your wind reading ability. Nothing takes great shot and makes it a poor one faster than missing that 180 degree wind shift 200 yards downrange.

I thought it was an accepted thought that groups lied anyway?


I do kind of what you do with steel, but I usually only make one 2-4 inch aiming point on my steel to see where I’m hitting in reference to my aiming

 

[diggler1833]

I thought it was an accepted thought that groups lied anyway?


I do kind of what you do with steel, but I usually only make one 2-4 inch aiming point on my steel to see where I’m hitting in reference to my aiming

Groups lie, load development is a myth, seating depth does nothing... I'll probably outlast all of the newer trends as they are proven otherwise.

 

[Ronws]

Groups lie, load development is a myth, seating depth does nothing... I'll probably outlast all of the newer trends as they are proven otherwise.

Not asking for a friend, asking for myself. Is the problem with groups is that it really does NOT predict what will happen on the next shot? That it can only describe what has been done?

As for load development, is the average handloader getting smaller variances in charge weight, maybe leading to more consistent power and does that help?

How much of barrel heat and flex, if any, is a thing?

 

[diggler1833]

Not asking for a friend, asking for myself. Is the problem with groups is that it really does NOT predict what will happen on the next shot? That it can only describe what has been done?

As for load development, is the average handloader getting smaller variances in charge weight, maybe leading to more consistent power and does that help?

How much of barrel heat and flex, if any, is a thing?

I think we were just sharing a little sarcasm.

I trust my "next shot" on critters an awful lot to the drop data that I gather shooting groups at distances. I just practice my actual field shooting differently.

I do truly believe in cold bore practice. That first shot of the day is as close to what you'll get in a hunting scenario. Every subsequent shot of the session is borrowing the data from the first. Drop data should be predictable...it's your wind calls that will get you.

Consistency in everything shooting/loading leads to consistency in accuracy. Equipment advances make it easier for the average handloader to increase their ammo quality. My comment about hearing that 'load development is a myth' etc... is because my testing and logged data suggest otherwise. Very much so actually.

I absolutely believe in barrel heat providing a variable when it comes to POI shift [on cheap factory barrels]. I cold bore map everything that I have, because I'm blessed to be able to shoot off the side of the house and it costs me no extra logistical effort. In my examples, the cold bore shots on my Savage and old Remingtons are .1 - .2 from where the barrel will shoot when warm. Those guns are just zeroed for the CBS.

I've got 7-8 cut-rifled barrels on various guns at the moment. I don't think a single one of those has any noticeable difference in impact from shots 1-20 in a session. It's the reason why I've switched to cut rifled barrels. * I do have a couple CHF barrels, and don't see a POI shift either.

Different dudes will have different experiences. I'm not saying that their results have to mirror mine, I was just making light of the fact that so many guys think that their method is the only viable one.

 

[Ronws]

I think we were just sharing a little sarcasm.

I trust my "next shot" on critters an awful lot to the drop data that I gather shooting groups at distances. I just practice my actual field shooting differently.

I do truly believe in cold bore practice. That first shot of the day is as close to what you'll get in a hunting scenario. Every subsequent shot of the session is borrowing the data from the first. Drop data should be predictable...it's your wind calls that will get you.

Consistency in everything shooting/loading leads to consistency in accuracy. Equipment advances make it easier for the average handloader to increase their ammo quality. My comment about hearing that 'load development is a myth' etc... is because my testing and logged data suggest otherwise. Very much so actually.

I absolutely believe in barrel heat providing a variable when it comes to POI shift [on cheap factory barrels]. I cold bore map everything that I have, because I'm blessed to be able to shoot off the side of the house and it costs me no extra logistical effort. In my examples, the cold bore shots on my Savage and old Remingtons are .1 - .2 from where the barrel will shoot when warm. Those guns are just zeroed for the CBS.

I've got 7-8 cut-rifled barrels on various guns at the moment. I don't think a single one of those has any noticeable difference in impact from shots 1-20 in a session. It's the reason why I've switched to cut rifled barrels. * I do have a couple CHF barrels, and don't see a POI shift either.

Different dudes will have different experiences. I'm not saying that their results have to mirror mine, I was just making light of the fact that so many guys think that their method is the only viable one.

Okay. For some reason, my sarcasm meter has been way off.

Interesting thing, though I have not seen the physical results is a claim made by Wade Chandler at Texas Predator Hunting where he was kind of discounting the Hornady podcast episodes (50 & 52, mostly) about group sizes. So, he said he did a cold bore group. I tend to agree with him that it is probably more a cold shooter than a cold bore.

Each day for 5 days, he would shoot the rifle once. And it patterned the same as if he sat down and ran 5 shots. Which means that the cold bore shot is shifting. For example, if I could trust cold bore was up and left by .5 MOA or whatever, then I could hold low and right to get my PoI where I want it. But if it is going to wander each time you make the first shot of the day, then grouping is necessary IMO.

In hunting, you get the first shot, maybe a second one. Most times, you can't even attempt the 3rd shot. And if shooting 3 times didn't do it, stop and do something different.

So, on a hot barrel, especially the cheaper ones, I wonder what the maximum dispersion is but then I suppose that depends on the how many shots in the string of fire.

 

[Barelstroker]

Groups lie, load development is a myth, seating depth does nothing... I'll probably outlast all of the newer trends as they are proven otherwise.

I know load development can be a thing as I've gone through the process many times. The difference with the way I work-up loads though is not to find that perfect load but, to ensure I don't end up with a dud which, does happen from time to time. Having stated that though, when I check loads for repeatability, I usually find that the majority of differing loads finish up to be extremely similar statistically with a very noticeable dud load combo showing up every now & again. It's the guys who use low sample number testing which I know tells very little truth which, they mistakenly believe enables them to sort the good from the bad.
As for group shooting in general, I strongly believe that it just messes with folks heads. Guys get all rapped around the axle with irrelevant data which, they generally perceive as negative when they should be concentrating on the merits of each POI relative to their POA. If guys would spend the majority of their time & resources on simply ensuring their POI matched the POA, many of the issues a lot of guys have would disappear. I can't think of anything 1 shot, 1 target can't tell them about their rifle/ammo/shooter system that a group can without the completely useless comparison of shot placement from an irrelevant testing philosophy. Each shot they take is an island unto itself, totally disconnected from any other shots. The only relevant connection is to the dispersion from the POA.
Using 1 shot, 1 target also tackles the issue of riflemanship when forced to change position whereas, group shooting from a bench or prone bares little practical resemblance to hunting.
Of all the arguments put fwd though, I believe the strongest argument against group shooting is the psychological impact the results have, especially with newer hunters trying to do their best to square things away for the big hunt.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Y’all have heard me many times brag on my Weatherby Vanguard in .25-06. Perhaps the best point to make, is when you find one that works, quit looking, and start enjoying.

TV shows are just not believable. If you see it on tv, it probably isn’t true. So, if a tv star puts five shots in one hole with his 3 1/2 pound 700 H&H forget it. He probably has a .22 insert in the barrel, shooting BB Caps and the holes were put the target by a pencil.

Recoil. Stock fit is the most important part of recoil management. If it does not fit, it’s going to hurt. We have a beautiful Remington 700 from the early 1970’s. Caliber .243. Not ever close to fitting. I’d literally rather spend a range session with a .416 Ruger than shoot a 5 shot group with that .243. Brenda loves it, kills deer with it.

Ultra light weight rifles. We had a really nice 6.5 Creedmoor in a rifle that weighed 4.5 pounds. It would shoot, but getting it steady was pretty much impossible. I am proud someone else owns it. Seems everyone who writes about “guns” in magazines is especially enamored with ultra light rifles, Reference, A recent issue of a “precision” rifle magazine, shows a fellow balancing a rifle from its muzzle on his pointer finger. Glad he loves that hard kicking, miserable POS because he can keep it.

