What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Infantry common skills:

Cover, concealment and camouflage
Fighting Positions
Movement
Observation
Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare
Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Communications
First Aid and Personal Hygiene
Mines
Ddmolitions
Obstractis
Urban Aras
Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape
Weapons and Fire Control
Field Expedient Antiarmor
Range Cards

And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders
</div></div>

Dude. There are different levels of profficientcy in each of those. If what you are saying is true, then I should be able to take anyone out of the Army of Marine Corps Infantry and plop their ass into Marine Corps Sniper school and have a 100% pass rate.

In YOUR PERFECT Army or my PERFECT Marine Corps......maybe, but this isn't a Walt Disney movie (ie fantasy), this is the REAL world and that is simply not even remotely close to reality.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

That's right, diffenent skill levels, as one progresses he gets promoted.

That's why to don't select private E-nothings as snipers, regardless how they shoot. Nor am I going to send my first sgt.

Some excell at given task better then others, based on the mission, as a company commander I'm going to pick the best soldier who excells in the task required.

 

[sosicmcise]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<span style="font-weight: bold">Long-ing</span> [lawng-ing, long-]
<span style="font-style: italic">noun</span>
1) Strong, persistent desire or craving, especially for something unattainable or distant: <span style="font-style: italic">filled with longing for home.</span>

Anyway, in defense of both sides of the argument, I present the only one that really matters:

1) If you're in an actual sniper team and you have not yet had the opportunity to earn the MOS 0317(8541), your bullets still count in a fight. Later in life, if you need to wear a t-shirt, or hang your hat on how many people you've killed, feel free. You've earned it.

I still support the use of the only true Long Range Sniper Rifle, and the unsung heroes of most battles:

After all, I wish I had been a mortar team leader.

 

[shark0311]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Infantry common skills:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Cover, concealment and camouflage</span>

Infantry units have a basic understanding of this skillset but generally suck in this regard.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Fighting Positions</span>

This is not the same as an FFP or Hide.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Movement</span>

Usualy fast, loud and generally they do not have a good security posture.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Observation</span>

Rudimentary at best and they do not employ the latest and greatest.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare</span>

Who isn't trained to don a mop suite?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence</span>

You are kidding right?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Communications</span>

VHF comm only and dependent on the communications section to make it work

<span style="font-weight: bold">First Aid and Personal Hygiene</span>

WOW

<span style="font-weight: bold">Mines</span>

...um

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ddmolitions</span>

ok

Obstractis
Urban Aras
<span style="font-weight: bold">Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape</span>

What your thinking of is not SERE

<span style="font-weight: bold">Weapons and Fire Control</span>

I would hope so

<span style="font-weight: bold">Field Expedient Antiarmor</span>

?
<span style="font-weight: bold">Range Cards</span>

Yeah

<span style="font-weight: bold">And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders</span>

See my other post
</div></div>

If you can't readily identify the differences then you probably were not trained to.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I do not take anything away from guys who have been tasked with the mission of a Scout Sniper. They deserve all the same respect as an MOS'd Scout Sniper. That being said, I'm not going to call these guys out for saying they are Scout Snipers. They have my respect for sure.

On another point;

There is absolutely no freaking way the Marine Corps Scout Sniper Program should somehow emulate the Armies Sniper program. That is nothing more than the side affects of prolonged morphine smoking being brought until the discussion and should immediately be forgotten and pawned off as the ramblings from a long term user. Lol

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

They're different, I like the army program better, some things I don't like about it, matter of opinion.

Didn't intend to start a pissing contest between services.

 

[Guest]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.</div></div>
Changing that from 11B to 18B would help, but even this old Army puke is not buying a 11B = a Jarhead SS
I do agree, Army CO's most always give the nod to the best they have for the task, no matter what a 201 says.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

everything's a pissing contest lately... total lack of respect...

