Range Report What changes after 700 yards...?

[DownhillFromHere]

With decent rifle and ammo (bolt-action 6.5CM) and ability to maintain consistent on-POA hits out to 600 yards, why am I finding it far harder to get consistent hits on 2-MOA targets at 800-1000 yards?

Most of my shooting is 550 yards or closer. With bipod in front and Gamechanger bag in the rear, I can shoot consistent sub-half-MOA groups at 100 and 1-MOA at 550 (actually 540 for those of you who know Woody's in central NC). My worst handloads have shown ES in the 20s and SD around 10; the best are single-digit ES/SD.

I also have membership at Frontline, where I can shoot to 1000 yards. I don't get up there very often because it's way closer to go to Woody's, which is 20 minutes from my house so I'm there two or three times a week.

So I drove up to Frontline today to meet a couple of friends. We had the 1000-yard deck to ourselves all day. Sunny, light wind, moderate mirage.

Bottom line: out to 600 yards, I get consistent center hits on 2-MOA targets. But at 800-1000 yards, I'm not getting consistent hits anywhere. Not just today but every time I've tried 800-1000 yards. Right, left, high, low. Fire a round, see the impact, correct, next round seems overcorrected - or no change.

Maybe this belongs in the "Stupid Questions" forum, but I'll ask anyway... if I can maintain 1-MOA groups or better at 500, why am I having such difficulty at 1.5-2x that range? Wind was light today and there are plenty of wind flags. Mirage was moderate but nowhere near as bad as it often is at Frontline. At 1000 yards, spin drift and Coriolis combined are far less than the "spread" i get. Do technique errors multiply at the longer ranges? Mirage?

Any thoughts as to what I need to check or work on are appreciated.

 

[TomH Tx]

I wish I had a specific solution. I seem to have the same problem some days, and would like to follow the thread to see what advice you get if you don't mind please. I have attributed it to shifting and/or multiple wind that either changed or that I did not read correctly, an unintended and seemingly imperceptible change in my position, inconsistencies in store bought ammo, changes in planetary alignment, or whatever other excuse I can conjure up at the time. Any of those sound familiar?

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

Some bullets can loose stability well above transonic. I had some unnamed 165 grain bullets do this to me in a 1000 yard BR match. Two other shooters said they had read that the bullet I was using was known to have that problem beyond 600 yards. I fixed the problem by changing over to 175 grain SMKs and never looked back.

 

[ballistic64]

With decent rifle and ammo (bolt-action 6.5CM) and ability to maintain consistent on-POA hits out to 600 yards, why am I finding it far harder to get consistent hits on 2-MOA targets at 800-1000 yards?

Most of my shooting is 550 yards or closer. With bipod in front and Gamechanger bag in the rear, I can shoot consistent sub-half-MOA groups at 100 and 1-MOA at 550 (actually 540 for those of you who know Woody's in central NC). My worst handloads have shown ES in the 20s and SD around 10; the best are single-digit ES/SD.

I also have membership at Frontline, where I can shoot to 1000 yards. I don't get up there very often because it's way closer to go to Woody's, which is 20 minutes from my house so I'm there two or three times a week.

So I drove up to Frontline today to meet a couple of friends. We had the 1000-yard deck to ourselves all day. Sunny, light wind, moderate mirage.

Bottom line: out to 600 yards, I get consistent center hits on 2-MOA targets. But at 800-1000 yards, I'm not getting consistent hits anywhere. Not just today but every time I've tried 800-1000 yards. Right, left, high, low. Fire a round, see the impact, correct, next round seems overcorrected - or no change.

Maybe this belongs in the "Stupid Questions" forum, but I'll ask anyway... if I can maintain 1-MOA groups or better at 500, why am I having such difficulty at 1.5-2x that range? Wind was light today and there are plenty of wind flags. Mirage was moderate but nowhere near as bad as it often is at Frontline. At 1000 yards, spin drift and Coriolis combined are far less than the "spread" i get. Do technique errors multiply at the longer ranges? Mirage?

Any thoughts as to what I need to check or work on are appreciated.

First thing I would try is to have another shooter try your gun at those ranges.

 

[j-huskey]

? Barrel length
? Barrel twist
? Bullet
? Velocity at muzzle

Could be the velocity is slow enough, the rotational velocity isnt there due to both twist rate and speed, and the known b.c. drop cant be accurately calculated, and the bullet just wont fly at that combination of all that, at those distances.

