i have a 17hmr instead of 22lr for bolt action. i do have a 22lr ar for training in that platform. how should i train and at what distance with my 17 hmr? what should i be looking for in accuracy in the beginning and the end result for accuracy? what should i be striving for? what is really good vs. average?
what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
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Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
You might start by shooting the monthly short & long range rimfire comps stickied at the top of this forum.
You can also try dot drills until you can run them clean at 50 yards, then move to 75, then to 100. With the 17 hmr you should even move out to 125 then 150.
I've got a steel prairie dog target that I like to shoot when it is really windy. 100 yards w/ a .22 LR and 15-25 mph winds is good training.
You might start by shooting the monthly short & long range rimfire comps stickied at the top of this forum.
You can also try dot drills until you can run them clean at 50 yards, then move to 75, then to 100. With the 17 hmr you should even move out to 125 then 150.
I've got a steel prairie dog target that I like to shoot when it is really windy. 100 yards w/ a .22 LR and 15-25 mph winds is good training.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NUTT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've got a steel prairie dog target that I like to shoot when it is really windy. 100 yards w/ a .22 LR and 15-25 mph winds is good training. </div></div>
Golf balls are great fun too when it gets really windy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NUTT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've got a steel prairie dog target that I like to shoot when it is really windy. 100 yards w/ a .22 LR and 15-25 mph winds is good training. </div></div>
Golf balls are great fun too when it gets really windy.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spts05</div><div class="ubbcode-body">good advice. thank you. now where do i go to get the dot drill or printable targets on this site? </div></div>
Here you go.
SH dot drill targets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spts05</div><div class="ubbcode-body">good advice. thank you. now where do i go to get the dot drill or printable targets on this site? </div></div>
Here you go.
SH dot drill targets.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
I highly recommend the dot drills. Distance is finicky and not necessarily correlative with skill. Put it this way, I could easily shoot a sub-moa group from 100 yards onward. The first time I did the dot drill, however, I shot jack at 100 yards. I ended up moving it as close as 25 yards before I started improving and seeing results.
I highly recommend the dot drills. Distance is finicky and not necessarily correlative with skill. Put it this way, I could easily shoot a sub-moa group from 100 yards onward. The first time I did the dot drill, however, I shot jack at 100 yards. I ended up moving it as close as 25 yards before I started improving and seeing results.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
Bottom line....
Shoot whatever distance you can get to most often.
The course of fire can be altered to compensate for the distance, but there is not substitute for trigger time.
If it is a PITA to get to a range that has 200 yards available to you but there is a place right around the corner that has 50 yards,
take the 50 yard range and go three time a week to work the fundamentals on an appropriately sized target.
Then go to the 200 yard range once a month to work on wind.
Bottom line....
Shoot whatever distance you can get to most often.
The course of fire can be altered to compensate for the distance, but there is not substitute for trigger time.
If it is a PITA to get to a range that has 200 yards available to you but there is a place right around the corner that has 50 yards,
take the 50 yard range and go three time a week to work the fundamentals on an appropriately sized target.
Then go to the 200 yard range once a month to work on wind.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
+1
fundamental training 50 or 100 seems to be a good distance with the .17, after all a pull or pshing the trigger / barrel off the target will still show up on paper. as far as wind and / or drop, with the flatter .17 would be better at a longer distance 150 to 200 as a beginning as any real measurable results wouldn't start showing up until that distance.
i'd actually stick to the .22 for some cost savings and the ability of using the more arching trajectory for training can be accomplished at shorter distance, IMO.
+1
fundamental training 50 or 100 seems to be a good distance with the .17, after all a pull or pshing the trigger / barrel off the target will still show up on paper. as far as wind and / or drop, with the flatter .17 would be better at a longer distance 150 to 200 as a beginning as any real measurable results wouldn't start showing up until that distance.
i'd actually stick to the .22 for some cost savings and the ability of using the more arching trajectory for training can be accomplished at shorter distance, IMO.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd actually stick to the .22 for some cost savings and the ability of using the more arching trajectory for training can be accomplished at shorter distance, IMO.</div></div>
I agree that the 22LR makes a better precision rifle trainer, but this might be a "run that you brung" situation. The 17 bolt is probably going to be more accurate/repeatable than the 22 AR trainer which makes a good AR trainer but probably a poor precision rifle trainer.
