What mentality should a hunter bring to F-Class?

[tea&jam]

My first F-Class league starts here on Monday! Thinking out loud...

-My goal isn't to be competitive, but instead soak up any knowledge I can to become a better long range hunter.
-My set-up is not typical F-Class, no machine front rest, no solid rear bag with ears. Just a Harris bipod and a small rear bag, and I like it that way.
-I'm going to try to ignore any wind flags and instead practice reading mirage and natural indicators.


Questions that come to mind...

Is F-Class a good use of my time & money? I have access to public land with 1000+ yds; would I learn more there? F-Class range is 600 yds.
What questions should I be asking the experienced shooters?
What's your favorite data book page for F-Class?
How do you read mirage? Through your rifle scope or through your spotting scope? Why?
How important is weather data? Should I buy a Kestrel? (The stupidest question here)
What bad habits should I watch out for? (Things that F-class shooters do that don't apply to long range hunting.)

What else am I missing? Thanks for reading

 

[...]

There’s going to be nothing special about shooting F class that will help your situation any more than simply shooting and practicing at long ranges won’t do.

You’ll have the benefit of talking to other competitors about shooting and technique.... but that’s about it.

Any shooting is good practice..... but you can accomplish the same thing on your own shooing f class targets.... no need to pay match fees.

I think something like PRS might better translate skills to hunting than f class would

 

[Erud]

F-Class will help you with pure shooting and understanding of conditions. Shooting competitions with better shooters than you will teach you lessons very quickly that could take years to figure out on your own. The near-instant feedback you get from the target gives you tons of info that is hard to find anywhere else. Keeping an eye on your neighbor's targets can also be very revealing, especially if you are newer to the sport. Talk to the shooters who consistently keep shots in the middle, and try to figure out what they know that you don't. It isn't the most practical type of shooting, but it can certainly make you better shooter. At any rate, "Practical" shooting is sort of a misnomer as there is really no practical application of any type of shooting skills in normal, everyday life.

All of your specific questions will be better answered by people you meet at the match, and you will have a lot better idea yourself after you get your feet wet.

Also, any shooting is NOT good practice...

 

[...]

Also, any shooting is NOT good practice...

compared to not shooting at all......yes it is.

 

[Erud]

compared to not shooting at all......yes it is.

Sorry, I strongly disagree.

 

[...]

Sorry, I strongly disagree.

....good for you.....

but i dont know a single person that learned to shoot by not shooting.

 

[Erud]

Going out and blasting away when you have no idea what you are doing, as many (most?) shooters do, only serves to reinforce bad habits and poor technique. It really doesn't foster anything positive. Go to your local indoor pistol range that is open to the public and tell me how you think everyone there is benefitting from the "good practice" they are putting in. "Any shooting is good practice" is just a dopey generalization.


Also, I don't think you understand what an ellipsis is used for.

 

[...]

Going out and blasting away when you have no idea what you are doing, as many (most?) shooters do, only serves to reinforce bad habits and poor technique. It really doesn't foster anything positive. Go to your local indoor pistol range that is open to the public and tell me how you think everyone there is benefitting from the "good practice" they are putting in. "Any shooting is good practice" is just a dopey generalization.


Also, I don't think you understand what an ellipsis is used for.

i use ellipses because i have dyslexia....and using ellipses helps space out the words and makes it easier to read.......so from the bottom of my heart......go fuck yourself.


but youre right......you should totally just sit your ass on the couch and "dry fire"....maybe read some ballistics tables.....thats much more productive than actually shooting.


you cant claim "just shooting isnt helpful" based on the shooters at a public range.......most people at the range shoot once a month(if that)........if they went to the range to "just shoot" once or twice a week, theyd be pretty damn good.......assuming you even made a half assed attempt at "marksmanship".