"I deployed as a sniper in the Marine"..."yeah, but you didn't go to school"

"I went to Scout Sniper school in the Marines"... "yeah, but you never deployed"

"I was a sniper in the Army"... "yeah, but you weren't a Marine"

"I'm a sniper for my local PD"... "no, you're a counter sniper, only the military has snipers"

well guys, I'm a retired nobody and I don't give a fuck.

 

[_RJ_]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I think when I was getting out, the Marine Corps said that in order to go to the Basic course you had to have X amount of time left on your contract. With a heavy deployment schedule and the golden light of EAS in sight, a lot of PIGs never went to school. Most of these guys had multiple deployments in a SS platoon. Would I ever not call these guys I knew "Snipers" no, but I wouldn't call them HOGs either. You earn that title / MOS by graduating from graduating Scout Sniper School. Another thing is, I know those guys could care less if anyone knew they were snipers in the Marine Corps. They have moved on to another chapter of their lives, whether they still deploy to foreign countries or work at Home Depot; nobody can take away what they have done and with what tool they used to do it.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're different, I like the army program better, some things I don't like about it, matter of opinion.

Didn't intend to start a pissing contest between services. </div></div>

No pissing contest bro. You guys do well with what you have going, and the Corps.has their way. What works for us may not be for you and vice versa, ours isn't broke and under no means should it be fixed.

Take care Kraig.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I need to make something understood, just in case I've mislead anyone.

I was never an army sniper, yes I went to school, but the intention was to start a sniper program in my state and I did do that, also taught the regular army and LE, and was a LE "counter" sniper; Actually I went to OCS right after Sniper School, that did put me in a position to sell and magange the program.

But I don't mean to suggest that I was a military sniper.

 

[Graham]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I've been called many things: Some of them are true; many are not. Most of the time I was called something because someone else wanted me to be called that. Of course that didn't make it true. It didn't even make me good at whatever it was that I was being called. Then again, attending a school never made me what I wasn't already - well, except for the label.

Uniforms and rank work the same way: They fool people into thinking that the costume is the man. Of course, if you are part of the club, then that costume may very-well mean something to you because the club's rules apply to you. But if the rules don't apply then whatever window-dressing you see, and what it means to another - baby-killer or hero - remains a crap shoot.

Being a Sniper isn't like being a Grammy or Oscar winner, is it? Maybe more like a Pilot.... No, maybe not a Pilot. What about: Like a Mechanic? Because they have an MOS for Mechanic. Could it be more like a Mechanic? Or maybe more like a Mason... Is is like being a Mason? Because there's a certain amount of popularity, invitation, public service and chance involved in being as Mason. Or, is it more like being like a Doctor or Lawyer... No, not like a Doctor or lawyer because it's not a license or a meal ticket... but maybe somewhat like that because it's a recognized club/fraternity.

I'm getting confused now. Wait... I know... It's something that's only important to certain people when you are talking to those certain people and/or want to claim privileges from the same people who gave you the label. So, if you want a Latte from my Starbucks that'll be $3.66 for a lawyer, $ 3.66 for Mechanic, $ 3.66 for a Mason and $ 3.66 for a Sniper.

 

[cstmwrks]

..

..

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been called many things: Some of them are true; many are not. Most of the time I was called something because someone else wanted me to be called that. Of course that didn't make it true. It didn't even make me good at whatever it was that I was being called. Then again, attending a school never made me what I wasn't already - well, except for the label.

Uniforms and rank work the same way: They fool people into thinking that the costume is the man. Of course, if you are part of the club, then that costume may very-well mean something to you because the club's rules apply to you. But if the rules don't apply then whatever window-dressing you see, and what it means to another - baby-killer or hero - remains a crap shoot.

Being a Sniper isn't like being a Grammy or Oscar winner, is it? Maybe more like a Pilot.... No, maybe not a Pilot. What about: Like a Mechanic? Because they have an MOS for Mechanic. Could it be more like a Mechanic? Or maybe more like a Mason... Is is like being a Mason? Because there's a certain amount of popularity, invitation, public service and chance involved in being as Mason. Or, is it more like being like a Doctor or Lawyer... No, not like a Doctor or lawyer because it's not a license or a meal ticket... but maybe somewhat like that because it's a recognized club/fraternity.