If the OP is interested in a new rifle, then there are a few good 22LR options.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd actually stick to the .22 for some cost savings and the ability of using the more arching trajectory for training can be accomplished at shorter distance, IMO.</div></div>
I agree that the 22LR makes a better precision rifle trainer, but this might be a "run that you brung" situation. The 17 bolt is probably going to be more accurate/repeatable than the 22 AR trainer which makes a good AR trainer but probably a poor precision rifle trainer.
If the OP is interested in a new rifle, then there are a few good 22LR options.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
Not trying to hijack the thread but say someone was doing this dot drill with a .22lr, What would be a good distance to start at and a good distance to end at?
Not trying to hijack the thread but say someone was doing this dot drill with a .22lr, What would be a good distance to start at and a good distance to end at?
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
You're supposed to shoot the dot drills at a specific distance untill it's over with and then you move the target. So, in other words, I would advise starting at 50 yards (25 if you're still new to shooting or really don't know much about your firearm/ammo) and if you do well try moving to 75 (I personally don't have a berm set at 75 so I go to 100) and just keep moving out in incriments untill you're feeling adequitly challenged.
You're supposed to shoot the dot drills at a specific distance untill it's over with and then you move the target. So, in other words, I would advise starting at 50 yards (25 if you're still new to shooting or really don't know much about your firearm/ammo) and if you do well try moving to 75 (I personally don't have a berm set at 75 so I go to 100) and just keep moving out in incriments untill you're feeling adequitly challenged.
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
To me, training isn't about small groups, it's about consistency and improvement.
When training and practicing marksmanship basics, a distance that is too long to rule out conditions as the cause of inaccuracy is too long period. For me, this can be 50yd outdoors, or even as small as 50ft indoors.
Wind training is a different animal, and needs to be out there far enough to ensure that winds skills are essential to consistent hits. For me, this begins to happen around at least 100yd, and indoors is not so much of an option.
However, it might be a better one with the creative use of fans to simulate crosswinds at various distances. Never actually tried that, so this suggestion is purely speculative. Might actually work better with an air rifle.
The .22LR accomplishes both of these within a smaller venue, which is usually more convenient to the shooter. This empowers training by making it more accessible.
The .17 makes the necessary distances longer, and the additional ammo cost also mitigates against more frequent practice.
Larger volumes of practice fire are usually beneficial. They are if they properly accentuate good marksmanship basics; otherwise, probably not. If it does the former, even plinking can be a plus. Every shot should be at a chosen target, and a valid effort should be employed to make it a good shot.
IMHO, anything else is simply an irresponsible waste of good ammo and range time.
But I'm not everybody, and my ideas on the subject are wide open to interpretation. 'Shooting sports' means a lot of things to a lot fo people. The more, the better, in my book.
Ammo should be good, but 'great' ammo may also be counterproductive, just as the 17's greater cost may not be such a benefit. It's easy to get caught up in the "only the best will do" trap, but that rather defeats the basic point.
The key operating term for training and practice is 'adequate'. Higher performance should come more from the shooter, and less from the equipment.
Greg
To me, training isn't about small groups, it's about consistency and improvement.
When training and practicing marksmanship basics, a distance that is too long to rule out conditions as the cause of inaccuracy is too long period. For me, this can be 50yd outdoors, or even as small as 50ft indoors.
Wind training is a different animal, and needs to be out there far enough to ensure that winds skills are essential to consistent hits. For me, this begins to happen around at least 100yd, and indoors is not so much of an option.
However, it might be a better one with the creative use of fans to simulate crosswinds at various distances. Never actually tried that, so this suggestion is purely speculative. Might actually work better with an air rifle.
The .22LR accomplishes both of these within a smaller venue, which is usually more convenient to the shooter. This empowers training by making it more accessible.
The .17 makes the necessary distances longer, and the additional ammo cost also mitigates against more frequent practice.
Larger volumes of practice fire are usually beneficial. They are if they properly accentuate good marksmanship basics; otherwise, probably not. If it does the former, even plinking can be a plus. Every shot should be at a chosen target, and a valid effort should be employed to make it a good shot.
IMHO, anything else is simply an irresponsible waste of good ammo and range time.
But I'm not everybody, and my ideas on the subject are wide open to interpretation. 'Shooting sports' means a lot of things to a lot fo people. The more, the better, in my book.
Ammo should be good, but 'great' ammo may also be counterproductive, just as the 17's greater cost may not be such a benefit. It's easy to get caught up in the "only the best will do" trap, but that rather defeats the basic point.
The key operating term for training and practice is 'adequate'. Higher performance should come more from the shooter, and less from the equipment.