Jesus Christ..... some shooters come up with the dumbest fucking excuses not to go to the range and shoot

 

[Erud]

i use ellipses because i have dyslexia....and using ellipses helps space out the words and makes it easier to read.......so from the bottom of my heart......go fuck yourself.


but youre right......you should totally just sit your ass on the couch and "dry fire"....maybe read some ballistics tables.....thats much more productive than actually shooting.


you cant claim "just shooting isnt helpful" based on the shooters at a public range.......most people at the range shoot once a month(if that)........if they went to the range to "just shoot" once or twice a week, theyd be pretty damn good.......assuming you even made a half assed attempt at "marksmanship".

Well, that escalated quickly. Sorry about your dyslexia, and your hurt feelings. You could just use the space bar, it also will space the words out, and it makes everything you type make more sense than just throwing a bunch of extra periods all over the place. Not sure where "dry fire" came into this, no one had mentioned it until you did just now.

Just to help get you back on track here; you stated that "Any shooting is good practice." I stated that that is incorrect. Sure, some shooting is good practice, but plenty of shooting is not good practice. Some types of shooting/practice are detrimental and serve only to reinforce the negative. That is pretty obvious if you take some time to observe people shooting, and arguing against it seems sort of silly. I've known lots of people that shoot often, but don't ever improve. Attempting marksmanship does not equal marksmanship. Most shooters will plateau very quickly without some sort of instruction or competition. Many just don't know what they don't know, and "practicing" in a vacuum doesn't do anything to help with that. Shooting on F-class targets by yourself in your yard has nowhere near the same potential for learning and improvement as shooting in a match against other people. Similar to how playing "horse" in the driveway with your little brother when you are 14 is a lot different than practicing with the high school varsity basketball team. Maybe you really didn't mean "all" shooting in your original comment? If that's the case, then we probably agree. I'm sure you personally are an elite marksman, so maybe you don't notice stuff like this anymore?

 

[Changed]

Go to learn, and understand that you may not be a rockstar. Hitting the X is challenging, mainly due to environmental conditions. So watch the wind.

 

[W54/XM-388]

/me ((make sure you correctly annotate your OOC remarks))

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[...]

jesus christ.....the Hide is slowly becoming amateur hour......and not even the good amateur hour with desperate teens with daddy issues.

 

[tea&jam]

I doubt anyone cares what I think, but I don't mind the heated back and forth. It keeps the thread near the top where more eyes will hopefully see it...

By chance, do one of you shoot Palma?

 

[...]

I doubt anyone cares what I think, but I don't mind the heated back and forth. It keeps the thread near the top where more eyes will hopefully see it...

By chance, do one of you shoot Palma?

i primarily shoot smallbore.....which is a very similar format to Palma.

if you have the option to shoot Palma, i would recommend that as well, shooting from a Sling is an entirely different dynamic than shooting from a bipod (personally i like it better, i feel its a lot more consistent than a bipod).......

 

[natdscott]

Palma with an A2.

 

[tea&jam]

I should give sling shooting a second chance. I wouldn't be into shooting at all if my good friend who is an Appleseed instructor hadn't offered to lend me a 10/22, a sling, and waive the fee for a weekend clinic. It got me HOOKED!

However, after I got my own rifle, I couldn't get comfortable with the sling the first handful of times I tried, so I gave up and switched to a bipod. I now suspect I didn't have my body angled enough in my prone position...

 

[...]

I should give sling shooting a second chance. I wouldn't be into shooting at all if my good friend who is an Appleseed instructor hadn't offered to lend me a 10/22, a sling, and waive the fee for a weekend clinic. It got me HOOKED!

However, after I got my own rifle, I couldn't get comfortable with the sling the first handful of times I tried, so I gave up and switched to a bipod. I now suspect I didn't have my body angled enough in my prone position...

prone definitely takes practice to get used to......kneeling and sitting even more than that.


i would make sure that you try using a quality sling, something like the TAB or Armageddon sling would be a good choice.....and you want to make sure you get the sling as high on your bicep as possible.

regarding body angle, you want to be straight behind the rifle.....you dont want to be at an angle relative to your barrel.

