What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

[m1ajunkie]

After shooting some test groups with 41-43gr of powder on every .5gr increments I selected 43gr of varget behind a 175gr smk.

My load as of now:
43 gr varget
175smk at 2.802 avg oal
wcc brass
wlr primer

Intial group after sighting in and developing loads, was four shots into 3/4" with a flier about 1.5" out at the 5 o clock position. I felt the flier was my own fault and selected 43gr to go with.

After about 150 rounds I don't know what to make of my results. I am comparing to FGMM. All shooting is at 100yds with a 20" SS lmt mws .308. Load shows no pressure signs at all, but ejection is at 1-2 o clock which I thought was supposed to be a sign of to much pressure.

ETA: Parallax is correctly set in my scope.

MY handload velocity is 2570 fps
FGMM chronied at about 2575fps so I felt my load was a good clone.

For reference fgmm group shot on day 1. Minus the two shots high and right the group is exactly 1"

Here is how my 175gr load is shooting so far

The middle 8 or so shots always look nice, but it never fails that I get 2 wierd fliers. Sometimes it is the first shot, Sometimes it is not. Would it be possible that the load is just on the verge of being good, but needs more powder? At this point I honestly don't know where the fliers come from. This is causing me lots of sad moments at the range when the groups look good, but then out of nowhere a flier hits. One point I need to mention is the trigger. It's is not as good as my geiselle ssa and I'm changing it out later this week to start with the best possible components. I am shooting prone off the bipod with a rear bag. It feels extremely solid and I can shoot other rifles well from the same position.

Here are some pics showing how I normally shoot. It's not perfect but it's better than what I'm seeing with my 175gr load.

From my sdm ar shooting 77gr smk's

My 178 amax load looks promising so far:

Am I missing something? It seems this combo has potential but groups are overall averaging 2-3" which is not good imo. I actually removed and remounted the scope before todays range session, as well as checking torque on the barrel screws. When developing the load I didn't go over 43gr as that was listed as max in my book, I feel like I need ot at this point.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Any info or tips are greatly appreciated.

 

[tomcatfan]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

I'm new into reloading but from what I have read and recently done, the max loads are what the manual authors have determined to be in thier specific test barrels with thier specific components. I have worked up a load that exceeded Hornady's max load but was below another book I have. Just go up .5 gr at a time and check for pressure signs. Keep an eye on pressure signs and you should be good to go.

Also as an FYI my accuracy did get better as powder increased. I am shooting varget.

 

[TheGerman]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

There's nothing 'wrong' with your loads; they simply aren't the right load for your rifle. I think you're hung up on trying to clone the FGMM round; also just because the velocity is close, doesn't mean the rounds are close.

Obviously I don't have the internal ballistics of your load in front of me, but for all you know you could inadvertently be loading your rounds into your rifles 'scatter node' (where the shock wave is at the muzzle when your bullet is there as well) by using the velocity of another cartridge/round as a gauge.

Start working up other loads and move from there; don't get stuck chasing a particular load.

A 2-3 inch group out of a precision rifle in 308 is a blatant indicator that if all outside variables are removed (your rifle, you as a shooter, etc)that the round is not performing.

More on the 'shock wave' and optimal barrel time here:

http://www.the-long-family.com/optimal%20barrel%20time.htm

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGerman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's nothing 'wrong' with your loads; they simply aren't the right load for your rifle. I think you're hung up on trying to clone the FGMM round; also just because the velocity is close, doesn't mean the rounds are close.

Obviously I don't have the internal ballistics of your load in front of me, but for all you know you could inadvertently be loading your rounds into your rifles 'scatter node' (where the shock wave is at the muzzle when your bullet is there as well) by using the velocity of another cartridge/round as a gauge.

Start working up other loads and move from there; don't get stuck chasing a particular load.

A 2-3 inch group out of a precision rifle in 308 is a blatant indicator that if all outside variables are removed (your rifle, you as a shooter, etc)that the round is not performing.

More on the 'shock wave' and optimal barrel time here:

http://www.the-long-family.com/optimal%20barrel%20time.htm </div></div>

Thats why I am thinking that I may need to try a bit more powder up to 45gr max and work up to it.