I have a 8 twist 26" 223, that seems to be closer to a 9, and slow, that does the same kind of thing.

And, I have a 7.7 twist 26" 223 that seems dead on 7.7 and fast, and it shoots the same lot of ammo to 1100 yards very well.

And I have a 7.7 twist 22" 223 that (see above) and it shoots the same ammo to 1000 yards very well.

The bullet is an 80 grain Berger vld from a 15 year old lot, the powder is VihtaVouri n550, and the loads are exactly the same.
The chambers are cut with the same reamer by the same smith and throated identically. (Its my reamer that stays with me, not the smith.)

8 twist 26" runs 2825
7.7-26 runs 2950
7.7-22 runs 2875

Potentially you could have a similar situation.

With no more information than you have given, it's very difficult to tell.

And, I run 6.5's enough to know it's very possible.

Best to you.

 

[tnichols]

A lot of good theories above. A bit more information would help too. I might add that shooting at distance is not linear, it’s exponential. As the range increases, every little thing comes into play. Wind calls that were a touch off at 500 but resulted in impact will not be as forgiving at 800. Sound fundamentals, accurate data into the calc, wind calls, etc... all add up to impacts at longer ranges vs a miss because of tolerance stacking.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Way too many variables to diagnose the problem online.

Here’s the steps I would take:

If not shooting factory ammo, get some hornady 140 or 147 eldm. Sure, you can handload better, but we are looking to narrow down the problem. So we need to rule out as much as possible, as fast as possible. Get a factory load that shoots well in your rifle. The hornady has a reputation for running well enough to be consistent at 1k.

Set up a target at 1k it whatever yardage is past your “fuck up” range. Make sure it’s large enough for a central aiming point and to catch shots the wind blows off. Cardboard behind steel plate is good for this.

Now, just hold the exact same spot every time. Who cares about wind at this point. We are making sure the rifle and shooter can hold 1-2 moa or less. Shot 5/10/20, however many shots. Try to shoot them fast or at least in as close to the same wind/environment.

Now, check your group, wherever it’s at on the cardboard. If it’s under the size you feel is acceptable, then you know it’s you. Something in your fundamentals is flawed and needs fixing. Get help or instruction. Wind calls are bad.....etc. something is wrong with shooter.

If it does not perform up to you standard, find another shooter or two you know are capable and have them run the exact same test.

If the gun does not group under the desired level of accuracy, then you start looking for looks bolts, bad bedding, loose optic, etc. if you can’t find anything, trash barrel and get a new one.

If the rifle does group as expected, again, back to shooter problems you’ll need to diagnose.

If you’re using handloads and the gun performs with factory loads, then you’ll need to diagnose your loading problems.

With today’s quality of 6cm and 6.5cm factory ammo, you can use it for a baseline for the distances we shout for PRS.

The above steps should get you into the ballpark of where your problem is. Once you know where it is in a general sense, you can further diagnose that issue. Be it shooter, gun, or ammo.

 

[b6graham]

Technique
Wind

 

[davsco]

i'm thinking wind

 

[sandwarrior]

Take this as a learning experience instead of a day of frustration. Meaning instead of getting wound up because you don't get a good hit, move your mindset to "what happened here". Not just "what went wrong". Mentally think first about your wind call, where you placed the reticle at the shot, and why. Can you visualize where that reticle was when you squeezed the trigger. Were you stable? Or, fighting to hold a position?

Point is, you need to have your evaluator out and working to get an idea of what's going on. So that you can improve upon your shooting. Coming back after the fact here and asking what happened is much less effective than you being able to diagnose what's going on at the range that day and being able to make your own adjustments.

As noted above some good instruction is a huge boon. We can talk about things here. But, out there, you have someone who's seen it and can tie in the physical reality to what you know on paper. Hopefully getting you closer to being able to make a solid evaluation of the conditions for yourself.

The biggest factors for being off that I see are:
Wind...and changes
Shooting form. Straight back behind the gun. I know many learned the "offset", but you control recoil so much better when straight back.
Light...and changes
Mirage

So, before every shot, make a mental note to remember all the calls you made. A logbook here is extremely helpful. Then see by just making the adjustments back to center and try and see what you didn't see before.

 

[RTH1800]

Accuracy begins at 600 yards.

 

[wigwamitus]

Wind is very non-linear beyond 600yds ...

So I'd put wind at the top of my list.

