What is the Most Historically Significant Sniper Rifle?

[onethousandmeters]

The Finn M39 was free floated. The sniper version was made in 43 and used a Soviet type top mount(VKT made what was a close copy of the mount) and a PE or PEM Soviet scope. It is amazing that replicas of these have not been used more in CMP matches.

On the PUs going up against the 03A1s with Unertls, a board member here, and his partner won their CMP vintage sniper match with PUs and there was at least one Unertl rifle in the shoot. Many of us are getting sub-MOA groups pretty often with match ammo and handloads. As with most good WW2 snipers it is more reasonable to expect 1.5 MOA and be happy if you get better and work on it if you get worse.

A big debate on "what is the best sniper rifle of WW2" on another forum, there were some strong arguments for the Enfields. The scopes had clicks, windage adjustment and were good return to zero when adjusted. The rifles were built with care by H&H. I need a better example myself. This is another rifle that should be seen more at CMP VSMs.

Perhaps one reason why the Enfield Mark 1 T's aren't seen that often is they are freaking outrageous in price! When I bought mine several years ago, I paid a little over $2k for it. When I sold it a few months later, it was only because someone offered me around $500 MORE than I paid. Now, you'd be hard-pressed to find one even for sale, and at that, it would be well over $6k. Just MHO.

 

[Mike Radford]

Perhaps one reason why the Enfield Mark 1 T's aren't seen that often is they are freaking outrageous in price! When I bought mine several years ago, I paid a little over $2k for it. When I sold it a few months later, it was only because someone offered me around $500 MORE than I paid. Now, you'd be hard-pressed to find one even for sale, and at that, it would be well over $6k. Just MHO.

You may have sold it too cheap. They are expensive and about $4000-6000 depending on completeness and condition. Sad you had to sale it.

All these WW2 snipers have gotten really expensive except the PU. That is why so many replicas are used.

 

[onethousandmeters]

Mike, no kidding. At the time (about 6 years ago), I thought the $500 increase was pretty good. Now, I'm just amazed at the pricing. I had a James River Armory replica of the 1903a4, and it was silly accurate, with me using PPU 150 FMJ ammo. It kicked like a mule, but was a true joy to shoot. Given that, I would love to have an Enfield Number 4, Mark 1 T replica IF it was done to the same standards as the JRA 1903a4 was done. Sadly, my gunsmithing skills wouldn't come close to me being able to produce something like that.

 

[Roguerunner]

You may have sold it too cheap. They are expensive and about $4000-6000 depending on completeness and condition. Sad you had to sale it.

All these WW2 snipers have gotten really expensive except the PU. That is why so many replicas are used.

Are we talking the full up Sniper T with matching scope, rings all in the dedicated issued wooden case and scope case in VG to mint? In those cases, I've seen them at 10K or higher.

 

[samnev]

In my mind the Mauser 1891 which set the stage for all those Mauser types bolt actions that followed.

 

[MJ1]

Just a small comment on motivation and Simo Haya. He had a serious hard on for the Russians because they occupied his home and turned it into a command post for some really nasty people and did assorted things to his family, friends and critters. He was not alone among Finns with this motivation. Hate is a huge motivator. It always amazed me just how much dogsXXX and broken glass someone would crawl through to get at us till I figured this out.



Home of Simo Häyhä, a famous sniper of the Finno-Soviet "Winter War" (1939-1940). Soviets had built bunkers and underground tunnel on the property. Rautjärvi, August 6, 1941.

SA-kuva 32849

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The Finn M39 was free floated. The sniper version was made in 43 and used a Soviet type top mount(VKT made what was a close copy of the mount) and a PE or PEM Soviet scope. It is amazing that replicas of these have not been used more in CMP matches.

On the PUs going up against the 03A1s with Unertls, a board member here, and his partner won their CMP vintage sniper match with PUs and there was at least one Unertl rifle in the shoot. Many of us are getting sub-MOA groups pretty often with match ammo and handloads. As with most good WW2 snipers it is more reasonable to expect 1.5 MOA and be happy if you get better and work on it if you get worse.

A big debate on "what is the best sniper rifle of WW2" on another forum, there were some strong arguments for the Enfields. The scopes had clicks, windage adjustment and were good return to zero when adjusted. The rifles were built with care by H&H. I need a better example myself. This is another rifle that should be seen more at CMP VSMs.