I am new to reloading and I thought it would be good to start by "cloning" the fgmm, but after these groups and trying different rests at the range I am sure I am doing the best I can. I haven't shot any 10 round groups with the 178 amax's yet, but I feel I can shoot groups at least that good so thats tells me for sure the 175's need work.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

The OP could have a multitude of problems. The only thing for sure is that bullets are hitting where the rifle was pointed. Only by plotting calls and strikes in a data book will proper shooter/target analysis be possible. Consider too that the problems here are not likely exclusive to the gun, ammunition, or shooter. In addition to a data book, a chronograph will come to the OP's aid to better understand the consistency of ammunition. The OP needs to learn how to analyse. Even the most skilled here cannot be expected to discern the OP's source/s of error by observing the OP's targets or listening to his complaint.

 

[Cologgi]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

You Shouldnt need anymore than 44 grains of varget. Last weekend as I was working up my loads I shot a 2.3" group at 300 yards using the 178 smk. I would not go anything over 44.5. start at 43.5 and work 5 round groups up all the way to 44.3 and see how that does. Also, I am shooting an LMT 16" CL barrel so you should have better results than mine. You should be making a 3/4" group at 100 if everything is right on your gun.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Sterling shooter,

Do you have any links handy so I can read up on how to correctly take notes at the range? I am new to reloading and precision rifles shooting so I would like to start off right. All that's happening now is I get frustrated when shooting the .308 and just swap to my .223 for a while. When I swap, everything is exactly the same, both rifles share the same bipod, same rear bag setup, I just pick up one rifle and put down the other. I go from shooting 2" groups at 100yds with the .308 to roughly 1" at 100yds with the .223.

When developing the load for my .223ar, I just kind of "happened up" on a load that I feel shoots very well. I don't feel like the problem is the rifle, my groups with fgmm are as good as I feel I can shoot.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling shooter,

Do you have any links handy so I can read up on how to correctly take notes at the range? I am new to reloading and precision rifles shooting so I would like to start off right. All that's happening now is I get frustrated when shooting the .308 and just swap to my .223 for a while. When I swap, everything is exactly the same, both rifles share the same bipod, same rear bag setup, I just pick up one rifle and put down the other. I go from shooting 2" groups at 100yds with the .308 to roughly 1" at 100yds with the .223.

When developing the load for my .223ar, I just kind of "happened up" on a load that I feel shoots very well. I don't feel like the problem is the rifle, my groups with fgmm are as good as I feel I can shoot. </div></div>

I'll get back to you later today, I'm working right now, but, I think later toady I'll be able to dig out something for you.

 

[jeo556]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling shooter,

Do you have any links handy so I can read up on how to correctly take notes at the range? I am new to reloading and precision rifles shooting so I would like to start off right. All that's happening now is I get frustrated when shooting the .308 and just swap to my .223 for a while. When I swap, everything is exactly the same, both rifles share the same bipod, same rear bag setup, I just pick up one rifle and put down the other. I go from shooting 2" groups at 100yds with the .308 to roughly 1" at 100yds with the .223.

When developing the load for my .223ar, I just kind of "happened up" on a load that I feel shoots very well. I don't feel like the problem is the rifle, my groups with fgmm are as good as I feel I can shoot. </div></div>


I'm interested as well. I just purchased a databook for my new rifle and i wish that I was more informed on exactly how to use it.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

M1Ajunkie, are you shooting these out of an M1A or an AR? Yes, you do need to find an accurate load for your rifle, but you also need to keep from beating the rifle to death chasing accuracy with a hot load.

What's the twist rate on your barrel? Your barrel may just not like the 175s. Have you tried any 168s?

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M1Ajunkie, are you shooting these out of an M1A or an AR? Yes, you do need to find an accurate load for your rifle, but you also need to keep from beating the rifle to death chasing accuracy with a hot load.

What's the twist rate on your barrel? Your barrel may just not like the 175s. Have you tried any 168s? </div></div>

Shooting these through an lmt mws. Would a load between 43 and 44grs be to much for an ar?

I have not had a chance to try anything other than 175gr stuff. I started out with the 175 thinking it would be a nice place to start to get good results. I am thinking now that if playing with the powder charge doesn't help I will try different weight bullets. I am planning to fill some sand bags and get back to the range next tuesday to eliminate the bipod variable.

