Rifle Scopes What I want my $800 optic to have...

gugubica

gugubica

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 13, 2005
1,714
0
Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri
#1
OK, so here is my list. These are the features that I want to see on an optics in the $800 range that I would run out and buy lots of. Everyone take my list and make any changes that you would like.

1. Accurate mechanically. It has to work exactly as it should.

2. I want the marks on the turrets to line up with the marks on the base. I want tactile and audible clicks that are dead on. Each click should be positive and solid.

3. I want to be able to feel each click and have every 5 MOA with a deeper click (so I can hear and feel evey 5 MOA, not have to count it or see it.

4. I want good glass, not german, but a solid example of Japanese quality.

5. I want hardened internals, titanium springs, materials that are going to last.

6. I want MOA/MOA setup. Hell, why not make it IPHY.

7. Variable power as low as 3.5 to as high as 28, but at the vary least, 6-22.

8. 30mm main tube with at least 80 MOA of verticle travel. 20 MOA per full turn.

9. one piece main tube

10. FFP with a reticle that is ancored dead center and doesn't get too small at low power or to big at high power.

11. 50mm objective.

12. Side Focus down to 25 yards at all mags.

13. illuminated

14. Optional reticles.

15. Sunshade included that will accept USO's ARD.

16. Zero stop

17. Lifetime warranty

18. USA made if possible, but not too hung up on that.

I am sure there are things I missed, but that is the short list. I really think this can be done.
 
#4
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

First off don't we all,

your list is a good list of options, here are the numbers that are going to suffer due to your price restriction

2
3
5
7
12
14

those things are going to be QC and require expensive equipment to perform and to maintain and will drive the price up.

you will not get those options for 800 sorry man
 
#5
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am sure there are things I missed, but that is the short list.
</div></div>

Oh go ahead, give us the long list while you're at it
crazy.gif
 
#6
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what brand of CRACK do you smoke </div></div>

+ 2.

You have just described my Schmidt and Bender PMII LR. Over $3000.
 
#7
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Items important to me:

I like your list but for me, high on the list behind good glass and great internals is 1/2 MOA elevation adjustments.

In tactical shooting I fail to see where 1" at 400 yards can be an issue, and 30 MOA with a full turn keeps me to 1200 yards in the same turn, and it boggles my mind that scope designers can't figure this one out.




 
#9
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

well, just for fun, I'll list my $800 optic.

Take a Falcon Menace 4.5-14 FFP w/ enchanced Mil Dot

Replace the turrets with Either the IOR large-exposed or a Leupold M2 style, still using 0.1Mrad clicks, 10MRad per turn. Give me 15Mrad maximum (turret stops @ 15MRad, so I'll know which revolution I'm on), put a zero stop at the minimum.

Put a Vortex style magnification ring on it.

Spend as much as the extra money as possible making sure the turrets track true to the reticle and have solid, satisfying clicks.

I will buy at least two the day they come out.
 
#10
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Interesting... A scope with all these options for around $800.00 would be nice but until the day a company comes up with one I wouldn't hold my breath. Call me pessimistic...
 
#11
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well, just for fun, I'll list my $800 optic.

Take a Falcon Menace 4.5-14 FFP w/ enchanced Mil Dot

Replace the turrets with Either the IOR large-exposed or a Leupold M2 style, still using 0.1Mrad clicks, 10MRad per turn. Give me 15Mrad maximum (turret stops @ 15MRad, so I'll know which revolution I'm on), put a zero stop at the minimum.

Put a Vortex style magnification ring on it.

Spend as much as the extra money as possible making sure the turrets track true to the reticle and have solid, satisfying clicks.

I will buy at least two the day they come out.
</div></div>

I think mine is doable. 90% of the scope already exists as a $400 Falcon 4-14. I just want better turrets, really. The mag-ring thing is just because my Vortex was a lot easier to adjust mag-settings on. The Falcon is a lot stiffer and harder to hold onto while staying on the gun.
 
#12
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

It was work -but I've followed both threads. One thing, when we all list the features that we want (as OP did, here) it damn sure looks ominous and semi-crack-induced. Personally, I would SETTLE (notice I use that term because if I buy $800 glass - I do NOT expect it to be my Dream Scope that I touch myself over) for numbers 1,2,4,5,6 (but prefer mil/mil) 9,10.
My personal opinion - and what both of these posts make me think of is, "Why the fuck doesn't the Sightron SIII have matching turrets?" YES, I want a FFP, but for $800? I could deal with SFP - now that's not asking much, IMHO - or maybe it is. I will be interested to hear what Sightron and Falcon come up with as responses.
 
#14
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

As the OP of the other thread even I have to say that's probably asking too much and a few of those features are the type of little advantages the top scopes offer for big $
smile.gif
This would be my list though.