I'm getting confused now. Wait... I know... It's something that's only important to certain people when you are talking to those certain people and/or want to claim privileges from the same people who gave you the label. So, if you want a Latte from my Starbucks that'll be $3.66 for a lawyer, $ 3.66 for Mechanic, $ 3.66 for a Mason and $ 3.66 for a Sniper.</div></div>

BINGO.... it's all about ego

 

[shark0311]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Then again, attending a school never made me what I wasn't already - well, except for the label.
</div></div>

That is very strange as most people go to schools to learn things that they don't already know.

I know at 19 I learned a lot about myself during the second week of BRC. You see every time we would ruck up and run I had this little voice in my head that would say "this is hard". For two weeks this nagging irritating voice would pontificate in my skull. Until I killed it. I realized that nothing was hard but sometimes things could suck. It didn't matter what they were going to ask of me. I would do it until I passed out or died and I wouldn't waste time worrying about it. It changed my life.

As my platoon leader would say "you either do it or you don't".

 

[Graham]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Then again, attending a school never made me what I wasn't already - well, except for the label. </div></div> That is very strange as most people go to schools to learn things that they don't already know...</div></div>Don't get me wrong: I learned a lot at school, some of which was even formally taught. But none of it made me something I wasn't - except to other people.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mission_fail; that's kind of what I'm saying, as a company commander I want the best guy for the mission. I don't really care whether he has the patch or mos.

That's why I'm glad the amry doesn't do the sniper mos bit, and hope they never come up with badges or tabs.

<span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]Most of the task I see in a scout sniper, except for the marksmanship portion, are "common skills" for an infantryman.</span>

</div></div>

Ill agree with Kraig on this one, The Marines have brought this onto its self. With the whole Slug/Pig/Hog thing. Where is the line? There is none. The Army its your a 11B/18/13/ whatever. You might have a B4 in your file, but no one will know other then you telling them. <span style="font-weight: bold">Sounds like for this one thing, Marines should look to its bigger cousin.</span> </div></div>

Um....................NO! </div></div>

Seth, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Or your of the mindset that anything that the Army does is wrong. However, what I'm trying to say is in the Army, you can be ether a DM or a Sniper. But in the end your still infantry. If the Marines would take that same method with in the SS platoons ie. they are all 0300 infantry. Then that solves the issue with who is a true sniper. There would be no mos for SS. They could make it where to be a member of a SS platoon, you had to have ether a designator of 0317 or whatever. I guess the issue is that is the "mofiea" is saying someone who is doing the job, not a true sniper because od a piece of paper saying so. Not being a Marine I might be wrong about is, but within a SS platoon, should all the Hogs be teaching the Pigs everything they learned in sniper school, ie making them ready for real world situations. Who cares if they learn the lesions in sniper school or with in the platoon.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been called many things: Some of them are true; many are not. Most of the time I was called something because someone else wanted me to be called that. Of course that didn't make it true. It didn't even make me good at whatever it was that I was being called. Then again, attending a school never made me what I wasn't already - well, except for the label.

Uniforms and rank work the same way: They fool people into thinking that the costume is the man. Of course, if you are part of the club, then that costume may very-well mean something to you because the club's rules apply to you. But if the rules don't apply then whatever window-dressing you see, and what it means to another - baby-killer or hero - remains a crap shoot.

Being a Sniper isn't like being a Grammy or Oscar winner, is it? Maybe more like a Pilot.... No, maybe not a Pilot. What about: Like a Mechanic? Because they have an MOS for Mechanic. Could it be more like a Mechanic? Or maybe more like a Mason... Is is like being a Mason? Because there's a certain amount of popularity, invitation, public service and chance involved in being as Mason. Or, is it more like being like a Doctor or Lawyer... No, not like a Doctor or lawyer because it's not a license or a meal ticket... but maybe somewhat like that because it's a recognized club/fraternity.