Elsewhere on this forum, I am documenting a rather laborious process involving the cobbling up of an inexpensive 7.62x54R shooter. I have already expended probably as much on scout-style optical mounts as the rifle's original cost ($114 for a 1943 wartime Izshevsk)). I have found that simpler is better, using a set of supremely rugged UTG medium height airgun rings mounted on the original sight dovetail that is incorporated directly into the barrel, well under $20 shipped, with an Aim Sport 2-7x42 30mm scout scope. The optic retails at under $60 shipped and probably approximates the quality found in wartime soviet optics.

This project required no modification to the rifle beyond removing the rear sight assembly, and is completely reversible. It is decidedly rugged and the lowest I have seen anywhere, with the scope lens covers clearing the barrel and receiver by about 1/16". I have added a Limbsaver slip-on recoil pad and an Allen Stock Pack with about 25mm of neoprene foam padding under it, along with side offset sling studs and a reproduction Garand type sling. My own personal rifle also uses an inexpensive rubber butt extension to add another 2" of LOP to accommodate my 6 1/2ft frame.

This project intends to provide an inexpensive shooter based on an unmodified antique surplus rifle, with no particular attention to recreating anything of an authentic historical nature. So much for preamble.

The rifle is finally sighted in at 200yd, and in test firing on a day with stiff and variable crosswinds, it managed a respectable 2"H x 6"W group of twenty at 200yd, using 188/'71 147gr steelcase surplus ammo right out of the spamcan, shooting off a rudimentary wooden 'V' rest on a wooden range bench. The only mod to the rifle besides the optics/mounts is the emulation of the traditional barrel 'corking' technique; with modern 2mm thick neoprene craft foam sheeting substituted for the traditional cork/leather barrel wrapping under the stock at the two stock band locations.

I think that this simple improvement process, using inexpensive modern components on an unbutchered off-the-rack battle rifle, demonstrates the kind of effectiveness the wartime 91/30 sniper rifles could be expected to provide.

In terms of cost, the expenses for the final version could be somewhere in the $200-$250 range, rifle included, involving the basic modification of optics and mounts only. The overall expense of this project has been moderated by extending the final result over a group of four such rifles for training and fun comp with the family. I am no gunsmith, and these alterations could probably be accomplished by any of our forum members with no woodwork or metalwork required.

Greg

 

[MJ1]

I'll go with this one.

 

[mrbungle]

the enfield no 4 T


not because it is the "Most Historically Significant" sniper rifle. i just love them, the looks , the feel , the action and accuracy. if i was a sniper in WWII , that would be the rifle i would want.

 

[twincamharley]

I agree " T "

Matching 1945 BSA with transit case/ scope tin and a matching Long Branch with transit case/scope tin, both are 9.5 out of 10

 

[Joop]

Beautiful T, TCH. I would love to hear more details on the Denison smock, too!

 

[twincamharley]

Beautiful T, TCH. I would love to hear more details on the Denison smock, too!

Sure.... 1942 Officers version ( full Zipper ) made by Lewis Bros, Size 8 ( very large size ) Purchased in the 1970's from a private collection/museum in Arnhem
It is a 10/10 in perfect condition

 

[Roguerunner]

That is probably some the best (from the surface anyway) looking Sniper T and accessories I have seen. You mind I ask how long you gents have had this and what you paid? I have seen them in the 8-10K in such good condition with matching everything.

MJ1, can you tell us a bit about that spotter? Very interesting.

 

[twincamharley]

I don't think one should forget the Ross' contribution in WW1

Top is Cdn with Warner Swasey scope, Bottom is US with Winchester A5

 

[cal50]

i vote mosin nagants snipers as they probably together killed the most people

The Mosin action and the various adoptions of it ( PU, PE, Finnish versions) and the field success of numbers KIA or wounded have to rank high.
I have a Repo PE scope on a like new Mosin and with Czech Silvertip ammo it's a tad over MOA today.
It's not state of the art or high tech but it still works well.

 

[cal50]

Just a small comment on motivation and Simo Haya. He had a serious hard on for the Russians because they occupied his home and turned it into a command post for some really nasty people and did assorted things to his family, friends and critters. He was not alone among Finns with this motivation. Hate is a huge motivator. It always amazed me just how much dogsXXX and broken glass someone would crawl through to get at us till I figured this out.