As an aside, aren't Ti springs actually less durable than spring steel? I do a lot of mountain biking and I know they have attempted to used Ti springs in front/rear mountain bike shocks but I seem to remember their longevity and ability to hold a constant compressive force was greatly reduced compared to their steel counterparts.

1) Glass on par with a leupold VXIII/nikon monarch etc.
2) Solid repeatable adjustments
3) Options for mil/mil and moa/moa
- I would even go so far to say 1/2 MOA or .2mil adjustments
4) Lower profile exposed knobs, along the size of the M2/M3 knobs.
5) Side focus, adjustable to 25 yards
6) High standards for making sure the reticule is in the same vertical plane as the erector travel.
7) a 40-42mm objective with a 30mm tube
8) 80moa of adjustment
9) two power ranges, a simple 3-12 and a 6-24 (the 6-24 should range at 12x)
10) Lifetime warranty.

As to reticule choices the mil should have 1/2 mil has marks.

I personally see little use to these huge 50/56mm objectives, it helps a little with light gathering but it also means having to buy tall rings, and having ZERO cheek weld unless you run a stock with an adjustable cheek piece and it adds weight. I'd even go so far to say I'd like to see a 32mm 2.5-10x version.

Don't need FFP and it's harder to implement well in high power range scopes (though frankly it costs them no more money to build them that way they are just taking advantage of a desired feature to jack up the price) don't need illumination, don't need zero stop. Vortex is the perfect example, most of their scopes are under $250 so they build something with FFP and boom $1500 last I heard for the price range on their new offering.

A lot of companies are pretty close. If sightron offered compact matched turrets with 1/2 moa/.2 mil adjustments, used a new reticule design, they would be there, great glass, and good adjustments. Falcon might need to improve it's glass just a bit, reduce knob size and adjustment range, then it's all internal improvements. Clearidge I have no experience with them but they have low profile knobs, good power range/size, if the optics and internals are good, they just need matched reticules/knobs.
 
#15
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

I agree on the objective size. Actually, I think a 44mm is ideal. I stated 50 because it is so common (and I want to make sure Falcon knows that the 56mm on their upcoming model is to much).

And of the features, FFP really is fairly low on my priorities. I think it is a wash of pros/cons on FFP and SFP.

I understand that my list in the OP was actually lofty and so far I have only found 2 products that come close to my dream optic at a relatively reasonable price point(NF and USO).

But one thing I will not waver on is the precission on the instrument. The turret HAVE to be dead on acurate. I want to turn a turret that gives me confidence in my optic. THAT is the biggest problem low to medium priced product seem to have (and I really don't understand why.

I will do a review soon of the WOTac I just recieved in the mail. I was excited to get one. And although I will refrain from passing judgement until I get to check it, I will say that the specs on the scope compared to the price almost sounded to good to be true.

Thus far, my initial impressions are that the old addage may hold true...

If it sounds too good to be true...
 
#16
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Yeah it is interesting that the glass in a scope is by far the most expensive component at any price point and yet even mid level scopes under $1000 typically have very poor adjustment repeatability and quality of the click/notches in that adjustment.

One would think that would be a "cheap" place to make improvements in the mechanical parts. It can't cost that much more to machine precision parts as opposed to mid level precision parts. However I suppose the big companies don't care because 99% of their scope sales probably never seen the turrets being adjusted aside for zero'ing the scope.

I just ended up with a 4-14 falcon mil/mil and the turrets were very mushy but that's due to the insanely thick grease they use on them. I cleaned that out and used a lighter weight seal friendly grease and the turrets are actually pretty darn good. The notches could be a little more solid, and the marks don't line up perfect, but those should be easy to address. They are at least as solid of clicks as the MK4's are, not as nice as the NF though. For any company interested I'd shoot for the feel quality of the NF turrets. Since the 5-25 falcon is supposed to have better glass and turrets compared to the 4-14 they are getting really close to what we are talking about for glass quality and feel/quality of the clicks. In fact I'd go so far as to say the 4-14 glass is good enough.
 
#18
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Interesting post over there, I think his requirements are more demanding/use specific and quite different from what move here have been asking for but it's nice to see others are looking at and requesting products in this price range with solid features. Examples being wanting a duplex reticule only and 1/4 moa knobs because it's what they are used to.

I don't feel my scopes need absolute top quality glass, that alone would push the price over $1000 easy, mid level glass is fine. I also don't feel most need a 50+mm objective aside for those that fall prey to the bigger must be better trap. I can see for LE use at night 56mm would have an advantage but the cost is zero cheek weld even with a stock pack unless you have an adjustable cheek stock. These days I think coating quality and optic quality effects light transmission at least as much as the difference from a 44 to 50mm objective.

