What do you wish someone told you when you first started in precision shooting?

[Ronws]

I can see it both ways. For example, let's talk about golf. Try it out with some old or borrowed clubs to see if you really like it. Then spend a pretty penny on a custom set tuned to your swing, buy the premium lessons.

With a rifle, I could say like others, try one that is not too expensive. If you really like it, you can sell off the cheap one (we know you won't but I had to say it) and then buy the custom made and hand-built rig.

Unless you have already committed to it. Then, go the custom route from the beginning because you will be happier with the performance. However, beware of hurt feelings. A well-made rig leaves no excuse for crappy shooting. As in, you build a 1/4 MOA rifle and get 2 MOA results? That's going to hurt and probably leave a mark.

 

[xsn10s]

The reality is if you enjoy the LR experience you won't have just one rig. Sooner or later you'll add to it lol. One good thing about the 308 Win is barrel life. Don't let it get hot and the barrel can last a long time. I've had my PSS since 1991. A ton of rounds down that barrel. So even if you get a less expensive rig, you're gonna spend a lot of money in the end lol.

 

[Partsunavailable]

The farther down this rabbit hole you go, the more the little things matter. You mentioned maybe getting in to competition. When you start shooting 10 times as much as you did before, little things that would go unnoticed when you shot a few boxes of ammo a year, can be real problems if you start running thousands of rounds down the barrel. Weak ejection or extraction issues, are the type of thing that comes to mind. I think this is why most competitors ultimately switch from factory rifles to some combination of a custom setup. They want something to customize to their body/style and they need something that will run smoothly with 100 percent reliability. Gucci rifles with Gucci prices aren't all just for show.

 

[Ronws]

The reality is if you enjoy the LR experience you won't have just one rig. Sooner or later you'll add to it lol. One good thing about the 308 Win is barrel life. Don't let it get hot and the barrel can last a long time. I've had my PSS since 1991. A ton of rounds down that barrel. So even if you get a less expensive rig, you're gonna spend a lot of money in the end lol.

Many talk down on the 308, the very round that has it's own long range competitions. The very round that made it through the Big Asian Vacation and a few decades in the sand box.

 

[xsn10s]

Many talk down on the 308, the very round that has it's own long range competitions. The very round that made it through the Big Asian Vacation and a few decades in the sand box.

It might not be the latest or greatest, but it is a versatile cartridge.

 

[fdkay]

Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to guns overall, despite bing “middle age”. I bought my first gun about 2.5 years ago.

I want to get into long range shooting, and there are sooo many different options & opinions.

I have built a couple of AR’s including a custom <4lb AR that I shoot 2-3 moa consistently from a bag with a 3x dot.

I want to build a precision rifle that can get out to 400m + and will be more capable than I am. Both as a beginner and as I grow into it.
I don’t hunt, this is primarily for range, maybe competition a couple years down the road. Mostly for fun.

1st consideration:
Caliber - I’ve been between .308 and 6.5CM. Mostly because I thought .308 would be easier to get and more cost effective.
But searching recently they look to be pretty close in price and availability.
My understanding is 6.5CM has better ballistics farther out.
Should I be considering anything else?

2nd consideration:
Action - completely overwhelmed here.
Howa 1500? Tikka T3? R700?
I’ve been eyeing a Howa M1500 with the carbon barreled action, complete rifle for a price less than the barreled action sells for.
I assume it’s the exact same barrel/ action

I can swap the chassis & trigger at some point in the future.

Barrel length - 24in?

Where are my blind spots.

What did you wish someone role you when you were first starting?

Thanks!

Consider this:
Barrels are consumable items.
A good quality .308 barrel will last you 8-10,000 rounds.
A good quality 6.5 CM barrel will last you 2500-3000.
A good quality 6mm CM barrel will last 2000-2500.
If you are shooting less than 800 yards, the .308 will do everything you want.
To keep recoil down, look at the 155 grain loads.
The 155 grain ELD M bullet has a BC that rivals the 168 SMK, but it starts out quite a bit faster, with less recoil.
If, on the other hand, you are okay with replacing your barrels (figure about 450 dollars for a criterion) more frequently, you'll have a pleasant shooting experience with light recoil and excellent ballistics.

 

[mark5pt56]

• I would say define what you intend to do with the gun and do not try to make a do all rifle.
• Buy 1-3 different brands of match ammo, see what works the best and bite the bullet and buy the anticipated barrel life in number of rounds. Save the brass and sell it.
• Reference to #1 and with support gear.
• Same reference with optic.
• Get training to understand what you are doing, training approach and improvements.
• Get off your belly.
• And yes, if you are not enjoying it, take time off, step back and don't stress over stupid shit unless it's your job in which you can hand off that rifle and kick doors.

 

[LRRPF52]

Just the truth...sooner or later ya find out...some, like me, are slow learners...and kept spending tens of thousands of dollars on a hobby of little importance, and no one cares about your accomplishments, except you...really.
So the advice was do not become obsessed, with it, as it becomes very expensive and time consuming...and not worth ,"that" price, plus this type of accomplishment doesn't matter on the larger picture of ones life...been there.
Over doing it is costly.
Example: In the HS football Hall of Fame, cost over time: 5 shoulder surgeries, 2 left knee surgeries and a muscle graft, a lifetime pain, for a snapshot in time, of recognition.
Not worth the price, and noone gives a rats ass...because it's justifiably, unimportant.
Just like our shooting endeavors.
One can share information and have a good time, but getting obsessed with it, and thinking it has some significant life importance, or contribution to mankind, is like worshipping a false God.

