Gunsmithing What does Titanium look like...??

[mgd45]

For all you gunsmiths out there who have been working around various metals for years.....what color should titanium look like?

I always thought it was either light gray in color or dark gray like steel.....but not bright & shiny like aluminum. Can anyone answer this question?

My shooting buddy who ordered a set of very expensive custom made scope rings from a well known custom rifle maker. The rings are sold as being Titanium. He wound up scratching the black coating on the rings & noticed that under the black coating was bright shiny silver.....almost like billet aluminum. Does this sound normal for "titanium"....?

 

[chpprguy]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Darker gray in raw form, close to the color of pewter....
when turned on a lathe, you can make the surface shinier, similar to stainless but darker...

 

[jcolev]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Dark gray is right on

 

[Alderleet]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

 

[Retoocs]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

It can be shiny if polished like this bike frame.

 

[polter71]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

That is what the alloys look like.

 

[bohem]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

If he really wants to know there's 2 easy ways to check.

1) Archimedes style: Measure the volume through water displacement and then measure the mass

2) Paulie Sr. style: Touch the part to a grinder and look for intense white sparks

 

[Kells81]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If he really wants to know there's 2 easy ways to check.


2) Paulie Sr. style: Touch the part to a grinder and look for intense white sparks </div></div>

I vote for this one..

 

[LRI]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

It depends a little on the alloy.

I've worked with quite a bit of 6AL-4v and it has a sort of straw color. (almost like when steel is heated and goes through its tempering colors)

The easiest way to tell is to touch it to a grinder. If it shoots a green spark, its titanium. No spark then you have yourself a chunk of AL.

Good luck.

C

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Here's what happened.

He fucked up putting his new rings on by over torquing the screws & snapped them off. The torque wrench was calibrated off apparently!! He took the rings to a machinist who was going to tap & unscrew the broken pieces of the remaining screws on the bottom half of the rings.

The machinist winds up breaking 2 drills bits trying to get the broken Torx screws out! During the conversation, it's mentioned to the machinist that these are "Titanium Alloy" rings. He laughs and says, "they don't look titanium to me..."

Since the bottom rings were now screwed beyond repair, he says watch this, "and he proceeds to use a file to saw down through the black powder coating on the rings in a small spot. The metal underneath comes out bright & shiny like billet aluminum. The machinist says, "I've been working around metal for 30 years.....in my opinion this looks nothing like titanium."

So now the hard part.....my buddy paid for titanium rings & it looks like he may have been sent aluminum ones instead, which I'm sure is a difference in price. He called the company & they basically laughed at his accusation. I guess it's hard to prove otherwise.....

Now he is going to simply order some Badger Max 50 rings instead....

 

[bohem]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Since the rings are pooched, film it and put them on the grinder. Call the company back and show them where the video is posted on youtube if they end up being AL.

See what they say then.

If they still tell him to pound sand, post it here and let us know who that company is.

 

[former naval person]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

If you can get your machinist to drill out the screws and go up one size, the ease (or lack of it) upon tapping the new holes will indicate whether it is titanium or aluminum. Titanium is much harder to machine than the best Aluminum. JMHO

 

[ifarted]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

titanium starts to dissolve when in contact with air. (gas)
(takes long time)

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Sand blast it at 110psi with 120 grit AO. I believe you will see sparks from Ti.

and it wont ruin your part

 

[Kells81]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's what happened.

The machinist winds up breaking 2 drills bits trying to get the broken Torx screws out! During the conversation, it's mentioned to the machinist that these are "Titanium Alloy" rings. He laughs and says, "they don't look titanium to me..."



</div></div>

I would think if they were AL the machinist might not have broken any drill bits off trying to fix this problem. Maybe you need to find a new machinist. I have an Eco Drive Ti watch and its a dull silver color.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Hey, I think we're missing an important point here. Who was the vendor? If they're screwing people with bait and switch products then we need to know so we can all avoid being screwed. Also as a comunity of technical shooters we stand a better chance of steering them to do the right things if we stand together. Losing one customer is no big deal, pissing off a large group of potential customers is a harder pill to swallow.