Frankly it would be easy for a company to improve glass once they had a high quality adjustment/body design. It would naturally fall into a second high priced tier of scopes with just high def glass and it would have the advantage of being super cheap for the company to expand the lineup since the glass would be the only change.
 
#19
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well, just for fun, I'll list my $800 optic.

Take a Falcon Menace 4.5-14 FFP w/ enchanced Mil Dot

Replace the turrets with Either the IOR large-exposed or a Leupold M2 style, still using 0.1Mrad clicks, 10MRad per turn. Give me 15Mrad maximum (turret stops @ 15MRad, so I'll know which revolution I'm on), put a zero stop at the minimum.

Put a Vortex style magnification ring on it.

Spend as much as the extra money as possible making sure the turrets track true to the reticle and have solid, satisfying clicks.

I will buy at least two the day they come out.
</div></div>

This is very similar to my list. I want is the falcons turrets to be of high quality and track correctly. (Mine seems to be spotty on tracking.) Shorten all the turrets, they stick out too far. I have a hard time turning the power knob, so fix that. I'm not really a metric guy so give me an IPHY/IPHY turret reticle option.

Glass is great on my falcon. So far it hasn't fogged inside or anything. Just make the internals more durable. The first one I got had a knob come off and it had some plastic parts in the construction of the knob.
 
#20
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not really a metric guy so give me an IPHY/IPHY turret reticle option.
</div></div>

...it was if a thousand Lindy's suddenly cried out and then suddenly were silenced....

 
#21
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want is the falcons turrets to be of high quality and track correctly. (Mine seems to be spotty on tracking.) Shorten all the turrets, they stick out too far. I have a hard time turning the power knob, so fix that. I'm not really a metric guy so give me an IPHY/IPHY turret reticle option.</div></div>

That would make a great option. I think Falcon is the closest at this point to the magical good scope/good price mark. I really think that the turrets are going to be my major complaint with the WOTach too. But, like I said, I don't know yet. It does have an MOA/MOA setup though, so that is one up on Falcon (for me personally).

Good turrets and MOA (or IPHY) and Falcon's are pretty much there!

*****Are you listening Falcon and Matt?*****
 
#22
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not really a metric guy so give me an IPHY/IPHY turret reticle option.
</div></div>

...it was if a thousand Lindy's suddenly cried out and then suddenly were silenced....

</div></div>

What is that?

Anyways, mils aren't metric. That's a period.
 
#23
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

I can make this real easy.....take a the vortex 6.5-20x40 (I own one and love it), leave the glass as it is, put a mp8 style FFP mil reticle in it, change the covered 1/4 moa target knobs to exposed .1mrad knobs, and take the power down to 4.5-14. done. I can live without illumination. 3 changes. that's it.

We couldn't tell much difference in the glass of my vortex and a 6.5-20 x 50 loopy mk4 side by side today. my vortex has 40mm obj. the loopy has a 50mm obj. the loopy costs 3X what my vortex did.

my guess is these changes shouldn't ad more than 400-500 to the MSRP of this scope which would put it at a street price of 800-900.

I'd be one happy camper. So would a lot of others.

my $.02,
LM
 
#24
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Yep and considering those changes have nothing to do with the glass it should be very easy to do it and keep the msrp under well $1000.

 
#25
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luvman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can make this real easy.....take a the vortex 6.5-20x40 (I own one and love it), leave the glass as it is, put a mp8 style FFP mil reticle in it, change the covered 1/4 moa target knobs to exposed .1mrad knobs, and take the power down to 4.5-14. done. I can live without illumination. 3 changes. that's it.

We couldn't tell much difference in the glass of my vortex and a 6.5-20 x 50 loopy mk4 side by side today. my vortex has 40mm obj. the loopy has a 50mm obj. the loopy costs 3X what my vortex did.

my guess is these changes shouldn't ad more than 400-500 to the MSRP of this scope which would put it at a street price of 800-900.

I'd be one happy camper. So would a lot of others.

my $.02,
LM </div></div>

hell, on second thought make it a 5-20x40 with a mp8 style mil reticle calibrated at 10x so at 20x the hash marks would be 1/2 their 10x value and at 5X they'd be twice their 10x value and sell it for 600 street price and I'd buy that one too!

$.02 more,
LM
 
#26
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

Seeing as you're asking for dream-scope input, how about this:

-Short and fat knobs, as opposed to the tall and thin ones,
-Dual Reticle, as suggested by another in a previous thread.

(to go further, the dual reticle has a 'standard' cross-wire and it is only the stadia that vary at different magnifications) I termed that correctly, right?
 
#27
Re: What I want my $800 optic to have...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not really a metric guy so give me an IPHY/IPHY turret reticle option.
</div></div>

...it was if a thousand Lindy's suddenly cried out and then suddenly were silenced....

</div></div>

Now that's funny.
 
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