I would agree with this if I was just doing it alone, but I like sharing my hobbies and passions with my family and friends.

Shooting communities, especially the Long Range folks, are very kind and will give you the shirt off their back to help you.

Long Range shooting is one of the most humbling disciplines because it’s a lesson in who sucks the least in the wind much of the time.

There are a lot of guys who squared me away dating way back, even though I have been shooting and chasing this particular skill set since childhood.

As much as I’m a geardo, I’m more of a people person and enjoy meeting with people from different parts of the Nation/World and sharing our passion for individual rights, shooting, and the outdoors.

It’s an interesting pursuit because it covers individual freedom, tons of history, self-discipline, skillset mastery, technology, applied physics, and interacting with nature in a way that requires a lot of observation and thought.

I have some trophies but they just sit in a cabinet without much thought. I’m only looking forward to the next outing with my family or friends.

 

[LRRPF52]

If I could go back to my younger self, I would seek more professional instruction from someone who was competing regularly.

I had to figure stuff out on my own, with leftover trash people had thrown out in the desert. I would place fiberglass liners of water heaters out at distance using a long tape measure repeatedly to reach hundreds of yards, and a marker to draw aiming references so I could measure how much drop my .270 Winchester actually had. This was at least 34 years ago.

Once I got it all zeroed, I started incrementally registering shots at distance, only to learn that my scope had come loose from recoil. I was right on the edge of gaining very useful information about real-world trajectory, only to lose it all to a basic problem with the mounting solution. I joined the Army, made it through Scout Platoon try-outs, did SOTIC MTT, learned how to read wind, re-learned how to shoot, and have never let go of it.

Get training from someone who has been shooting Long Range or Precision Rifle for 2-4 decades and knows what they are doing. It will increase your learning curve tremendously. I wouldn’t buy anything rifle, optics, or gear-wise until you do that. Electronic ear pro and good eye pro are probably the only exceptions, and take a notebook with pens to record your lessons learned.

 

[Rob01]

It might not be the latest or greatest, but it is a versatile cartridge.

No it’s not but I will always have one in the safe. Have a few now. My original 1993 .308 is on its 9th barrel as I mentioned and shoots great and super smooth but should be with all those rounds through it. Lol

As for bullets, it’s a great time to shoot .308 with the ELDs and others with BCs in the .520-.550 range now and in the 168-178 weight range, which I think is the sweet spot for the round. I shoot the 168 ELDs in matches to 1250 yards. Just got some 176 ATips to try out this year in my new prefit for my TL3.

 

[CK1.0]

Just buy this:

Custom Rifles

Shop our Custom Rifles for top-tier performance and personalized design. Each rifle is crafted for accuracy and reliability, perfect for discerning shooters.

www.gaprecision.net

Feed it this:

Ammo & Reloading Tools

Discover a wide range of high-quality ammo and reloading tools for your shooting and reloading needs. From brass casings to die sets and gauges, find everything you need to create precision ammunition and achieve optimal performance.

www.gaprecision.net

While not my favorite stuff, nothing is junk, and it's cheaper than what it'd take to put it together yourself. If you decide this isn't for you, you'll be able to sell it in the PX without getting too beat up in an hour or so without ever having to wonder whether it was the gun...

 

[Ronws]

If I could go back to my younger self, I would seek more professional instruction from someone who was competing regularly.

I had to figure stuff out on my own, with leftover trash people had thrown out in the desert. I would place fiberglass liners of water heaters out at distance using a long tape measure repeatedly to reach hundreds of yards, and a marker to draw aiming references so I could measure how much drop my .270 Winchester actually had. This was at least 34 years ago.

I read about a very accomplished sniper who got DOPE on his rifle very much this way. Make adjustments. Walk out or drive out to the target and see what happened. By the time he got to 1,000 yards, he had it complete.

"Shooting accurately is not hard. It's just tedious."

This was 60 years ago before all kinds of cameras and drones and stuff. You either had a spotting scope or you walked the range to each target.

 

[LRRPF52]

I read about a very accomplished sniper who got DOPE on his rifle very much this way. Make adjustments. Walk out or drive out to the target and see what happened. By the time he got to 1,000 yards, he had it complete.

"Shooting accurately is not hard. It's just tedious."

This was 60 years ago before all kinds of cameras and drones and stuff. You either had a spotting scope or you walked the range to each target.

Once we started using LRFs and Kestrels against the published trajectory tables for M118 173gr Special Ball, then started to get PDAs, then smart phones with ballistics programs apps, everything got progressively easier.

I usually have new shooters centerline at 1000yds on Day 1, Morning 1 of LR courses. Biggest variables that were hard to measure before were barometric pressure and actual muzzle velocity. All the atmospheric variables and specifics to how the rifle is actually performing are more dialed-in known quantities these days, along with a laundry list of ballistics apps that can spit out shockingly-precise corrections for elevation and windage.