Hee hee... I said swallow!

BTW, my hubby has a titanium wedding band he wears all the time. It varies from dark grey to bright silver depending what he gets all over it and how he cleans it.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's what happened.

The machinist winds up breaking 2 drills bits trying to get the broken Torx screws out! During the conversation, it's mentioned to the machinist that these are "Titanium Alloy" rings. He laughs and says, "they don't look titanium to me..."



</div></div>

I would think if they were AL the machinist might not have broken any drill bits off trying to fix this problem. Maybe you need to find a new machinist. I have an Eco Drive Ti watch and its a dull silver color. </div></div>

Apparently they were hardened steel Torx screws and he didn't have any carbide drill bits at the time, so he used his normal ones......which worked on all but 2 or the Torx screws.......once he broke 2 drill bits on those last 2 Torx screws....he stopped.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenda</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, I think we're missing an important point here. Who was the vendor? If they're screwing people with bait and switch products then we need to know so we can all avoid being screwed. Also as a comunity of technical shooters we stand a better chance of steering them to do the right things if we stand together. Losing one customer is no big deal, pissing off a large group of potential customers is a harder pill to swallow.


Hee hee... I said swallow!

BTW, my hubby has a titanium wedding band he wears all the time. It varies from dark grey to bright silver depending what he gets all over it and how he cleans it. </div></div>

Well, I want to be very careful on who gets accused unless I am 100% sure on my assumptions. So, I'm not gonna start any company bashing....besides, it wasn't me who bought the rings anyway, so it really isn't my place to openly bash a company on the web.

I just called my buddy & he checked the packaging that the rings came in & they say, "Titanium Alloy"......so maybe the alloy part explains the shiny metal......

 

[JJones75]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

I have seen 7075 that was coated passed off as titanium a couple times cause its harder than normal 6061.

Titanium is WAY harder than aluminum.

Touch the part to a grinder and you will see very intinse white to green parks if its titanium.

 

[chpprguy]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Another thing to consider...
most aluminum rings are anodized, where as the titanium would be coated. You might be able to distinguish whether the rings are anodized or coated (cerakote,duracoat, etc)

 

[K_Labs]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

What kind of machinist that has been in the trade for 30 years doesn't have a carbide drill? What has he been doing using nothing but HSS?

+1 titanium will make a nice white spark on the grinder. Aluminum is powder and no spark and will gum up the wheel. Steel is orange.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of machinist that has been in the trade for 30 years doesn't have a carbide drill? What has he been doing using nothing but HSS?</div></div>

LOL! He was doing this on the side for me at his work station at his day job.....he has them, but I think he just didn't have them available to him at that moment in time....

 

[cj-etr]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

I work for an aerospace/defense titanium casting facility. If you blast the finish off I can analyze the rings with one of these http://www.innovx.com/en/products/alpha
You will know exactly what they are made of. No damage to the rings other than removing the finish.

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Below is a "side by side" color comparison...

The frame is 3-2.5 titanium.

The crank (pedal arm marked "Raceface") is aluminum.

 

[Shrike]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

volume and weigh. Easy enough to do with a little cup of water and your reloading scale. If he uses a dry erase marker and a narrow, column-style, vase, he'll be the most accurate. NO damage whatsoever...even though it sounds like they are already screwed up. If you feel like bashing, go the grinder/YouTube route. I'd watch it...

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

The color definitely looks identical to the crank and the pedal arm of the bicycle.......definitely looks aluminum to me.

 

[Shrike]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Well....did you ever find out if it really was aluminum?

 

[biffj]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

You can't tell by color if its aluminum or Titanium. The colors of both will change depending on oxidation and heat. 6AL4V ti looks just like aluminum when machined (or filed) and so do most of the other alloys. If you heat up Ti it will make any of a rainbow of colors. Its used to make jewelry for that very reason. Weight and volume will give you some idea but the best test is hardness or the spark test as frequently pointed out here. Most of the titanium alloys will be over 24 on the Rockwell C scale where aluminum (even 7075 T6) won't even register. Have a machinest do the hardness test. The quickest way of course is the spark test which can be done using a dremel grindstone in a non conspicuous area. All it takes is one bright silvery spark to tell you its Ti. Aluminum just plugs the wheel.