I'm getting confused now. Wait... I know... It's something that's only important to certain people when you are talking to those certain people and/or want to claim privileges from the same people who gave you the label. So, if you want a Latte from my Starbucks that'll be $3.66 for a lawyer, $ 3.66 for Mechanic, $ 3.66 for a Mason and $ 3.66 for a Sniper.</div></div>

BINGO.... it's all about ego </div></div>

It's not about ego, you guys have already went down the ego road and Lowlight educated you.

It's about accomplishments, by those who did the accomplishing, and they are the ones that no what it took to do the accomplishing.

Those who didn't typically try to "downplay" what it took because honestly they never did. Nothing bad or negative on them, but it is what it is. Here's an example of what one member said (who by the way is not a Marine Corps Scout Sniper) ;

"The skills if the Sniper ate nothing more that common infantry skills."

Really, that's good to know..........I operated with the sole mission of a Scout Sniper for 7 years and taught Marine Corps Sniper School for almost 3 years and that's all news to me! Damn, where were you when I eas in? If we new about that, I'm Sute the Marine Corps would have just given guys an option of being a Scout Sniper when they first walked into the recruiting station. No strings attached. Welcome to the Scout Sniper Community bro, here's your rifle and ghillie, git er done.

Graham,

You stated in an earlier post that;

"I wasn't a Marine but I was a paratrooper, and we play second fiddle to know one."

Okay, what if u told you that "you and your paratrooper buddies play second fiddle to no other except a Marine Rifleman with a chute on his back."?

Just because your on the "Snipers Hide" love shooting, have.an expensive rifle/scope combo, and did some time in the Army doesn't mean you have.a clue what it took for Lowlight, Steve, myself, and the.numerous.others to get through Marine SS School. Just like I don't have a clue what its all about to be Paratrooper in the USA.

All thr "actual" Snipers hear have told you guys the same thing, and explained why, yet for some reason you STILL feel the need to inject your opinion and argue the point of a school, skill, and job and a process that you are not a part of. And we're the egotistical ones?

Last time I checked their weren't any issues with how Marine Corps Scout Snipers are at completing the mission, and for the most part, the other services send their Snipers to OUR school as opposed to the other way around. I kinda wonder what that's all about?

It's not an ego thing. It's a standard that has acheived great things over many years and their is no reason to change it now in my mind, or any other 8541's that I know.

I could definately see giving these Marines in Irag/Afghanistan some sort of training overseas to get them trained and.certified as they did in Vietnam. These guys over there need to have the opportunity to get a shot at the coveted mos of 8541. And yes it is a coveted mos in the Scout Sniper Community, even if they are spending 12 weeks learning fundamental infantry skills that were apparently not learned in the "School of Infantry".

 

[Graham]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seth8541</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,

You stated in an earlier post that;

"I wasn't a Marine but I was a paratrooper, and we play second fiddle to know one."</div></div>Nope. Not me. I never said that.
And if I had said that I would have correctly spelled the word 'no'.

I play second fiddle to many people, some of whom are smart and capable and others who are proven morons.
Regardless, I think you have me mixed-up with someone else.

I don't agree that only people who have done a job should be permitted to comment on it. That kind of thinking, other than being anti-democratic, also fails to take into account that many people who do a job also do it poorly.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,

You stated in an earlier post that;

"I wasn't a Marine but I was a paratrooper, and we play second fiddle to know one."</div></div>

That wasn't Graham that made that comment, that was me.

I'll stand by that comment. PARATROOPERS PLAY SECOND FIDDLE TO NO ONE, including your Force Recon.

I'm not going to get into service bashing, I'm proud of my service, most of which, until I took on the job of a commpany commnder was in a "recon" paltoon of one sort of another, including my time in SE Asia.