It has been an adventure in itself just watching long range shooting evolve from the days of guesswork to no guesswork now, and an avalanche of technology to allow new shooters to become pretty effective in short time.

 

[LRRPF52]

This is all the reason more not to go out and buy stuff before getting some competent and experienced instruction.

You will see what is being used and why, then build a budget plan for acquiring the subsystems necessary to get started.

 

[stanley_white]

It has been an adventure in itself just watching long range shooting evolve from the days of guesswork to no guesswork now, and an avalanche of technology to allow new shooters to become pretty effective in short time.

Do you feel like anything is lost by having today’s turn-key ability to get to 1,000 yards as compared to what was learned on the journey to 1,000 yards when today’s tech wasn’t available?

-Stan

 

[Longshot231]

This might sound like ridiculous advice but don’t start shooting centerfire rifles right off the bat.

Get the very best target rimfire rifle that you can afford with optics to match. Buy a rifle with accessories that you will use on a centerfire rifle later on; such as really good bipods and shooting bags. You will want a setup that will mimick what the centerfire riflemen are using.

If you can afford a Vudoo or custom made Rim-X get it. Buy once - cry once.

Buy quality ammunition. When you start shooting you don’t want to doubt the accuracy of the ammunition. If you miss it’s probably your fault.

Get help from a top notch shooter who knows what he is doing to put everything together.

Start off shooting at 50 yards. If you can’t find a good instructor there are some excellent videos online.

Shoot at small targets at 50 yards in different positions. Take your time. Make every shot count as if you have a $1000 bet riding on it.

Set a goal to shoot aspirin tablets glued to paper at 50 yards. Try baby aspirin tablets.

You’re striving to perfect fundamental skills so they will be 2nd nature. Develop good habits.

Then move to small targets at 100 yards. Try for targets that are 1 moa or smaller. Make it fun. Shoot at paintballs or dum-dum suckers with the sticks inserted in holes drilled in a piece of 2X4.

Learn how to read the wind. Get a good ballistic app for your smart phone or iPad.

Try going beyond 100 yards with your rimfire rifle. This might require a scope base with more than a 20 MOA cant. My Vudoo and some other rimfire rifles have a 60 MOA cant with optics that will let me zero at 50 yards without bottoming out.

Turn your very expensive rimfire rifle into a long range rig capable of hitting a pie plate sized target at 400 yards.

Is that difficult. Hell yes but you will learn so much about reading wind and holdover, not to mention perfecting the fundamentals.

Don’t be afraid to shoot on windy days except when you need to zero your rifle.

You won’t regret the purchase of a quality, albeit expensive, rimfire rifle that will last a long time. In the interim build up your skills and education on precision shooting before purchasing a great long range centerfire rig.

The transition will be easier than you think.

I shoot my rimfire target rifles about 75% of the time and it keeps my skills sharp for the days when I drag out the big bores.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

Take a class

Shoot a lot

Buy a nice rifle that suits you

In that order

Nik what's the matter with you my Ninja? You forgot to tell him to call me lmao...

Mike R.

 

[xsn10s]

No it’s not but I will always have one in the safe. Have a few now. My original 1993 .308 is on its 9th barrel as I mentioned and shoots great and super smooth but should be with all those rounds through it. Lol

As for bullets, it’s a great time to shoot .308 with the ELDs and others with BCs in the .520-.550 range now and in the 168-178 weight range, which I think is the sweet spot for the round. I shoot the 168 ELDs in matches to 1250 yards. Just got some 176 ATips to try out this year in my new prefit for my TL3.

Mine shoots 168gr SMK's or 168gr CC the best. But like you I shoot the 168gr ELDM's. You just cannot deny the BC and fragmenting capabilities of the ELDM's.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

"Buy more ammo."

 

[Emerson0311]

The farther down this rabbit hole you go, the more the little things matter. You mentioned maybe getting in to competition. When you start shooting 10 times as much as you did before, little things that would go unnoticed when you shot a few boxes of ammo a year, can be real problems if you start running thousands of rounds down the barrel. Weak ejection or extraction issues, are the type of thing that comes to mind. I think this is why most competitors ultimately switch from factory rifles to some combination of a custom setup. They want something to customize to their body/style and they need something that will run smoothly with 100 percent reliability. Gucci rifles with Gucci prices aren't all just for show.

This. The better a shooter gets, the more the small problems with various more generic gear become obvious. Also, little things that can improve your score by 2% are the difference between podium finishes and who cares.

 

[Nik H]

Nik what's the matter with you my Ninja? You forgot to tell him to call me lmao...

Mike R.

I always sing your praises Master Mike but some need to learn the way forward

 

[Simonsza1]

Here, your search is over.

Firearms - ARC CDG 6mm CM, complete with Xylo

Had this built the end of last year and shot exactly 14 rounds through it. Just don't have time to shoot right now. ARC CDG action, PVA straight flute barrel, brake, TT diamond, XYLO chassis. Everything was new with the exception of the chassis when this was built. $2500 (net) including...

www.snipershide.com

 

[LRRPF52]

Do you feel like anything is lost by having today’s turn-key ability to get to 1,000 yards as compared to what was learned on the journey to 1,000 yards when today’s tech wasn’t available?