 

[sinister]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Swap the bipod for a bag.

What dies and press?

Are you trimming your cases?

Is your powder thrown or weighed and trickled?

Have you tried 168s?

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Swap the bipod for a bag.

What dies and press?

Are you trimming your cases?

Is your powder thrown or weighed and trickled?

Have you tried 168s? </div></div>

I am planning to fill up some old jeans legs and make bags. Like mentioned I think it's best just to eliminate the bipod for the time being.

Using lee dies in a hornady lock and load press.

I am trimming cases to 2.005" as well as dechamfering the mouth.

Using my hornady powder dispenser to drop roughly .5gr powder less than I want, then trickle up to the desired amount.

No 168's yet, I am thinking of ordering some to try out.

 

[CSAR]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Have you run FGMM through the rifle again? Maybe take a box them with you next time to use as a "control" for the load testing?

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CSAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you run FGMM through the rifle again? Maybe take a box them with you next time to use as a "control" for the load testing? </div></div>

I ordered 60 rounds from palmetto this morning. I am hoping it will make it here by monday, so I can use it tuesday.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Sinister's advice is golden, the sandbag and 168's.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Make sure the action screws are torqued to spec.
Where does you cold bore shot(CBS), aka first shot, go into your group?
How much run-out do you have on your bullets? Should be no more that a T.I.R. of .003"
What's your OAL for your load?
Cheers,
LG

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lumpy grits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make sure the action screws are torqued to spec.
Where does you cold bore shot(CBS), aka first shot, go into your group?
How much run-out do you have on your bullets? Should be no more that a T.I.R. of .003"
What's your OAL for your load?
Cheers,
LG </div></div>

The first shot of the day yesterday went roughly 1" above the main grouping. I don't have good data on this yet as I have only had 3 true cold bore shots and the first two I wasn't paying attention to. One thing I notice when I have a warm bore and I shoot the first shot is that shot ends up perfect almost every time. After recoil, I am able to look at it and see that it is exactly where the crosshairs were when the shot broke. It's the other rounds that don't give me the same kind of reaction.

I am not able to measure run out so I don't know.

I am only able to measure oal length with a set of dial calipers and the smk tips are tricky. I am at 2.802" for an average oal. They are running between 2.798-2.805 or so. I get confused on the differences of c.o.a.l and oal, so I am guessing this is the measurement you are asking about.

 

[flashhole]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Clean your gun.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Some questions. Did you work up to 43.0 grs of powder or did you copy a load? I work up my powder load and select the best shot group. Then I work up and down from there to get shot group as tight as possible. Next question. Do you have a bullet comparator for your micrometer? I use a comparator to measure all my seating depths. The bullet length is not consistent due to the meplat and you need the comparator to check seating depth is consistent. The comparator will measure cartridge length based on the ogive which is a consistent point of reference. Once I have the powder charge figured out I play with the seating depth to fine tune. Here's what I'm putting down the pipe: 175 SMK / Lapua Brass / CCI BR2 / 43.5 grs Varget / COAL 2.243".
This load shoots well in my GAP Rock with 22" barrel and my custom build with 24" barrel. Both guns have Rock Creek SS, 5R, M24 contour barrels and I'm getting 2603 fps out of the 22". Good luck.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

I did work up to 43grs. I started at 41.5 and went from there. Shooting 5 shot groups, I selected 43gr because it had 4 shots within about 3/4" with a flier at the 5 clock position about 1.5" from the main group. The other groups were all about 2" overall with noting really great until the 43grs. Then after that initial day of testing I have continued loading to 43gr and haven't had the results I am looking for yet. Thats what is making me feel like I may have stopped short in development. I stopped at 43gr because that was the max in my book and I don't want to get off on the wrong foot. I am seeing though that most people are loading a little more powder with their 175gr load.

Here is the pic of 43gr of varget from load development, I thought the flier was all me at the time but now I am thinking it was a sign of things to come:

I do not have a comparator yet. I have been reading and see that is something really useful for those shooting smk's.

 

[springer01]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

I recommend using the ladder test to find a load that suits your rifle.

Here is some info that might help Ladder Test

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

You'll find the comparator is good for every bullet. The only time I measure to the tip of the bullet is to insure it will fit in the magazine. The other thing to watch is your scale calibration. Here's a link for the comparator I use.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=231904

 

[Rover31]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

have you done a ladder or an OCW test? find the 'node'!

 

[Swan]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

.5gr increments are too large, redo with .2-.3gr increments.

 

[jeepwilson]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

You can do the ladder test if you want it can be useful.But I would clean the crap out of that thing and make sure it is clean.If you shine a light from the muzzle end at about 6-8 inches away on a 45* angle and your riflings look like they are gold inlaid it is not clean.After you get it clean get the factory ammo and shoot a 5 shot group documenting where each shot hits.Then I would clean it again unless it seems to get tighter as you are shooting.Then go back to the handload that shot the best and try it again.Then I would start moving the bullet towards the lands .010 and shoot another then move it away and shoot some more.You will be shocked at just playing with OAL will change impact like it does.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

I know this is something I just need to shoot it and see what happens, but I have a question about cleaning.

I have always heard that after cleaning, it will take the barrel a few "fouling" shots to be shooting good again. Is this true?

For example, I was planning to not clean it before my next outing but now it sounds like I would benefit by cleaning even though it only has 100 rounds through it since the last cleaning. Can I expect to clean the rifle and then shoot a group with fgmm and have those first 5 rounds shoot just as good as if I shot 20 rounds prior to shooting that group?

Of course there are all kinds of other variables in play, but assume all the others are taken care of and I am having a perfect day as the shooter.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

O.K. I'm back; and, having read all posts to date, I sense you are not organized enough to appraise much of anything regarding proper execution of the firing tasks. Ammunition is the least of your problems. At the distance you're shooting and with your platform, most any standard load that's not defective, could see a talented shooter to a zero displacement result.

Now, since it appears you can follow-through on your shots, perhaps, you may want to begin there with your analysis, calling the shot as well as the strike. When a shot is on call, but not where aimed what does that mean? Earlier you alluded to it having something to do with the ammunition. That's wrong, a shot on call but not right-in-there is all about an inconsistent position. Knowing this allows you to think about what aspect of the position was not consistent. See what I mean, right now your ignorance of basic shooter/target analysis is causing you to chase your tail, where any improvement will come so slow as to either cause you to give up your interest is shooting, or to get professional help (coaching). I'm not putting you down, in fact, I'm impressed you are using your brain to find solutions to the problems you've encountered. Add proper analysis to your regimen and, I'm certain, you'll get to the highest plateaus of good shooting.

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">O.K. I'm back; and, having read all posts to date, I sense you are not organized enough to appraise much of anything regarding proper execution of the firing tasks. Ammunition is the least of your problems. At the distance you're shooting and with your platform, most any standard load that's not defective, could see a talented shooter to a zero displacement result.

Now, since it appears you can follow-through on your shots, perhaps, you may want to begin there with your analysis, calling the shot as well as the strike. When a shot is on call, but not where aimed what does that mean? Earlier you alluded to it having something to do with the ammunition. That's wrong, a shot on call but not right-in-there is all about an inconsistent position. Knowing this allows you to think about what aspect of the position was not consistent. See what I mean, right now your ignorance of basic shooter/target analysis is causing you to chase your tail, where any improvement will come so slow as to either cause you to give up your interest is shooting, or to get professional help (coaching). I'm not putting you down, in fact, I'm impressed you are using your brain to find solutions to the problems you've encountered. Add proper analysis to your regimen and, I;m certain, you'll get to the highest plateaus of good shooting.

</div></div>

Sterling shooter,
Thanks for your advice. My goal is to come to this forum to learn how to shoot correctly.

The one issue I need the most advice on is for the time being should I stick with the 175gr load and 43gr varget? I can order some 168gr bullets to load but that would be a week or so before I could use them, and I hate to change out components in the middle of learning. I would love to do all my learning/practice with fgmm, but that is a little costly.