What I did do, in my sniper schools was interview every prospective student, any who asked about "tabs" or "badges" or "special MOS's" was sent down the road. I wanted soldiers who wanted to be soldiers first, snipers second, not patch chasers.

If I had my life to live over, I wouldn't do one damn thing different, be it my military or Law Enforcement carrier.

 

[Graham]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... patch chasers.</div></div>I've heard of 'badge chasers' and 'fat chasers', but never 'patch chasers'.
I love that term.
I hope you don't mind if I use it.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham,

You stated in an earlier post that;

"I wasn't a Marine but I was a paratrooper, and we play second fiddle to know one."</div></div>

That wasn't Graham that made that comment, that was me.

I'll stand by that comment. PARATROOPERS PLAY SECOND FIDDLE TO NO ONE, including your Force Recon.

I'm not going to get into service bashing, I'm proud of my service, most of which, until I took on the job of a commpany commnder was in a "recon" paltoon of one sort of another, including my time in SE Asia.

What I did do, in my sniper schools was interview every prospective student, any who asked about "tabs" or "badges" or "special MOS's" was sent down the road. I wanted soldiers who wanted to be soldiers first, snipers second, not patch chasers.

If I had my life to live over, I wouldn't do one damn thing different, be it my military or Law Enforcement carrier.



</div></div>

Get off it Kraig. I am well aware that every service has its place.some are better at some things than others. That's why we have 4 different branches. You are missing the point!

The guys in the Marine Corps Scout Sniper Community want to be Scout Snipers! It's not about a badge or a tab, which I think the Army more than makes up for there lack of "special MOS's" with all the "badges" and "tabs" scattered about ever uniform they own.

It just so happens that the Marine Corp

s does validate entry into the Sniper Community with a passing of a school. Does ODA, Force Recon, Seals, CAG, Rangers do any differently? Why is that so hard to grasp for you? Just because your Snipers dont, neither should ours?

You say a Scout Snipers skills are basic infantry skills and I say paratroopers are only out done by a Marine Corps Basic Infantryman with a parachute on his back.

Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it. Kinda shows what I know about your job and vise versa. The coins got 2 sides bud.

 

[mission_fail]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

The price of pride. It hasn't caused any problems in the community that I'm aware of though. Just sparks internet debates =P

edit: Whoa, didn't see the second page before replying to alaskaman's post.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Infantry common skills: ALL part of, as we called them, <span style="font-weight: bold">The 40 Warrior Tasks and Drills</span> prior to OEF VII during two years of train up for the new 10MN DIV LI DSTB(Stand alone fully autonomous unit)

Cover, concealment and camouflage
Fighting Positions
Movement
Observation
Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare
Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Communications
First Aid and Personal Hygiene
Mines
Ddmolitions
Obstractis
Urban Aras
Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape
Weapons and Fire Control
Field Expedient Antiarmor
Range Cards

And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders


If you think for a minute I let my Sergeants take it easy on MY troops(well, their troops, their(SGT's, not just E5's) asses were MINE). I made sure each and every one of them sweat their asses off but good getting damned great at all those tasks. Any one of them could do the job, take over the team leader slot, or lead from the front. Proof? Every single Specialist was wearing those three hard earned stripes when I left, and those Sgt's were ALL wearing that rocker too. All of them can attest to one thing:
The one way range is ten times better than the two way range. Two way ranges suck. Me, I'll just sit back now over bourbon and a good cigar and think to myself. that maybe, just maybe, I had a good time wearing out those joe's, but the success they have now, adn had then, well I guess that's what comes from having solid leadership and tightly woven teams that are made with hard work and sweat. The best part, they all came back not once, but twice. Combat Patrol Leaders in both Afghanistan and Iraq, Special Duties like PSD, and Convoy Security. Good basic stuff. Not one sniper. Gunmen? Weeeelllllll, maybe. A mix of kids and young men and women who only wanted to go to college that turned into what I know are the most solid troops a guy could ever lead was what I saw. I would take 20 of them over any infantry or other troops becasue they were that good. Last I heard, my top Squad Leader is now on the 7 list with maybe three years left to go. The kid that was his A team leader, he's got his rocker. The kid who just got his rocker...mine from E1 days. The one on the 7 list, he was one of my first Sgt's in the old unit before the trasnformation to teh DSTB. I am damn proud of them with all the right to be.
All this talk of school trained, you bet your ass it means something. Mine never went to any schools except maybe MLRM or MLOC, but that was enough. We didn't have snipers, we had ad hoc DMR's and DM's. No real school or certificate, so we don't get all the tabs or whatever. No biggie. Marines and Schools are something different all together. The Marine schools are tough, especailly the sniper schools. That, plus the fact they are Marines makes them just a little better than the rest. A school trained sniper knows more about the job, how he can assist the CO or BNCO, and how his job works with the rest of the unit. A guy who just shoots a scoped rifle, well he shoots a scoped rifle. Even a school trained DM knows how to advise a CO with his skill set so he can be placed in the right position or on the right missions. That's the difference between school trained and other.