-Stan

I know I appreciate the technology much more, whereas the newer guys seem to just take it for granted and expect it out of the gate. I think a hybrid of studying your incremental trajectory data displayed in the program is great to compare agains actual POI at each range relative to a TGT centerline/waterline, so you can see how well your program is predicting your impacts.

It’s easy to just shoot and get hits on steel, then move to the next TGT. Ranges that allow you to have clean TGTs with waterlines are few and far-between, so for those that have access to private ranges or land, it’s a fun and informative exercise to do yourself, and will give you a competitive advantage as you build a relationship with your rifle/optic/mount/ammunition.

Another thing to consider that I took for granted because of my aerospace background was barometric pressure/Density Altitude. We always were taking aircraft weight and atmospheric conditions into account for safety on take-off because of air density and temperature. A hot day at higher altitude and overloaded for take-off weight often equals fatalities and mishaps every year in general aviation, sometimes in military and commercial aviation.

So if you’re in a region close to sea level, your barometric pressure won’t deviate much. For those of us that live in mountainous regions or travel a lot for events, we’re always looking at the barometric pressure first-thing so we can enter it into the program, unless you have a set-up where these variables from a Blue-Tooth Kestrel are already feeding into your optics/program.

As a kid, I was just using problem-solving to the best of my knowledge to measure what my trajectory actually was at different distances. The next step up with the books and manuals that were somewhat exclusive in the sniping community involved temperature variations, so on the Leupold M3A BDC turret, we would have ranges indicated, and then whether temps were above or below the table baseline, we would add or subtract clicks. I think I have those tables still somewhere in a 10th Group SOTIC student handbook that I was given by a former 1st Group SOTIC Committee OIC. I do not miss doing things that way. I have far more confidence in 1st-round hits using modern programs.

Another major development that I first saw with Lapua’s Quick Target Unlimited in the 2000s was that they recorded Radar data for their Scenars, and made that totally open source. The Finns had been toying around with custom drag models between G1 and G7 at the time, but Radar data threw that out the window because they knew within 3cm at 1600m (if I recall) how the .338 Scenars performed.

The most critical skill set that doesn’t have an open technological solution is wind-reading experience. You just have to get out and spot a lot to learn it, and it’s a never-ending discipline that still will elude the most-experienced LR spotters/shooters at times due to inability to see everything that it is doing.

 

[rockn30809]

To get a 2nd job.......

 

[Wannashootit]

I didn't have the patience to read through 3 pages of replies, but here goes...

First thing I noticed is 400M "+". How much "+" ??
Range is the primary consideration IMO when it comes to matching the stick to the task at hand.
Sure, the 6.5 Creed/.260 Rem are capable- but they lack energy at extended ranges which causes spotting issues. If you can't spot your impacts, might as well start tossing money onto the ground. I remember being at the range next to a group of shooters- all 3 with 6.5 Creed- and none of them could spot their impacts at 1200 yards despite a four figure Vortex spotting scope. If you don't have enough energy to move that plate- or spot the dirt kicking up on the berm, you've not matched the stick to the task. Where we shoot in FL, mirage is the biggest consideration at range so that may factor into the equation as well.

Pretty much any caliber will get you out to 600 easily- including .223. When we shoot long range, we drop back to 600 yards as my son loves to stretch his AR's (Grendel and .223, with the Grendel good to 1K) .
It takes more skill to ring steel at that range with a .223 than the others- and cheaper, too.

Inside 600, I'd do a .223 and if you have the ability to swing your own steel, go with progressively smaller plates as your skill increases. Ringing a 10" plate at 600 yards with a .223 is good- but doing it with a 6" plate is better

 

[Wannashootit]

Not worth the price, and noone gives a rats ass...because it's justifiably, unimportant.

Well said, with one caveat...
At 64, I've never been an alarmist- but I've also never seen the state of our constitutional republic like this, with at least some of our institutions within the federal government seeming to want to test the limits to which they can erode our constitutional rights and begin bordering on tyranny.

"Protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, against all enemies, foreign and domestic". It's an oath, a binding commitment.

These skills may not be "unimportant", some day.

 

[noremorse92]

Buy something that takes pre fit barrels so you can have a primary caliber and a 2nd caliber for practice that's cheaper to shoot, a 223 namely. Then you can use exactly the same setup for both, save good money there you can invest in ammo.

Take your time setting up your rifle as solidly as possible. Use a torque screwdriver. Blue loctite. Decrease all the hardware and mating surfaces between parts when assembling. This minimizes chance of things coming loose when firing, maintains the torque you apply to fasteners and maintains overall consistency in your system. Once it's all put together it is a system. Not a rifle, scope, scope rings etc. It must be made to be one piece, within reason.

Shoot a lot. Frequent shooting is the best way to get better as the guy behind the trigger is the biggest source of error. Good equipment only goes so far. Buy a case of decent 223 ammo and shoot at least once a week if not more.

Build a good shooting position and don't break it until you're done with that string of fire. 5, 10, 20 shots or however many you are firing. Personally, I like to shoot fairly briskly. This minimizes my chances of disturbing my position and stops me overthinking each shot. Let the barrel cool between strings.

Use a rear bag. You can make one with a bag of rice and an old sock. Lots available to buy. Stabilise the rear of the rifle and the front.

Dont overthink your choices. The wide range of information available, options for calibers rifles and optics makes it easy to fall into analysis to paralysis. A 6.5cm or 308 is never going to fail you for most shooting. Both cartridges are going to be exceptionally accurate with good ammo and a well put together rifle system.

Buy used if possible. You'll save a ton of money.

I'd highly recommend buying an action (even just a good used factory action) and getting a custom barrel done up for it right off the bat. Skip the bullshit with factory barrels. Some shoot great some don't. Time spent driving to the range and testing ammo chasing accuracy issues is more valuable than the cost of a good barrel so you might as well get the best possible chance of excellent accuracy and precision from the get go.

Buy a good scope right from the beginning. Lot of good recommendations in this thread. Used is going to be a good way to go here. Its already depreciated if its used so you retain the value of the money spent here. Your use case will dictate your choices here.

Make sure that your rifle looks good and you like it. Then you'll want to shoot it a lot. And then you'll get better at shooting.

Sounds stupid but life is short and making a 'financial mistake' with a smaller purchase (in the grand scheme of things) is better than one made on a larger purchase. Buy/build a great rifle, a great scope and either buy or load quality ammo and you will skip the discouraging teething phase a lot of new shooters get stuck in.

Thats all I got

 

[Mcrider55]

Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to guns overall, despite bing “middle age”. I bought my first gun about 2.5 years ago.

I want to get into long range shooting, and there are sooo many different options & opinions.

I have built a couple of AR’s including a custom <4lb AR that I shoot 2-3 moa consistently from a bag with a 3x dot.

I want to build a precision rifle that can get out to 400m + and will be more capable than I am. Both as a beginner and as I grow into it.
I don’t hunt, this is primarily for range, maybe competition a couple years down the road. Mostly for fun.

Moving into precision shooting is new for me, but I've got a couple of decades experience with shooting AR's and pistols. My comments are based using that knowledge.

Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to guns overall, despite bing “middle age”. I bought my first gun about 2.5 years ago.

I want to get into long range shooting, and there are sooo many different options & opinions.

I have built a couple of AR’s including a custom <4lb AR that I shoot 2-3 moa consistently from a bag with a 3x dot.

I want to build a precision rifle that can get out to 400m + and will be more capable than I am. Both as a beginner and as I grow into it.
I don’t hunt, this is primarily for range, maybe competition a couple years down the road. Mostly for fun.

1st consideration:
Caliber - I’ve been between .308 and 6.5CM. Mostly because I thought .308 would be easier to get and more cost effective.
But searching recently they look to be pretty close in price and availability.
My understanding is 6.5CM has better ballistics farther out.
Should I be considering anything else?

2nd consideration:
Action - completely overwhelmed here.
Howa 1500? Tikka T3? R700?
I’ve been eyeing a Howa M1500 with the carbon barreled action, complete rifle for a price less than the barreled action sells for.
I assume it’s the exact same barrel/ action

I can swap the chassis & trigger at some point in the future.

Barrel length - 24in?

Where are my blind spots.

What did you wish someone role you when you were first starting?

Thanks!

You've got a couple of years shooting experience with AR's, I'm a long time AR guy myself, new to precision shooting. You don't offer much info about you such as what is your budget, and do you have a place to shoot? Budget is the over riding consideration followed by your ability to shoot regularly. What calibers are your AR's? Do you reload? Unless you have an unlimited budget, building your own and buying off the shelf box ammo could be a real killer.

As with AR's, people on these forums are all over the map. Be prepared for the "gucci gun" guys. They say if you can't build a gun that costs as much as a decent used car, you're wasting your time and money. I say bullshit. The gun world is chocked full of very good factory rifles of all kinds that can be turned into nail drivers with a bit of money, and skill on the shooters part.

I've bought, built and modified a number of AR's. What I have now are off the shelf guns, a 12.5" IWI Zion and an 18" PWI MK116 Pro that can easily put an entire magazine in a 3 inch circle at 300 yards with 1 second between trigger pulls. Cost of each gun with optics is less than 2K. Now 3" is nothing to brag about when precision shooting, but for an AR, the design was never for that.

I reload. This is where the science begins to come in. Hornady's Handbook of Reloading is over a 1000 pages dedicated to this science. The effect of different primers, powders, and bullet sizes create a witch's brew of variables. Now add nature's ever changing environment of wind, barometric pressure, temperature, etc., and the witch's pot only gets bigger. Those who say reloading isn't cost beneficial don't know what they are talking about. I can reload .223 rounds for less than half the cost of buying cheap ammo. I don't include my time as a cost factor because I enjoy playing with these potions of being able to change such an important part of shooting.

I shoot A LOT, easily 300+ rounds a week, every week I can. I live in a rural area and have a 50 and 100 yard range setup on my property. The ability to shoot A LOT is necessary for any shooting skill. This wouldn't be possible if I had to buy boxed ammo. My ammo supply is substantial and I am always reloading. I strongly suggest learning to reload. It teaches wonders about bullet characteristics.

My suggestions are to play into what knowledge you already have. Set a realistic budget for EVERYTHING before you start. I researched for weeks before I bought my setup. Pay no attention to the "Ford vs Chevy", this brand sucks, mine is better crowd. Expensive isn't always better, and bad decisions only cripple you.

I think my setup, a 223 Savage AXIS II Precision with a Vortex Venom 5x25 scope is capable of 1000yd hits depending on my ammo characteristics, maybe longer. It also will double as a coyote killer as we have an abundance of them where I live. It's considered junk by the cork sniffers in here, but I don't give a shit. I stopped listening to that crowd years ago and make decisions based on my own intake of information. In today's world, there are $300 guitars that play every bit as good as a $5K one, I know that from many mistakes made over the years!

Make this about enjoyment and never let it go beyond that. The quest should be about perfecting the skills you already have.

 

[CheapBasterd]

You've got a couple of years shooting experience with AR's, I'm a long time AR guy myself, new to precision shooting. You don't offer much info about you such as what is your budget, and do you have a place to shoot? Budget is the over riding consideration followed by your ability to shoot regularly. What calibers are your AR's? Do you reload? Unless you have an unlimited budget, building your own and buying off the shelf box ammo could be a real killer.

As with AR's, people on these forums are all over the map. Be prepared for the "gucci gun" guys. They say if you can't build a gun that costs as much as a decent used car, you're wasting your time and money. I say bullshit. The gun world is chocked full of very good factory rifles of all kinds that can be turned into nail drivers with a bit of money, and skill on the shooters part.

I've bought, built and modified a number of AR's. What I have now are off the shelf guns, a 12.5" IWI Zion and an 18" PWI MK116 Pro that can easily put an entire magazine in a 3 inch circle at 300 yards with 1 second between trigger pulls. Cost of each gun with optics is less than 2K. Now 3" is nothing to brag about when precision shooting, but for an AR, the design was never for that.

I reload. This is where the science begins to come in. Hornady's Handbook of Reloading is over a 1000 pages dedicated to this science. The effect of different primers, powders, and bullet sizes create a witch's brew of variables. Now add nature's ever changing environment of wind, barometric pressure, temperature, etc., and the witch's pot only gets bigger. Those who say reloading isn't cost beneficial don't know what they are talking about. I can reload .223 rounds for less than half the cost of buying cheap ammo. I don't include my time as a cost factor because I enjoy playing with these potions of being able to change such an important part of shooting.

I shoot A LOT, easily 300+ rounds a week, every week I can. I live in a rural area and have a 50 and 100 yard range setup on my property. The ability to shoot A LOT is necessary for any shooting skill. This wouldn't be possible if I had to buy boxed ammo. My ammo supply is substantial and I am always reloading. I strongly suggest learning to reload. It teaches wonders about bullet characteristics.

My suggestions are to play into what knowledge you already have. Set a realistic budget for EVERYTHING before you start. I researched for weeks before I bought my setup. Pay no attention to the "Ford vs Chevy", this brand sucks, mine is better crowd. Expensive isn't always better, and bad decisions only cripple you.

I think my setup, a 223 Savage AXIS II Precision with a Vortex Venom 5x25 scope is capable of 1000yd hits depending on my ammo characteristics, maybe longer. It also will double as a coyote killer as we have an abundance of them where I live. It's considered junk by the cork sniffers in here, but I don't give a shit. I stopped listening to that crowd years ago and make decisions based on my own intake of information. In today's world, there are $300 guitars that play every bit as good as a $5K one, I know that from many mistakes made over the years!

Make this about enjoyment and never let it go beyond that. The quest should be about perfecting the skills you already have.

Don't forget a $3k scope, MINIMUM!!!

 

[DJL2]

Advice:
Understand that long range shooting is an expensive hobby, and the base price of the rifle is often the least of it. Start with a turnkey, purpose-built system if you don't know enough to put one together yourself, or to modify one.

What does that mean?
- A cartridge with affordable factory "match" ammo available with projectiles suited to the task.
- Fully tunable trigger -OR- readily available after market triggers.
- A good stock. Tiny forend, flimsy plastic/Tupperware, hollow/foam filled get a hard pass.
- Accepts AICS magazines (or other readily available and not $100)

 

[MO Fugga]

The cheapest part of this whole thing is the gun... life is short, buy what you want.

If you're on a budget and think you can't quite swing what you want just yet, remember that you better buy shit that other people might want too... or else you'll just be wasting your money buying shit that will be worthless once you know better and decide to flip it.

Exactly. My Garmin Xero costs more than my first Howa barreled action. So does the optic, mount, chassis... gun is definitely the cheapest.

 

[A.sosa]

Buy something that takes pre fit barrels so you can have a primary caliber and a 2nd caliber for practice that's cheaper to shoot, a 223 namely. Then you can use exactly the same setup for both, save good money there you can invest in ammo.

Take your time setting up your rifle as solidly as possible. Use a torque screwdriver. Blue loctite. Decrease all the hardware and mating surfaces between parts when assembling. This minimizes chance of things coming loose when firing, maintains the torque you apply to fasteners and maintains overall consistency in your system. Once it's all put together it is a system. Not a rifle, scope, scope rings etc. It must be made to be one piece, within reason.

Shoot a lot. Frequent shooting is the best way to get better as the guy behind the trigger is the biggest source of error. Good equipment only goes so far. Buy a case of decent 223 ammo and shoot at least once a week if not more.

Build a good shooting position and don't break it until you're done with that string of fire. 5, 10, 20 shots or however many you are firing. Personally, I like to shoot fairly briskly. This minimizes my chances of disturbing my position and stops me overthinking each shot. Let the barrel cool between strings.

Use a rear bag. You can make one with a bag of rice and an old sock. Lots available to buy. Stabilise the rear of the rifle and the front.

Dont overthink your choices. The wide range of information available, options for calibers rifles and optics makes it easy to fall into analysis to paralysis. A 6.5cm or 308 is never going to fail you for most shooting. Both cartridges are going to be exceptionally accurate with good ammo and a well put together rifle system.

Buy used if possible. You'll save a ton of money.

I'd highly recommend buying an action (even just a good used factory action) and getting a custom barrel done up for it right off the bat. Skip the bullshit with factory barrels. Some shoot great some don't. Time spent driving to the range and testing ammo chasing accuracy issues is more valuable than the cost of a good barrel so you might as well get the best possible chance of excellent accuracy and precision from the get go.

Buy a good scope right from the beginning. Lot of good recommendations in this thread. Used is going to be a good way to go here. Its already depreciated if its used so you retain the value of the money spent here. Your use case will dictate your choices here.

Make sure that your rifle looks good and you like it. Then you'll want to shoot it a lot. And then you'll get better at shooting.

Sounds stupid but life is short and making a 'financial mistake' with a smaller purchase (in the grand scheme of things) is better than one made on a larger purchase. Buy/build a great rifle, a great scope and either buy or load quality ammo and you will skip the discouraging teething phase a lot of new shooters get stuck in.

Thats all I got

Fortunately for me i knew i had to buy used, i have been shooting all my life and i know how to manage my gun money.

 

[High Desert duck]

A lot of good advice here. The biggest thing I tell new shooters is not to pick a .308. If your looking at PRS style competition in the future, it is all about spotting you shot. You can do it with a .308 but you will learn slowly, and you will be frustrated. Most shooters that quit after 1 or 2 matches are shooting .308 (or savages) In terms of recoil I wouldn’t go more than a 6.5 creedmoor.

I will add if you have a rifle that you can shoot to 500 or so that you can dial or hold over accurately (like an AR) go out to a local match and shoot it. Tell the match director you’re new, and looking to find out about the sport. If there’s a target beyond you or your rifle capabilities just pass on those targets. I know we let new shooters shoot for free, and our shooters will help, loan equipment, and let the new guys try out rifle/glass. This is the way to buy once, cry once. Get out and see the different rigs and see what you like and what you don’t. There will be a wide range of price options at the local club level matches.

 

[xsn10s]

No it’s not but I will always have one in the safe. Have a few now. My original 1993 .308 is on its 9th barrel as I mentioned and shoots great and super smooth but should be with all those rounds through it. Lol

As for bullets, it’s a great time to shoot .308 with the ELDs and others with BCs in the .520-.550 range now and in the 168-178 weight range, which I think is the sweet spot for the round. I shoot the 168 ELDs in matches to 1250 yards. Just got some 176 ATips to try out this year in my new prefit for my TL3.

Around 1200 yards is the distance where I can still consistently hit with my PSS and the 168gr ELDM's. 1-12" twist might be hampering me, I'm not really sure. That PSS barrel is original and I have to have at least 10k rounds through it. I found some new spots to take me out to a mile on BLM lands so I'll test it again. I took my 260 AI built on a Rem 700 with Rock Creek barrel out to 1420 yards. I took it to a mile late last year and after elk season this year. I couldn't spot my hits but I could hear them. But this past weekend I could spot the hits easy at 1420 yards. Some coyotes were sitting on that rock pile two weeks ago but I passed on the shot because all I had was my fire forming loads. I should of taken the shot because those FF loads were spot on.

 

[Shootnwrench]

What did you wish someone role you when you were first starting?

When she’s leaving she’ll accuse you of loving guns more than her……

YMMV

 

[Ledzep]

Bullets, Barrels, and Powder make up the bulk of precision capability of the rifle. The minutia, dogma, and ceremonies of reloading and rifle building are fraught with BS. Buy once cry once and don't break the shot unless the reticle is controlled exactly where you want it. Read a statistics book.

 

[Rob01]

The biggest thing I tell new shooters is not to pick a .308.

I'd tell them the exact opposite and I do. .308 will get a long barrel life for them to practice a lot and the recoil is not bad at all with a brake. Yes it's more than a powder puff 6mm but if they can learn to run a .308 then they can go to anything from there and still use the .308 to practice. I used a .308 for years at home practicing and shot a .243 in matches and this was before brakes became common place. The .308 is still my main practice rifle. Kind of like a baseball player swinging a weighted bat before heading to the plate. When you swing that tiny 6mm it feels like nothing.

So basically if someone comes in and starts shooting a .308 and they leave the sport it's not due to the rifle especially now with great BC bullets, great brakes and 25 pound rifles.

 

[Maggot]

Hi everyone,

I’m pretty new to guns overall, despite bing “middle age”. I bought my first gun about 2.5 years ago.

I want to get into long range shooting, and there are sooo many different options & opinions.

I have built a couple of AR’s including a custom <4lb AR that I shoot 2-3 moa consistently from a bag with a 3x dot.

I want to build a precision rifle that can get out to 400m + and will be more capable than I am. Both as a beginner and as I grow into it.
I don’t hunt, this is primarily for range, maybe competition a couple years down the road. Mostly for fun.

1st consideration:
Caliber - I’ve been between .308 and 6.5CM. Mostly because I thought .308 would be easier to get and more cost effective.
But searching recently they look to be pretty close in price and availability.
My understanding is 6.5CM has better ballistics farther out.
Should I be considering anything else?

2nd consideration:
Action - completely overwhelmed here.
Howa 1500? Tikka T3? R700?
I’ve been eyeing a Howa M1500 with the carbon barreled action, complete rifle for a price less than the barreled action sells for.
I assume it’s the exact same barrel/ action

I can swap the chassis & trigger at some point in the future.

Barrel length - 24in?

Where are my blind spots.

What did you wish someone role you when you were first starting?

Thanks!

i didnt read the whole thread but I was reading something Lowlight wrote on Facebook comparing 6.5 Cm and 6.5 PRC. He clearly preferred the PRC. I looked at a ballistics comparison and its better but not huge and not enough for me to change over and I didnt check but I bet there's more CM than PRC available. I did pick up a 7mm PRC which is a really flat shooting round, flatter than 300 PRC and cheaper, if $2.00 per pull is cheap. Put a Fat Bastard Gen III on it and its tame as a kitten.

If I were starting over knowing what I know I'd likely go with a custom Bartlein 26" barrel 6.5 CM build. Or the same in 7 PRC. Or both. Then add a nice bolt 223.

 

[Dendro]

I wish someone would have told me that a 5k rifle doesn’t kill anything more dead than the old 243 my grandad gave me when I was 8

 

[Cody S]

build a 30lb rifle. first barrel and don't know what profile to pick? MTU profile. get a good suppressor, I think OCL makes a nice 6.5 ti one for a great price if you can find it.
get a popular cartridge like 6 creed, buy the berger 109 6 creedmoor ammo and SAVE THE BRASS. shit I'll buy it from you, pm me if you want to do that later down the road. 6 creedmoor feeds well, doesn't kick in a 30lb rifle, and with berger 109 ammo should be accurate. learn to load and shoot.
if building a rifle, make a thread here and let people go wild with suggestions, should be fun.
I have had bad experiences with cheap scope and cheap scope companies... at least go vortex so if it breaks they'll actually help you out I hear. the cheapest scope I really love so far is the gen 2 razor, can be had for 1200-1500$ used here on the hide. if you got money to burn, definitely look at the gen 3 razor. I don't have one but a chootin buddy of mine patpat has one and really likes it over his gen 2 and he knows chootin.
I settled on a TT525P gen3xr about 6 years ago and I still like it.

 

[flogxal]

As a newish shooter, buy a complete rifle. Something like the Seekins hit, tikka tac or Aero solus are very reasonably priced and perform great.
buying parts from different manufacturers and piecing them together can work, but often requires some tweaking to get to 100%.
223, 6.5 cm and 308 are all great choices.

I agree with this, even though I've built some pretty nice-shooting AR platform gas guns. I had a .308 Ruger American Hunter that I started with, but disliked the concussion enough to shoot it less than I wanted. I started running gas guns and just recently got a Seekins Havak Hit in 6.5 CM for a good bolt rifle. Did not want to fool with parts choices and assembly, just wanted turnkey. The Seekins delivered.

 

[Taylorbok]

build a 30lb rifle.

30lbs is probably a bit much IMO, 20-24lbs seems to be the sweet spot for PRS.

 

[Cody S]

30lbs is probably a bit much IMO, 20-24lbs seems to be the sweet spot for PRS.

maybe. honestly I was drinking and being flippant, plus I've never actually weighed any of my rifles.
my next one is designed to be a total chonker...

 

[TheOE800]

When I got into this shit, heavy rifles were NOT it.

Don’t commit to any one kind of rifle it will go out of fashion and suck.

 

[Ronws]

Every rifle is the perfect rifle for everything until the next one comes along.

 

[Cody S]

I mean us target shooters have always enjoyed a chonky rifle. idk what makes a good prs rifle cause I'm not a good prs shooter.
but I know heavy rifles are easier to choot

 

[dms416]

When I got into this shit, heavy rifles were NOT it.

Don’t commit to any one kind of rifle it will go out of fashion and suck.

The “fashion” and trend following has gotten so out of hand it’s fashionable to be unfashionable.

Keeping up with the Jones’s is an effort in futility. I almost feel sorry for those who can’t stop chasing trends.

 

[stevenc23]

What did you wish someone role you when you were first starting?

Thanks!

Invest in good training 1st. Many good classes offer loaner guns.

 

[Cody S]

I say don't do classes, just go to localish prs competitions and compete to the best of your abilities. I met and made friends with people who were snipers at a prison, former military marksman instructors, plenty of former/active leo/mil, some gunsmiths, people just anal about shooting small groups... all were more than happy to point at my mistakes and laugh, then tell me how to correct.
you will learn SO much your first day.
I'm sure classes are just as good, probably better, but I'm cheap.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Put a level on your rifle.