Is the ladder test effective at 100yds? I can't make it to the 300yd range as often to run a ladder test so all my testing takes place at 100.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">O.K. I'm back; and, having read all posts to date, I sense you are not organized enough to appraise much of anything regarding proper execution of the firing tasks. Ammunition is the least of your problems. At the distance you're shooting and with your platform, most any standard load that's not defective, could see a talented shooter to a zero displacement result.

Now, since it appears you can follow-through on your shots, perhaps, you may want to begin there with your analysis, calling the shot as well as the strike. When a shot is on call, but not where aimed what does that mean? Earlier you alluded to it having something to do with the ammunition. That's wrong, a shot on call but not right-in-there is all about an inconsistent position. Knowing this allows you to think about what aspect of the position was not consistent. See what I mean, right now your ignorance of basic shooter/target analysis is causing you to chase your tail, where any improvement will come so slow as to either cause you to give up your interest is shooting, or to get professional help (coaching). I'm not putting you down, in fact, I'm impressed you are using your brain to find solutions to the problems you've encountered. Add proper analysis to your regimen and, I;m certain, you'll get to the highest plateaus of good shooting.

</div></div>

Sterling shooter,
Thanks for your advice. My goal is to come to this forum to learn how to shoot correctly.

The one issue I need the most advice on is for the time being should I stick with the 175gr load and 43gr varget? I can order some 168gr bullets to load but that would be a week or so before I could use them, and I hate to change out components in the middle of learning. I would love to do all my learning/practice with fgmm, but that is a little costly.

Is the ladder test effective at 100yds? I can't make it to the 300yd range as often to run a ladder test so all my testing takes place at 100. </div></div>

175's kick hard; and, they don't become "better" than the 168 until your shooting is at LR with an appropriate rifle . Shooting them though your 20 inch barrel gun and expecting a good result, at any distance, is not assured. That's why Sinister recommended you switch.

Analysis of ammunition, for you, right now, should be about measurement that does not rely on your Marksmanship. Get a chronograph and shoot for ammunition with a low ES and SD. Topped off with a good bullet, these two figures will give you a very, very good indication of a good load, which it will be with massaged brass from the same lot. Also, trimming and proper set up of sizing die are very important to a good result, as, again, earlier alluded to by Sinister.

 

[Rover31]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is the ladder test effective at 100yds? I can't make it to the 300yd range as often to run a ladder test so all my testing takes place at 100. </div></div>

In my experience no! Most of the 'real' shooters here will tell you 300 is the min.
If you want to know your rifle at distance you need to shoot it at that distance.

Now you could do the OCW at 100. That would give you some useful data. Chrono at all?

 

[kickinneon]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

my Remington did horrible with sierra 175gr hpbt's and varget until i up to around 45grans of powder and then i started getting groups under 1" and At 46grans i get my best groups of 1/2" of better. My best group to date is .338 5 shots @ 100 yards.

46 grans of varget
oal 2.800
cci primers
cases are full length sized and trimmed every time

 

[Lumpy Grits]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

SMK's like to "jump" and Varget likes to be load toward it's max.
Cheers,
LG

 

[Fieldman_.308]

Re: What is going on with my .308 loads? Lots of pics

Hey guys, I'm new as well but I've learned a few things I feel could be helpful.

1:Find out as much information on your rifle as possible. Info that will be helpful would be your twist rate. Based off that you should be able to determine an appropriate bullet for your rifle and what you want to do with it. I recommend using a stability calculator like JBM's(heres a link http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi)

2:Once you've determined a bullet then you need to find out what your oal is for that bullet to YOUR rifle. This will help a lot when loading and determining max loads.

3:When working up loads I recommend you use legit sources like Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, etc. I like to start with the minimum loads and work up slowly. With the .308 win I normally start with min and work up in .5 gr increments. I will then take the load that groups best and break it down in smaller increments until I get the best results. Try different powders. You'll find that powder your rifle cartridge prefers, or its "node".

4:Start a routine for your range time. Do you like to clean your rifle before going but your concerned about it needing fouling then prepare a few loads to do just that. What ever you decide be consistant and write everything down!!

This is just a few steps to think about(definitely not all of them). I'm still learning as well and if I wrote something wrong in here someone please inform me, but I feel after reading these posts that this could be helpful for you so good luck and keep shooting!