Training Courses What credentials and considerations do you look for when selecting a Long Range/Precision Rifle Course?

[velayo_0317]

We know investing into this sport isn't cheap. Whether it would be the rifle set up, gear, and even training?

So what are things YOU as a CONSUMER AND future STUDENT are considering when looking for a precision rifle course?

 

[ForgeValley]

Off the top, some of the things I consider:

Syllabus - Do the topics covered in the course generally align with what I am looking for and where I am in my training cycle? I think the training industry gets this and has courses tailored for different skill levels and student focus. I can find courses that are geared to comp, hunting, LE, or wanna-be mil sniper.

Instructor credentials - Does the instructor have reasonable credentials to teach the course topics covered? If my primary focus is training up for a PRS comp, I don't necessarily need an instructor whose primary training has been in the LE world. But more important than that, what kind of environment does the instructor create for learning to take place? What worked for me as a know it all teenager in Basic ain't going to work for me now as I push 50, I can tell you. Humility, humor, patience and work ethic are all things that are awesome to see in an instructor, outside of the subject matter. The drill sgt routine doesn't really translate to guys who have a lot of life experience behind them.

Location\Cost\Length of course - Real world, this stuff is expensive, and most of us have kids and\or a fairly demanding job. Week long courses are great, but talking the wife and kids into letting me burn a week of precious vacation time is tough. Factor in travel time and cost, and it is a tough sell. For myself I have set a goal of two training sessions per year, which fits for me in budget and time off from family and work. I think 3 days, done over a weekend, is ideal.

Range facilities - not super important, but can contribute to the learning process. Example would be the K & M facility. If you are training up with a comp focus, that is the place to go. Hunting, mil-based stuff, I'm looking for field conditions. A bunk house for students to stay in during training, the after hours drinking (I mean camaraderie and continued learning opportunities) are a great add-on that I didn't expect.

Oh, and congratulations on the win, I'm assuming this is Phil. ;-) You and Caylen are on my training list for this year or next.

 

[_Windrider_]

We know investing into this sport isn't cheap. Whether it would be the rifle set up, gear, and even training?

So what are things YOU as a CONSUMER AND future STUDENT are considering when looking for a precision rifle course?

A full sleeve of tats and a beard. Anything less and I’m not going.

 

[_Windrider_]

On a serious note though. It’s a big picture thing. You can get a sense if the instructor or whatever is blowing smoke. In addition, I talk to people I trust who have had said instruction from said instructor. I’m lucky in that travel is easy and cheap for me so location isn’t the biggest issue but I like to go to locations that are challenging.

 

[ForgeValley]

A full sleeve of tats and a beard. Anything less and I’m not going.

I don't even bother to vet the instructor if these things are present. This guy is clearly operator as fuk.

 

[308pirate]

As obvious as it may be, the ability to teach.

Some people say that one has not mastered his craft until one can teach it. I get where that comes from but I do not agree. Not everyone who is a master of his craft has the ability to convey what they know to someone who knows less than they do.

Knowing how to do and knowing how to teach and two completely different and separate things. Not everyone has both, and I say this from personal experience as I lack the ability to teach well what I know well.

 

[christopher.dow]

We know investing into this sport isn't cheap. Whether it would be the rifle set up, gear, and even training?

So what are things YOU as a CONSUMER AND future STUDENT are considering when looking for a precision rifle course?

Hey Phil, this is a great topic. I’ll go through my selection process last year and this year. I searched for classes for a couple of months before I signed up for the Mile High class I took last year, and I’ve been looking for three months for classes to take this year.

First, and foremost, I look for an instructor with whom I have some familiarity. I chose Mile High last year because I’d been an online training member and was familiar with Frank’s style. I signed up for the class before the podcast even started because I felt like the online training gave a sense of what was going to take place. Credentials are important, but there are many types of those, both formal and experiential. For example, you’re a Marine Corps instructor. Frank wasn’t, but he’d worked at Rifles Only for a long time and the Hide demonstrated his commitment to me. It’s my understanding that Jacob has no mil/Le background at all, but he clearly has the credibility to train some serious dudes. Bryan Whalen is a SOTIC grad and a former army instructor. Cleckner wasn’t an instructor but he wrote a damned good book.