 

[NukeMMC]

It's all about energy.
By the time your 6.5cm has passed 600yds, it has gone from a MV of 2750fps to 1975 or so, a drop of almost 30% of velocity, which is directly proportional to momentum. Any wind downrange must be accounted for also, not just on the line. You probably dont have a Kestrel between the mid-range and the target, so you have to dope mirage, veg, range flags, etc. Compare the downrange conditions to the conditions at the muzzle and figure which has the bigger impact on your shot. Remember that your mid-range trajectory for a 600yd target is over 6ft higher than the bore. Depending on your location, that may be different air than either the firing line or target.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thanks for all the input. In response to asks for ballistic info:
Barrel length - Bartlein 26" 5R, M24/40 contour with APA Little B*rd brake
Barrel twist - 1:8
Bullet - Hornady 147 ELD, once-fired Hornady brass trimmed to 1.911" and sized to 0.288-0.289", 41.3gr H4350, Federal 210M primer
Velocity at muzzle -2773-2785fps (~50 rounds through Labradar - multiple "lots" loaded/measured at different times)
Factory 147 ELD - 2777 at same temperature (Rifle has an affinity for this factory round/bullet as compared to 140ELD, Prime 130 OTM and 142 SMK)

I agree with those who put wind/mirage at the top of the potential-culprits list. My guess is I've fired a total of less than 150-200 rounds at 800-1000 yards, including both matches and practice out of the nearly 2,000 6.5CM rounds I've fired out of two rifles in the last 18 months. I should have had my friends spot impacts at 800-1000 holding a single POA - but, for whatever reason, I didn't do that. I commonly do that at Woodys - why I didn't do it at Frontline, with two spotters available... senior moment. Yes, I was in a solid position, squared behind the rifle, and I could clearly see my splash. All the things @sandwarrior mentioned... been there done that; why I and my friends ALL failed to observe impacts while holding a single POA is categorized in the same box as what happens to the human brain when the timer beeps. Ear protection prevents the two or three functional brain cells from spraying out on the ground, but they still argue with each other and produce silly results. I can tell you the dates (from my log book) of all my 1000-yard outings, and the results are very similar. See "magic bullets" below...

I also heartily agree that the frustrating range days must be viewed as learning/data-gathering opportunities. I definitely try to learn something from every single round fired. I think I was more surprised than frustrated yesterday - my marksmanship was on par with normal out to 600-700 yards and failed only at longer ranges, so... what was I missing, and hence this thread. The comment about effects of any error increasing exponentially at longer range is very well taken. Honestly, my handloads were doing so well out to 550 that I assumed I would have great success at 800-1000. You bet that's silly! I thought I had the magic bullets!!

I appreciate all the feedback. Next trip, my first effort will go to shooting at a single POA at the longer ranges and verify I'm getting the grouping I expect, given wind and mirage observed at time of each round's discharge. With luck, I'll have an experienced spotter watching as well.

 

[vh20]

If you can shoot solid out to 700 but have problems beyond that, the Top 3 reasons, in order of likelihood, are Wind, Wind, and Wind. You can get away with murder with a 6.5 on a wind call inside 700. Try a .308 at 700 and you will probably see the same problem.

 

[j-huskey]

With your response to barrel and bullet, I would go to the next question about the conditions on the day in question.

? Recorded wind speed or
? Recorded gust speeds
? Wind value, full, half, quarter

In Shooter, at 1000, your round should be running 1600ish, time of flight 1.5ish seconds, and in a 10 mph full value wind, 5.7 moa deflection.

That very most likely is your issue, wind.

In a series of matches I run, where the 1000 yard backboard is 48' wide steel, I see missed wind calls 5-7 minutes from poa, with people running your load equivalent, in a 7-12 mph gusting wind.

Were it me, I'd build off my 600 yard data at 700 until I was confident, then go further, building confirmed data at each range out to 1000, only moving further after reasonable success and confirmation.

Best to you.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Technique
Wind

Yup.
Just cause a guy/rifle can get 1/2” groups at 100 doesn’t in any way shape or form translate to 5” at 1000.
Lots of QUALITY trigger time helps, because past 600-700 shit becomes more art than science.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Wind for my Frontline outing was light and variable. Wind flags (a foot or two of plastic ribbon) were anywhere from hanging limp to 45 degrees "up" in different directions at different ranges, and occasionally there would be "gusts" that had one or two flags standing straight away from the little "poles" holding them. I also recognize that the flags are only a few feet off the ground; those who have shot Frontline know the 1000-yard deck is 4-6 feet above ground level and the range slopes gently down to the 1k-yard berm (Strelok gives it a 1-degree "down" slope). The bullet path is therefore quite a bit higher than the flags' level, so I'm guessing wind was a little more pronounced than the flags indicated and I'm thinking that bit me (and my friends, who struggled the same way I did for exactly the same reasons).

