What is going on with my GAP rig?!
- Thread starter Gjb89
- Start date
I have no complaints with them using thread locker. Problem is they applied too much and it was up all over the shoulder and washers. Yea I was a little disappointed when I found out they used washers instead of having it clocked to the shoulder.
I can take some when I get home.
"I have no complaints with them using thread locker. Problem is they applied too much and it was up all over the shoulder and washers. Yea I was a little disappointed when I found out they used washers instead of having it clocked to the shoulder."
I don't understand why they wouldn't clock it given the price if the rifle.
I don't understand why they wouldn't clock it given the price if the rifle.
See below. Bottom one is in the worse shape. According to TBAC the brake only needs to be a couple thousands off in order for it to get off center. Keep in mind I’m shooting a 6.5 projectile through a 6.5 can and not a .30.
Not the first person to say that either.
Did you ask them to add the brake after the barrel was already through CNC? That is the only reason I could see using shims like that.
If this were my rig, moving forward, just lock down the CB brake inside of the can and treat it like a direct thread.
If this were my rig, moving forward, just lock down the CB brake inside of the can and treat it like a direct thread.
Not sure. I believe I sent them the brake a couple weeks after placing an order for the rifle which I believe took 5 months to build. They knew a brake was going to be coming to them though.
I’m glad you got it sorted out, I’ll look into which One of my guys did the final assembly and talk to him most likely he over torqued it with the wrong sized shim and it smashed it. (My guess anyway). What I really want to know is who at GAP told you it was the can and wasn’t willing to help you. Please Email me at george@
gaprecision.net.
Glad the Rifle is shooting good for you now. I hope you can accept my appology for the lack of service and believe me it’s not the norm. We have a good team but in this case it looks like the ball was dropped.
George
gaprecision.net.
Glad the Rifle is shooting good for you now. I hope you can accept my appology for the lack of service and believe me it’s not the norm. We have a good team but in this case it looks like the ball was dropped.
George
I see why you would be frustrated. That said, like others have advised, talk to George. All of my interactions with him have been very positive. He is a genuinely nice guy, and I believe he cares about his customers. I would be frustrated as you are/were, but don’t write GA Precision off until you talk to George.
This would be enough to piss me off. In my mind, this is unacceptable for a custom built gun. It should have been timed right to the shoulder for that kind of money. This is entirely someone being lazy. Peel washers are only to be used on rifles that have already been done when using a new muzzle device. In other words, peel washers are to be used to make things work that weren’t necessarily built specific to each other. A custom gun such as this for this kind of money should be machined to match up correctly, that’s kind of one of the points of going custom. Personally, if I was GAP I’d pay to have it shipped back, and re-thread that barrel for it to matchup and be timed correctly, but that’s just me. No way I’d let a rifle I built go out using a peel washers to get the brake timed right. On an AR or something fine, but not on a custom built rifle like this. I’m actually surprised to hear about something like this coming out of GAP since all the ones I have ever heard about or personally shot were topnotch. Maybe it was a newbie! Haha.
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Stupid question: if you use a CB, and always shoot the rifle suppressed, does it matter if the CB is “timed” so that the ports are exactly at 90 and 270 degrees?
TBAC had me put the brake on without washers and it was obviously not clocked and I asked if it mattered and he said it didn’t.
No, if you never planned to shoot unsuppressed then it wouldn’t matter. But, I would rather my stuff be set up correctly, personally. Shoot it with just the brake once in the prone position in the grass and see what happens when it’s not timed correctly lol!
Hi,
I am glad you figured it out. When the peel washers get really thin, it gets tougher to make sure they don't fold over when tightening them down. I personally doubt that extra loctite caused the problem, but I guess it's possible. It doesn't take much error at the shoulder to cause an alignment problem at the muzzle, IE, less than one thousandth off at the shoulder can cause a catastrophic misalignment at the can's exit aperture.
Typically when a brake is known to be on the build before the muzzle is threaded, while the barrel is in the lathe for muzzle threading, its shoulder is cut so that the muzzle device in question clocks with no peel washer. It is a really really bad idea to "clock the brake to the barrel" because that involves removing material from the brake and it is almost impossible to do this after the fact without screwing up the brake's alignment between its bore and the plane defined by the rear mating surface.
In this case, it looks like the barrel was already coated (paint on the muzzle shoulder) by the time the brake was installed, so using our peel washer would be the proper way to do it.
Hope this helps. I am glad you reached out to us. We deal with alignment all the time and have quite a bit of data on the most likely causes given any particular setup. If you or anyone else has any questions, please don't hesitate to give us a call. We read emails and get voicemails over the weekend and we'll get back to you for issues like this ASAP.
thanks
I am glad you figured it out. When the peel washers get really thin, it gets tougher to make sure they don't fold over when tightening them down. I personally doubt that extra loctite caused the problem, but I guess it's possible. It doesn't take much error at the shoulder to cause an alignment problem at the muzzle, IE, less than one thousandth off at the shoulder can cause a catastrophic misalignment at the can's exit aperture.
Typically when a brake is known to be on the build before the muzzle is threaded, while the barrel is in the lathe for muzzle threading, its shoulder is cut so that the muzzle device in question clocks with no peel washer. It is a really really bad idea to "clock the brake to the barrel" because that involves removing material from the brake and it is almost impossible to do this after the fact without screwing up the brake's alignment between its bore and the plane defined by the rear mating surface.
In this case, it looks like the barrel was already coated (paint on the muzzle shoulder) by the time the brake was installed, so using our peel washer would be the proper way to do it.