Home of Simo Häyhä, a famous sniper of the Finno-Soviet "Winter War" (1939-1940). Soviets had built bunkers and underground tunnel on the property. Rautjärvi, August 6, 1941.

SA-kuva 32849

Simo got his pound of flesh from the Russians.

 

[longebow]

The USSR's SVD Dragunov is the most historically significant sniper rifle for the following reasons:

Designed from the ground up as a sniper rifle by Evgeniy F. Dragunov. It was not an adaptation of a current service/issue rifle, nor an adaptation of a commercial design. Adopted in 1963.

Design parameters took user feedback to create a tool with balance (weight, accuracy, usability, reliability, features).

The receiver has multiple lightening cuts to reduce weight. The rifle/scope/full magazine is very close to 10# (4.5 kg).

Uses the standard issue service round, 7.62x54mm rimmed cartridge, allowing use of service ammunition: standard ball, tracer, armor piercing, and armor piercing/incendiary.

Had a specialty designed cartridge, 7N1, that was made to higher quality specifications.

Semi-automatic to allow repeat shots for correction or multiple targets.

Selectable gas system for normal and "fouled" conditions.

Removable 10 round magazine. Holds the bolt back when empty.

Longer barrel to maximize velocity, with effective flash suppressor for limited visibility engagements.

Removable cheekpiece to allow a better cheek-weld when using optics.

The rifle had backup iron sights that could be used with the scope attached (but required the removal of the cheekpiece).

Issued PSO-1 optical sight with the following features:
Fixed 4x for reasonable magnification in all conditions with a wide field of view.
Hash marks for hold offs.
Range estimation "choke hold" system for 1.7 meter target (5'7" man).
Ballistic drop compensator elevation knob from 100 to 1000 meters, with additional chevron aiming points for 1100, 1200, and 1300 meters.
Reticle pattern is illuminated with battery-operated toggle on/off switch.
Issued with a cold weather adapter so that the battery could remain warmer (next to the soldier's body).
Passive infrared detector that was "activated" by ultraviolet light, to identify and engage active IR sources.
Standardized mounting system, allowing the use of other optical sights, to include the passive systems 1PN58 and 1PN51.

 

[juha_teuvonnen]

Something is of historical significance when it has an important role in our understanding of the past. It will inevitably vary, depending on the point of view. Kennedy assassination is a highly important event in American history, which makes Carcano historically significant for us. For Russians or Finns the Kennedy assassination, while not a complete non-event, is definitely less important making Carcano "a rifle, that was once used to assassinate a president".

WWII changed Europe and US forever, in my book it was an event of different magnitude than Kennedy assassination. Therefore, the rifle that significantly affected that conflict, significantly affected human history altogether. While Mauser and US 1903 are both great rifles, we are not arguing "what is the best rifle", or "which rifle would I grab if I had to fight for my life". We are looking as a matter-of-fact, which sniper rifle is most important to understanding the conflict. As such, I think Mosin-Nagant would be a logical winner. It does not make Mosin-Nagant the most effective sniper rifle of that conflict. Arguably, better sniper rifles existed and were fielded at the time. But none of them affected WWII and human history the way Mosin-Nagant did. The credit may go to the Soviet sniper training program and doctrine, rather than the rifle itself, but it does not matter.

I am not trying to knock on Mosin-Nagant, which has many redeeming qualities, especially the Finnish versions. We don't have true SVMs (Mosin Sniper Rifle) available in the US. Russian 91/30s with PU and PE replica scopes available in US for short money today are replicas. They are built from regular period-correct MN rifles. As far as I know they are neither hand-selected for their accuracy, nor reworked by an armorer. These knock-offs simply don't do MN sniper justice. That being said, my M39 finnish Mosin-Nagant has by far the best trigger, smoothest action and groups better than any other MN that I ever owned or shot. If I had to pick a WWII era bolt-action rifle to fight for my life, Finn M39 would be my first choice.