Anyway, I called the wind 3-5mph quarter-value or less from left - which is what it felt like on the deck. Strelok gave me a wind hold of 0.2-0.4 mils left. Most of my misses were off the right side of the plate. Thinking through the scenario just now and putting that same wind velocity in as full-value, Strelok gives me a 0.6-1.0 mil left hold, which would have put me on steel more often.

Again, THANKS for the feedback. My gut feeling was that I misread wind. But I wanted to query the SH community to insure I cover all the bases. I'm surely going to make the longer trip more often - clearly, I need that 800-1000 yard trigger time.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Believe the bullet.
I like to dial my parallax a hair shy of target to see if I can catch mirage. I trust mirage more than wind flags (especially when there’s a lot of flags-too much info can be confounding my big brain when I should just be gut checking off what I see on the gun). Stay on the gun and watch for your impact or miss, then adjust accordingly.
Elevation is science, wind is voodoo.

 

[sobrbiker883]

And yeah, wind is usually at least quarter/half-faster every 10’ above where you’re seeing indicators.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

You're close to marginal stability for that particular bullet. Something like rifling or worn barrel can be a game changer.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

You're close to marginal stability for that particular bullet. Something like rifling or worn barrel can be a game changer.

Elaborate, please? Are you talking about twist rate? It's true that I never tried 147ELDs at that range with either of my rifles. This current one, as previously stated, has shown favoritism for it - and a distinct dislike for Prime 130, which was top-choice in my old one (Tikka T3x TAC A1, since sold).

Round count at end of yesterday's session was 724. Prior to session, barrel was cleaned with Hoppe's Elite, dried, cleaned more with Remington 40X, then dried. 15 short-range fouling rounds were fired before longer ranges were attempted, with 100-yard paper groups showing the normal sub-half-MOA spread.

 

[sandwarrior]

DownhillFromHere,

Something to think about how hard it is to maintain good shooting skills, top shooters who shoot at Perry, and many of the PRS shooters, run about 3k-6k rounds a year! For just a few hundred and staying in the ballpark you ain't doing bad. It takes a lot of good feedback to really see how you are doing. Once you "get it" it'll come back like riding a bicycle. But, not without the wheels wobbling a bit when you get back on.

 

[sandwarrior]

You're close to marginal stability for that particular bullet. Something like rifling or worn barrel can be a game changer.

I would disagree that that bullet is marginally stable with that twist. It's very stable and will go through the transonic range with not that much disruption.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I calculated 1.6. That is close to marginal. Barrels can go out early. It happens.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

DownhillFromHere,

Something to think about how hard it is to maintain good shooting skills, top shooters who shoot at Perry, and many of the PRS shooters, run about 3k-6k rounds a year! For just a few hundred and staying in the ballpark you ain't doing bad. It takes a lot of good feedback to really see how you are doing. Once you "get it" it'll come back like riding a bicycle. But, not without the wheels wobbling a bit when you get back on.

Roger that. When I was at the top of my skeet game 20+ years ago, I shot as many as 10-12k shells a year.

With this rifle foolishness, I'm shooting maybe a few thousand rounds a year tops, with the majority of it .22 (which I don't count carefully like I do 6.5CM and .223). The biggest limiting factor for me competitively is a 66-year-old body ate up with lumbar arthritis. A couple of videos taken of me at the last match showed a guy moving like a half-frozen reptile, but the biggest time delays came from simple mistakes objectively realized but really clarified by video.

When I retired three-plus years ago, I asked some of my old skeet buddies (some in their 70s and 80s) what advice they would offer to the newly-leisured. The thing that's stayed with me is this: do the physical things you want to do while you can, because one day you'll wake up and not be able to do them.

So I'm quite happy to be, as you put it, "staying in the ballpark." I was talking with Paul at Frontline about the PRS Senior class starting at age 55 - at that tender age, I was still playing scenario paintball on a sponsored team of dads and sons/daughters and rocketing around through the woods on a mountain bike. There really needs to be an Ancient class for the 65+ set! [insert withered skull emoji]

 

[sandwarrior]

I calculated 1.6. That is close to marginal. Barrels can go out early. It happens.

