Range Report What is realistic group size with factory 6.5 ammo?

[momoshooter]

I’m relatively new to precision shooting. Bought a rifle with a trued Remington 700 action, Timney trigger at 2lbs, Mullerworks 22” barrel 1-8 and shooting off a concrete slab with front and rear rests at 100 yards. I’ve tried many different kinds of factory ammo and can’t really get below 0.75 MOA consistently. Every now and then I’ll shoot a 0.3 group but these are by far the exception.

I chronographed the ammo and SDs are 15-25 for the all the factory stuff.

Have I just maxed out my factory ammo? Is it me or my rifle? What kind of groups are some of you able to *consistently* get out of factory ammo with your precision rigs?

 

[rangerlong]

Using my 6.5cm RPR and Hornady Black/American Gunner 140 gr bthp ammo, I get 3/4 moa to 1 moa consistently. Best group was .67x" and worst was 1.2 moa. SD consistent at 20 fps. That's what most of my shooting has been with since it's cheap and shot so well.
Their match 147gr ammo did not shoot as well, and neither has anything else. All in the 1 moa range.

I've never shot a group better than .6xx" though. That may just be the limit of my ability.

 

[mwd92870]

Hornady 147 eldm

 

[seansmd]

Where's the other 2? Lol

 

[Olen_4504]

when i was shooting the factory berger stuff (140g hybrids). i was getting consistent 1/4-1/3" groups.

SDs were in the low teens.

i have a photo of a .15" 3 shot group. but it's only 3 shots - so i won't share it

 

[blbennett1288]

SD’s and ES’s aren’t going to mean too much at 100 yards. There is a reason we use 100 yard zero, because it eliminates so many of the variables. I have used shit ammo that has SD’s in the 30’s and ES’s in the 80’s and still get sub 1/2” groups.

If you are consistently around 0.75” then it is a product of you and the rifle.

Personally, I would try all factory ammo options within reason; Berger, Hornady, and Federal. Once you have exhausted those options try a known quality reload ammo like McCourt or Copper Creek. If your groups still are not what you desire it is you are the rifle.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I’m relatively new to precision shooting. Bought a rifle with a trued Remington 700 action, Timney trigger at 2lbs, Mullerworks 22” barrel 1-8 and shooting off a concrete slab with front and rear rests at 100 yards. I’ve tried many different kinds of factory ammo and can’t really get below 0.75 MOA consistently. Every now and then I’ll shoot a 0.3 group but these are by far the exception.

I chronographed the ammo and SDs are 15-25 for the all the factory stuff.

Have I just maxed out my factory ammo? Is it me or my rifle? What kind of groups are some of you able to *consistently* get out of factory ammo with your precision rigs?

You didn't say if the rifle was bought new or used; if used, did you get an accurate round count through the barrel? What barrel profile? Chassis or traditional stock? If the latter, is it bedded? Have you asked a more experienced shooter to try your rifle?

I have about two years experience with 6.5CM, first in a Tikka T3X TAC A1 and then a custom build on a Stiller TAC-30 action in an MPA chassis. Both were/are consistent 0.5-0.6MOA rifles at 100 yards with every factory round I've tried (Hornady 140/147 ELD-M, Hornady American Gunner 140 HPBT, Federal 140 something, Defender 142 SMK).

If you're new to precision rifle, there is a very good chance that your trigger pull and follow-through are responsible for inconsistency. I've been shooting almost six decades and I still have days where I think I could encase my rifle in a ton of concrete and still jerk at least one round in five off whatever point of aim it set up on.

Here's one simple mechanism for checking trigger pull and follow through: Have a range buddy load your mag or rifle out of your sight and include at least one dummy round. If you're pulling the rifle off point of aim as the shot breaks, you'll see the crosshair jerk when you trigger on the dummy round. The crosshair shouldn't move at all with the dummy round, and it should come back from recoil on or very very close to POA with a live round. You need to learn to see exactly what that crosshair is doing at the precise instant the shot breaks.

Finally - are you avoiding an overheated barrel, especially if you have a lighter profile? I was recently approached on the range by a new shooter with similar questions to yours. Turned out he had a Ruger RPR in 6.5CM and he was basically dumping one mag after another, shots maybe 5-10 seconds apart for a full magazine, reload & repeat. That barrel was smokin' hot. He was just banging away at the relatively huge steel plates; he wasn't learning anything from his shots beyond whether he hit the plate or not. Try to learn something with each round fired. The online training offered here on the Hide is a bargain for new shooters.

Good luck.

 

[rangerlong]

I came to shoot, not to sit and wait while barrels cool.
What is your approach to finding the balance between the two?
I typically shoot one 5 shot group, then switch rifles, and have a rotation of 3-4 rifles. The only time I wait between those 5 shots is the time it takes for my labradar to save the last shot.
Between groups there is the time where I start a new string on the labradar, and write down what load goes with what string and target, but my barrels are still warm when I get through my rotation.

When shooting for tight groups, how long do you wait between shots?
How long do you wait between groups?

I would normally think anything being sold by a forum is a gimmick money grab. But I see an awful lot of users here that have access to the training, and have been thinking about signing up.

 

[momoshooter]

You didn't say if the rifle was bought new or used; if used, did you get an accurate round count through the barrel? What barrel profile? Chassis or traditional stock? If the latter, is it bedded? Have you asked a more experienced shooter to try your rifle?

I have about two years experience with 6.5CM, first in a Tikka T3X TAC A1 and then a custom build on a Stiller TAC-30 action in an MPA chassis. Both were/are consistent 0.5-0.6MOA rifles at 100 yards with every factory round I've tried (Hornady 140/147 ELD-M, Hornady American Gunner 140 HPBT, Federal 140 something, Defender 142 SMK).

If you're new to precision rifle, there is a very good chance that your trigger pull and follow-through are responsible for inconsistency. I've been shooting almost six decades and I still have days where I think I could encase my rifle in a ton of concrete and still jerk at least one round in five off whatever point of aim it set up on.

Here's one simple mechanism for checking trigger pull and follow through: Have a range buddy load your mag or rifle out of your sight and include at least one dummy round. If you're pulling the rifle off point of aim as the shot breaks, you'll see the crosshair jerk when you trigger on the dummy round. The crosshair shouldn't move at all with the dummy round, and it should come back from recoil on or very very close to POA with a live round. You need to learn to see exactly what that crosshair is doing at the precise instant the shot breaks.

Finally - are you avoiding an overheated barrel, especially if you have a lighter profile? I was recently approached on the range by a new shooter with similar questions to yours. Turned out he had a Ruger RPR in 6.5CM and he was basically dumping one mag after another, shots maybe 5-10 seconds apart for a full magazine, reload & repeat. That barrel was smokin' hot. He was just banging away at the relatively huge steel plates; he wasn't learning anything from his shots beyond whether he hit the plate or not. Try to learn something with each round fired. The online training offered here on the Hide is a bargain for new shooters.

Good luck.

Thanks for all of the replies. Really great advice, especially about the dummy round.

I'm impressed that some people are actually able to get .4 or .3 moa consistently with anything let alone factory ammo.

I definitely have a long way to go as a shooter. I hand loaded and took the rifle out and overall had much better results, all 5 shot groups worse was 0.75 with several around 0.5. Best 3 shots were 0.12 so I do think the rifle is capable.

It is new by the way and wears a KRG Bravo, has less than 200 rounds down the barrel.

I will continue load testing and working on my shooting and report back.

 

[momoshooter]

I came to shoot, not to sit and wait while barrels cool.
What is your approach to finding the balance between the two?
I typically shoot one 5 shot group, then switch rifles, and have a rotation of 3-4 rifles. The only time I wait between those 5 shots is the time it takes for my labradar to save the last shot.
Between groups there is the time where I start a new string on the labradar, and write down what load goes with what string and target, but my barrels are still warm when I get through my rotation.

When shooting for tight groups, how long do you wait between shots?
How long do you wait between groups?

I would normally think anything being sold by a forum is a gimmick money grab. But I see an awful lot of users here that have access to the training, and have been thinking about signing up.

I do wait long enough for the barrel to cool in between strings. I do wish I had more rifles to rotate

 

[earthtrekker1775]

How often do you start your range day with intentional and methodical dry fire practice?

 

[Kickin45]

Hornady 140 ELD out of my DT srsa1
.25 5 shot groups if I do my part.
That Hornady is some amazingly accurate factory ammo.

 

[Anthonywv]

Depends on the factory ammo. If it is a great match load, I wouldn't be surprised getting 1/4 MOA @ 100 YDS. I'd also be surprised getting anything larger than 1 MOA @ 100 YRDS.

 

[RidiculousMetacarpus]

These are from January. All off the shelf 140 eldm.
Bartlein 24" 1:8.5, chambered by MHSA.
It seems to love being run very hot. I don't "do cool downs" unless it instantly burns my hand. That kind of hot.
Have a few others from last week, just didnt bother to upload in the TargetPCS. Can on request. Theyre not as tight, but still <0.5, 5rd groups. I don't shoot a whole lot, so far its only been 4 times this year. its always <0.5 if i do my part, and usually <0.3 if i really do my part. AgaIn, it likes to be run hot - funny enogh i was rapid firing last week and the groups got tighter on 3/5 mag changes lol. It's great.

 

[rangerlong]

@earthtrekker1775 I never have, but that seems like a damn good idea and I’m going to try it.

 

[garandman]

A "realistic group" is a minumum five shot group repeated a minumum of 5 times ( for a total 25 minimum rounds fired)

Take an average of those group sizes. That's "realistic."

Its amazing how often the 4 - 5th shots open a single group up. And how hard it is to repeat a single, sub half MoA 5-shot group.

 

[seansmd]

A "realistic group" is a minumum five shot group repeated a minumum of 5 times ( for a total 25 minimum rounds fired)

Take an average of those group sizes. That's "realistic."

Its amazing how often the 4 - 5th shots open a single group up. And how hard it is to repeat a single, sub half MoA 5-shot group.

I agree with this to say what kind of shooter me and this gun are capable of. Bragging rights, a single 5 shot group should suffice.

 

[garandman]

I agree with this to say what kind of shooter me and this gun are capable of. Bragging rights, a single 5 shot group should suffice.

I've noticed a great difference in the ability to shoot a single 5 shot group versus the ability to repeat that group.



I only brag about what I'm capable of doing pretty much every single time.

 

[momoshooter]

These are from January. All off the shelf 140 eldm.
Bartlein 24" 1:8.5, chambered by MHSA.
It seems to love being run very hot. I don't "do cool downs" unless it instantly burns my hand. That kind of hot.
Have a few others from last week, just didnt bother to upload in the TargetPCS. Can on request. Theyre not as tight, but still <0.5, 5rd groups. I don't shoot a whole lot, so far its only been 4 times this year. its always <0.5 if i do my part, and usually <0.3 if i really do my part. AgaIn, it likes to be run hot - funny enogh i was rapid firing last week and the groups got tighter on 3/5 mag changes lol. It's great.

impressive groups!

 

[Timetoshoot]

Rifle; tikka with bartlein barrel

140, 147, and American eagle .3 to .5 most days for 5 shots. I’ve had bad days at 1inch (all me)
SD for all 3 loads hovers just above 10. Poor management or inconsistent management of recoil will make for larger SD’s.

Often time cold shooter 1st round is .3 lower than the rest of group.

 

[Triple D]

I mostly run handloads, but my LR-308 in 6.5creedmoor likes the Hornady 140 and 147 eld-m offerings. It does equally as well with the FGMM 130’s, but those run on the hot side for a gas gun. I’d expect sub 3/4moa from the match offerings, with sub .5moa being achievable with something a rifle really liked at 100yds. ES/SD will have an impact as distance increases.

 

[jaywhite97]

Really some solid advice from everyone that posted. I appreciate the advice. This is 140s Hornandy Black BTHP coming out of a Remington 700. I couldn’t tel where I was hitting at first reason why first shot is high my dope chart wasn’t right. Once I got my adjustment right I was back on target. (bTW 400 yards)

 

[seansmd]

Ok, 5 shot groups, center was cold gun, cold shooter, then to top left, then top right all using my game changer as the rear bag. Bottom left was using my dedicated rear bag, saw more movement in the crosshair and the vertical string. I'm sending this rear bag back to get some more fill once I get a chance to try it with my new build.

I am becoming convinced I

can use the game changer as the one bag in multiple orientations based on height needed.

 

[Ledzep]

In my Brux barreled Mausingfield factory 147's were in the .6-.8 range for 10 shots.