What caliber...

[Snip-er]

I'm somewhat new to rifles (handgun guy), actually pretty green, but I've been doing my research the best I can, so I'm looking for the right caliber to just go have fun at the range or my buddies house. I want to be able to shoot long distance somewhere between 600 and a 1000 yards (my main focus), but still be able to plink as close as 50. I really like and I'm leaning towards the 6.5 creedmore, but I'm also looking for practicality and cost to be able to shoot as much as possible. I would appreciate everyone's input to help me make my decision on a caliber I should go with.

my budget is up to $7-800 for the rifle, but if I can keep it less expensive for a solid shooter that would be great. Thanks everyone, appreciate your time.

 

[stello1001]

A .223 will get you out to 1000 and will force you to learn wind calling. It's not going to be the best "right caliber" but will keep costs down since .223 is cheap. Brownells sells Howa barreled actions and they are priced very fair I would say. If you are dead set on 6.5 creedmoor, it will definitely not be a bad round to start with. There is a lot of good factory ammo that can be purchased just about anywhere if you will not reload. Another good option would be .308 or perhaps even 7-08. Since you mentioned between 600 to 1000, any of these 4 cartridges will be decent options. The .223 will get blown a bit harder in the wind, but it can be done. Good luck.

 

[Snip-er]

Stella, is that .223 the same round that can be shot out of a 223/556 AR 15?

 

[308pirate]

Stella, is that .223 the same round that can be shot out of a 223/556 AR 15?

.223 Remington

 

[Snip-er]

.223 Remington

308Pirate, so that can be shot out of both a bolt action and AR15?

 

[BALLISTIC]

If you have to ask what caliber for your first bolt action, the answer is 308 Win. Though the 6.5 CM is coming up fast, so if you want a little more performance for a little more cost the 6.5 CM seems to be the new off the shelf cartridge.

 

[308pirate]

308Pirate, so that can be shot out of both a bolt action and AR15?

Short answer, yes. No different than shooting .45ACP out of a semi auto and a revolver both chambered for it.

 

[Billl223]

An AR type rifle designed to shoot .308 is generally heavier and much more expensive than one designed to shoot .223 and likely over your budget. An AR-15 shooting mag length cartridges is going to be a struggle over 600 yards. I'd recommend a .308 bolt gun.

 

[davsco]

6.5 creed is a pretty popular longer range round (out to 1000-1200yds). one nice thing about it is there is a decent variety and supply of match grade ammo around a dollar or so a round (<$25/box).

match grade .223 (generally 69g - 77g bullets) is going to be cheaper but not cheap, in the .60 - dollar/round range.

compared to the 6.5creed, .223 is way more susceptible to wind. at 1000yds, 5mph wind drift on a heavy .223 bullet will be some 120" while 6.5 will be 36". so the 6.5 will give you a lot more room for cushion if you're off on your wind estimations. fyi, .308 will be 52"

think about skipping restaurants and bars for a while and save up for a rifle in the $1000-$1500 range if you really want to shoot out to 1k. ruger, savage, tikka, bergara, remington all have decent offerings in that price range. and then you need some $$$$$ for a good scope so you can see those targets way out there.

http://www.basspro.com/shop/en/cent...&pageView:grid&minPrice:&maxPrice:&pageSize:&

 

[eicas]

FWIW, I started with .223 and regretted it. It’s kinda like a 28ga or .410 shotgun... It’s a nifty thing, but not for beginners. My second rifle was a .308 and I learned more from both shooting and loading for that than I did the entire time futzing with the .223. I’m not dumb enough to start a caliber war here, but choose something that has lots of bullet and case options, lots of powder options, and doesnt require the hands of a watchmaker to reload. My .02.

 

[Snip-er]

Eicas, your saying don't go with the. 223 and stsrt with at least the .308?

 

[Snip-er]

By the way, thanks for taking your time to reply. I'm getting the info I need to help make my decision.

 

[spife7980]

You can learn just as much from a 223 as anything else, they all throw bullets down range in the exact same manner. It just has much smaller margins when reloading (proportionally smaller with its size) and its more of a challenge when you get way out there. Since this is your first foray into it I would go with the 6.5 creed. Its ammo is every where and you would be less likely to get discouraged when you cant tell where the 223 is hitting.

For 700-800 its kind of in a weird spot. If 400 was the budget I would say ruger american predator. Sand the barrel channel out a bit to free float it and youll have a shooter. For 900-100 the tikka is a good or the howa hcr will already have a chassis with it.