 

[Seth8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Infantry common skills: ALL part of, as we called them, <span style="font-weight: bold">The 40 Warrior Tasks and Drills</span> prior to OEF VII during two years of train up for the new 10MN DIV LI DSTB(Stand alone fully autonomous unit)

Cover, concealment and camouflage
Fighting Positions
Movement
Observation
Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare
Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Communications
First Aid and Personal Hygiene
Mines
Ddmolitions
Obstractis
Urban Aras
Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape
Weapons and Fire Control
Field Expedient Antiarmor
Range Cards

And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders


If you think for a minute I let my Sergeants take it easy on MY troops(well, their troops, their(SGT's, not just E5's) asses were MINE). I made sure each and every one of them sweat their asses off but good getting damned great at all those tasks. Any one of them could do the job, take over the team leader slot, or lead from the front. Proof? Every single Specialist was wearing those three hard earned stripes when I left, and those Sgt's were ALL wearing that rocker too. All of them can attest to one thing:
The one way range is ten times better than the two way range. Two way ranges suck. Me, I'll just sit back now over bourbon and a good cigar and think to myself. that maybe, just maybe, I had a good time wearing out those joe's, but the success they have now, adn had then, well I guess that's what comes from having solid leadership and tightly woven teams that are made with hard work and sweat. The best part, they all came back not once, but twice. Combat Patrol Leaders in both Afghanistan and Iraq, Special Duties like PSD, and Convoy Security. Good basic stuff. Not one sniper. Gunmen? Weeeelllllll, maybe. A mix of kids and young men and women who only wanted to go to college that turned into what I know are the most solid troops a guy could ever lead was what I saw. I would take 20 of them over any infantry or other troops becasue they were that good. Last I heard, my top Squad Leader is now on the 7 list with maybe three years left to go. The kid that was his A team leader, he's got his rocker. The kid who just got his rocker...mine from E1 days. The one on the 7 list, he was one of my first Sgt's in the old unit before the trasnformation to teh DSTB. I am damn proud of them with all the right to be.
All this talk of school trained, you bet your ass it means something. Mine never went to any schools except maybe MLRM or MLOC, but that was enough. We didn't have snipers, we had ad hoc DMR's and DM's. No real school or certificate, so we don't get all the tabs or whatever. No biggie. Marines and Schools are something different all together. The Marine schools are tough, especailly the sniper schools. That, plus the fact they are Marines makes them just a little better than the rest. A school trained sniper knows more about the job, how he can assist the CO or BNCO, and how his job works with the rest of the unit. A guy who just shoots a scoped rifle, well he shoots a scoped rifle. Even a school trained DM knows how to advise a CO with his skill set so he can be placed in the right position or on the right missions. That's the difference between school trained and other. </div></div>

Very well put! I agree, and it sounds to me like you trained your troops excellent and prepared them for the situation we are in now. And for that our country, your troops, their families, will be forever greatful, you should be forever proud, and the enemy will forever live in fear.

