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What makes a good "defensive" levergun?
- Thread starter Daddyusmaximus
- Start date
Try posting it in the proper technical forum and not the pit. All yer pain will go away...
Ballistically, it works. Operationally, it’s a hard fail for all but the most diligent of training shooters.
I love lever guns, been shooting them since I was a kid and still have a problem with another lost puppy named Henry following me home every now and then. I’m no sour puss towards them in the least.
The lever guns biggest shortcoming is the lever itself. It’s easy to short stroke and requires fully extending the trigger finger and regaining contact each shot during the lever throw. Some rifles get tricked out for shorter throws, but most off the shelf require a pretty long range of motion each cycle that throws the hand at an awkward angle. Finally, they require fine motor skills to reload, something combat vets know are seriously deteriorated in a gunfight.
They travel well, absolutely. They’re 50 state legal. They easily handle drugged up man stopping rounds, that’s for sure. They have a solid butt stock for secondary use. But so does a pump 12ga. So does a shorty DBM .300 BLK bolt gun. They’re 50 state legal, have better ergonomics, can trim down pretty sleek, and have a much more forgiving mode of operation than a lever gun when firing, actioning and reloading, and require far less training and familiarity to run them hard and fast. Either would be a better fit to the 50 state legal defensive long gun option.
I may commonly carry a lever gun in the mountains or on the prairie while hunting game or popping critters, but the 10mm Glock or Colt Python on my hip are my primary defensive weapons there. At home, the levers are unloaded and a shotgun and AR are primaries.
I love lever guns, been shooting them since I was a kid and still have a problem with another lost puppy named Henry following me home every now and then. I’m no sour puss towards them in the least.
The lever guns biggest shortcoming is the lever itself. It’s easy to short stroke and requires fully extending the trigger finger and regaining contact each shot during the lever throw. Some rifles get tricked out for shorter throws, but most off the shelf require a pretty long range of motion each cycle that throws the hand at an awkward angle. Finally, they require fine motor skills to reload, something combat vets know are seriously deteriorated in a gunfight.
They travel well, absolutely. They’re 50 state legal. They easily handle drugged up man stopping rounds, that’s for sure. They have a solid butt stock for secondary use. But so does a pump 12ga. So does a shorty DBM .300 BLK bolt gun. They’re 50 state legal, have better ergonomics, can trim down pretty sleek, and have a much more forgiving mode of operation than a lever gun when firing, actioning and reloading, and require far less training and familiarity to run them hard and fast. Either would be a better fit to the 50 state legal defensive long gun option.
I may commonly carry a lever gun in the mountains or on the prairie while hunting game or popping critters, but the 10mm Glock or Colt Python on my hip are my primary defensive weapons there. At home, the levers are unloaded and a shotgun and AR are primaries.
I go with bore size…
Technically this “is” a lever.
Sirhr
Technically this “is” a lever.
Sirhr
What makes a good "defensive" levergun?
Winchester model 1901, Lever action 10 Ga.
When you want to be up close, and personal............
Model 1901 Shotguns | Winchester Collector
winchestercollector.org
Marinevet1 beat me by seconds…
But this is the best lever action for defense.
As for people wondering why the squabbling and funny posts! Well those folks need to understand why it’s called The Bear Pit.
Because the entire concept is that it is a place to beat the crap out of each other and then go have a beer together later and laugh about it.
It’s what guys do.
At least the ones who don’t need a Midol.
Sirhr
But this is the best lever action for defense.
As for people wondering why the squabbling and funny posts! Well those folks need to understand why it’s called The Bear Pit.
Because the entire concept is that it is a place to beat the crap out of each other and then go have a beer together later and laugh about it.
It’s what guys do.
At least the ones who don’t need a Midol.
Sirhr
Even Hollywood went there 10+ years ago, although it wasn't for defensive use.
Even Hollywood went there 10+ years ago, although it wasn't for defensive use.