I've shot those bullets to one mile and they were quite stable. If the barrel were going out, it would also show up at his near targets.

To be fair though, my one mile shooting was at 3k ASL on a moderate day. 60 degrees IIRC.

 

[vh20]

FWIW, I shot 6.5 CM 140 vs 147 ELD Match ammo against each other at 100, 1000, and 1330 yards out of a 26” 1:8 twist barrel. The 147 clearly grouped tighter at 100 and 1000, but at 1330 the 140 was always the winner. I repeated the test on several occasions. The 147s were becoming unstable beyond 1000 in that barrel.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I know, it's a very popular ELD bullet but it is acting like a 168 SMK for the OP. I'm just suggesting. We've seen stranger things happen that frustrate us to no end.

 

[eastexsteve]

It would be nice if you could find a day where the wind was calm. At that distance and greater, wind starts to become a huge factor. If you could eliminate the wind as a factor, that would be a big help. Here in East Texas, I can shoot down the utility right-of-ways where the trees block most of the wind. I can then move out to my wide open hay fields, and the game REALLY changes.

 

[candyx]

What changes after 700 yards, you can't hear the target gasp his last breath that's what sucks about long range shooting.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I know, it's a very popular ELD bullet but it is acting like a 168 SMK for the OP. I'm just suggesting. We've seen stranger things happen that frustrate us to no end.

That’s why I suggested he do some testing.

Everyone is trying to diagnose the issue without enough facts.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Guy is telling everyone he’s not getting any consistency. Not just one day, everyday.

This isn’t a wind issue, unless this is some place where the wind is swirling and blowing like crazy, all day everyday.

Worst case scenario, there’s zero reason he can’t fire a round or 10 and walk it onto a 2moa target and start smacking at 1k consistently. It’s a 6.5. Wind ain’t that big a deal most days (after the first shot at least) to screw with a 6.5 everytime he shoots.

This is:

Shooter’s fundamentals

Loading issue

Barrel issue.

It’s one of those.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Wind for my Frontline outing was light and variable. Wind flags (a foot or two of plastic ribbon) were anywhere from hanging limp to 45 degrees "up" in different directions at different ranges, and occasionally there would be "gusts" that had one or two flags standing straight away from the little "poles" holding them. I also recognize that the flags are only a few feet off the ground; those who have shot Frontline know the 1000-yard deck is 4-6 feet above ground level and the range slopes gently down to the 1k-yard berm (Strelok gives it a 1-degree "down" slope). The bullet path is therefore quite a bit higher than the flags' level, so I'm guessing wind was a little more pronounced than the flags indicated and I'm thinking that bit me (and my friends, who struggled the same way I did for exactly the same reasons).

Anyway, I called the wind 3-5mph quarter-value or less from left - which is what it felt like on the deck. Strelok gave me a wind hold of 0.2-0.4 mils left. Most of my misses were off the right side of the plate. Thinking through the scenario just now and putting that same wind velocity in as full-value, Strelok gives me a 0.6-1.0 mil left hold, which would have put me on steel more often.

Again, THANKS for the feedback. My gut feeling was that I misread wind. But I wanted to query the SH community to insure I cover all the bases. I'm surely going to make the longer trip more often - clearly, I need that 800-1000 yard trigger time.

I’m not understanding, if you took your shots, saw it was hitting right, did you not adjust and start making impacts?

This sounds like pretty light winds overall. Not something that’s going to blow you all over the place.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

That’s why I suggested he do some testing.

Everyone is trying to diagnose the issue without enough facts.

That is what we do at the Hide.

 

[j-huskey]

@dt and @Culpeper

Just say for instance, culpepper's 1.6 is correct and op has a lazy barrel, which exacerbates the 1.6, the wind is going to eat that edge of performance load alive, no program can correct for it. Further out it goes, worse it gets.

Paying attention to vh20, it seems vh20 has seen the 147 instability past a certain distance, because of culpepper's 1.6.

I can come very close to repeating those results in an 8 twist test bed and 9 twist test bed, dropping the 6.5-06 velocity to 2775 from 2950fps.

The 140 hybrid and the 140 eld both hold better than the 147 at 2775, in the 8 twist.
jfwiw, dont try the 147 in a 9 twist, it's a waste of components and time...

Vh20 and I are shooting close to the same asl with similar results.

The op is going to have to find his own balance by testing a couple of different bullets in that rifle.

A few years back we necked a SAUM down to 6.5 (b4 we did that we wasted a barrel and reamer in 6.5 Winchester Mag, and in 300wsm necked down to 6.5 ) and tried to push a pointed Sierra 155 6.5 match bullet over 3000 fps just to see what we could do (this was b4 the hybrid and eld bullets were alive). It ate barrels at a 500-600 round rate, and could be stable in an 8 twist at 3100, but, it got unstable very quickly as velocity and rotational velocity dropped. End of a wasteful experiment.
There are similarities with the 147 and culpepper's 1.6 and the op's comments.

Again, the op is going to have to find this on his own. I'd personally take some 140 hybrids and 140 eld and try it against those 147's and I think we would know in 20 rounds of each. Just my unasked opinion.

 

[vh20]

Five rounds each of factory Hornady 140 and 147 ELD ammo fired consecutively from same rifle at 1330 yards. Only manage three hits with the 147. This was the second time I ran this test. The first time I had similar performance from the 140, but got zero hits from the 147 so I had nothing to show. Important to note, the 147 outperformed the 140 at 100 and 1000, which really blew my mind when I couldn’t hit with it at 1330 and the 140s were no trouble. Krieger 26” 1:8 Rt, Rem Heavy Varmint.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I’m not understanding, if you took your shots, saw it was hitting right, did you not adjust and start making impacts?

This sounds like pretty light winds overall. Not something that’s going to blow you all over the place.

Here is one sequence. This repeated a few times. Note that I only brought 40 rounds with me; 15 were fired at shorter ranges before I even attempted the 800-1000 yard shots and I fired at least half the remaining 35 at shorter ranges. So: neither an exhaustive nor structured test.

1. Favor left edge of 2MOA plate per Strelok. Impact is 6" off right edge.
2. Increase left hold 2 MOA / 0.6 mil. Impact is in same place.
3. Increase left hold another MOA / 0.3 mil. Impact just off left edge.
4. Elevation is correct and consistent for this sequence, but not so much in others.

I'm quite intrigued by the discussion of 147ELD stability. Here is a photo of yesterday's 100-yard intro-OCW test with Prime brass (previous shooting, including Frontline, was Hornady brass). On the left-hand target, the low round was the cold-bore shot. Four rounds on each target, fired sequentially low-medium-high charges on left-middle-right diamonds, repeat 4x. Then one round of each charge on 540-yard target. Low and medium charges stacked, high charge maybe 2" higher, 2" left.

So clearly the rifle likes the 147ELD out to 500-600, but, in this Prime-brass sequence, velocities are low-ish (still higher than box-printed velocity).

But, to be honest, I have never been that consistent at 800-100, with other bullets in either this rifle or my old Tikka.

This has become an interesting thread... intriguing to a retired computer programmer/engineer who made a decent living dealing with obscure / picayune electronic stuff.

 

[vh20]

For reference, 147 ELD-M from same rifle at 100 and 1000.

 

[Rob01]

There are no stability issues with a 147 in an 8 twist. I shoot factory ammo which is going 60fps slower than the OP and has no problems past 1200 yards. This is at less than 500 feet ASL also.

Gary I will give you some 140 ELDs to try out.

 

[j-huskey]

If Rob is close enough to Gary to give bullets, and it could be worked out Rob shoots Gary's rifle with the 147's and shoots lights out, Gary knows what to work on and Rob is right, no stability problem.
If Rob shoots same as Gary, VH20, and what I've seen at my matches, perhaps Gary has a slow barrel with a less than optimal twist... should be 8 but isnt. Remains to be seen.

Be nice for VH20 to spin up a 7something twist and tell us how the 147's do there... be most interesting. Experiments and learned data help us all..
VH20 needs a little challenge, right ???????

 

[Rob01]

Not being an 8 twist would be about the only reason it wouldn't stabilize in that rifle as far as the equipment goes.

 

[vh20]

There are no stability issues with a 147 in an 8 twist. I shoot factory ammo which is going 60fps slower than the OP and has no problems past 1200 yards. This is at less than 500 feet ASL also.

Any suggestions as to why I got these results?
To add, you mentioned out past 1200 but not how far. I haven’t tried the 147 at distances between 1000 and 1330 so I don’t know where it started to deteriorate for me, but it’s a hammer at 1000 and a shotgun at 1330. I do agree that in my rifle, 147s are perfectly stable and perform awesome AT the distances OP is having problems with.