Semper Fi

 

[Graham]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cover, concealment and camouflage
Fighting Positions
Movement
Observation
Nuclear, Biological, and Cemical Warare
Combat Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Communications
First Aid and Personal Hygiene
Mines
Ddmolitions
Obstractis
Urban Aras
Tracking Survival, Evasion and Escape
Weapons and Fire Control
Field Expedient Antiarmor
Range Cards

And of course Planning, Op and Warning orders
</div></div>You forgot drinking, fighting, and ass-kissing.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Ooh Raahhhhh
Semper Fi Fraterna!

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I think I did pretty well, took a young medic under my wing, talked him into LE, taught him in one of my sniper schools, sent him to OCS, I retired from APD, he retired from APD, I retired from the guard, he's still in the guard, went a bit further then I did, he's the AG for the State of Alaska, Little (Major General) Tommy Katkus. One sharp cookie.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I did pretty well, took a young medic under my wing, talked him into LE, taught him in one of my sniper schools, sent him to OCS, I retired from APD, he retired from APD, I retired from the guard, he's still in the guard, went a bit further then I did, he's the AG for the State of Alaska, Little (Major General) Tommy Katkus. One sharp cookie. </div></div>

I know Tommy! Would love to hear storys of his younger years!

 

[kraigWY]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Tommy! Would love to hear storys of his younger years!</div></div>

Katkus was the best man at my second wedding, I was his best man at his wedding. If you see him ask him about the Bethel Triangle. He was on point, Slaugher was one, and Sgt Beatty of the Yukon the other.

I have lots of stories about Little Tommy Katkus, when he retires I'm going to the "Roast"

I'll tell you a couple things about him. We had a jump in Canada. Had a hung jumper, when we got him to the ground, no breathing, no pulse. Everyone said he was dead, Katkus revived him, saving his life.

Another trip, we were drifting down Clear Creek to the Talkeetna River where we were suppose to be picked up. I was in the first RB 15 and our CO. Tommy was an E-3 at the time and in the second raft. Turns out the raft flipped, Katkus took charge, (over the LT and Sgts on the boat) pulled everyone out of the water, righted the raft, got it on a sand bar, built a fire to dry everything out, the joined us at the pick up point.

Those two incidents got us to send him to OCS.

When Katkus graduated college at the U of VT, he and another guy road their bicycles all the way to Anchorage.

To add a bit about the reliablility of the M16.

At the time Katkus attended my sniper school, he was still in the Abn Det but I had moved on to take a company in the 1st Scouts in Nome. Some RA LT showed up at the range saying he had to show an ammo usage or loose his allocation for the next year. I said fine, and he dropped off 35K rounds of M193 and 26K of machine gun ammo.

I sent Katkus back to the Abn Det to pick up 10 M16s and gave the class the day off and we comminced to get ride of the M193. We flat turned some '16 barrels red. The guns held up though.

Also ask him about the directions to my new lawn mower. He was staying with me between houses. I just got a new lawm mower and though we were drinking abit, We bring it in the house and put it together. Tommy fired it up and it ate the directions.

You hear of people with book smarts and no common sense, and you hear about people with common sense and no book smarts. Few have both. Tommy Katkus was one of those, he is one sharp cookie.

He made General when they had the Missle Defense System in Greely. It was a joint RA-NG Operation. They promoted Katkus and put him in charge over all the RA Officers.

Tommy Katkus was one great soldier and Officer.

Was a great cop too, great for getting grants for the department. Also built computer programs that simplified our payroll. He got the grant from the feds to work on Drunk Drivers. We had to work overtime per the grant doing nothing but DWIs. Our retirement was based on our high three. I worked the grants the last three years on the department, that's basicly 30 hours of over time per week (we worked 4-10s) which doubled my retirement, meaning I didn't have to go to work when I retire.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Tommy! Would love to hear storys of his younger years!</div></div>

Katkus was the best man at my second wedding, I was his best man at his wedding. If you see him ask him about the Bethel Triangle. He was on point, Slaugher was one, and Sgt Beatty of the Yukon the other.