 

[wilecoyote]

Comparing the M39 to the Russian M-N could be the same as comparing a Parker-Hale to a Gewehr 1898 : for sure they have "something" in common, but in between it's an entire world of well spended TLC_
In my opinion the Finn M39 isn't a "Finnish version": it's a FINN RIFLE : be proud of it _

 

[juha_teuvonnen]

Comparing the M39 to the Russian M-N could be the same as comparing a Parker-Hale to a Gewehr 1898 : for sure they have "something" in common, but in between it's an entire world of well spended TLC_
In my opinion the Finn M39 isn't a "Finnish version": it's a FINN RIFLE : be proud of it _

To be fair, M39s were built from russian M91s. Don't get me wrong, I love my TRG which is a true an honest "Finn" and I am very proud of the nice groups it produces. But to give credit when credit is due, M39s were built from russian rifles, albeit to a much higher quality standard than originals.

 

[wilecoyote]

To be fair, M39s were built from russian M91s. Don't get me wrong, I love my TRG which is a true an honest "Finn" and I am very proud of the nice groups it produces. But to give credit when credit is due, M39s were built from russian rifles, albeit to a much higher quality standard than originals.

I agree, but the average results of the complete Finnish reworking of Russian actions (and all around them) is quite superior than the average donor rifles,
in the same way that a Parker-Hale M85, with some understatement, can be considered a substantial improvement when compared to average '98s_(and I truly can't think about M85 as a "German" rifle, notwithstanding his action)_

 

[JoeMartin]

The patriot in me wants to agree with the nomination of the KY/PN rifle, but as I consider it, I find myself thinking that, though it was employed by skilled rifleman, it is more akin to a hunting arm that was pressed into military service. Maybe if it had some special sights to help target an enemy soldier at long range, but the examples I've seen all have had standard sights. I just don't know. What do you guys think? Yay, or nay on the classic Pennsylvania Long Rifle?

HRF

I would give the Pennsylvania Long Rifle my vote, as it was used to target British Officers, then NCO's. So in this light it was the most important "sniping" rifle of our history, even if those Riflemen using their Pennsylvania Rifle did not consider themselves "snipers" as we view a Sniper today.

As for modern warfare, I give the nod to the Mosin Nagant, simply because of the number of kills made with it against the Germans in WWII on the Russian Front. No other rifle even comes close to that rifle's record for kills by the "Sniping" corp of the Russians (men & women) in WWII.

 

[Heronion]

1700s in US, Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifles. 1800s in Eurasia, Baker rifle. 1900s in US, Springfield 1903. 1900s in Eurasia, M91/30.

 

[hrfunk]

1700s in US, Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifles. 1800s in Eurasia, Baker rifle. 1900s in US, Springfield 1903. 1900s in Eurasia, M91/30.

You forgot the "why" part. What makes these specific rifles superior for Sniper applications than any of their contemporaries?

HRF

 

[ssatt68]

Just about all the rifles mentioned are excellent choices, but an earlier post alluded to tactics and the sniper. Most of the rifles mentioned are accurized versions of per existing service or hunting rifles that using conventional in service cartridges. The sniper used the strengths of his system to his advantages and attempted to mitigate the weaknesses, a sniper’s rifle not necessarily a sniper rifle. While I love history and lineage the most significant advancements have happened in the last few decades.
I grew up hunting out west in 7mm/30 call magnum land, went through SOTIC in the early 90s and asked what I thought was a simple question, “why are we shooting 308 win at humans in a bolt gun?”, “why not 300WM or something more suitable to killing stuff faraway”. Any way the conversation was one sided from then on.
The sniper has not enjoyed trust, understanding or commanders that knew how to employ them correctly until the late 20th century.
I would submit the AI in 338LM, which was a spinoff of the Haskins 338/416.
Now don’t kill the messenger, but the AI may be the first purpose built sniper rifle with an effective range of 1500m (modern bullets stretch it out a bit further) designed to kill armed men, therefor the most significant. The rifle extends the ability to target discriminate past the effective range of all light infantry weapons currently in service (non crew served).

 

[fasnz]

The 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano that Lee Harvey Oswald used to shoot JFK. If we're talking about individual rifles, anyway.

Have you ever shot a Carcano ?....good luck hitting a bus let alone a moving head !. Lol

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Sorry, can't help it. I nominate the following "sniper-rifle."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNppLFxeXY&sns=em

It may just be that we shall need these in future.

Entertaining at least.


Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed