I shot my 6 Dasher in the range's inaugural ELR match a few weeks ago. Had impacts at 1500 and went 2/5 at 1658. Danced around the 1849 target but never connected. I think I found the limit!
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What 7mm for a mile
- Thread starter Madarcher419
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I shot my 6 Dasher in the range's inaugural ELR match a few weeks ago. Had impacts at 1500 and went 2/5 at 1658. Danced around the 1849 target but never connected. I think I found the limit!
That is indeed awesome. That is proof though, it's all about bullet efficiency coupled with good stability.
As Milo implied the bigger case necessitates increased recoil. Which can be abated by a good brake.
For the record, most of the bigger bullets fly well. The really heavies fly better and longer out of a 1-9" twist.
Milo, would you go into more detail concerning the Snipetac for the fun of it???
Thanks
Oh man, been 6+yrs
Lawton 8000 single shot, So a Cheytac short action, don't think it was cut for top safety, but get this, had a Rem 700 LA bolt pattern, supposedly 13-15 were made
XLR Magnum, with folder, made specifically for this action(think when Kyle was alone and most like only one in existence).
Benchmark 34" Idaho taper, 10tw?
Jewell bottom safety.
NF 8-32 NXS NP-2DD, needed 600 yrd zero with travel limitations.
21.5lbs
At the time, Atlas only decent bipod out, I deemed to small, think the LRA was just coming out, did not buy and shot the gun from a seb rest(had flat plate on forend), more or less shot it free recoil.
Load dev somewhat easy, tried 50Bmg, US 869(Not good), FF with a 250gr Sierra and 50 Bmg
Settled on 142gr of VV 20N29
300 Berger(3250fps and 275 Rocky Mtn(3325fps) at $2.15 a pop
We had ipsc's set at 1350, 1450, 1500, 1600, 1850, 2000, and 2076
With the Berger it was a chip shot to 2K, the extra 75 yards things got way tougher, looking back, a 24" plate instead of 18" wide, my hit pct would have tripled, misses were inches, and also I thought I was that good I could chase the misses, same hold twice woulda worked. The Rocky Mtn bullet was good all the way, no issues.
I had just got laid off, May 2011, no way was I paying 2.15 a bullet, shot the brass(100pcs) six times, just getting CHS, sold the gun that fall. I wish I still had it, but if I did it over, 375 way better option.
I was shooting 2k before it was cool, not that I learned a frigging thing though, lol
Thanks, great story!
Ha, we have similar stories except the 2008 crash majorly screwed up my income for years.
I was wishing I had done 338 Snipetac back when I got my Lawton 8500/ 375CT/NXS 5.5-22x56. No sooner did I get my rifle than the 350 gr solid supply died, ugh, what a let down that was. I shot 260gr Noslers just to shoot the darn rifle and at the same time feeling pretty stupid, lol! A year later the Hooker 350gr solids came along and shortly after the Lehigh 330gr but I was kicking myself for not doing a 338ST for a year.
Bullets and twists were interesting back then. It was fun watching all the gain twist and boutique solid projectile makers argue here in the beyond 1000 forum about who's bullets worked best, lol, remember Noel? I bought a few 400 + grain solids from a member here on the Hide who had ordered a decent quantity from overseas that exhibited tumbling mid air so those became a nice paper weight, or gifts, and always a fun conversation piece.
I didn't fully understand ballistics, Stepped BC's, had a crappy chrono, tracking, etc, back then so I would end up walking shots in most of the time.
Oh, you're lucky, my Jamison brass lasted 3 shots if that. Two Star wasn't much better. Necks to thin on the Bertram to hold a bullet in my setup and the store that sold them to me wouldn't take them back.
Fun times though.
Finally the day came, got a bunch of hits on a 4x4' steel at 2500y on a calm morning.
Ha, we have similar stories except the 2008 crash majorly screwed up my income for years.
I was wishing I had done 338 Snipetac back when I got my Lawton 8500/ 375CT/NXS 5.5-22x56. No sooner did I get my rifle than the 350 gr solid supply died, ugh, what a let down that was. I shot 260gr Noslers just to shoot the darn rifle and at the same time feeling pretty stupid, lol! A year later the Hooker 350gr solids came along and shortly after the Lehigh 330gr but I was kicking myself for not doing a 338ST for a year.
Bullets and twists were interesting back then. It was fun watching all the gain twist and boutique solid projectile makers argue here in the beyond 1000 forum about who's bullets worked best, lol, remember Noel? I bought a few 400 + grain solids from a member here on the Hide who had ordered a decent quantity from overseas that exhibited tumbling mid air so those became a nice paper weight, or gifts, and always a fun conversation piece.
I didn't fully understand ballistics, Stepped BC's, had a crappy chrono, tracking, etc, back then so I would end up walking shots in most of the time.
Oh, you're lucky, my Jamison brass lasted 3 shots if that. Two Star wasn't much better. Necks to thin on the Bertram to hold a bullet in my setup and the store that sold them to me wouldn't take them back.
Fun times though.
Finally the day came, got a bunch of hits on a 4x4' steel at 2500y on a calm morning.
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I do remember Noel, miss a lot of guys that bailed with scout, High Binder, the shank, to name a few, I came here first part of 11", missed the real hey days.lol
I was skeptical of solids, remembering Lawton had Lost River bores, small rifling for lost bore bullets, today it seems moot.
One other thing I did not have was a LRF, had a 2 dollar ziess, hit a pickup at 1k, soft targets at 450, POS
Jamison's going south bad deal for cheytac users for sure.
Edit: Back then, the elr section was a war zone, posts were heavily scrutinized, almost every claim was called out.
That's why ScottyS made a video of Chuck, me, him and Matt all going to a solid mile. With 6.5 Creed and 7mm-08 no less. A few months later he posted another video of he and Chuck going to 2k. Scotty was shooting a 6mm SLR then. And, rang steel consistently.
It would be nice to say we hit steel a lot more than we didn't, but that isn't true. I will say I learned a lot doing it with a 7mm-08. Wind is extremely difficult to gauge. Changing wind was nearly impossible.
It would be nice to say we hit steel a lot more than we didn't, but that isn't true. I will say I learned a lot doing it with a 7mm-08. Wind is extremely difficult to gauge. Changing wind was nearly impossible.
Ya, but concussion starts making things miserable for the spotter and shoter as the case volumes get way north of 100grns of powederJust no free lunch...
You are correct sir. For me personally the nosebleeds I'd come back from the range with were worse than a sore shoulder.
Honestly, I don't understand why you gentlemen are having issues with concussion from the larger cartridges. Perhaps a different design of break would help? I'm shooting everything from a 338LM improved, 375CT & up to a 416 Barrett with no concussion issues whatsoever. The brakes on those guns are all Terminator T-5's (T-4 on the lapua) which send the gases out and around the shooter leaving the operator and spotter behind him in a relatively "concussion free zone" or "envelope" if you will. With two or three of us shooting and rotating to spot for each other, we typically between 4-5 guns go through 60 to 100 rounds depending on the day, all of us exposed to the same thing and no one is having issues whatsoever. Maybe we just lucked out with the choice of brake on those guns I don't know but it might be worth giving one of those a try. I think doubling up on hearing protection helps as well with the boomers, at least maybe with the perception of concussion at least as well as getting the spotter out of the "blast zone" too. The guns are all heavy builds so with the combination of weight and the T brakes, no sore shoulders either. As Milo already noted, a good brake can make a substantial difference in the abatement of recoil. I venture to say the same holds true for brake design in directing concussion & gasses away from the shooter. Some do an excellent job at this, some, not so much....
Fursniper,
I was shooting an AR-30 with their tank style brake. I've got other brakes that don't give that kind of concussion.
I was shooting an AR-30 with their tank style brake. I've got other brakes that don't give that kind of concussion.
I
Ah, makes sense, I've never been a fan of that style of brake. It may be that the huge size of the ports in those tank style brakes combined with way less ports than say a T brake contribute to the massive concussion. Hell, they work great on tanks but who's worried about concussion when you're wrapped up in 10" of armor plate, lol.
Ah, makes sense, I've never been a fan of that style of brake. It may be that the huge size of the ports in those tank style brakes combined with way less ports than say a T brake contribute to the massive concussion. Hell, they work great on tanks but who's worried about concussion when you're wrapped up in 10" of armor plate, lol.
I will say that Armalite brake, especially when clocked and tuned, made recoil a truly minimal thing. One day I held the pistol grip with my thumb, put the top of my middle finger on the side of it and pulled the trigger. The brake took out so much recoil and torque that I shot it that way the rest of the time I owned it.
What I did to mitigate the blast was get a neoprene face mask (dive suit material) and that kept the blast down.
What I did to mitigate the blast was get a neoprene face mask (dive suit material) and that kept the blast down.
I fully agree, a 7mm will always produce less muzzle blast than a 50, of course, the laws of physics still apply. A 7mm has minimal muzzle blast compared to a lot of cartridges! I'm not sure where the conversation appears to have derailed but I was only addressing "issues" when people in this thread started talking about nosebleeds, sore shoulders and how cartridges north of 100 grains starting causing "miserable concussions". My use of the term "issues" was simply a paraphrase for those comments, to encompass those terms with one word. Sorry if you may have took issue (excuse the pun) with that. I was simply disagreeing with what appeared to me to be a possible conclusion by some that sore shoulders, nosebleeds and miserable concussions had to be the inevitable result of cartridges north of 100 grains of powder. Nothing more than that.
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You took it farther than most of us would, wow, for sale sign my solution. Most big guns with good brakes push instead of sharp recoil. A sharp recoiling light gun that gets the trigger guard into my middle(bird) finger doesn't stay long.
The reason I went so long with it was the recoil was so dampened, it was amazing. When you can hold the recoil of a .300 Win mag with your thumb, and the torque with one knuckle on your middle finger, it's hard to give that up.
As to the facemask, you can find them all over up here. I happened on one that didn't have the breathing holes punched in it. So, I nabbed it. It cost like nine or ten bucks. It was hot in the summer and fogged up my shooting glasses in the winter. But, it seriously made shooting that AR-30 a lot more pleasant.
I sidestepped the punishment of recoil by building super heavy rifles.
Usually it's a short walk from the truck to the place where I'll shoot. 375Ct was 34lb all up so mild felt recoil and the old Lawton brake wasn't annoying and concussion wasn't bad. It was an all day shooter if I felt like doing so. A friends 50 was horrible all the way around so I understand what that's like and why I never bought a 50 among other reasons.
30-375R is 24 lbs all up. Talk about mild felt recoil and much less concussion. 225's at 2960 fps does pretty good for ELR but blows in the wind way more than the 375CT did.
Had a 7RM sending 176gr at 3040 fps. I liked the 30 cal for ELR more so I sold the 7. The newer bullets in 28N looks appealing though but wonder about barrel life and how fast the barrel heats up.
Usually it's a short walk from the truck to the place where I'll shoot. 375Ct was 34lb all up so mild felt recoil and the old Lawton brake wasn't annoying and concussion wasn't bad. It was an all day shooter if I felt like doing so. A friends 50 was horrible all the way around so I understand what that's like and why I never bought a 50 among other reasons.
30-375R is 24 lbs all up. Talk about mild felt recoil and much less concussion. 225's at 2960 fps does pretty good for ELR but blows in the wind way more than the 375CT did.
Had a 7RM sending 176gr at 3040 fps. I liked the 30 cal for ELR more so I sold the 7. The newer bullets in 28N looks appealing though but wonder about barrel life and how fast the barrel heats up.
With all of you 7mm shooters here, has anyone had a chance to shoot the 180 ELD-M to distance yet? I am curious about the listed BC and your real world experiences?
FWIW the same things happened to me, I apparently stray clicked dislike on one a pmclaine's posts without realizing or meaning to. If I had to guess, Id say the amount of folks on here who'll click dislike without saying anything is a lot smaller than the amount who dont/wont.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff - AMAX outperforming Flatlines at 2500. Have you played with any Cutting Edge bullets? Those seem to be top of the heap for .375 projectiles..??
What gives you the best performance to a mile-2000yd out of the various .338 projos? What kinda velocities do you get with the solids vs lead-core rounds?
so to throw a new monkey wrench into this conversation over 7mm/30 cal/338, what about shooting in the PRS ELR matches where you have to stay 30 cal and under 3200 fps. do you go with a big 30 and deal with the recoil or go with a 7mm? which one? 300 RUM? 300 Norma? 300 WM? 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, 7mm-300?
This thread is so full of excellent stories and info that I felt compelled to chime in with a thanks to you guys for sharing such great insight. I've spent enough time recreationally shooting 6.5, and 6mm at 1000 yds to know I need to be looking elsewhere for predictability past that. The 7mm and 30's on a .532 or non lapua bolt face are what I'm gunning for to get me to a mile reliably sometime late spring. The caliber choices are all so interesting and I had so many questions about it all.....but this thread got me thinking enough to get me headed in the right direction. Carry on....,.
I personally built a 284 Winchester shooting the 162 grain projectiles at near 3000 fps to do the job... just my preference though
My go to is my 7-300 win with 195 bergers. I can shoot one hole all day with it and it pushes the 195 just a bit over the 3000 mark!
Why does it seem like a 7mmRUM is so slept on as choice. It would seem that it would be a very viable choice. Maybe I need some education, very possible!!
I hate it when I miss a small but important question like this. Yes, I was shooting those last spring out in South Utah. Slightly better performance than the 180 Hybrid, IIRC. This was out to one mile. Of all things, I found the bullets at Dixie Gun & Fish there in St. George.
Big 7s and big .30s are very similar. Lots a bang sometimes it translates into efficient velocity with big pills sometimes it doesn't. I did a 7/338 Norma Mag back 5 or 6 years ago (roughly 105-106 gr. H2O). No big 7mm bullets beyond the 180s, no good powders to choose from, waste of powder and bullets in my opinion at that time. Now, maybe not such a bad idea. sort of the same in big 30s. newer powders and bigger high B.C. pills changed that landscape.
I prefer my 7 WSM and 7 Dakota (7 / 300 Win.Mag. pretty close to same thing) these days in the desert - if I'm not running my .338 L.M. Improved. 180s to 3,000 fps in the WSM and 195s to 3,000-3,1000 fps in the Dakota. 1,900- 2,000 yards supersonic easily reached with both. But Steve123 has seen me haul my 300 Dominator (think 300 norma) to the desert as well to run 230s @ 3,100 fps. It does ok when the dude pulling the trigger is doing his job.
Jeffvn
I prefer my 7 WSM and 7 Dakota (7 / 300 Win.Mag. pretty close to same thing) these days in the desert - if I'm not running my .338 L.M. Improved. 180s to 3,000 fps in the WSM and 195s to 3,000-3,1000 fps in the Dakota. 1,900- 2,000 yards supersonic easily reached with both. But Steve123 has seen me haul my 300 Dominator (think 300 norma) to the desert as well to run 230s @ 3,100 fps. It does ok when the dude pulling the trigger is doing his job.
Jeffvn
Just recently helped a friend put together a 7RemMag for ELR. Savage12 target action, Criterion 8twist @ 30", chambered by criterion but i throated it for the 197smk. We just took it to 1760 this past sunday morning. I am not an elr guy but i think it performed steller! gouping was averaging 1.25-1.5moa. wind was 8-9oclock from 5-9mph.
The problem is barrel life and brass. That RUM has more case capacity than the 7/338 I tested.
Last year was the year of the 7s for me. I built a 7/338 laupa to start with. That gave freakishly low velocity spreads with H50 and 215m. The catch was it worked best at lower pressures that only gave 3100 fps with the 195 hybrids. So I built a 7/338 lapua improved. 195s at 3300, 180 ELDm to 3375 at 10 loading pressures.
The 7/338 improved barrel never did stop increasing in speed. The load had to be adjusted every 50 rounds. 100 yard accuracy was good, but the vertical spread at distance wasn't as good as my 300wm shooting 230 hybrids. Our range has targets from 1200 to 2200 yards. The vertical didn't line up with the velocity differences on my Labradar. Often, slightly slower shots would hit a quarter or half mil high at 2200 yards, or faster ones low. A buddy with a 338 Snipetac was having similar problems.
One weekend, 4 of us were shooting and there were only 2 spotting scopes up. After a string of no calls, the guy without a scope says he thinks the bullets are bursting about 200 yards out. We took turns shooting and watching and agreed it really looked like they were bursting. I went back another day and got it on video. Trace goes out 150-200 yards, then a swirling black donut, then a jacket fluttering down. I retired the barrel at 300 rounds.
Went back to the 7/338 for awhile. It lasted longer, but it was the same pattern. Lot's of giggles at first, discouraging loss of vertical despite very low velocity spreads, the occasional wounded duck bullet, bursts late in the string at 3200 fps, and finally bursts earlier in the string. That one went less than 500 rounds.
I'm testing a 30/338 lapua improved now.
I chamber my own barrels. Setting up for the wildcats isn't really that expensive or time consuming these days. I would be fine with a 300 round barrel life if it's performance was predictable. But it's not, making it hard to turn less elevation in the turret into more hits. Or hits further out. As hunting guns that rarely shot strings of any length, these would be lots of fun. We shoot a KO2M type format with 3-5 shots per target on 4 targets and it's just not working.
My go to ELR gun these days is a 7/300wsm shooting what look like 180 ELDm blems I bought for 15 cents each. If the big calibers won't hold vertical with that, the barrel is done. A mile is no problem and it's still hard to beat at 2200.
And that right there is why I stay with the low power, low speed approach to the problem. It's awesome to have the lazer up and workin' but damn, when they go wrong, they go WRONG. As you noted, rather quickly.
So, in that vein, I often want to wander off in search of a better cartridge. But, I'm still shooting the same 'ol 7mm-08 at pretty reasonable speeds. 44.5 gr of RE-19 behind a 180gr. bullet. I'm getting about 2700 fps with that (26" barrel). Which means I'm losing 300-400 fps. Only, I'm using half the powder. Then again, at that speed I have to call wind a lot better as it's just not the lazer that bigger 7mm's are. No free lunch. I just eat mine a lot slower.
I still think that the 7mm-08 is the best mix of enough power, but still low recoil, and bullet efficiency.
Straight .9 barrel heats up 7mm rem mag dealing with mirage 10 -15 shot string . Start using heat shield for mirage wouldn't mind go to larger capacity than 7mm rem mag dealing with all the heat then less shots during the day. Rather heading me towards less capacity instead. If take my time with 5 shot groups get through 50 rounds
. Start using heat shield for mirage wouldn't mind go to larger capacity than 7mm rem mag dealing with all the heat then less shots during the day. Rather heading me towards less capacity instead. If take my time with 5 shot groups get through 50 roundsGuys,
Hey, that's great info for us all, thanks!
Did you ever try those huge 7's at the low node?
The reason I ask is I was thinking of trying 28N at a lower node to try to get better barrel life but still exceed the 7 Saum ballistics.
The barrel is about gone on my 30-375R with 1600 rounds through it now so I took it off and screwed the 6.5 Saum barrel back on. I was running 225 ELD's at 2935 fps or 230H at 2930 fps and the vertical was good until I was shooting with Jeffvn about 4 months ago when things went horribly wrong on our 2nd day. Do you think I should just stay with 30-375R since I'm already set up for it or go 7mm something?
I'm not in a financial place right now to build a monster 375, etc, or I would try to go that way.
Hi Jeff, that was the smallest ELR steel I've ever shot at, lol! Great people all of you and cool rifles. What a fun day as well....
Steve,
I think it's very much like SID501 said, topping out is the barrel life killer. I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum in only getting 2700 fps, but my barrel life has lasted a long time. So, yes, I think it would do well at least to try a .28 Nolser and load it at the bottom end of the spectrum instead of seeing how close to top out you can get it. Pressure is the number one killer of barrels. Closely followed by volume. You have to decide if you can put up with not having that cutting edge in performance.
For me personally, I would top out at the .280 or .280 AI size (.284 Win is a definite consideration). But, where your rifle is already set up for a magnum, at least try one 7mm barrel and see what it gets you.