Hollywood did it 30 years ago and it was for defense! ;-)
Sirhr
You could have just stayed civil and could have given a comment to my speculations without slinging insults. Like:
"You can trim the 30/40 Krag brass the length of your revolver cylinder one time without sizing because of its factory taper. After one firing the brass will fireform to the form of the cylinder, which now leaves a shoulder. This may, or may not be reloadable as is, it depends on the pistol cylinder and if you can chamber the fired brass again with out neck sizing. Again, I am out of town and don't remember for sure, but I think I used a .41 mag sizer to neck size the brass. You have to use a larger depriming die to deprime, such as a 45/70 to get the primer out. When neck resizing, make sure you do not move the new shoulder back. If you do, the next time you fire the brass, the shoulder will move forward, pushing the brass reward and lock up your cylinder. To cut the styrofoam, I took a .44 brass, sharpend the mouth and used it like a cookie cutter to cut the wads." (citation from here)
Nothing beats a lever gun or two when it comes to facing down 150 pure bred sons of bitches on horses…
Sirhr
I keep an 1873 loaded in case the Seminoles rise up again. Osceola County is less than a days ride from my house. Of course, I don't expect most of them to survive crossing Highway 27.
For the vast majority of self-defense situations in the home - like 99.9% - the requirement is simply "have a gun". Doesn't really matter what type. You're not facing a half-dozen pipehitters, which is good because at that point you're screwed regardless of Gucci equipment. A Marlin .22, a Walther .380, a random 12G pump purchased from Sears in the 1950s and not fired since, doesn't matter - just have a gun. Go scrape a few decades of stories from the monthly NRA rag for proof. The little old ladies living in Phili aren't debating this stuff, they're just using what they have and doing so far more often than the people debating such matters.
If you're next-level serious about this stuff, then consider basic things that will help in likely scenarios. A light and self-illuminating sights fall in this category. Spare ammo is always good but unlikely to be deployed.
That's it. Anything more extreme gets into mental masturbation territory, and from a statistics & probability standpoint, one better have their shit together in so many other areas of daily life before this jumps out as being even a minor concern.
I get that we like discussing such things for the sake of discussion, but that requires checking one's sense of seriousness at the door. The gun crowd seems largely incapable of this.
Since this is the Pit, I'll finish with an appropriate comment - if anyone is in a self-defense situation, they presumably would rather cough up a $500 PSA AR or Glock to the local PD's evidence locker than a difficult and expensive to replace lever gun. I don't think Grandma's Win 1894 deer gun is going to fare well behind bars for a few years. Gotta really think through all this angles to be a badass on a shooting forum.
If you're next-level serious about this stuff, then consider basic things that will help in likely scenarios. A light and self-illuminating sights fall in this category. Spare ammo is always good but unlikely to be deployed.
That's it. Anything more extreme gets into mental masturbation territory, and from a statistics & probability standpoint, one better have their shit together in so many other areas of daily life before this jumps out as being even a minor concern.
I get that we like discussing such things for the sake of discussion, but that requires checking one's sense of seriousness at the door. The gun crowd seems largely incapable of this.
Since this is the Pit, I'll finish with an appropriate comment - if anyone is in a self-defense situation, they presumably would rather cough up a $500 PSA AR or Glock to the local PD's evidence locker than a difficult and expensive to replace lever gun. I don't think Grandma's Win 1894 deer gun is going to fare well behind bars for a few years. Gotta really think through all this angles to be a badass on a shooting forum.
Regarding caliber choice, I was bored one day and got to comparing ballistic differences in various pistol cartridges shot in carbine length barrels and noticed that the 357 125gr jhp gets the biggest velocity increase. Like 1000fps increase.
I agree in a defensive situation you use the gun you have but if I had a choice of caliber in a lever it would be 357 or 45 Colt. Both less recoil, blast, sound, over penetration than 44mag.
I agree in a defensive situation you use the gun you have but if I had a choice of caliber in a lever it would be 357 or 45 Colt. Both less recoil, blast, sound, over penetration than 44mag.
Sometimes the memes just write themselves…
Those evil black guns… hey, libtard term, not mine!
Sirhr
Not exactly ... they all ended up dead. And some ended up shooting each other instead of the enemy. In the end, No beer together, just dead. The survivor killing his own wounded Sargent, saying we fought each other, not the enemy, on his way out of Vietnam. Pure hatred decimated the platoon, and hastened their demise. Only a movie, ...still a lesson could be learned. But rather doubtful.
Don't be too impressed with "lever race gun" videos, slicked up short stroked actions with barely come out the barrel cowboy action loads.
They are certainly handy. Some of them can be pretty accurate, others not. Decent power for the package size.
Reloading them has always been my biggest hang up, they're just slow and fussy for me, even ones with a 120 years worth of break in.
They are certainly handy. Some of them can be pretty accurate, others not. Decent power for the package size.
Reloading them has always been my biggest hang up, they're just slow and fussy for me, even ones with a 120 years worth of break in.
What makes a good "defensive" levergun?
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Ask retarded questions and you get retarded answers. More so in the pit.
A spear makes a gets defensive weapon but given todays options and availability I’ll opt for something better.
A spear makes a gets defensive weapon but given todays options and availability I’ll opt for something better.
So you could *kinda* figure it all out on your own.
Amazing innit ?
You're welcome to dig thru each and every post I have ever made, you'll find I do NOT post any details on reloading whatever, just generalities.
That way, when YOU fuck up, it's nothing to do with me.
Huh, it's almost like I know how stupid people can be, right ?
BTW a .44mag using a .41 mag sizer.......kick that around your noggin a bit and see what comes out.
Styrofoam ? WTF ?
5 minute epoxy and a few paper wads top and bottom.
There, you're now on the right path and I didn't post a thing about powder or amounts, nothing about which shot size, nothing about how to modify the cases to fit.
And yet I'm such a meanie.....right ?
I’m pretty sure that I trained with Chris and his unit back when we wore the same uniform and I ROLLED MY EYES when I saw his “tactical lever gun” video, that guy is drinking his own CoolAid.
I'll try again--what I lack in brains, I make up for in stubborness:
www.browning.com
BLR Lightweight ‘81 Stainless Takedown - Browning
Lever-action rifle with heavy-duty rack and pinion design. Quickly breaks down in two pieces. Grey laminate forearm and stock with straight grip. Precision matte stainless steel barrel and lightweight aluminum receiver with satin nickel finish. Detachable box magazine.
Ok, now do one that takes AR mags, barrel chopped to 12-14”, and threaded…I'll try again--what I lack in brains, I make up for in stubborness:
View attachment 8211098BLR Lightweight ‘81 Stainless Takedown - Browning
Lever-action rifle with heavy-duty rack and pinion design. Quickly breaks down in two pieces. Grey laminate forearm and stock with straight grip. Precision matte stainless steel barrel and lightweight aluminum receiver with satin nickel finish. Detachable box magazine.
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I mean we can go full retard on this if we want
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Now we are talking. I could see myself getting one of these as a nice brush gun in .338Fed or .358Win. Bolt locks into barrel extension like AR15 so it should be easy to spin up another barrel. Heck, one could even craft an integrally suppressed tube for 8.6 Blackout in lieu of a barrel with wooden forearm.I'll try again--what I lack in brains, I make up for in stubborness:
View attachment 8211098BLR Lightweight ‘81 Stainless Takedown - Browning
Lever-action rifle with heavy-duty rack and pinion design. Quickly breaks down in two pieces. Grey laminate forearm and stock with straight grip. Precision matte stainless steel barrel and lightweight aluminum receiver with satin nickel finish. Detachable box magazine.