Hope this helps. I am glad you reached out to us. We deal with alignment all the time and have quite a bit of data on the most likely causes given any particular setup. If you or anyone else has any questions, please don't hesitate to give us a call. We read emails and get voicemails over the weekend and we'll get back to you for issues like this ASAP.
thanks
Gjb, if you need an extra peel washer to get it put together right yourself, just shoot me an email with your address and we'll get it sent out
Agreed. The question is, why was everything not timed beforehand. It shouldn’t have been an afterthought and could have been taken care of. If Said builder has all the parts to time correctly when they are doing the machining part of things then there is zero reason why one should have to use a peel washer. Every custom rifle I have with a brake was timed just right. It’s hard for me to imagine a reputable builder like GAP not doing this. It’s probably just and oversight on someone’s part but if it were me I’d have to send it back for that kind of money. Is it going to impact the performance when the peel washers are done right? No, but it’s kind of the principle in the matter here. If this was a rifle already built and then he wanted to add this brake and suppressor then fine, but in a case where the rifle was being built there just isn’t any excuse imo. I wouldn’t want my reputation botched because of something that simple. With that being said, we all have our days!!! It’s how it’s handled after that makes all the difference!
Thanks Zak, fortunately I have plenty floating around my house. TBAC’s customer service has far exceeded my expectations and I will remember that the next time I’m in the market for another can.
Yes, but that’s purely cosmetic. Nothing to worry about.
Well just to give everyone following this thread an update. This weekend I reattached the brake and clocked it with a brand new washer. Hand threaded the brake till it was tight and tightened it up with a wrench the last 15 degrees making sure not to over tighten. Took it to the range today thinking everything would be good and ended up getting a small muzzle strike.
TBAC has a feeling that the culprit may be combination of the washers and the shoulder. Packaging up the barreled action and can and sending it to TBAC to get this resolved. Keeping fingers crossed for a quick fix. I have a hunt I was planning on using this rifle & can for.
TBAC has a feeling that the culprit may be combination of the washers and the shoulder. Packaging up the barreled action and can and sending it to TBAC to get this resolved. Keeping fingers crossed for a quick fix. I have a hunt I was planning on using this rifle & can for.
Interesting suggestion. So do you generally account for the difference between the bore (land to land) diameter and groove diameter when checking the rod clearance through the can baffles and aperture?
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I think most suppressor baffles/endcaps have about 0.030" to 0.040" of clearance from their specified caliber, so a 30 cal endcap should measure something like 0.348" or so. For my 6.5mm caliber barrels I use a 0.2500" rod, for 30 cal I use the 0.2813" rod. When you run it down through the suppressor/barrel you'll immediately see if you have enough clearance at the endcap. It will either be nearly perfectly centered, close to touching on one side, or making full contact. See attached illustration.
For those following TBAC received the barreled action and the can. After taking a look at it the conclusion is that they found that the barrel has no relief cut which is causing the brake to stop short of the shoulder (see silver ring close to the shoulder in picture 1). The threads have some taper to them, where they can get a mic in and they measure good but the go gage stops pretty short with a solid stop (see picture 2). Picture 3 is with the brake and no washer and is torqued, notice the gap. Picture 3 is the brake and a peel washer and is hand tighten to a solid stop. There is also a slight strike on the end cap of the can that needs to be fixed.
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That will definitely cause problems. Thread tool retract likes to taper out. There should definitely be a thread relief groove at the back especially when threading to a shoulder.
I do cnc threading (non gun) as part of my day job.
Yea I’m buying those rods that character0 recommended. Quick easy way to get a alignment confirmation.
Just notified George about their findings. I’m sure he will make it right. I’m looking at being out $260 + shipping to fix the threads and can if I handle this myself.
I have a GAP and I have a TBAC. All companies make mistakes from time to time, regardless of the cost of their goods. I will say that my GAP has been back to the mothership a few times. Once for different parts that I wanted to use, once for damage I caused, and once for minor breakage that GAP caused. In all cases, they took care of the work fast and professionally, and in the case of the minor breakage ( a base screw was not trimmed correctly and was barely engaged), they handled the work fast and free of charge, "under warranty." They even helped me twice on guns that they didn't build, but spent significant time with me on both projects.
My TBAC has never caused a moments problem, but it didn't always meet my exact needs from year to year. Zac talked to me over the phone multiple times over the years to give me options for how to make it work better. I swear I don't think he ever looked at his watch. My can now works better for me because of their willingness to help a customer use their products in the best way possible, for them.
I understand being annoyed at a bad response from a company, but I would say that both companies are gtg, and are very customer oriented as part of their "corporate culture."
My TBAC has never caused a moments problem, but it didn't always meet my exact needs from year to year. Zac talked to me over the phone multiple times over the years to give me options for how to make it work better. I swear I don't think he ever looked at his watch. My can now works better for me because of their willingness to help a customer use their products in the best way possible, for them.
I understand being annoyed at a bad response from a company, but I would say that both companies are gtg, and are very customer oriented as part of their "corporate culture."
For everyone else's reference,
https://thunderbeastarms.com/tech/thread-specifications
If the original washer photo from page 1 is looked at just the right way, you can see there's no thread relief cut. Otherwise it kind of looks like a shadow in that picture.
https://thunderbeastarms.com/tech/thread-specifications
If the original washer photo from page 1 is looked at just the right way, you can see there's no thread relief cut. Otherwise it kind of looks like a shadow in that picture.