Second, I look for what the course will cover. I believe that in order to be good at anything, you must master the fundamentals of that discipline. So I’m looking for an emphasis on that not only in the syllabus, but also in the material I mentioned above where I got familiarity with the instructor. Last year, I was looking for a course that would put me on the path with a head start on sound fundamentals. This year, I’m looking for a class where if I flub those, I’ll get called out, but with a focus on more advanced topics like position building, time management, target identification, and wind.

Next, I look at facilities: time is precious to me, so I’d prefer a place with some great scenery and a number of real-world geographic features like shooting across valleys and into trees. Last year, just having a place to shoot past 300 yards was a big deal. I have that figured out now, so I’m looking past distance to terrain. I’m also looking for a good set of obstacles to shoot off. Having a place to hang out in the evenings and shoot the shit/drink/listen to tall tales is important to me this year.

Lastly, but an absolute requirement, is that I shoot the class with my gun. At this point, I have that sorted, so I don’t want to shoot with someone else’s equipment. Frank’s stories from classes (and I witnessed some of that in his class in March) clearly illustrate why some classes require students to use a rifle they provide, but I want to work with my equipment. I bet there’s some way to vet students’ equipment or even put in a policy that if a student-provided rifle is too flaky, they have to use one provided by the school so the class doesn’t lose instructor time to equipment failures. That’s something you can do that many other instructors just have to deal with.

[edit—one more thing came to mind]
I guess the above wasn’t really last. I won’t be taking any class this year that puts me back at the entry course because I didn’t start with them. I’d like to see some way that a company could be assured the other students and I don’t need a focus on the basics even though I hadn’t been through their basic class.

I hope this helps!

 

[diverdon]

I consider:

1) What is available in the locations that are convenient for me to go to
2) How many people on the hide have gone to those courses and what do they have to say about them

Admittedly, before Frank tried to throw in with those assholes and the membership was 5x bigger it was a lot easier to read comments from other members. Today I might post asking for recommendations in my area.

I see that your icon has the word "Trainer" on it. Are you looking for a course or trying to figure out how to sell a course?

 

[velayo_0317]

This is great feedback guys thank you! Look forward to responding. Heading to the range right now but I’ll definitely respond later this evening.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is great feedback guys thank you! Look forward to responding. Heading to the range right now but I’ll definitely respond later this evening.

In addition to the above information, I look for instruction that is “compatible” with my style or outlook on shooting.

None of these are meant to demean anyone, they are just questions I look at:

Does the instructor:

1: actually get out and shoot (yes, I know not all good shooters are the best teachers and the best teachers aren’t always the best shooters). But at least getting out there a lot will keep them in the loop of what’s going on currently

2: if so, what kind of shooting, belly shooting, positional, etc

3: what kind of rifle (weight and such) does he shoot and/or seem to give the best instruction on

4: what is their philosophy on fundamentals and such. Of course every instructor claims they base it all on fundamentals, but once you see the class or listen to them, some are definitely using gear to exploit weaknesses in fundamentals (whether for themselves or students)

5: does the instructor really instruct or just spot and call shots? Seen this a lot. Basically a paid spotter

I could go into finer details on some things I look for more in depth, but I don’t want to turn this into an argument over shooting philosophies.

These questions would be more for an intermediate or better shooter who somewhat knows what they are looking for.

As a beginner, the ability to teach and someone who hounds the fundamentals is the most important.

 

[Ruggedtouch]

I’ve been fortunate to have had both private, one-on-one training as well as several precision rifle courses and found that the number of students makes a difference. A single instructor (with maybe one assistant) and 14 or more students just doesn’t allow much opportunity for any single student to get meaningful critique. I’m hoping for critique, ways to correct and the chance to make adjustments with immediate feedback.

 

[308pirate]

[edit—one more thing came to mind]
I guess the above wasn’t really last. I won’t be taking any class this year that puts me back at the entry course because I didn’t start with them. I’d like to see some way that a company could be assured the other students and I don’t need a focus on the basics even though I hadn’t been through their basic class.

This. A million times this. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing this obvious money grab.

I get that trainers don't want That Guy in their intermediate and advanced classes. But there are other ways to vet out people's skills: course completion certs, competitive classification evidence, etc.

if nothing else, have a quick skills assessment on TD1 and an strict policy of failure = dismissal without refund.

 

[021411]

I look at everything as a whole. What is their background? Doesn't have to be all LE or MIL. What do they currently do and how long have they been doing it? Are former students satisfied? I've seen instructors pop up left and right and use their "SF" background as a selling point. Just because you're a badass doesn't make you an instructor. It takes a special person to be able to teach and effectively relay information. Retention is another issue all together.

 

[Kadams1563]

I wanna know my lodging situation and what they are gonna feed me. Other then that I just show up to shoot.

 

[308pirate]

I wanna know my lodging situation and what they are gonna feed me. Other then that I just show up to shoot.

That's some smart decision making process when blowing > $500.

 

[Kadams1563]

That's some smart decision making process when blowing > $500.

I bet your the type of guy who carries a .45 because you can’t find a .46 caliber. A guy that been there and done it all.

 

[308pirate]

I bet your the type of guy who carries a .45 because you can’t find a .46 caliber. A guy that been there and done it all.

Why? Because I like to know a little more than what my rack and chow will be when spending what (to me) is significant amount of money?

BTW I'll take your bet double or nothing.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I see that your icon has the word "Trainer" on it. Are you looking for a course or trying to figure out how to sell a course?

It's Phil Velayo ....Marine sniper, sniper instructor, PRS competitor, instructor along side Caylen Wojcik at Gunwerks.

 

[Kadams1563]

For PRS they don’t need any credentials but to be someone who has a trophy case like you do.

Competitors will pay to train with you or any other top competitor.

So again you get good lodging and feed shooters and they will come.

 

[velayo_0317]

Thanks for everyone's response guys. As you can tell by my "Private" status I don't spend too much time on the forums. But I'd like to find more ways to contribute back to the shooting community, so I guess you can say I will try to give some feedback on some of the forums I see here as long as it adds value versus bringing negativity to a subject.

As some of you know, I spent 10.5 years in the Marine Corps. I've been to many "formal" schools while in the Marine Corps, from something as simple as a Professional Military Education school (PME) (eg: Corporal's Course/Sergean't Course) to all the follow on Scout Sniper schools the USMC has to offer. And while I hate saying stuff like that about "what I've done" because while reading it through text it almost seems like I'm bragging, I'm only trying to bring awareness to my relative experiences.

Because I have attended all these courses, I have been able reflect on each course and realize some were just absolute dog shit while others were actually beneficial. As a Lance Corporal, because I didn't know any better, you bet your damn ass I soaked everything I could with the first course I attended because I had nothing to go off. After the third course I established a baseline of what I thought was good and bad.

One thing I want the newer shooters who come into this sport to keep in mind, is that if it is the first course they are going to, everyone is going to be blown away. Long range shooting is a very technical discipline. And once you understand ballistics, you are considered a genius to someone who has no idea the difference between a G1 and G7 BC. The only ones that truly know the great courses that are out there, are those that have been to multiple and being taught my different instructors.

I like how some points were brought up about "going back to entry" level. That was one thing I guess that was nice about the Marine Corps is that after I finished the basic Scout Sniper School, there were follow on schools such as Mountain, Urban and Advanced that allowed us to progress. But what thing I found, that although the Snipers who graduated from the same "Program of Instruction" per se, because of the different teaching styles of every instructor (Lejeune, Quantico, Pendleton, Hawaii schoolhouses) there truly is no "baseline" to go off. So I was surprised that some of my peers, while attending these courses, didn't know some information that I remembered being taught at the basic course. So that is something to keep in mind as you guys as consumers/students, look to progress your training. I know that every company/training academy has their own progression, which is fine, but I'd urge you to seek out other instructors to see they're teaching style and specifically what their focus is for their class. I know that's risky business with a lot of money involved, but it is something to consider if you're stuck in a rut whether you are a competitive long range shooter or just an enthusiast.

I don't have the answers to everything but everyone that knows me knows that I'm more passionate about teaching than I am about the discipline itself. It just works out that I love long range shooting. I always tell myself "If I got fired tomorrow, what will I do next?" Honestly I'd go to school, to get a Degree and hopefully just end up being a Math Teacher.

For those unfamiliar with me, you can follow me on instagram: @velayo_0317. The reason I use that medium to post most of my "Phil's Food For Thought" and pieces of educational information because this day and age I can only grab someones attention for no more than 60 seconds before they are thinking about something else.

Thanks guys. Lets keep this running too for newer shooters to reference when making a decision! #KeepYourFaceOnTheGun

 

[Tim_WNC]

As someone new to this discipline, I am following the thread closely. Great info for sure.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

......

 

[Mr. F]

Tag

 

[_Windrider_]

Thanks for everyone's response guys. As you can tell by my "Private" status I don't spend too much time on the forums. But I'd like to find more ways to contribute back to the shooting community, so I guess you can say I will try to give some feedback on some of the forums I see here as long as it adds value versus bringing negativity to a subject.

As some of you know, I spent 10.5 years in the Marine Corps. I've been to many "formal" schools while in the Marine Corps, from something as simple as a Professional Military Education school (PME) (eg: Corporal's Course/Sergean't Course) to all the follow on Scout Sniper schools the USMC has to offer. And while I hate saying stuff like that about "what I've done" because while reading it through text it almost seems like I'm bragging, I'm only trying to bring awareness to my relative experiences.

Because I have attended all these courses, I have been able reflect on each course and realize some were just absolute dog shit while others were actually beneficial. As a Lance Corporal, because I didn't know any better, you bet your damn ass I soaked everything I could with the first course I attended because I had nothing to go off. After the third course I established a baseline of what I thought was good and bad.

One thing I want the newer shooters who come into this sport to keep in mind, is that if it is the first course they are going to, everyone is going to be blown away. Long range shooting is a very technical discipline. And once you understand ballistics, you are considered a genius to someone who has no idea the difference between a G1 and G7 BC. The only ones that truly know the great courses that are out there, are those that have been to multiple and being taught my different instructors.

I like how some points were brought up about "going back to entry" level. That was one thing I guess that was nice about the Marine Corps is that after I finished the basic Scout Sniper School, there were follow on schools such as Mountain, Urban and Advanced that allowed us to progress. But what thing I found, that although the Snipers who graduated from the same "Program of Instruction" per se, because of the different teaching styles of every instructor (Lejeune, Quantico, Pendleton, Hawaii schoolhouses) there truly is no "baseline" to go off. So I was surprised that some of my peers, while attending these courses, didn't know some information that I remembered being taught at the basic course. So that is something to keep in mind as you guys as consumers/students, look to progress your training. I know that every company/training academy has their own progression, which is fine, but I'd urge you to seek out other instructors to see they're teaching style and specifically what their focus is for their class. I know that's risky business with a lot of money involved, but it is something to consider if you're stuck in a rut whether you are a competitive long range shooter or just an enthusiast.

I don't have the answers to everything but everyone that knows me knows that I'm more passionate about teaching than I am about the discipline itself. It just works out that I love long range shooting. I always tell myself "If I got fired tomorrow, what will I do next?" Honestly I'd go to school, to get a Degree and hopefully just end up being a Math Teacher.

For those unfamiliar with me, you can follow me on instagram: @velayo_0317. The reason I use that medium to post most of my "Phil's Food For Thought" and pieces of educational information because this day and age I can only grab someones attention for no more than 60 seconds before they are thinking about something else.

Thanks guys. Lets keep this running too for newer shooters to reference when making a decision! #KeepYourFaceOnTheGun

60 seconds? You give us too much credit!

 

[bornhunter04]

Havent taken a precision rifle class yet, but plan on training with frank soon as funds allow.

Because:
1) focus on fundamentals to create a solid foundation and fix any bad habits. Also feanks persistence of focusing on the shooter.
2) enough internet content to give some idea of syllabus and what areas will be stressed.
3) location. My home range rarely gets much wind. K need to learn to shoot in the wind. Colorado offers that.

Ive taken pistol and defense classes and i always look at the at the instructors pedigree and try to get a sense of what the syllabus is and where the time will be spent.

Drives me nuts when theres 30 topics listed for a 2 day class with no breakout of what will be given the most time. 30 topics over 16 hours of instruction is gojng to result in info overload withoht enough time to really learn the important stuff. Focus on what really matters, dont try to do it all in 2 days, becayse i probably wont absorb it all.

