What is needed in the tactical market.

I

Ian A. Kelbly

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Feb 13, 2009
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#1
What do tactical shooters want in a rifle? How can rifles be improved for your uses? Do you feel a package rifle or fully custom ordering system is best for you? Please let me know all that you guys can about your experience and needs in rifles.

Thank you,
Ian A. Kelbly
 
#2
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

That REALLY varies from shooter to shooter. I can't even get my brain wrapped around that question!
crazy.gif
 
#3
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

It does vary from shooter to shooter. But if everyone gives their thought on what they want i can get a good sample of information to look at.
 
#4
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

There are very few, if any, package rifles that will fit that bill (unless they are essentially a custom i.e GAP, TacOp, etc).

It also depends on the market. If you are marketing to tactical competitors, the best rifle will ikely be different that to the military.

My personal list for a tactical rifle would be:

.5 MOA accurate (1 MOA really would be an absolute minimum for a tactical rifle).

.308, there are better calibers out there for competition and better calibers for threat engagement, but .308 has a lot of advantages as a "do all" caliber.

Tough and repeatable. It has to be able to take a beating and still function when needed.

Magazine fed.

Oh, and a package rifle HAS to be fully adjustable. If your are going to market to different shooters they have to be able to dial in the rifle.

Yeah, I think I just described an AI. Again, technically not a custom, but similar in build and tolerances.
 
#7
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

I would pretty much agree with gugubica, and suggest that any "testing" be conducted by 3 different people in 3 different locales over a 3 year period.

I am also wondering how hard it would be to put a plate into a can with explosives

33p6984.jpg


that could be camouflaged as a concrete curb

27ybplh.jpg


and then be set off with a car key fob, allowing the plate to become a large slug for penetration

t8994z.jpg
 
#8
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

The rifle needs to be:

reliable,
Durable, able to withstand a 3m drop
No match chambers yet accurate, it has to work dirty tight match chambers have no business in a tactical rifle
Excellent barrel, a tight bore .298 so the length can be shorter, under 24" under 22" even better.
some kind of brake for a suppressor option
Adjustable stock that is still ambidextrous it needs to be shot from both sides just as easy without have to modify it to do so.
magazine feed
a good solid trigger, I recommend a Huber tactical trigger - 2 stage.
short action caliber, even switch barrel, doesn't need to be 308 but needs to be in that family or very close.

its very AI like but not at the same time.
 
#10
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Also to add to what gugubica said.

A $2500 price point!!!We need a medium priced rifle.

We can order custom rifles in the $3500 range already from many other custom rifle builders.Or we can get FN's/Remmy and the like for $1500 or so.
You could save money to meet this price point by designing your own laminated wood tactical style stock line.
Also if you could get a bolt action to work with one of the M1A,FNFAL,DPMS 20 round magazines you would really have something interesting.
I know I would like to see a rifle in 6x47L,243win and the popular.264 calibers with the correct twists for 115's and 140's that is waiting on the shelf and can be shipped NOW!!!!.Instead of having to wait for 6 months.

Steve

 
#11
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

You could start with a Panda Big Bore or a Grizzly II, but add RBRP and LBLP as options. Tolerances/clearances would need to be loosened up a bit to ensure reliable feeding and operation under adverse conditions. If a Panda, then replace the Davidson style dovetail on top with a machined-in Picatinny rail and offer the rail with 15, 20 and 25 MOA slant. If the Grizzly, drill and tap the scope base holes at 8/48 instead of 6/42. It needs to be compatible with available bottom metal magazine systems such as Badger, Seekins and Surgeon/KMW. Most stockmakers already inlet for your actions, so altering the inlet for the mag system shouldn't be too hard.

Do look at currently available chassis and tube gun systems also. It could be that an action purpose built for one of those applications might really bring that genre forward. For instance, since the Panda is essentially an aluminum sleeve with an inner steel receiver, perhaps the sleeve configuration could be altered to mate up with a chassis of similar design/appearance like the Ultima Ratio or similar rifles - in other words, not look so much like a barreled action that has been bolted onto a chassis.

Most importantly though, it needs to be assembled so that configurations that are supposed to be parallel are parallel and those that are supposed to be square are square. Even a SAAMI or CIP or even NATO spec chamber will produce excellent accuracy as long as the chamber and bore are concentric and other relationships are true.

So - basically repeating what has been said - Accurate, Reliable and Adaptable.
 
#15
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Here is about everything I would want to see in a Tactical Rifle. (This is Lizzardking308's Badger, if he doesn't want me to pimp his picture, I will take it down). I know it is impossible to build one rifle for everyone, some may not like the AICS, but this rifle is near perfection in my mind, and fills all the requirements above, folding ambi stock, switchable barrels, rugged, accurate, adjustable:

M2008PhotoSmall.jpg
 
#18
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Who are you targeting?