Greg
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
+1 GL
Although new to this Long Range (LR) shooting and LR 22 lr shooting as well, I am learning at an excellerated rate with help, suggestions, and input from those here who have and are doing it.
Here is a very good analogy of practice time, IMHO.
When I first learned to play golf, I just wanted to hit as many golf balls as possible. When I first started I really wanted to drive a "LONG WAY". I was not giving a lot of thought to placement on these drives just hit it far.
An older gentlemen came up to me as said, where are you aiming those long shots you are hitting. I really gave it no thought and said,"Oh I'M not trying to hit a target, I'm just trying to hit it far". His very brief, but poignant comment was "I can tell". Man that really made me think!!
From that point on I never hit a golf ball that I did not have specific target aimed for. My golf game improved very rapidly and it was huge lesson. Wish I hadn't screwed up my back, cause I really liked that game.
With my practice shooting, I am concentrating on making every shot "dead center", not matter the distance, target size, or environmental condition present. I really press myself to make each shot count as if it were the only one I was taking for the day.
The amount of rounds sent down range are not as important to me as being certain that each round fired was the best I can do under those specfic set of circumstances.
Here is my experience at SH with 22 lr LR shooting over the last 60 days.
I started at 50 yards, and with some good advise and practice, it did not take long to see I needed to move out further. I moved out to 100 and that was very challenging intially and it took about 500-600 rounds to see that I now needed to challenge myself more.
I moved off the bench to prone a week ago, which I have never shot before and OOOHHH was I challenged again. I asked questions here and got great advise and tips. I put these to use and I fired 200 rounds in three sessions and this is the group I fired this morning
100 Y "Prone" TQ-4 first attempt at this target prone
I now see that even though I have only fired about 400 rounds prone at 100 yds, I need to move out further to keep challenging myself and improving my skill set. A lot of my improvements is due to those here at SH that encourage, advise, and challenege me to keep improving my skill set.
I am not blowing my own whistle here. There are guys here that can shoot cirlces around me all day and not even break a sweat!! I am just showing what is possible with some good advise and concentrated practice.
Aquabot
+1 GL
Although new to this Long Range (LR) shooting and LR 22 lr shooting as well, I am learning at an excellerated rate with help, suggestions, and input from those here who have and are doing it.
Here is a very good analogy of practice time, IMHO.
When I first learned to play golf, I just wanted to hit as many golf balls as possible. When I first started I really wanted to drive a "LONG WAY". I was not giving a lot of thought to placement on these drives just hit it far.
An older gentlemen came up to me as said, where are you aiming those long shots you are hitting. I really gave it no thought and said,"Oh I'M not trying to hit a target, I'm just trying to hit it far". His very brief, but poignant comment was "I can tell". Man that really made me think!!
From that point on I never hit a golf ball that I did not have specific target aimed for. My golf game improved very rapidly and it was huge lesson. Wish I hadn't screwed up my back, cause I really liked that game.
With my practice shooting, I am concentrating on making every shot "dead center", not matter the distance, target size, or environmental condition present. I really press myself to make each shot count as if it were the only one I was taking for the day.
The amount of rounds sent down range are not as important to me as being certain that each round fired was the best I can do under those specfic set of circumstances.
Here is my experience at SH with 22 lr LR shooting over the last 60 days.
I started at 50 yards, and with some good advise and practice, it did not take long to see I needed to move out further. I moved out to 100 and that was very challenging intially and it took about 500-600 rounds to see that I now needed to challenge myself more.
I moved off the bench to prone a week ago, which I have never shot before and OOOHHH was I challenged again. I asked questions here and got great advise and tips. I put these to use and I fired 200 rounds in three sessions and this is the group I fired this morning
100 Y "Prone" TQ-4 first attempt at this target prone
I now see that even though I have only fired about 400 rounds prone at 100 yds, I need to move out further to keep challenging myself and improving my skill set. A lot of my improvements is due to those here at SH that encourage, advise, and challenege me to keep improving my skill set.
I am not blowing my own whistle here. There are guys here that can shoot cirlces around me all day and not even break a sweat!! I am just showing what is possible with some good advise and concentrated practice.
Aquabot
Re: what is a realistic fundamentals training distance
Great recap AR! That's some great improving or the 60 days. Reading about your improvement/timeline helps to beleive that it may be possible for me too.
Great recap AR! That's some great improving or the 60 days. Reading about your improvement/timeline helps to beleive that it may be possible for me too.
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