Also hate the money grabs, i shouldnt have to start over just becayse of different school.

 

[christopher.dow]

60 seconds? You give us too much credit!

I don’t know. This one’s 4m27, and I watched the whole thing. Must have been the Man InBlack.

 

[NateVA]

I'm trying to find the time to go out to one of Frank's courses because I want to attend a course that truly hammers the fundamentals in. I like the end result of hitting a target but I'm much more focused on the process than the result.

 

[Hogstooth]

I will chime in as an instructor, and I can say that over 10 years of teaching/ shooting precision rifle, I still learn things or see things that change my mind or give me a new perspective on shooting or teaching. Learning is continuous, for those who think they can go to one 2 or 3 day class and become an expert or know everything is setting the bar way too low. Its fine if you are only going to shoot once or twice a year but if you are serious/ passionate about shooting then continually investing in your advancement is critical.

Am I learning something new?
Am I improving?

I usually change a lot about a shooters position, grip, and other things but I give you the reasons why I want you to try the technique, usually with good results. Which goes into use the information/ techniques that is beneficial, don't dismiss something because it is difficult to master, and look a problems from a logical stand point.
I look at things from a percentage rating, if I shoot 50 rounds and only hit 30 out of 50 on 2MOA targets, I am a 60% shooter, what are the percentages of my errors? 60% miss reading the wind or not paying attention to it, 30% marksmanship errors, and 10% mechanical errors such as dialing the wrong dope or mis-reading the range. With those percentages I can form a training plan to work on reducing all of those errors with dry practice and confirmation on the range.

I have only had one student who really thought that if he came to a 3 day class that he would become a world class shooter by the end, he still isn't a world class shooter, probably doesn't even shoot anymore. Hopefully!

Keep it Point of Aim
Point of Impact!

Phil doesn't have a snazzy signature line like that! #cred

 

[NorthCackHunter]

Anyone have recommendations for a school that teaches fundamentals of long range shooting here on the east coast? I don't have $1k+ to fly somewhere. Would love to drive. I'm based out of NC. I'm into reloading and starting to get into precision shooting more recent. In past just had fun out to 200yds max at the range and hunting. Just starting to get ideas of trying a local competition. That all said before bad habits get worse whats a solid 2-3day school for aspiring precision shooters. military style or not I don't need all the frills just solid instruction and an environment that supports the theories presented in class.

 

[Tim_WNC]

Anyone have recommendations for a school that teaches fundamentals of long range shooting here on the east coast? I don't have $1k+ to fly somewhere. Would love to drive. I'm based out of NC. I'm into reloading and starting to get into precision shooting more recent. In past just had fun out to 200yds max at the range and hunting. Just starting to get ideas of trying a local competition. That all said before bad habits get worse whats a solid 2-3day school for aspiring precision shooters. military style or not I don't need all the frills just solid instruction and an environment that supports the theories presented in class.

What part of NC?

 

[_Windrider_]

Anyone have recommendations for a school that teaches fundamentals of long range shooting here on the east coast? I don't have $1k+ to fly somewhere. Would love to drive. I'm based out of NC. I'm into reloading and starting to get into precision shooting more recent. In past just had fun out to 200yds max at the range and hunting. Just starting to get ideas of trying a local competition. That all said before bad habits get worse whats a solid 2-3day school for aspiring precision shooters. military style or not I don't need all the frills just solid instruction and an environment that supports the theories presented in class.

@Frontlinedefenseusa has great classes in the Raleigh area.

 

[Luke]

All my instructors drink SpinD...

 

[aps3]

We know investing into this sport isn't cheap. Whether it would be the rifle set up, gear, and even training?

So what are things YOU as a CONSUMER AND future STUDENT are considering when looking for a precision rifle course?

I generally try to see whether or not the guy is todd hodnett

 

[Hogstooth]

So if you are a potential student looking at getting training there are several things you can do to make things easier and less expensive. If you have a local instructor that you are considering ask them if they do private lessons, this is a good way to meet and be able to evaluate each other if there is a budget issue then ask for them to work with you for a few hours or maybe just conduct an evaluation of where you stand at a lower price.

If wanting or having to travel pre plan your trip 3-6 months in advance, get your ducks in a row with plane tickets, lodging, ammo, car, gear so that when a class gets posted you are ready to purchase or reserve your travel.