Worried about overpenetration around the house? Just run a reduced, possibly subsonic, round with a pistol bullet in .358 or Maker bullets in .338. Or use a more suitable gun.
PS: Unfortunately, the takedown short action is sold out everywhere in every caliber. You can pay a 50% premium on gunjoker if you like. But I am not that desperate - yet.
PPS: And there is this if 5 rounds are not enough
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I'm not a traditionalist and don't really care about the wood and steel. The Filson crowd can gnash their teeth about "back in their day." My only gripe with the rifle above is that it is trying to be an AR15, but the AR15 does it better. If I were limited to a lever gun for home defense (and this is how the thread was started), this hits most of the high points. Detachable mag fed? Check. Light? Check. Red dot? Check. Threaded barrel? Check. SBR? Nope, but it could be done easily enough. Would something like this be my go to HD weapon, with no imposed restrictions on the mode of action? Yes, I'd choose an AR15.
My bear gun is a Marlin .444P. The P stands for ported. They theory is that you can work the lever faster with less felt recoil 'cuz the ports (still kicks like a mule). It's like one of those .44 magnum carbines, but for men. The only time I carry a "defensive" lever gun is when I'm defending myself from bears. I would rather not shoot a bear out of season, but I would rather, rather not get mauled. QED
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The above two examples are trying to get people “ar” guns without being shit on by communist states. They are trying to fill a void for people that can’t own a semi auto without mag or feature restrictions.
I could give a shit less what anyone chooses for home defense. That is their choice and the only one they have to justify it to is themselves.
BLR's are one of the most under-rated deer guns out there.
.308... fast throw. Mag fed. Back in the 1980's, if you had one of those, you were the Dude!
Never had one, but not because I didn't want one! Lots of cool calibers. Took high velocity cartridges. Top scope. Belgian made (I think some were Miroku... but pretty sure at least the early ones were Liege.)
And today they are actually bargains! Under-appreciated. For anyone who wants an amazing woods gun, the BLR is one I always recommend to folks.
That and those .44 Mag semi auto's from, I think, Marlin. Great kids guns!
Anyhoo... great post!
Sirhr
Just brought this bad boy home... .70 Caliber. Or lots of roofing nails.
I own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
^^^ No I didn't write that...
Sirhr
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(Sigh)
So....
In our modern near dystopia society.
I'm sure we have all seen the ring videos and various other surveillance videos.
Our breakins aren't simple affairs anymore, where the wily cat burglar slips into the house, to be surprised to learn, someone is home.
We have full on home invasions by 2 and more assailants, mostly armed assholes. This is...more common than you imagine.
They dont care if you are home. They bust the door down, rush in, and guess what? They are rarely armed with single action revolvers. Their "period pieces" are semi auto and sometimes they even have Chinese happy switches on their ghetto gear.
Meanwhile, you are armed with a lever action from 1894. A real game changer in a shootout at the OK Corral, but you are about to be in the suburbs of Fallujah.
You've got a top rate of fire of about 50 rounds per minute, if you are a regular John McQueen.
Your carbine holds 13 rounds total. In 16 seconds you are out of ammo....and pretty well fucked. The good news? That m-lok forend and stock bandalier looks cool as hell.
Not to mention, when the shooting starts, you'll be short stroking that lever, and before you know it, you'll look like a retard humping a doorknob, while trying to get off one more shot.
The modern home defense requires a modern carbine, not an antique rifle with tactitard prophylactic.
Now thats just good advice. I'm not saying you won't be a bad assed motherfucker, if you ice even 3 out of 5 of those shitbirds....even if you do, you still stand a good chance of being the coolest fucker in the whole graveyard. Maybe you'll meet John Wayne and Steve McQueen in the afterlife...that'd be cool too.
I'd rather meet Kyle Rittenhouse while I'm alive, maybe exchange stories over a drink.....
So....
In our modern near dystopia society.