Practice, practice, practice. Shoot the rifle with light loads, then start mixing heavy and light loads, especially if the loads are not marked, so as a shooter, you won’t know which is which. (Just make sure they are practice loads and well marked as such). And make sure your practice is not just sitting at a bench.

Finally, recoil is a sometime thing. Sometimes a fellow or lady is born who can handle it just fine. Other times a person is born who just can’t handle it. Which ever you don’t fret it. It’s like being born as a fellow who’s a 400 pound weightlifter or a 140 pound marathon runner. We are all a little bit different. It’s just the way it is. Better to nail that pronghorn at 400 yards with a 6mm Creedmoor than miss it cleanly with a 300 Weatherby magnum. Handling a heavy recoiling rifle,

So, light rifles. Forget em. What’s the point of saving a pound and a half on a mountain hunting trip, when that fifteen thousand dollar big horn sheep walks off from your missed shot. Better to spend the prep time loosing weight and riding that bike to get in shape. (And get a hunting rifle heavy enough to be steady when you aim)

 

[hlee]

You can’t even smell a big horn sheep tag for $15k.

 

[Ronws]

Of all the arguments put fwd though, I believe the strongest argument against group shooting is the psychological impact the results have, especially with newer hunters trying to do their best to square things away for the big hunt.

In the Hornady podcast, they mentioned some people were going to get miffed that the rifle they thought was less than 1 MOA is more than that with longer strings of fire.

Along with barrel heat, etctera, I think shooter fatigue plays a part. I don't mean that the shooter is consciously aware of being tired. But muscles can fatigue from repeated impacts. It could change the body's reaction to recoil impulse.

I have an Oryx chassis and their pads do not have any cushion to very little. And I had a Limbsaver Airtech Slip-on ( I am king of the poors) on there and it works fine.

Then I saw the Backstop by Backfire TV and thought it was a great idea and they make one for the Oryx and MDT stocks. I got a couple of ouches. The recoil impulse was shifting on me. I was getting 4 MOA at 100 yards when I am normally no more than 1 MOA, sometimes less. I only bought the one. So, I took it off and put the Airtech back on and spent a few weeks of dry fire practice to get rid of the flinch.

 

[cramfarm]

The single most important thing one can do to improve his hunting rifle accuracy is to get off the bench and shoot it in field positions, however you think you will have to shoot out in the field thats what needs to be worked on. Has anybody reading these forums ever seen a shooting bench at a military range, I haven't because the military knows the marksmanship needed for what they do has nothing to do with shooting off a bench, nom firefight is going to have combatants lined up perfectly in front of shooters and have the shooters adjust their sandbags and worry about weather or not their barrel is at optimum temperature and the rest of the nonsense that a person reads about. I don't know of any hunting circumstance that has a bench in the field, if a person wanted to pack one in then I suppose he could keep on shooting off the bench because it might be usefull for him since he would have one in the field. How many times has anyone been to a range and seen anyone shoot anywhere but off a bench, even the guys with bipods put them on a bench when they shoot. I'd be willing to bet its more than 100 to 1 the ratio of shooters at a range shooting of benches vs position shooting. If a person can shoot his rifle in a field position as well as it can be shot off a bench and he is not happy with the groups then he could change things up but if he can only shoot 3 min. in all of the field positions and hunting is his use for the rifle what difference does it make if it shoots 1/2 min off the benches. I suggest to new shooters interested in Highpower to shoot the factory barrel out of their rifles before they get them rebarreled because it will take enough shots through a good wearing barrel like a 223 or 308 to wear it out when you are learning to shoot so maybe by the time the barrel is shot out you can shoot well enough to be able to use a fancy barrel but the average hunter who only shoots off the bench really is a poor shot when forced to shoot in field position only because he doesn't learn to shoot .

 

[tysonpence]

The best way I’ve found to improve accuracy is shooting. Shoot a lot. If you can’t shoot a lot you’re shooting something too big. Most people can only handle the recoil of 30-06 or smaller without feeling like they got hit with a sledge hammer after a box of ammo. If it took the energy of a 300 win mag to kill something, archery hunting wouldn’t be a thing. Get something you can shoot without developing a flinch. If that’s 243 and it’s legal to hunt with where you are, then take that. Then practice with it until you are happy, shoot bench, prone, off a tripod, off shooting sticks, whatever you are going to have in the field.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I don't know of any hunting circumstance that has a bench in the field, i

I have a friend, a fine marksman who is getting on in years. And he has mild Parkinson. Holding a rifle stead without assist is no longer an option. The man lives and breathes deer hunting and well as Handgun Silhouette. He has an adaptive assist for his silhouette matches and built a neat little portable deer stand. Which has an extension that works exactly as a bench rest. He hooks it up to his tractor and tows it to the place on the lease where he wants to hunt. Leaves it there for the season. He also has a couple other stands that have a bench type setups that he built. He's still very active but sadly, the hands are way "too active."

The man is something of a genius.

It's very true that shooting off a bench is pretty much a waste of good gunpowder when preparing for hunting season. One needs to practice using the positions he will used in the field. But I do see lots of folks at the range, sighting in off a bench, and then lots and lots of deer being harvested as the season progresses. They must be doing something right.

 

[Barelstroker]

In the Hornady podcast, they mentioned some people were going to get miffed that the rifle they thought was less than 1 MOA is more than that with longer strings of fire.

Along with barrel heat, etctera, I think shooter fatigue plays a part. I don't mean that the shooter is consciously aware of being tired. But muscles can fatigue from repeated impacts. It could change the body's reaction to recoil impulse.

I have an Oryx chassis and their pads do not have any cushion to very little. And I had a Limbsaver Airtech Slip-on ( I am king of the poors) on there and it works fine.

Then I saw the Backstop by Backfire TV and thought it was a great idea and they make one for the Oryx and MDT stocks. I got a couple of ouches. The recoil impulse was shifting on me. I was getting 4 MOA at 100 yards when I am normally no more than 1 MOA, sometimes less. I only bought the one. So, I took it off and put the Airtech back on and spent a few weeks of dry fire practice to get rid of the flinch.

So Ron, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you weren't so happy with the Backfire butt pad. Is this correct?
Since I'm very interested in the Backfire pads, could you please elaborate on your experience.
Kind regards .......Barelstroker.

 

[Ronws]

The best way I’ve found to improve accuracy is shooting. Shoot a lot. If you can’t shoot a lot you’re shooting something too big. Most people can only handle the recoil of 30-06 or smaller without feeling like they got hit with a sledge hammer after a box of ammo. If it took the energy of a 300 win mag to kill something, archery hunting wouldn’t be a thing. Get something you can shoot without developing a flinch. If that’s 243 and it’s legal to hunt with where you are, then take that. Then practice with it until you are happy, shoot bench, prone, off a tripod, off shooting sticks, whatever you are going to have in the field.

^^^ This.
"Beware the man with only one gun. He probably knows how to use it really well."

Bench work is okay for isolating the rifle and seeing what it will do. But, for me, even at the range, I zero and shoot with the butt in my shoulder because I hunt with a tripod, standing or sitting on my camp stool.

Not every range allows firing a rifle while standing. Whether off hand or supported. So, really, what I need to do is retire from my job and build the range we all want. Bays for rent that go to at least 200 or 300 yards so you can true the data in your rifle profiles. Different structures like the caltrops or something to represent a fallen log. Or a tree trunk. As well as where you can set up you tripod. And have deer targets. Maybe with blinking LED lights when you hit the boiler room. And out to 300 yards, the nominal max distance, at least in the south and southeast hunting is concerned.

I totally agree that you don't need a .300 WM unless you just like it. It is said that a .30-06 has harvested so many animals but I also think that is because it has been around the longest.

In my state, public land hunting with a centerfire rifle requires no smaller than a .243 Win. So, that or any of the 6s and up will do.