If you are needing to travel to a location pick the closest most reputable instructor you can, sometimes a closer airport is more expensive than a larger regional airport so don’t limit where you look. PLAN and PURCHASE PLANE TICKETS WAY IN ADVANCE, this saves you the most money, also shop around on the different travel web sites. If you suck or hate this get your wife or friends to help you out, my bother in law is a magician when it comes to this stuff.

Purchase ammo in bulk or load in bulk, also shop for the best deals and sales in advance, make sure the shipping and HAZMAT fees are not jacked up to compensate for the sale price.

Get someone to go with you to the class, if it way more fun and you can save money by splitting hotel and car rental etc. Kinda like a workout partner more fun and you won’t skip if you don’t feel like it.

Hotels are cheap for a single person if you can split or have a group go with you then you can usually find a bed and breakfast house to rent for the week, which cooking and cleaning laundry, security for your gear goes way up.

Don’t do all this for a 1 day class, make sure you invest in yourself with multi-day training of at least 2 days, 3 or 4 days is best. The first day is usually classroom with getting all the zeroes confirmed, guns and gear squared away, marksmanship consistency worked on, Day 2 usually starts with marksmanship then moves into skills such as supported positions, multiple targets, shooting at distance, etc. Day 3 things usually start coming together for the students in which they aren’t fumbling or struggling behind the rifle, and more challenging courses of fire are given to test all that had been given over the past two days.

Training for multiple days propels you to the next level in which hopefully you will gain the knowledge to be able to troubleshoot or diagnose markasmanship errors learn what and how to focus on what matters. The markasmanship portion is suppose to be the easy part the hard part is spotting your own impacts/ splash, paying attention to the wind for each shot, making good corrections to get that hit! Plus all the other game plan stuff, building stable positions, following your mental checklist, and executing good marksmanship that comes with competition under time and stress!

Keep it Point of Aim
Point of Impact!

 

[Ruslow]

I am relatively new to the long range stuff [3 years] No formal training when i started just the "magpul DVD". Before that NRA high Power.I have taken several courses and the thing i want to know is how do the instructors react to questions and can give good answers, about positions,ect. IE free recoil, keeping your finger on the trigger after the shot. WHY? When they become defensive about that and think their course is better than XXX's you might want to reconsider. i want alternitives to things for a reason, and when the instructors say this is how you do it and can not explain their reason why LEAVE. Their way may be the best for them but is it for ME? Stan

 

[NorthCackHunter]

I'm not opposed to spending the time and money, more just wondered if there was anything on the east coast that was highly recommended that I could drive to more easily. Def looking at a 3-4 day course sounds like the ticket. Thank you all for any and all input.

 

[Hogstooth]

I am relatively new to the long range stuff [3 years] No formal training when i started just the "magpul DVD". Before that NRA high Power.I have taken several courses and the thing i want to know is how do the instructors react to questions and can give good answers, about positions,ect. IE free recoil, keeping your finger on the trigger after the shot. WHY? When they become defensive about that and think their course is better than XXX's you might want to reconsider. i want alternitives to things for a reason, and when the instructors say this is how you do it and can not explain their reason why LEAVE. Their way may be the best for them but is it for ME? Stan

I am all about experimentation I have my methods that I explain the whys but if it doesn’t work or you are struggling with it then it is up to the instructor to figure out what works for you. Overall the biggest struggles for new shooters is consistency if you are trying something new you have to give it a chance, not change everything on every shot. Comfort is also a big one Caylen Wojik just posted a video about length of pull and cheek height which adds comfort. Let the rifle do the work, all you need is stability, trigger control, and follow through after that.

 

[Cote0321]

I generally try to see whether or not the guy is todd hodnett

??

 

[Pbgt]

Class cirriculum, Instructor abilities(both shooting wise and teaching abilities) facility- including student comforts (food/lodging), round counts, cost, travel distance to class, instructor accessibility after the class, takeaways(formulas,video of experience..) adaptability of instruction to group skill level, add'll course offerings, does the course have hard end times to allow for more range time, is the class guaranteed(ie. money back), class size and instructor ratio, class supplied gear if students gear has issues. I probably missed something, not in any order of importance.