Good luck
Frank

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

I finally got my hands on the rings...my buddy went out of town on a family vacation & between that & both our work schedules.....it took awhile to get back with him...

Anyways, I post up some pics & do a little video with a spark test tomorrow.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Ok.....here are some pics of the rings & a little video showing a spark test....

Photo #1

Photo #2

Photo #3

Photo #4

Spark Test video


Anyways....let me know what ya'll think & if I did the spark test correctly or should I do it another way......

 

[salmonaxe]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

These rings from you pictures appear to be Chimera rings.

After a quick look at their specs they break out the material construction as:

* Advanced Alloy – lightweight body strength
* Titanium – lightweight recoil resistance.
* Naval Brass – non-galling base retention.

I don't know if they changed these specs since your buddy bought them. I'm pretty sure that even if they had said that they were a titanium alloy, that wouldn't mean that the alloy mainly comprised of titanium. It's been said that Bushnell Elite tubes are an aluminum and titanium alloy. (Which I bet is mainly aluminum.)

Consider another companies titanium rings, Nightforce. They specifically say that the ring is aluminum and the crossbolt, nut, and jaw are titanium. This is what I'd expect for the price.

On the other hand Murphy Precision offers Titanium Rings for not much more that those chimera rings. But they're not all snazzy and tactical looking.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

For the record, I'd like to say that my buddy actually ordered another set of the same rings from the company. He couldn't be happier & is very pleased with the craftsmanship & performance of the rings.

I'm not posting this to identify the ring makers or attempt to slander them in anyway on a public forum. We were just curious about the metallurgy of the rings, since they appeared to be so shiny, like aluminum.

If I'm mistaken in any way, then I apologize. That's why I'm not interested in naming the company.....just curious.

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

I just looked at the Murphy Precision Ti rings.....those are great looking & look just like I would expect Ti to look.....dull gray instead of shiny.

 

[cdmurphy]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

mgd45,

As a maker of titanium rings and bases, you really can't tell much from a freshly scratched titanium surface. When first machined, it is almost indistinguishable from stainless steel or aluminum. Over several months, it will eventually oxidize to a sort of pewter color. After that, you won't see any changes unless you do much shooting in strong acid solutions.
The best way, as mentioned above would be to find their displacement in water, then weight them to determine density. This should tell you conclusively weather they are a titanium alloy, or an aluminum alloy. (Just to head off any smartalecks in the back, yes, grade 5 titanium does contain 6% aluminum.)

- Cameron

 

[Tripwire]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

I don't think your little grind test is conclusive enough.

Be right back in a few.........

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Cameron,

Thanks for the information! There is a lot I don't know about this stuff, so I really appreciate the advice. Your rings look pretty damn sweet!

 

[Tripwire]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Hughes Net and Youtube are sucking today, in tandom.....

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Try Photobucket if U want to upload a short video...

 

[Tripwire]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Almost done....

 

[Tripwire]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Not saying you need to grind your rings away to prove anything but something a little more aggressive will tell the tale....

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lZJq5IRw1UA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lZJq5IRw1UA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[mgd45]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Great video! Damn, my video appears ridiculously stupid in comparison.....It would probably be better if I did it up against maybe a bench grinder instead..?

Thanks for the video.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

Yeah, something a little more aggressive.

You have to add a little abrassive heat to the equation to light them sparks off.

Belt sander, bench grinder, etc.

I've thrown chunks of Ti on a concrete floor and got a good little flash of spark....

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: What does Titanium look like...??

You could just send the ring to this guy.


http://www.brokenboltandtap.com/The_Hole_Works/Welcome.html

He's been fixing these kinds of screw ups for 30 years.