I think it's very much like SID501 said, topping out is the barrel life killer. I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum in only getting 2700 fps, but my barrel life has lasted a long time. So, yes, I think it would do well at least to try a .28 Nolser and load it at the bottom end of the spectrum instead of seeing how close to top out you can get it. Pressure is the number one killer of barrels. Closely followed by volume. You have to decide if you can put up with not having that cutting edge in performance.
For me personally, I would top out at the .280 or .280 AI size (.284 Win is a definite consideration). But, where your rifle is already set up for a magnum, at least try one 7mm barrel and see what it gets you.
If you can seat long then you gain some capacity in the SAUM. Currently testing a new barrel and with a 180 ELDM at 3.10” I am getting 3050 FPS with 62.5 gr R26 in a 26” barrel. I think I’m getting 2850-2900 with H1000, have to go back to my notes. R26 is no joke, but it’ll spike a bit in warmer temps, say 85+. Otherwise its been pretty consistent in my 6.5 creed with 147s in mild temps. Going to document it’s temp antics this summer as I have observed it but would be better to record it.
Thank you brother. It really is. Just wish the Timber Companies would stop gating it all up.
I hope shooting with us wasn't the kiss of death for that barrel. No doubt a 15" x 22" steel silhouette is a bit spicy from 1,900, 2,000, 2,100, and 2,200 yards. Bring the "A" Game.
I don't see you getting much better barrel life out of a bigger 7mm (although I'm itching to try 28 Nosler myself - but using the 26 Nosler case for the capacity), than you did your 30-375R. You already have the brass in hand, so you save that investment . For me, the only real difference is recoil, as the big 7s and the big 30 cals tend to be supersonic at my spot out to 2,100 or 2,100 yards - if you run a decent break that factor sort of goes away. I have a 7mm Dakota barrel inbound, so I'm locked into that chambering until that barrel is toast.
Jeffvn
That's pretty much what I was doing with the 7/338LI. I found a really good powder/primer combination with the straight 7/338, but it worked best at low pressure. I upped the case capacity to get back to my original goal of 3300 fps with the 195 Bergers while maintaining that low pressure. Barrel still died a rapid and ugly death.
The 30-375R has a case capacity close to the 30 Nosler? I'd stick with that. You're pretty much at the tipping point of where a little more velocity gets a lot harder on barrels and you'll be able to build on what you learned with the first barrel. Other cartridges in that size range might have brass available that'll take more pressure, but it'll be at the expense of barrel life. How much is hard to estimate, but another 100 fps isn't going to change your shooting experience in the slightest. Another message you might get here is having 1 ELR gun in a barrel eating cartridge isn't going to work. If you want to do that, it needs to be your second gun. Can't afford a second gun? It's the big one you can't afford.
If you don't have a Labradar yet, I suggest that would be a better place to spend money than switching calibers. Record every shot you take. Up your reloading game until every 10+ shot string in the box gives mid single digit SDs. Do your reloading rites of passage with a less expensive cartridge.
After that, our largest gains in hit percentages have come from better spotting not bigger hotter cartridges or the very highest BC bullets. Which brings us to;
I'd make damn sure you don't wear out your welcome with Jeff. Shooting with an experienced group is going to be the fastest and cheapest way forward.
Yeah, and the head was 3-4" of that 22" length, the width being 15", lol. Hey it was a good challenge though the first day. Well, half the fun is shooting with people having the same passion for ELR.
That old barrel had a lot of good memories with it but that day with you guys was it's last good run, had to happen sometime, right?! Years ago I won the only ELR match I've ever shot with it but during that match I connected on the 2356Y plate with the first shot. Ha, I didn't value the win near as much as that farthest plate.
I liked how well my 6x47l did at 1450Y, that was fun!
Boring but I suppose I should stick with 30-375R until I can get into a monster chambering.
Ah, okay I see now, darn and still poor barrel life. Ack, that wouldn't work for me at all.
My load was 79.5 grains of Retumbo behind the 225 so I think it's slightly behind 30N in capacity. The good thing is 375R brass lasts pretty good and isn't overly expensive. Bad is I have to form it.
I remember some occasions when I kept shooting with the barrel being too hot, that was a mistake, also I used it in some normal long range matches with quick 10 shot strings. Next time around I'll be more careful.