 

[vh20]

Be nice for VH20 to spin up a 7something twist and tell us how the 147's do there... be most interesting. Experiments and learned data help us all..
VH20 needs a little challenge, right ???????

VH20 shoots 6.5s purely for fun and low stress, and saves all his energy for challenges working with 338 loads and longer distances. ?

 

[Rob01]

Any suggestions as to why I got these results?
To add, you mentioned out past 1200 but not how far. I haven’t tried the 147 at distances between 1000 and 1330 so I don’t know where it started to deteriorate for me, but it’s a hammer at 1000 and a shotgun at 1330. I do agree that in my rifle, 147s are perfectly stable and perform awesome AT the distances OP is having problems with.

No idea why you got your results. What was the velocity you were shooting the 147s?

1270 was the farthest. No issues in my rifle. 140s shoot great out there too.

 

[vh20]

Hornady factory load, 2777 out of my rifle. Incidentally I get the same MV (within a few fps) and 100 yd zero out of the 140 and 147 factory loads. I went back to the 140s after those tests because I’m always trying to shoot max range. If I was in a match and not shooting over 1000, I’d bring the 147.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Lol, Rob has a vested interest with Hornady bullets. Of course, they're stable in every rifle.

 

[Rob01]

VH20 plenty of velocity to start but looks like it's coming into the almost subsonic area at 1300 yards per 4Dof. Could be what is happening. Might not transition as well as the 140s.

Lol, Rob has a vested interest with Hornady bullets. Of course, they're stable in every rifle.

Lol ah the old sponsorship smoke and mirrors. Always comes out to make people doubt what I post when someone has nothing to say otherwise. Please tell me about my "vested" interest? Lol the world could stop using Hornady tomorrow and it effects me not. Just passing out the info I know from experience and knowing the info on th bullets. Take it or leave it. I don't care but don't try and attack my integrity ever.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here is one sequence. This repeated a few times. Note that I only brought 40 rounds with me; 15 were fired at shorter ranges before I even attempted the 800-1000 yard shots and I fired at least half the remaining 35 at shorter ranges. So: neither an exhaustive nor structured test.

1. Favor left edge of 2MOA plate per Strelok. Impact is 6" off right edge.
2. Increase left hold 2 MOA / 0.6 mil. Impact is in same place.
3. Increase left hold another MOA / 0.3 mil. Impact just off left edge.
4. Elevation is correct and consistent for this sequence, but not so much in others.

I'm quite intrigued by the discussion of 147ELD stability. Here is a photo of yesterday's 100-yard intro-OCW test with Prime brass (previous shooting, including Frontline, was Hornady brass). On the left-hand target, the low round was the cold-bore shot. Four rounds on each target, fired sequentially low-medium-high charges on left-middle-right diamonds, repeat 4x. Then one round of each charge on 540-yard target. Low and medium charges stacked, high charge maybe 2" higher, 2" left.

So clearly the rifle likes the 147ELD out to 500-600, but, in this Prime-brass sequence, velocities are low-ish (still higher than box-printed velocity).

But, to be honest, I have never been that consistent at 800-100, with other bullets in either this rifle or my old Tikka.

This has become an interesting thread... intriguing to a retired computer programmer/engineer who made a decent living dealing with obscure / picayune electronic stuff.View attachment 7060516

From that target, you either need to tweak your load.

Or

Breathing and Trigger control.

Just from the groups, I’m seeing not breaking all shots at bottom of breathing cycle and too much trigger finger (if you’re right handed).

Again, that’s assuming your load is g2g.

 

[Dthomas3523]

VH20 plenty of velocity to start but looks like it's coming into the almost subsonic area at 1300 yards per 4Dof. Could be what is happening. Might not transition as well as the 140s.



Lol ah the old sponsorship smoke and mirrors. Always comes out to make people doubt what I post when someone has nothing to say otherwise. Please tell me about my "vested" interest? Lol the world could stop using Hornady tomorrow and it effects me not. Just passing out the info I know from experience and knowing the info on th bullets. Take it or leave it. I don't care but don't try and attack my integrity ever.

I’m sure you get tons and tons and tons of free bullets right? Sponsors in rifle sports have tons of cash and sponsorships are super lucrative.

So, I’m gonna need at least 1k of 140 and 147 eld to test from your mountain of bullets. ??