Are you trying to market to professional shooters or hobbyists?

For the professionals:

Simple (because most cops and grunts are not gun guys)
Durable (because cops and grunts can break just about anything)
Accurate (enough to do the job)
Cheap (so departments will buy it)

Switch barrel is not a requirement.
Adjustable Ergo's are.
Ambidextrous operation is a plus.
It should be able to live in the dirt.
It should be able to pack down to a reasonable size (20" w/folding stock would be nice)

Good luck building it.

For the hobbyists, it doesn't matter what it is. If you get the right competitors or "operators" to hold it and pose for a picture or video clip then it will sell by the boatload.

Just my $.02
 
#19
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

I personally would like to see shorter/lighter setups, as I've (and most of the people I shoot with) gotten away from the long/heavy builds. Maximizing velocity via a tight bore would be an interesting idea, and it seem Lowlight's has panned out well for him.

I think cost (unfortunately) would likely do much to influence your sales. The $3k+ market is quite saturated with many excellent options. Under $1500 puts you competing with Remmy/FN/etc How bout trying to just build something in the middle, that would prove a good reliable base? Fast twist barrels, straight/square machining, and the ability to take advantage of the economies of scale that Remmy parts/accessories possess?

Like Lonewolf was saying, all this would depend on your market. What group(s) are you going after primarily?
 
#20
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Hon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally would like to see shorter/lighter setups, as I've (and most of the people I shoot with) gotten away from the long/heavy builds. </div></div>

I agree. It seems that despite the fact more shooters are moving towards 6.5x47, .243 etc the systems that house these calibres remain unchanged. There is much to be said for being familiar with a system, I'm sure that has dictated why I see pictures on this site of collections that have multiple calibres all setup identically.

However It does seem a bit like putting a motorcycle engine in a truck.

I'd love to see more compact, lightweight (relatively) options on the tactical market.

 
#21
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

So my $.02 on the ideal tactical rifle .

I'd like to see a McMillan A5 like stock with an adjustable cheekweld like Terry's ACP Loggerhead and adjustible LOP, Surgeon like tactical action with integral 20 MOA rail that accommodates AI AW double stack 10 round magazines, but with an "action on frame" mount (versus a bedded action, something similar to the AI rifles) to allow easy barrel changes and complete rifle disassembly using Home Depot tools. Must have a complete free float barrel of a Bartlein, Krieger, or similar premium brand. Bolt knob must be beefy like the KMW knob. Must take a standard Remington or Rifle Basix trigger with same safety setup. Stock must be inlet for a quick grip to extract the removable mag (like the Sentinel and new Surgeon bottom metal).

Perhaps if the KMW, Surgeon, and AI rifles mated, this would be the result. That said, if you engineer something like this, you've got my order......

 
#22
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Hazardus,
we can make you a rifle on an A-5 stock with a square action that has integral 20 moa picatinny or dovetail rails. With a krieger barrel and jewell trigger. We have the flexibility to build just about anything and would love to build a rifle like this. We have also ordered a J Allen Enterprises stock to build a prototype on. We can add a CDI precision bottom metal with an AICS magazine in it. Check us out at kelbly.com
 
#23
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

As far as our pillar bedded rifles they can be disassembled in a matter of a minute by unscrewing three screws 2 are 3/16 allen screws and 1 is 5/64 allen screw.
 
#24
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

My ideal rifle would be a .308 bolt action, 1/2 moa accurate, quick detach suppressor, 20" barrel, AICS folding stock.

I have a 700 LTR 20" in a AICS 2.0 with a threaded suppessor and a NF 3.5-15. Not half moa capable, but works great/perfect for me from 50-700+ yards.
 
#25
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

One feature found on the Desert Tactical rifle I find very appealing is its ability to go from 308 to 338 on a single platform. I would love to see this on a non bullpup rifle. The savings in glass alone make this a super attractive feature.


Shane
 
#26
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

I also would like to see shorter, lighter setups.

I take special note of the L-W specialty lightweight barrels.

I think that the trend toward heavier and heavier tactical rifles is a bad one, and feel that a field rifle should resemble a hunting rifle in a lot more aspects than is currently in fashion.

I think that a lower boreline relative to cheek height can reconfigure recoil to reduce/eliminate muzzle flip, permitting quicker target reacquisition and followup. I speculate that such a configuration can permit the cheekrest to cantilever over the rear of the action, resulting in a shorter overall length, ala bullpups. Scope mounting would need to be shifted further forward to accomodate eye relief.

Although this would move bolt and trigger manipulation rearward, I believe this could be acclimated by the shooter without significant penalty.

I like the idea of a detachable magazine, but believe that anything more than five rounds would need to be double stack to prevent excessive protrusion beneath the rifle.

I am utterly baffled why detachable magazine setups cannot be configured to use M14 and M16 magazines. They are more reasonably priced, and more readily available.

I look at the SKS magazine configuration and speculate that something that opens SKS-like similar to a clamshell and accepts two loaded 5rd strippers sideby from the underside, and is spring driven from beneath when the clamshell is closed would be an interesting concept.

I think that a firearm that does not carry it own cleaning implements ala battle rifles is not a complete system.

I think that Montana Marine's current thread on sling usage needs to be something the rifle's configuration allows.

I also think that a similar method which uses body weight supported by the sling and bipod to eliminate muzzle flip can allow the shooter to follow their trace and see their impact, and that it needs to be possible with the rifle's confguration.

Forend and buttstock bottom contour should be straight and parallel to boreline to allow bag riding.

Greg
 
#28
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One feature found on the Desert Tactical rifle I find very appealing is its ability to go from 308 to 338 on a single platform. I would love to see this on a non bullpup rifle. The savings in glass alone make this a super attractive feature.
Shane</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 For a Switch Barrel system in a more conventional setup ie not bullpup</div></div>


Guys they are out there already!! You just have to broaden your research
smile.gif


Thanks
 
#29
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

........this crowd is very VERY short on institutional memory.....and do not seem to think out of the box at all...


traditional innovation comes from those that pound many rounds down range and win matches....i can think of about one half dozen people i know and have met that make a better mousetrap and advance the art through innovation......not a marketing survey....
 
#30
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Asking a group of people who have had continued success doing something the same way for an extended period is not the best way to ignite innovation.

The fact "this crowd is short on institutional memory" is exactly why it should be engaged.

Who gives a flying fcuk if innovation is traditional or comes from outside influences?


 
#31
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Regarding a package rifle vs a custom ordering system, recent advances in 'just in time inventory' types of production philosophies work Ok for a throwaway market, but where systems are designed to be maintainable, I think they may not be such a wonderful idea, because they can make customer support into a nightmare. The automobile industry deals with this by encoding features into the VIN, but honestly, I would sincerely hope the firearms industry does not reach this degree of complexity.

My idea of variety is a package rifle complete in all respects, and a base rifle, sans mounts and optics, in a box without ancillary objects, and leave the entire product selection question at that. Two choices, no more.

While I am a personal fan of switch barrel rifles, that does not extend to chambering options that allow different case head diameters. I think that the recent trend to more voluminous chamberings has a place, but I believe that an action long enough to accomodate a .30-'06, and a bolt face with a .473" diameter should be adequate for most practical applications, and that larger chamberings require a completely different platform in order to be truly practical.

I realize that this is a tough crowd to play to, but my own LR philosophy dictates a considerably longish barrel, and that consideration of practical overall length would dictate some sort of truncation, ala bullpup, to make this workable in a field rifle.

Dropping the boreline, extending the cheekrest forward, and remounting the optics forward, could soften the blow to conventionality.

It might even make some sense to reconfigure the bedding concept to involve an integrated barrel block and scope mounting, with the action floating, or at least only being secured with a flexible contact. Perhaps something which combines everything to a recoil lug that incorporates the bedding foundation and scope mount.

Greg
 
#32
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

..and something that can be worked on at the lowest echelon of maintenance. The "has to be worked on by a Match Armorer" mentality has been proven slow and grossly inefficient.
 
#33
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

Thought I would revive this: are the currently systems (non bullpup) that allow for quick barrel changes in the field?

Rath
 
#34
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

In my view, cans could be redesigned to nearly eliminate additional length, at the cost of some O/O the box thinking.

The muzzle might be configured as something somewhat like a Garand Gas Trap (initial Garand version, only somewhat elongated, to provide some time delay), being ducted into a can which is underslung rearward beneath the barrel, routing the gasses rearward through the can, and then forward again to re-exit through the same trap once the projectile is clear. Taking this a stop further, this can could also serve as somewhat of a barrel support/stiffener, something like a barrel sleeve, but underslung, and could also serve as a bipod/accessory mounting foundation. And the underslung configuration would not intrude into the optical axis. With proper heat insulation, or shielding, it could become a substitute for/with the same ergonomic purpose, as a stock forend.

But my ideas seldom catch hold...

Greg
 
#35
Re: What is needed in the tactical market.

I like the .260 and the 6.5mm, and for non-LR applications, would suggest a switch barrel chambered in something like a 6.5-250 Savage. Same bolt face, and with interchangeable detachable magazines, no feeding issues should arise. Bullet weights from the 85gr SRA HP Varminter on up to 142 SMK's would accommodate applications from varmints, to AR's, to subsonics. a 1:8" twist would be suitable for any of these bullets, and a barrel length beyond 24" would probably not be advantageous.

Greg
 
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