I have lots of stories about Little Tommy Katkus, when he retires I'm going to the "Roast"

I'll tell you a couple things about him. We had a jump in Canada. Had a hung jumper, when we got him to the ground, no breathing, no pulse. Everyone said he was dead, Katkus revived him, saving his life.

Another trip, we were drifting down Clear Creek to the Talkeetna River where we were suppose to be picked up. I was in the first RB 15 and our CO. Tommy was an E-3 at the time and in the second raft. Turns out the raft flipped, Katkus took charge, (over the LT and Sgts on the boat) pulled everyone out of the water, righted the raft, got it on a sand bar, built a fire to dry everything out, the joined us at the pick up point.

Those two incidents got us to send him to OCS.

When Katkus graduated college at the U of VT, he and another guy road their bicycles all the way to Anchorage.

To add a bit about the reliablility of the M16.

At the time Katkus attended my sniper school, he was still in the Abn Det but I had moved on to take a company in the 1st Scouts in Nome. Some RA LT showed up at the range saying he had to show an ammo usage or loose his allocation for the next year. I said fine, and he dropped off 35K rounds of M193 and 26K of machine gun ammo.

I sent Katkus back to the Abn Det to pick up 10 M16s and gave the class the day off and we comminced to get ride of the M193. We flat turned some '16 barrels red. The guns held up though.

Also ask him about the directions to my new lawn mower. He was staying with me between houses. I just got a new lawm mower and though we were drinking abit, We bring it in the house and put it together. Tommy fired it up and it ate the directions.

You hear of people with book smarts and no common sense, and you hear about people with common sense and no book smarts. Few have both. Tommy Katkus was one of those, he is one sharp cookie.

He made General when they had the Missle Defense System in Greely. It was a joint RA-NG Operation. They promoted Katkus and put him in charge over all the RA Officers.

Tommy Katkus was one great soldier and Officer.

Was a great cop too, great for getting grants for the department. Also built computer programs that simplified our payroll. He got the grant from the feds to work on Drunk Drivers. We had to work overtime per the grant doing nothing but DWIs. Our retirement was based on our high three. I worked the grants the last three years on the department, that's basicly 30 hours of over time per week (we worked 4-10s) which doubled my retirement, meaning I didn't have to go to work when I retire.
</div></div>

I'll PM you later about the guy

 

[Cuban Croc]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

I have read the posts and agree w/Seth. The reason I am agreeing is due to the schooling issue. I went through Navy SAR Swimmer School in 1994. It took something to make it through the school (not everyone made it). That does not mean if a person was drowning and another person saved him/her that person is not a hero. He/she could be a hero...does not make them a SAR swimmer. The did not go through the school.

Again, it does not mean that a person is not a soldier, good shooter, patriot, a role as a sniper (and a good one). That person did not go through the school. It has nothing to do w/ his/her character and service.

Just my opinion.

 

[nock]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Passing grade.

 

[cmrs8541]

Re: What makes a Marine a “Sniper?”

Whether you're an MOS-toting dude or not AND you are serving in a combat zone in a sniper billet you can join this sniper club:

http://usmcscoutsniper.org/

Send an application from your FPO address with your Plt Sgt's name on it and, after some quick vetting, we immediately approve your membership-----MOS or not. We even waive your dues!

Other than that, stop worrying about it.......no one will give a rat's ass in 20 years and you can tell some war stories for free beers at the local VFW.

I know plenty of MOS qualified dudes who aren't worth a shit-some of them can't even properly zero their scope. Conversely, I would have granted the MOS to plenty-o-swine from the old platoon.

The whole PIG/HOG thing is gay. We never allowed it in our platoon. You passed the INDOC and were treated as a critical asset to the accomplishment of the mission. When shit's real---that's all that <span style="font-weight: bold">really</span> matters!