If you want a magnum round, and I do have one, use softer recoil pads. I have spent money on the Backstop, didn't work out for me. So far, the best feeling and most consistent has been the cheapie Limbsaver Airtech.

Or, you can wear one of those shooter pads and they do make them for magnum rounds. "Well, I wouldn't be wearing one of those while hunting."

Fine, don't go hunting.

The only way you get good at it is practice and you can only practice the right things if you are not flinching or anticipating pain.

 

[Ronws]

So Ron, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you weren't so happy with the Backfire butt pad. Is this correct?
Since I'm very interested in the Backfire pads, could you please elaborate on your experience.
Kind regards .......Barelstroker.

I thought it was a great idea. Engineered to handle different parts of the recoil impulse. And they make one that fits the Oryx chassis that holds my 7 PRC. So, I went to the range. And the gun just would not shoot less than 4 MOA. And a few times, I had a jab of pain.

The only reason I can think of is precisely the fact that the engineer is trying to time the recoil impulse. But, for me, it was inconsistent and causing pain. Great idea but it did not work for me and maybe I am the problem. You might have better luck. I would say to try at least one, Yes, it's 90 bucks. I just won't be buying another.

 

[chase723]

Are you able to shoot those rounds back-to-back? The reason I can’t “Eric cortina” 3 rounds back to back in my 28nos is the velocity change from putting rounds in a hot chamber. I see 20fps difference when I rack a 2nd or 3rd round into a hot chamber and take 30 sec to line up the shot. Makes sense, as all powders are temperature sensitive to some degree. Doesn’t make a difference at the 100 yards gunsmiths test at, but it’s an issue at longer distances.

In all seriousness, why are you taking 30 seconds to line up the shot? Certainly heat sink from a hot chamber can warm up a round, so why not shoot, eject the case, leave the bolt open, get back on target, rack the next round and fire? Should be able to produce a 3rd group in ~30 seconds. After that, you might want to wait 3-5 minutes to shoot the next one. When I lived in Georgia I’d often shoot when it was nearly 100F out. Barrels have a hard time cooling down in that environment. When doing load development in that scenario I’d shoot a group as above and then cool the barrel down by rubbing it with a cold, wet wash cloth.

 

[45-90]

I Never take 30 seconds to line up a shot? That would be total irritation to me...kick him in the boot type irritation.


I used to shoot thousands of rds of 308 at 1000 yds in the mountains across canyons. The rule I imposed on my self was to shoot within 5 seconds after dropping the rd in tbe chamber.
Shoot 25 rds without stopping when you're on, max time 5 seconds between shots, 2 Oz trigger helps.

Then heat off the barrel distorts the view, and ya have to stop. Smell the steel burning, the barrel is sizzling hot...the wind hasn't changed and you're on target, a hot barrel is no reason to stop...you'll see the impact change vertically...just adjust on the next rd, 5 seconds later.

Up here, If ya want to hit anything twice in a row ya shoot fast because the wind changes very quickly ...and you'll miss the whole target by yards....or a full sized Cadillac to the left not uncommon, and wind measuring devices except a flag at target are most likely useless.

Hunting is totally dependent on the type of hunting you do.
I killed almost everything except varmints on purpose, at around 100 yds or less.
Deer and elk are shot almost as soon as the rifle hits the shoulder running full out or standing, however the game presents itself, all shots are off hand...you're close.
I used mostly 2 calibers the 7mm Rem mag early on, but unimpressive results over a 7 mauser at short range. So went to the 338 WM 250 gr bullets sometimes 200 gr factory seconds on deer, up to 275 gr. and better results for instant kills, for my style of hunting, which is up close.
The key is rabbit and squirrel shooting with the same rifle...shoot movers off hand.

I don't use 2 oz triggers on hunting rifles.
For me I used to use jackrabbits as off hand targets, running, standing or leaping through the air as they clear the brush.

Shooting steel or paper targets off a bench, does not prepare you for certain types of hunting...thats just to confirm zero. Now go do some off hand rabbit shooting.