Johnnie Walker Green is their best offering IMO, the only one that is a vatted malt (all single malts).
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What’s the BEST bourbon?
- Thread starter JM4590
- Start date
You bring up a very good issue, Mr. D, & I would like to address that:
"Best" anything is always subjective, according to any person's opinion. Sometimes, when lots of people say the same thing about a product, one may conclude they are right about it. If lots of people say this/that brand of bourbon is good/best, perhaps its because a majority think it is so. Thats good evidence for a conclusion, in my opinion.
Now, getting to your idea... I will go on record here to suggest that I think you are on to something very important in the whiskey/bourbon/distillate making process: the actual distillation process itself.
Modern column stills are 24/7 continuous use apparatus, I think generally only shut down for periodic maintenance & cleaning. The distillers economically have to extract all the alcohol from the mash. This includes the good, the bad, & the ugly. In my opinion, comparing a modern column still to a single charge pot still, the pot still will produce the better distillate because with a pot still, the process can be manipulated to separate only the good, discarding the bad & the ugly. Let me elaborate. And again, this is just my opinion. I'm open to correction & learning something...
A continuous operation column still as used by modern American distilleries is a large column where they pump in the wort/mash/ fermented liquid and inject steam under it, bubbling up & producing a product of no more than 165? proof which is piped off , watered down & barreled at no more than 125? proof. By law, bourbon has very specific definitions. Anyway...
A continuous column still will extract everything: heads, hearts, tails, if my understanding is correct, and operates continually all day long until the supply runs out or they shut it off or whatever. Versus a single charge pot still, which steams off, in order, foreshots (high test lighter fluid/bad ju-ju: discarded) heads, hearts (the best of the distillate, kept & barreled), then finally tails (lower proof, lots of flavor, often recycled into the next batch).
So, a single charge pot still is, in my opinion & understanding, better able to separate & remove only the "best" distillate, able to separate & discard the less desirable foreshots, heads, & tails, producing the "best" distillate. Why is this important?
Fermentation naturally produces disagreeable things that if not separated, will produce headache and hangover. Properly distilled spirits will not give you a headache or a hangover.
So... My conclusion that the "best" booze (whether whiskey, vodka, rum, etc)(bourbon, Scotch, Irish, Canadian, Japanese, Indian, English whiskeys...) will by necessity be a small batch gourmet hootch. My take on this is similar to food: hand made/home made apple pie is almost ALWAYS going to be "better" (quality, flavor, freshness, etc)(but perhaps not price-wise) than industrially produced, mass produced products. But not ALWAYS. Some guys who make home-made hootch can fuck up a good thing. Think Prohibition era moonshine, for example. There's 2 kinds of booze: that which is made to sell, and that which is made to drink.
Just one guy's opinion.
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They choose what to cut out during the distillation process. It's not like they include everything because methanol comes off first.
I wish I could but I do not know their process. This is my assumption:
1. Mash grain
2. Ferment
3. Distill
During distillation the first distillate which would be primarily methanol would be collected as waste (assuming they valve to a different collection area labeled waste).
My guess is this is monitored via GC (Maybe not but that's how I would do it). Once the BP is reached for ethanol they collect it (along with water) and keep collecting until they start collection the tail (hydrocarbons and other things). Obviously they have to add water from what I'm guessing is a RO or some type of water system (doubt it's a UPW system).
My assumption is they have experimented with types of barrels, amount of tail, time in the barrels etc to determine what type of flavor they get.
That's my uneducated guess, wonder how close I am.
Ah so it's a fractional column and not a simple column, makes more sense to do it that way.
OK, now we're talking Scotch. I do have 200 ml bottles (one each) of Johnnie Walker Blue and Black, just to taste test. But my pride and joy is a 750 ml bottle of "Lagavulin 16." Nice and "peaty." Which, of course is why it tastes like dirt! It was smoked with Scottish peat! (for those that don't know).
After a simple search & some reading on www.homedistiller.org, I learned that commercial continuous column industrial stills can, indeed make cuts by placing take-offs at various levels in the vapor path. The higher the level of take-off in the path, the higher the proof/abv can be accurately removed. Other, lower take-offs remove the more desirable product, and the lowest take-off removes & recycles/re-injects back into the steam path the lower stuff... if my understanding is correct. But paraphrasing, the guy who explained this also said that very few modern industrial distillers do this, because it is less economically productive. He said "most" industrial (modern booze makers) simply extract and barrel whatever comes off & call it good. Barrel aging seems to reduce the bad ju-ju. He explained it like this: economically speaking, the cost of industrial equipment, raw supplies/ingredients, fuel, barrels, overhead, etc. all contribute to the need for getting the most ethanol from the process. If they have to include some of the headache/hangover components, so be it. It all averages out in the end and people like it.
Now... If someone can recommend a few small batch bourbon distillers with superb products at a relatively low price point, I'm all ears. This is a fun discussion for me.
Now... If someone can recommend a few small batch bourbon distillers with superb products at a relatively low price point, I'm all ears. This is a fun discussion for me.
There is a distillery local to me, called Copper Run, located near Branson, Missouri.
We visited it one afternoon and sampled several of their products, called "spirit whiskey" rather than bourbon. They use a relatively small (140 gallon) pot still.
I was not favorably (flavorably?) impressed. We didn't buy anything & have not been back. But back then, none of their product was more than two years old. I think I may have to visit again & re-evaluate. Anybody who is doing small batch commercial distilling gets my respect, even if I dont like the taste of their stuff.
We visited it one afternoon and sampled several of their products, called "spirit whiskey" rather than bourbon. They use a relatively small (140 gallon) pot still.
I was not favorably (flavorably?) impressed. We didn't buy anything & have not been back. But back then, none of their product was more than two years old. I think I may have to visit again & re-evaluate. Anybody who is doing small batch commercial distilling gets my respect, even if I dont like the taste of their stuff.
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I live in Lexington now. I don't know anything about bourbon but if anyone wants me to try to find them something I can do that. We apparently have stuff here that isn't widely distributed outside the state so I can rent a Trans Am do a road trip.
y'all are bananas.
Pappy is overrated, the 10y moreso than others. The 15 is probably the best followed closely by the 23. All are overpriced by a factor of 10x. I blame celebrities for this...
If you like wheated bourbons, do yourself a favor and pick up a bottle of larceny barrel proof batch c922 or b523. The B523 is probably available right now at your local liquor store for ~$60.
Breaking Bourbon rated it a 4.5/5, alongside the better Stagg and WLW offerings, so it's not just my personal preference of bitterness towards pappy prices.
Pappy is overrated, the 10y moreso than others. The 15 is probably the best followed closely by the 23. All are overpriced by a factor of 10x. I blame celebrities for this...
If you like wheated bourbons, do yourself a favor and pick up a bottle of larceny barrel proof batch c922 or b523. The B523 is probably available right now at your local liquor store for ~$60.
Breaking Bourbon rated it a 4.5/5, alongside the better Stagg and WLW offerings, so it's not just my personal preference of bitterness towards pappy prices.
I had pappy,s 15 yr and Weller, once each and they were good , and don't get me wrong that's some top notch bourbon, but I'm just a poor redneck on a retired Ironworkers pension, so just plain old black extra aged Jim Beam or Wild Turket 101 for me , and that's been my go to for 30 plus years , although at 67 I've decided to cut back to only drinking on the weekends now , gotta give the ol liver a break.
It's the bottle that's full, sitting right in front of you, right now.
That is, unless of course, you are Irish. Then, the bottle sitting in front of you is empty.
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My favourite so far is Widow Jane, from NY. Just a ignorant Brit, but it's the one for me so far.
Happy to arrange a cultural exchange if anyone has a scotch they want sending over for a equivalent bourbon.
Happy to arrange a cultural exchange if anyone has a scotch they want sending over for a equivalent bourbon.
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I Drank My $100,000 Bottle of Whiskey and I Have No Regrets
Expensive whiskey — like LeNell's Red Hook Rye — can be really hard to find and cost over $100,000. But once you find a rare whiskey, do you drink it or save it to sell? Here's why one writer decided to be a drinker rather than a rare whiskey collector and enjoyed every single drop of her Red...
I drank 4 bottles of Macallan Ed. 1I Drank My $100,000 Bottle of Whiskey and I Have No Regrets
Expensive whiskey — like LeNell's Red Hook Rye — can be really hard to find and cost over $100,000. But once you find a rare whiskey, do you drink it or save it to sell? Here's why one writer decided to be a drinker rather than a rare whiskey collector and enjoyed every single drop of her Red...www.foodandwine.com
$100 per and now $3K each.
I saved one and have about 4 of all the other editions so at least there’s that.
"Best" is all relative to what YOU enjoy. We are lucky to have such a wide variety of selections nowadays.
My personal favorite is Pappy 20 year. 15 close behind. Overrated? Perhaps... I wish everyone would just move on so price and availability come back so I can enjoy it again. Seems like everything I have gravitated toward for a daily drinker has become either expensive or difficult. Examples are ECBP, McKenna BiB, Eagle Rare. Even regular Buffalo Trace can be hit or miss near me. Regular Elijah Craig is a good every day-er.
My personal favorite is Pappy 20 year. 15 close behind. Overrated? Perhaps... I wish everyone would just move on so price and availability come back so I can enjoy it again. Seems like everything I have gravitated toward for a daily drinker has become either expensive or difficult. Examples are ECBP, McKenna BiB, Eagle Rare. Even regular Buffalo Trace can be hit or miss near me. Regular Elijah Craig is a good every day-er.
Bump for a great bourbon.I don’t drink much at all but when I do it’s at home so I am not a seasoned connoisseur by any stretch. I had an old bottle of Jack D in the cabinet for probably 10 years. I decided to try something new after reading thru the “what are you drinking right now” thread you mentioned. I tried four roses, bulleit, smoke wagon, Pendleton, Knob Creek & a few others. Those were all OK with Pendleton being the best of the lot to me.
@Maggot had recommend Horse Soldier Bourbon and that stuff is great. Tried all three and my favorite is the Reserve (barrel strength) it has great oak/vanilla flavor with a hint of cinnamon which is fantastic. The Premium (87 proof) is very smooth but not as much flavor. The Signature (95 proof) has much more flavor/body compared to the Premium (87 proof) but not as smooth nor does it match the Reserve (barrel strength) in flavor which again is my favorite. Prices range from $60-$150 a bottle.
It’s hard to find locally so go to their website and do a search under “where to buy.” Depending on what state you are in it‘s possible to buy direct and have it shipped to your home.
Live Legendary – Horse Soldier Bourbon Whiskey
Live legendary with Horse Soldier Bourbon Whiskey by your side, an authentic, all-American, and award-winning bourbon. Visit us today.horsesoldierbourbon.com
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Though no longer a Virginia resident, I agree.
dont pay that for Pappy's It's good but IMHO Horse Soldier is better, and a lot less. or less than $200-250 you can buy a bottle of Cognac that will embarrass most any bourbon. My go to for a great bottle in that range is Pierre Ferrand.
The "Best" bourbon is the one YOU like best, everyone's taste buds/taste are different. I've tried very expensive and cheap bourbons. My go to is Woodford Reserve, along with their different multi aged versions. Personally I love their rye whiskey. Drink what YOU like and enjoy.
Still a VA resident and the gatekepping of booze by the gubmint is bs. I’ve been trying to pick up a bottle of red spot Irish for 2 years and every time it shows as in stock, the stores give me some shit about how they can’t find it, it’s being held for a bar etc.
For the uber expensive stuff the lottery is cool, but the odds are terrible. I’ve been putting in for lotteries for years and finally got selected for a bottle of eh Taylor Bp.
I’ll have to try a bottle of that cognac. I’ve always liked cognac in cocktails like a sidecar, need to try it on its own. This is the way though. There is so much good whiskey out there that’s not nearly as hard to find. Hell you can’t get 30+ year old scotch for what people want for some of these allocated bourbons. I’ve heard good things about horse soldier too, do you have a preferred bottle?
Horse Soldier Premium is my go to but someone a few posts back compared all 3.
If you want to try a good smooth cognac this one is very good though like everything else its gone up in price. A lot.
or this but I prefer the Ferrand slightly
Remy Martin XO Cognac
Rémy Martin XO is the signature of our Cellar Master who with his expertise blends hundreds of eaux-de-vie. The Cellar Master’s art of blending allows us to express the full aromatic complexity of this XO Cognac Fine Champagne.
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That's scotch, and a blended scotch at that.
Smooth but bland and expensive for what it is.
I bet you'd like Monkey Shoulder at $25 a bottle. A lot.
Horse Soldier Premium is my go to but someone a few posts back compared all 3.
If you want to try a good smooth cognac this one is very good though like everything else its gone up in price. A lot.
or this but I prefer the Ferrand slightly
Remy Martin XO Cognac
Rémy Martin XO is the signature of our Cellar Master who with his expertise blends hundreds of eaux-de-vie. The Cellar Master’s art of blending allows us to express the full aromatic complexity of this XO Cognac Fine Champagne.
I was looking around for the Pierre Ferrand last night and the only thing I can find close by is the 1840. I was thinking I’ve had a glass of park cigar before which I believe is an XO and liked it a lot, but was never able to find it for sale in VA.
If you’ve had it do you think the 1840 is good as a sipping cognac or better for just cocktails?
The absolutely worst scotch I ever tried.
Havent tried 1840 but my take is on cognac, if yuor mixing it, go cheap. Fine cognac is to be sipped slowly and savored like a fine rifle or woman, never mixed.
The Virginia ABC will order most anything you want or the next time youre in DC/Maryland (God forbid).
Ah, I see.
EVERYONE can mention scotch but me.....because, you know, it's selective discretion, right ?
BTW, I wouldn't take a suggestion from you even if it was you saying "hey, pick up that $100 bill right there".
Another thing, Buffalo Trace, it's absolute shit.
There was a bottle at the hunting lodge that was on the bar, random few people took a shot, no one took a second.
It's still there, like 7 years later.
Someone could be fucking with you on the BT.
They probably drank it and replaced it with $19.99 IW Harper.
A former GF always talked about expensive wines and how much she loved them.
So, in the name of getting laid, I paid for them for a while.
One day, I got the bright idea to buy one of those $2.99 bottles of Chardonnay from Wally world.
I poured it into an empty $29.00 bottle from the previous week.
Bitch couldn't tell the difference.
I stopped buying the expensive stuff and went back to the pretty decent stuff that at the time sold for about $8.00.
Relax, bud. Who peed in your cheerios this morning?
My post was good intentioned. If you like royal salute at $200+, you'd probably like Monkey shoulder at $25. They're both speyside blends bottled at 40%. Yeah, the RS is a little better, it's just crazy expensive for what it is.
Kind of like the Macallan 25 vs the Glenfarclas 25. The Glenfarclas may not be quite as good depending on your palate, but for 1/10th the price it's worth a try.
I'm all about bang for the back and trying to pass along what I've found. My opinion is worth what you paid for it.
Found a bottle of Widow Jane yesterday and remembered the name from this thread, so I picked it up. I was disappointed to see it’s made in Brooklyn, but damn those New Yorkers actually did a good job on it. Very tasty.
The bottle was opened in front of me and that was when I had my one and only shot of it.
There's a company out of Denver that has the same (basically anyway) logo as BT and they bring a few of the better performers on a hunt every year.
None of them liked it either ?
To be perfectly honest, it tasted more rot gutty than JD to me.....and I don't think Jack Daniels should even be sold it's so nasty.
So did you get laid?Someone could be fucking with you on the BT.
They probably drank it and replaced it with $19.99 IW Harper.
A former GF always talked about expensive wines and how much she loved them.
So, in the name of getting laid, I paid for them for a while.
One day, I got the bright idea to buy one of those $2.99 bottles of Chardonnay from Wally world.
I poured it into an empty $29.00 bottle from the previous week.
Bitch couldn't tell the difference.
I stopped buying the expensive stuff and went back to the pretty decent stuff that at the time sold for about $8.00.
The 1840 is very good and a bit of a sleeper. It is a throw back to when Cognac was the preferred base for a cocktail hence the higher proof.
Among the PF line up it and the Selection Des Anges are my favorites, but the latter is nearing $200 which is more than I'm willing to pay now.