I'm sure we have all seen the ring videos and various other surveillance videos.
Our breakins aren't simple affairs anymore, where the wily cat burglar slips into the house, to be surprised to learn, someone is home.
We have full on home invasions by 2 and more assailants, mostly armed assholes. This is...more common than you imagine.
They dont care if you are home. They bust the door down, rush in, and guess what? They are rarely armed with single action revolvers. Their "period pieces" are semi auto and sometimes they even have Chinese happy switches on their ghetto gear.
Meanwhile, you are armed with a lever action from 1894. A real game changer in a shootout at the OK Corral, but you are about to be in the suburbs of Fallujah.
You've got a top rate of fire of about 50 rounds per minute, if you are a regular John McQueen.
Your carbine holds 13 rounds total. In 16 seconds you are out of ammo....and pretty well fucked. The good news? That m-lok forend and stock bandalier looks cool as hell.
Not to mention, when the shooting starts, you'll be short stroking that lever, and before you know it, you'll look like a retard humping a doorknob, while trying to get off one more shot.
The modern home defense requires a modern carbine, not an antique rifle with tactitard prophylactic.
Now thats just good advice. I'm not saying you won't be a bad assed motherfucker, if you ice even 3 out of 5 of those shitbirds....even if you do, you still stand a good chance of being the coolest fucker in the whole graveyard. Maybe you'll meet John Wayne and Steve McQueen in the afterlife...that'd be cool too.
I'd rather meet Kyle Rittenhouse while I'm alive, maybe exchange stories over a drink.....
I found the one for you OP
Henry makes one in Creedmoor.
But you have to get krylon rainbow flags all over the motherfucker for max fruitness.
www.henryusa.com
Henry makes one in Creedmoor.
But you have to get krylon rainbow flags all over the motherfucker for max fruitness.
The Long Ranger | Henry Repeating Arms
We’ve developed the Henry Long Ranger to stretch the envelope in a design that takes the hunt to the fur in popular calibers at longer distances. The Long Ranger retains traditional lever action operation with an exposed hammer and forged steel lever but updates it with a geared action. A...
www.henryusa.com
Before you guys get too hard on the OP... remember that our HMFWIC @Lowlight was Jonesing for a tactical lever gun.
Hey, maybe it's not the best for self defense... but if you want one, have at it! As long as it's not taking food off the table or detracting from the mortgage payment, have at it and enjoy.
Of course, we may still make fun of you. But never let others dictate what you think is cool, fun and worthy.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS If one of you makes fun of my Russian Imperial belt-fed Maxim that is mounted on ski's... we'll have words!
Hey, maybe it's not the best for self defense... but if you want one, have at it! As long as it's not taking food off the table or detracting from the mortgage payment, have at it and enjoy.
Of course, we may still make fun of you. But never let others dictate what you think is cool, fun and worthy.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS If one of you makes fun of my Russian Imperial belt-fed Maxim that is mounted on ski's... we'll have words!
My backup gun is a Win '94 Trapper Carbine (Conventional lever bail) 44 Rem Mag. it's now my Grandson's (same household), and I'm teaching him reloading on it with XTP's.
It used to be my primary, but was replaced by a Ruger PCC 9 (because of magazine changeability with my Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro). Aside from that, it would still be my primary and is a few pounds lighter than the PCC.
Will one shot stop a bear? Unlikely. But a mag full of 17 of them at 140gr each stands a far better chance than a single 44 Mag. And no lever strokes are required.
Greg
It used to be my primary, but was replaced by a Ruger PCC 9 (because of magazine changeability with my Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro). Aside from that, it would still be my primary and is a few pounds lighter than the PCC.
Will one shot stop a bear? Unlikely. But a mag full of 17 of them at 140gr each stands a far better chance than a single 44 Mag. And no lever strokes are required.
Greg
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Forget the roofing nails, just go for them damned small prickly carpet tacks.
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