I know you said that the budget for the rifle is 7-800 but dont forget that a bipod will be nice, a scope base and rings and all of those things cost money, budget 100 for a harris swivel and 50 for a base and 50 for rings at the low end cost wise. The ruger american is where I would go personally if you hadnt considered those other costs. If you had already then work another month and step the budget up to 100 and get the howa hcr. There are a bunch of options and in todays world there arent a whole lot of bad decisions to be made.

 

[308pirate]

You can learn just as much from a 223 as anything else, they all throw bullets down range in the exact same manner. It just has much smaller margins when reloading (proportionally smaller with its size) and its more of a challenge when you get way out there. Since this is your first foray into it I would go with the 6.5 creed. Its ammo is every where and you would be less likely to get discouraged when you cant tell where the 223 is hitting.

For 700-800 its kind of in a weird spot. If 400 was the budget I would say ruger american predator. Sand the barrel channel out a bit to free float it and youll have a shooter. For 900-100 the tikka is a good or the howa hcr will already have a chassis with it.

I know you said that the budget for the rifle is 7-800 but dont forget that a bipod will be nice, a scope base and rings and all of those things cost money, budget 100 for a harris swivel and 50 for a base and 50 for rings at the low end cost wise. The ruger american is where I would go personally if you hadnt considered those other costs. If you had already then work another month and step the budget up to 100 and get the howa hcr. There are a bunch of options and in todays world there arent a whole lot of bad decisions to be made.

I would pay attention to this

 

[steve123]

You can learn just as much from a 223 as anything else, they all throw bullets down range in the exact same manner. It just has much smaller margins when reloading (proportionally smaller with its size) and its more of a challenge when you get way out there. Since this is your first foray into it I would go with the 6.5 creed. Its ammo is every where and you would be less likely to get discouraged when you cant tell where the 223 is hitting.

For 700-800 its kind of in a weird spot. If 400 was the budget I would say ruger american predator. Sand the barrel channel out a bit to free float it and youll have a shooter. For 900-100 the tikka is a good or the howa hcr will already have a chassis with it.

I know you said that the budget for the rifle is 7-800 but dont forget that a bipod will be nice, a scope base and rings and all of those things cost money, budget 100 for a harris swivel and 50 for a base and 50 for rings at the low end cost wise. The ruger american is where I would go personally if you hadnt considered those other costs. If you had already then work another month and step the budget up to 100 and get the howa hcr. There are a bunch of options and in todays world there arent a whole lot of bad decisions to be made.

^^^^

 

[Snip-er]

You can learn just as much from a 223 as anything else, they all throw bullets down range in the exact same manner. It just has much smaller margins when reloading (proportionally smaller with its size) and its more of a challenge when you get way out there. Since this is your first foray into it I would go with the 6.5 creed. Its ammo is every where and you would be less likely to get discouraged when you cant tell where the 223 is hitting.

For 700-800 its kind of in a weird spot. If 400 was the budget I would say ruger american predator. Sand the barrel channel out a bit to free float it and youll have a shooter. For 900-100 the tikka is a good or the howa hcr will already have a chassis with it.

I know you said that the budget for the rifle is 7-800 but dont forget that a bipod will be nice, a scope base and rings and all of those things cost money, budget 100 for a harris swivel and 50 for a base and 50 for rings at the low end cost wise. The ruger american is where I would go personally if you hadnt considered those other costs. If you had already then work another month and step the budget up to 100 and get the howa hcr. There are a bunch of options and in todays world there arent a whole lot of bad decisions to be made.

Spife, that is great info and what I was looking for. I have been leaning towards the 6.5 creedmore the whole time, but I don' want it to be to expensive to go to the range and have some fun. I have been looking at the Ruger Predator from the beginning and I think that'sthe way I'll probably end up going. Yes I will need a scope, bipod, base and rings, it would definitely chew up my budget. I've read really good things about the Predator, so definitely think I will lean that way. You made a lot of sense and I appreciate you taking the time to spell it out for me.

 

[patriot07]

The Howa is a great option, but I'd go with the Tikka CTR 6.5 creedmoor every day and twice on Sunday unless you're just in love with the chassis, which will be an expensive add-on to the Tikka. They can be had for $800 at Whittakers. You have to spend a lot more money to get any more performance. The Tikka will not have a chassis, but it will have a lightweight stock with a vertical grip on it and a threaded barrel and the best fit & finish work on any sub-$2k firearm that I've seen. My Tikka CTR will shoot .5" groups with factory 140 ELD-M all day long (and sometimes better than that). Neither is a bad option though as I've read great accuracy reports on the Howa as well. All that being said, the Howa in camo and tan is a freaking sweet looking rifle.

I started with a 223 hoping to get to 800 with it and I got tiny groups at 100 yards, but the accuracy node on my gun was slow and I couldn't even get to 700. I was frustrated and ended up selling it, and I should have just gone with 6.5 creedmoor from the start. The creedmoor made it to 800 with authority and will easily make it to 1,000 yards, even if you decide to go with a shorter 20" barrel (you can get a 24" also if it's only for range use on both the Howa and Tikka).

 

[stello1001]

I think others are correct in suggesting to keep in mind or account for all the added options such as rings, bipod, etc. When you say 7 to 8 hundred, do you mean just for the rifle itself, or the whole package?

 

[patriot07]

Good point. If you need to be at 700-800 for the whole package, my recommendation would be a Savage 10T or 10FCP-SR. Around $500 with a medium/heavy profile barrel, pretty good trigger, and very good accuracy. Leaves you plenty for a Harris bipod, EGW scope base, rings, etc.

 

[Snip-er]

I think others are correct in suggesting to keep in mind or account for all the added options such as rings, bipod, etc. When you say 7 to 8 hundred, do you mean just for the rifle itself, or the whole package?

Yeah pretty much 7-800 for everything and the less the better. I' not shooting competition or anything, just having fun and wanting to teat my skills compared to 25 years ago in the Infantry! Just all for fun without breaking the bank. I appreciate everyone's time in responding. Ty

 

[stello1001]

Yeah pretty much 7-800 for everything and the less the better. I' not shooting competition or anything, just having fun and wanting to teat my skills compared to 25 years ago in the Infantry! Just all for fun without breaking the bank. I appreciate everyone's time in responding. Ty

I'll be real here. I graduated college not too long ago and got an entry level job afterwards. I could not afford much and ended up going with a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 creedmoor. In my particular rifle, I could never get any factory ammo to shoot well. The accuracy was never consistent. I did many 3 shot groups and all are over an inch. On my twice was I able to stack one round over the other but the third one was way off. Two rounds one hole is the best I ever did but 2 rounds is not a group. Also, the barrel tends to heat up pretty bad. I ended up selling the rifle and saved for a better one. I got a Howa HCR to replace it and now I feel like I should have bought everything right the first time. This is not to discourage you from a Ruger American Predator. For the price, I feel the action is good and it comes with a threaded barrel, which is a good feature. I may have gotten a bad one, but I now feel like I have a real rifle with my Howa.

 

[patriot07]

Stello is giving you good advice about buying something that can do what you want the first time around. I'd avoid any gun with a sporter profile barrel if you're going to be using it at the range primarily. It will heat up faster and give worse accuracy and less shots before the barrel heats up and accuracy degrades even farther.

If you have a "less is better" attitude, then the Savages I suggested would be great options. I picked up a used Savage 10FCP-SR for $350 last year. I have a buddy who shoots Savages exclusively and I haven't seen one in 6.5 yet that would shoot over 1" at 100 yards with 140 ELD-M. My old Savage 11VT in 308 would pack FGMM into one hole at 100 yards.

If you don't care about the chassis, then the Tikka CTR is just a fantastic option for $800. It comes with a rail, so it's like getting the gun for $750. If you do like the chassis, I'd go with the Howa.

Edit to add: my buddy also just picked up a Savage Axis XP in 6.5 creedmoor with a heavy barrel from wal mart for $389. It shoots sub-MOA with 140 ELD-M as well.

 

[Snip-er]

I'll be real here. I graduated college not too long ago and got an entry level job afterwards. I could not afford much and ended up going with a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 creedmoor. In my particular rifle, I could never get any factory ammo to shoot well. The accuracy was never consistent. I did many 3 shot groups and all are over an inch. On my twice was I able to stack one round over the other but the third one was way off. Two rounds one hole is the best I ever did but 2 rounds is not a group. Also, the barrel tends to heat up pretty bad. I ended up selling the rifle and saved for a better one. I got a Howa HCR to replace it and now I feel like I should have bought everything right the first time. This is not to discourage you from a Ruger American Predator. For the price, I feel the action is good and it comes with a threaded barrel, which is a good feature. I may have gotten a bad one, but I now feel like I have a real rifle with my Howa.

Great point, and I've been thinking that was as well. I guess I'm gonna have to figure out which way to go. Thanks for your input. Good advice.

 

[Snip-er]

So let me ask this, if I have only a certain budget to get one or the other right now, should I get the rifle I want and get a lesser optics and get that later when I can afford it or vice versa?

 

[TheBigCountry]

So let me ask this, if I have only a certain budget to get one or the other right now, should I get the rifle I want and get a lesser optics and get that later when I can afford it or vice versa?

My two cent speech: Save a little harder and watch the PX here for a gently used Tikka CTR, or even Varmint, as well as a SWFA SS fixed power and whatever else you will need.

 

[patriot07]

So let me ask this, if I have only a certain budget to get one or the other right now, should I get the rifle I want and get a lesser optics and get that later when I can afford it or vice versa?

Unfortunately you just missed black Friday sales on SWFA fixed power scopes. You could have had a scope & rings for $260. Add in $800 from Whittakers for a Tikka CTR with a rail and you're at $1060 for the whole setup.

I'd keep an eye out for a used CTR and scope as ajv35XX suggests. You always get more for your money used. But Tikka hasn't been importing the 6.5 Creedmoor CTRs very long, so you won't find them used too often. I'd go to Whittaker's and hit the "notify me" button on those listings so they'll send you an email when they get them back in stock.

Howa Chassis rifle has only been out for a year or so IIRC, so there aren't a ton of those on the used market either. But you can definitely save a bunch on an optic buying used. Something like a Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 might be a good solution in the $500 range.

 

[stello1001]

Like I said previously, I don' want to discourage you from a Ruger American Predator. Especially if that's all you can afford and if you wont be able to save more for "a better rifle" or possibly accessories. Only you know your current financial situation. With that being said, if you do want to, you can purchase the ruger for like $400 and that'll leave some money for glass. It won't be the best rifle ever built, but it will get you out shooting. Saving money and waiting is not fun, shooting is. As far as optics, you can look at primary arms for a 4-14 scope or try Athlon. Athlon has decent options with very affordable prices. You don't need an Atlas bipod to start out. I bought a TipTop brand from Amazon to give as a gift for my bro in law. His rifle is just a budget hunting rifle so top notch quality bipod was not needed. Plus, it works just fine. You can look for used rings or maybe optics here and maybe get lucky on a great deal.

 

[stello1001]

By the way, this is how my Ruger used to look when I owned it. In the pic, it is wearing my bro's bipod that I mentioned and his sling.

 

[hlee]

So let me ask this, if I have only a certain budget to get one or the other right now, should I get the rifle I want and get a lesser optics and get that later when I can afford it or vice versa?

If you don't have the cash to buy what you really want, stash that cash and wait. You'll spend more money by skimping than you will by waiting. And, as you really don't seem to know what you want, waiting and saving will give you more time to research and learn. While you may be able to sell an expensive optic to recoup the cost, low end gear will be a 'sunk cost' that you won't likely get back.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

6.5 Creedmoor.

Does that budget include glass and mount?

 

[Snip-er]

Like I said previously, I don' want to discourage you from a Ruger American Predator. Especially if that's all you can afford and if you wont be able to save more for "a better rifle" or possibly accessories. Only you know your current financial situation. With that being said, if you do want to, you can purchase the ruger for like $400 and that'll leave some money for glass. It won't be the best rifle ever built, but it will get you out shooting. Saving money and waiting is not fun, shooting is. As far as optics, you can look at primary arms for a 4-14 scope or try Athlon. Athlon has decent options with very affordable prices. You don't need an Atlas bipod to start out. I bought a TipTop brand from Amazon to give as a gift for my bro in law. His rifle is just a budget hunting rifle so top notch quality bipod was not needed. Plus, it works just fine. You can look for used rings or maybe optics here and maybe get lucky on a great deal.

Perfect! Thanks for the advice. I have to really sit down n't figure out how I want to go about this, but I'm getting the results from everyone I was looking for by doing this post, so thank you to all of you. Appreciate it.

 

[Snip-er]

By the way, this is how my Ruger used to look when I owned it. In the pic, it is wearing my bro's bipod that I mentioned and his sling.

So why did you sell it?

 

[Snip-er]

6.5 Creedmoor.

Does that budget include glass and mount?

Yes, unfortunately.

 

[rookie7]

If $800 is top of budget = Ruger American Predator in 6.5cm, SWFA 10x, Vortex budget rings or something similar, Harris bipod, cheap muzzle brake off of Ebay

If you can wait and add to the budget a little - Howa 1500 barreled action from Brownell's in 6.5cm either 24" or 26" flavor - threaded. Order a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock. Same scope setup.

JMO.

 

[6.5 Cravemoor]

Cant go wrong with either a 6.5 creed or .308. The 308 ammo will be slightly cheaper if your looking to stay under a certain budget. 6.5 ammo will start to come down over time as more options are becoming more available everyday

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I answer this question and others very much like it quite often.

To get the chambering choice out of the way, i prefer .223, and suggest the 5.56 NATO chamber, since it allows for the greatest variety in ammunition that will be safe in the rifle. Shooting 5.56 NATO ammunition in a .223 chamber can result in excessive pressures, going the opposite way minimizes the consequences of a mismatch, and while it can also be a small accuracy tradeoff, that's not going to be as high a priority this early in your shooting career. It' unrealistic to make decisions demanding ultimate performance until such time as your own skills warrant such equipment perfection.

I've done a lot of homework regarding how to get a good set of equipment into the hands of the beginner, and there are some excellent deals out there if you do the looking. Over the past several years, I've arrived at a package that maximizes performance at a minimum cost. There are much better rifles, etc. available, but the components I'm recommending have stood up and performed well and reliably, yet don't carry a premium price tag.

First, the rifle. It needs to be good enough that it's not the limiting factor in your performance. I own an identical pair of Savage 11VT Varmint/Target rifles, one chambered in 223/5.56, and the other in .308.. They are a limited-distributor edition, proprietary to Dick's Sporting Goods/Field and Stream stores, and currently list at $449 including a mounted 4-12x scope. The scope is good enough for starting out but should be removed for use on a hunting rifler and replaced with something that is more suited as soon as possible.

My choice for the replacement scope is the Mueller 8-32x44 Target Dot Scope, which lists for $259.99, but performs like something costing a lot more. I've been shooting my first one in competition and load development for going on a decade, and currently have three mounted and in use. Best mount/rings so far for the 11VT are the Weaver extended multi-slot base 20MOA for Savage Short Action, and Vortex 6 screw tactical 30mm Medium Height scope rings, which are an excellent combination of good performance at a good price.

Completing the upgrade would be a competent, robust stock, and I have the Choate Tactical Stock in each of my 11VTs.

Starting with just the rifle is a feasible approach, and upgrading as means allow is a good plan.

Finally, folks are speaking highly of IMI 77gr Razor Core ammunition for longer range. It suits the Savage's 24" length. 1:8"twist barrel. and can help with Long Range wind training until you can get started at making your own ammunition.

This approach respects your limited budget, while presenting an improvement path that provides better performance for a reasonable outlay.

Greg Langelius

 

[stello1001]

So why did you sell it?

Barrel heated up fast, the accuracy was not very consistent.

 

[steve123]

Just thought I'd mention this, ANY firearm brands inexpensive rifles can shoot well or not, it's a gamble. You might get one that shoots 1/2 moa which would be rare, one that shoots around 1 moa which would be normal, or one that shoots like crap.

That's why those passionate about long range spend more money on higher quality gear, to ensure a higher degree of success when doing so.

It really is a good idea to save and buy an action platform that is better quality and a good foundation to build off of later on if you decide that's what you want to do.

^^^ but if spending more money is absolutely out of the question...

I like the RAP for what it is in stock form but I personally wouldn't be putting a bunch of money into it. At least it feeds and ejects well or at least the ones I've been around did. The loss is small if you buy one of these and go to resell later. I've seen them on sale for as low as $369. You'd only lose $50 or so on resale??? I've sighted in two for friends, they were 1 moa with cheap factory ammo and that sure surprised me. I owned on in 300BO, I just wanted to try the cartridge in a bolt rifle. After I messed with it for a while I sold it.

The HOWA I would put money into. It seems higher quality than the RAP and there are more aftermarket options.

• Forged flat-bottom receiver with integral recoil lug are the main reasons I like it, I'm considering getting one in 6.5 Grendel to play with, which BTW might be a consideration for you.

I haven't had good luck with Savage so I'll leave that well enough alone, poor quality, feeding problems, ejection problems, etc. Others have had good experiences, so there's that. It does offer different bolt heads to work with different cartridge cases, prefit barrels are available, and the floating bolt head is a very good idea.

Rem M700's have been good for me and they were "the" popular action to build off of for many years.

Tikka, although slightly out of your budget, has gained tons of traction in recent years. Likely the smoothest normal priced action there is and it seems very well made. Although, a friend bought two, one for himself and one for his son. Let's just say his son got the good one as far as accuracy is concerned - refer to my first paragraph.

Another thing, the old standard 7-08 is a very good long range cartridge. 30-06, 280Rem, 270, 25-06, 6.5x55, 260 Rem and other similar cartridges can get you by out to 1000Y. Put a brake on or buy a PAST recoil shield. Heck you might be able to borrow a rifle while saving.

What I did was spend extra money on a used rifle, at the time "back then" - I charged some of the money on the CC, and bought a used custom rifle. That rifle probably cost $3500 new, I got it for $1900. I used it 7 years and sold it for hardly a loss. That's a decision I'm glad I made! Then after the sale of it I bought some very high end gear.

 

[eicas]

There’s some good advice for you here I think. My comment was just a general one. I chose .308 because I figured there was a ton of info out there available on it to help me get started. The gun I got was a Remington 700 5R Milspec. knowing what I know now, I might have done that differently too, but I got a good one that has shot very well. As others have stated above, a .223 is more suceptable to wind, gives less feedback (on paper and steel) with hits, and although “reloading” is “reloading”...having something with both larger case capacity (as well as physical size) just makes the entire experience go smoother. Like I said, I started with .223, regretted it, and honestly have not shot or reloaded for that caliber since. I’m enjoying what I got too much.

The whole process is more of a continuing learning curve than a “plug and play” kind of thing. Sometimes I think that some of the other shooting sports (such as handguns) try to rub off on this end unsuccessfully. Ive always viewed this type of rifle shooting more like chemestry and physics than an IDPA match. Whichever gun/caliber you pick, try to get something with a varmint or heavier barrel on it. Then just take it slow and expect to spend LOTS of money as your skill improves...lol

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Answering your question about rifles vs top optics first, the answer does not need to be a cheap vs good selection. The options I have provided can stand on their own without requiring serious improvement until well down the road, when your skills become far more highly competitive. The important point here is that choices can be made that allow the new shooter to get to the task with a minimum delay.

I have competed on local and national levels with my 11VT out to distances of 600yd, equipped exactly as described above, and the combination will stand up to a good part of the competition and still remain competitive.

My 1000yd competition rifle is going on 18 years old, a 2000 Savage 10FP with a custom Lothar-Walther 28" Barrel chambered in .260 Remington. That same barrel could be removed from the 10FP and remounted directly to the 11VT .308.

Greg

 

[308pirate]

On the subject of 223 Remington vs 5.56 NATO chambers, there is much hype and tribal knowledge being passed as fact.

This well done test article should provide some perspective: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

Suffice it to say that much of the internet "common knowledge" surrounding this topic is either exaggeration or downright wrong.

I don't care to debate the subject. Everyone is free to read the test/article linked to and draw their own conclusions.

 

[308pirate]

I also disagree with those who say that 223 Remington is not a desirable first cartridge for mid range (out to 600 yards) shooting. With correct ammo and bullet selection, it is more than capable.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

308Pirate, I think you for your commentary but you confuse me. Since I am the only one in this thread to make any mention of the differences between 5.56 and 223 chambers and ammunition, it appears that you intended to refute my comment, "I prefer .223, and suggest the 5.56 NATO chamber, since it allows for the greatest variety in ammunition that will be safe in the rifle. Shooting 5.56 NATO ammunition in a .223 chamber can result in excessive pressures, going the opposite way minimizes the consequences of a mismatch", citing an excellent but long article beginning with

"If you’re unfamiliar with the differences between .223 and 5.56, you should understand the following basic facts:

• The exterior (physical) dimensions of .223 and 5.56 ammunition are effectively identical.
• 5.56 ammunition may be loaded to higher pressures than .223 ammunition.
• 5.56mm chambers are dimensionally larger in certain critical areas than .223 chambers.
• Given the same ammunition, 5.56 chambers will have lower pressures than .223 chambers."

Perhaps you could explain how this article's most basic and initial basic premise disagrees with my statement, rendering it as "much hype and tribal knowledge being passed as fact" and "either exaggeration or downright wrong".

I consider your unsolicited accusation as an ad-hominem attack, and suggest that your userid be assigned a 30 day ban on grounds of personal abuse.

Greg

 

[spife7980]

I consider your unsolicited accusation as an ad-hominem attack, and suggest that your userid be assigned a 30 day ban on grounds of personal abuse.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/yLvBWmi.gif"}[/IMG2]

And in a factory long necked bolt action the differences arent enough to be concerned about.

And none of this is applicable because a factory 223 with shelf ammo isnt going to get him to 1k anyways.

 

[steve123]

Most of us love our 223's! but OP, you need to know some things about them.

223 provides tons of fun out to 675Y for me, just because that's the farthest I usually shoot with it. 70's at 2600 fps out of a short barrel, that's a .28 G1 BC. Past that distance can get a bit frustrating in the "wind" and it isn't easy to see where I miss off of the steel. How often is it not windy is the main question????

There's a lot to said about barrel length. Somewhere on the internet a guy cut off his 223 barrel every 1-2 inches and recorded the loss in velocity each time. IIRC it's about 23 fps per inch average??? A longer barrel gives more velocity. The more the FPS with a given BC the less a bullet blows in the wind.

The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is a biggy. Common BC's for 224 cal are in the .28 to .45 region, which is on the low side of BC's, except for the 90 grain bullets. 6mm is .5 to .62BC, 6.5 is .55 to .7BC, 7mm is .62 to .78 BC.

Velocity isn't everything, like with a 223 using 40 grain bullets, the BC of the bullet is very low so even though they can be driven to nearly 4000 fps the bullet sheds velocity really quick and blows in the wind a lot. Only good for out to 300Y or so on varmints which is what they were designed for. 223 with 40-60 grainers at normal OACL of 2.230 don't do the best in the wind at longer distances. Their fine for medium distances.

There's 223 with 69 through 77 grain bullets at the previous mentioned length, which is better in the wind at the longer distances. Making even more sense with bullets seated farther out enabling the option of putting more powder in thus gaining more fps. These are better for medium distances and out to 800Y. Again, it can get hard to see misses and these blow quite a bit more in the wind than the 6mm's, 6.5's, etc.

Then there's 223 with 80's to 90 grain bullets that have a fairly high ballistic efficient, these are usually seated out to lengths of 2.5" or more, and can be driven to reasonable velocity out of longer barrels. These are getting close in ballistics and in the wind compared to the common 6mm's, 6.5's, etc, but are still far enough behind them that I never built one and I think are a handload proposition only option.

What some aren't mentioning is that 223 is often shot against 308 in competitions like FTR or military style comps Neither do as good as the 6's, 6.5's or 7's in the wind so they are heaped together.

What I see often is a guy will show up with his 223 or 308 to shoot against guys with 6mm's, 6.5's, etc. If it's windy their hit percentage goes down hill fast, especially at the farther steel.

For 600y to 1000Y there's better choices than 223...

 

[308pirate]

308Pirate, I think you for your commentary but you confuse me. Since I am the only one in this thread to make any mention of the differences between 5.56 and 223 chambers and ammunition, it appears that you intended to refute my comment, "I prefer .223, and suggest the 5.56 NATO chamber, since it allows for the greatest variety in ammunition that will be safe in the rifle. Shooting 5.56 NATO ammunition in a .223 chamber can result in excessive pressures, going the opposite way minimizes the consequences of a mismatch", citing an excellent but long article beginning with

"If you’re unfamiliar with the differences between .223 and 5.56, you should understand the following basic facts:

• The exterior (physical) dimensions of .223 and 5.56 ammunition are effectively identical.
• 5.56 ammunition may be loaded to higher pressures than .223 ammunition.
• 5.56mm chambers are dimensionally larger in certain critical areas than .223 chambers.
• Given the same ammunition, 5.56 chambers will have lower pressures than .223 chambers."

Perhaps you could explain how this article's most basic and initial basic premise disagrees with my statement, rendering it as "much hype and tribal knowledge being passed as fact" and "either exaggeration or downright wrong".

I consider your unsolicited accusation as an ad-hominem attack, and suggest that your userid be assigned a 30 day ban on grounds of personal abuse.

Greg

I don't intend to refute or prove your comment. I couldn't care less what you believe is fact or fiction surrounding this topic.

The post was made to give a shooter, new to rifles, factual verifiable information regarding the subject of 223 Remington chambers.

If you wish to learn something, you will read the whole thing and not just stop at the introduction.

 

[patriot07]

Most of us love our 223's! but OP, you need to know some things about them.

223 provides tons of fun out to 675Y for me, just because that's the farthest I usually shoot with it. 70's at 2600 fps out of a short barrel, that's a .28 G1 BC. Past that distance can get a bit frustrating in the "wind" and it isn't easy to see where I miss off of the steel. How often is it not windy is the main question????

There's a lot to said about barrel length. Somewhere on the internet a guy cut off his 223 barrel every 1-2 inches and recorded the loss in velocity each time. IIRC it's about 23 fps per inch average??? A longer barrel gives more velocity. The more the FPS with a given BC the less a bullet blows in the wind.

The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is a biggy. Common BC's for 224 cal are in the .28 to .45 region, which is on the low side of BC's, except for the 90 grain bullets. 6mm is .5 to .62BC, 6.5 is .55 to .7BC, 7mm is .62 to .78 BC.

Velocity isn't everything, like with a 223 using 40 grain bullets, the BC of the bullet is very low so even though they can be driven to nearly 4000 fps the bullet sheds velocity really quick and blows in the wind a lot. Only good for out to 300Y or so on varmints which is what they were designed for. 223 with 40-60 grainers at normal OACL of 2.230 don't do the best in the wind at longer distances. Their fine for medium distances.

There's 223 with 69 through 77 grain bullets at the previous mentioned length, which is better in the wind at the longer distances. Making even more sense with bullets seated farther out enabling the option of putting more powder in thus gaining more fps. These are better for medium distances and out to 800Y. Again, it can get hard to see misses and these blow quite a bit more in the wind than the 6mm's, 6.5's, etc.

Then there's 223 with 80's to 90 grain bullets that have a fairly high ballistic efficient, these are usually seated out to lengths of 2.5" or more, and can be driven to reasonable velocity out of longer barrels. These are getting close in ballistics and in the wind compared to the common 6mm's, 6.5's, etc, but are still far enough behind them that I never built one and I think are a handload proposition only option.

What some aren't mentioning is that 223 is often shot against 308 in competitions like FTR or military style comps Neither do as good as the 6's, 6.5's or 7's in the wind so they are heaped together.

What I see often is a guy will show up with his 223 or 308 to shoot against guys with 6mm's, 6.5's, etc. If it's windy their hit percentage goes down hill fast, especially at the farther steel.

For 600y to 1000Y there's better choices than 223...

I spent 18 months and a bunch of money on loading, rifles, bullets, brass, powder, loading equipment, etc. to figure out exactly what Steve said. Within 600 yards and only for target shooting, the 223 is adequate (assuming you're not trying to spin big steel targets or anything like that, which 223 isn't powerful enough to do). It helps you learn to call wind and such, but it's just not the best choice for 600+ yards. You have to hot-rod the loads via handloading and use super-heavy bullets seated to long OALs, which forces you to load by hand since most 223 magazines won't accept them.

Or you can get a 6.5 creedmoor, buy a box of factory 140 ELD-M and hit out to 1,000 yards in no time.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I agree, the .223 has some sauce, and the larger diameter bullets carry more of it further. But it's also more economical to shoot, and IMHO, it's at least as good a place to start when getting into handloading.

But those facets might be somewhat premature to this discussion.

The OP wants a place to start, not a place to win. I've been at this stuff a long time, and as I look back, I can see more direct paths to satisfaction than I have personally taken, and I think that experience has a valid place in the conversation. Snip-er is asking for a good chambering to start out with having fun.

I vote 223.

Greg

 

[308pirate]

Some other factors to consider

Typical 308 Winchester barrel life: 5000 - 8000 rounds

Typical 223 Remington barrel life: 3500 - 5000 rounds

Typical 6.5 Creedmoor barrel life: 1500 - 2500 rounds

6 mm cartridges, even less barrel life.

A new shooter needs trigger time. Lots of it. Trigger time at shorter distances to refine positions without the confusing influence of the wind and trigger time at longer distances to learn how to shoot in winds. You need lots more trigger time to learn the wind than to learn positions.

6.5 and 6 mm cartridges are more forgiving in the wind beyond 600 yards, and they can turn a miss into an edge hit for minor wind reading mistakes. But they typically cannot overcome the major wind reading mistakes that newer shooters tend to make. I've got enough trigger time behind a 260 Rem shooting Lapua Scenar 139s to know.

6.5 and 6 mm cartridges do recoil less than larger bore sizes, for sure.

 

[Xander3Zero]

To the OP: As a relatively new shooter myself (started out shooting Rem 700 308, newest rifle is a custom 223) I have to say that the 223 is alot of fun. I've been shooting federal gold medal 77s to fireform brass, and I am getting very excited to start reloading for it. There is a large bullet selection to choose from, and a lot of powders that work well with 223. I will be happy to be using about half the powder that I normally use in my 308 loads, and the 223 bullets are cheaper as well.

Also, shooting 223 is pure joy. The recoil seems like 1/5th of the recoil of my unbraked 308. If you really plan to do most of your shooting between 600-1000 yards, then maybe 223 isn't the best choice, but I do think you will have alot of fun working on your fundamentals and reloads to MAXIMIZE the potential of your 223. What I mean is that I think you will find joy from developing your skills and reloads to try and keep pushing the limits of the 223.