 

[tea&jam]

regarding body angle, you want to be straight behind the rifle.....you dont want to be at an angle relative to your barrel.

When shooting off a bipod, my body is in line with the barrel.

Are you also saying that when shooting with a sling it should be the same? I've gotten mixed messaged on that.

 

[...]

When shooting off a bipod, my body is in line with the barrel.

Are you also saying that when shooting with a sling it should be the same? I've gotten mixed messaged on that.

Yes, you want as much of your body in a straight line behind the rifle as possible to manage recoil

A lot like this

Now because of body mechanics, you’re always going to be at a slight angle....

But what you want to avoid is a situation like this.... despite what the official looking graphic says

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

I was taught as a youngster the old school method slightly off line . I can kill anything like that, at the distances I would try to kill things from. When I started into precision shooting I had to unlearn a few things. Also had to brush up on my prone shooting.

Most any scopes with a high enough zoom can see mirage . However the wider fov and often times higher magnifacation of a spotting scope definitely makes it easier to read.

Being behind the rifle is a good practice regardless of position. When I got into bullet hoses I learnt me the new way of standing squared up and utilizing more body to control recoil under rapid fire.. sling, prone, sitting, squaring up typically works better.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Shooting a hard hitting larger game cartridge in a rifle light enough to lug up a hill all day, without a muzzle brake can require a bit of a different shooting position than shooting a 15-20 pound .308 / 6.5CM rifle with a suppressor / brake on a nice range.

So a lot depends on what you are shooting & where.

 

[natdscott]

I was taught as a youngster the old school method slightly off line . I can kill anything like that, at the distances I would try to kill things from. When I started into precision shooting I had to unlearn a few things. Also had to brush up on my prone shooting.

Most any scopes with a high enough zoom can see mirage . However the wider fov and often times higher magnifacation of a spotting scope definitely makes it easier to read.

Being behind the rifle is a good practice regardless of position. When I got into bullet hoses I learnt me the new way of standing squared up and utilizing more body to control recoil under rapid fire.. sling, prone, sitting, squaring up typically works better.

Not in precision offhand.

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

Not in precision offhand.

Or free recoil

 

[mi223]

Well this thread is going all over... what is an ellipse?...

I have been saying I am going to shoot a fclass. How offten do you get to have someone mark your target for you every shot? As long as you are making an effort to learn something every time you press the trigger i say all practice is good.

 

[tea&jam]

Most any scopes with a high enough zoom can see mirage . However the wider fov and often times higher magnifacation of a spotting scope definitely makes it easier to read.

My Razor 16-48x65 spotter is great for looking at mirage, but then I find I am breaking my cheek-weld between every shot to watch the wind. The next thing I'm going to try is looking through my scope (Gen 1 Razor), but I'm sure that's going to have it's trade-offs with having to fiddle with the parallax. With my spotter, I get the target in focus, and then back it off some to see the wind in-between.

 

[DanSavage]

I would say from personal experience that it would depend on your rifle. If you have a custom heavy barrel it would definitely progress your skills to shoot f-class matches.

If you have a factory barrel,, then shoot on your own,, 3 shot groups then let the barrel cool.

But to hone your skills to the highest degree, get a good heavy aftermarket barrel and shoot f-class.

The X is where you want to be,, hunting or f-class.

 

[tea&jam]

I've got a standard palma contour, 30" Brux, total rifle weight with scope is just under 18 lbs. Chambered in the sexy Swede. I was thinking ahead towards F-Class when I had the rifle rebarreled.

 

[DanSavage]

Yes, you want as much of your body in a straight line behind the rifle as possible to manage recoil

A lot like this
View attachment 6891310

Now because of body mechanics, you’re always going to be at a slight angle....

But what you want to avoid is a situation like this.... despite what the official looking graphic says

View attachment 6891311

I agree,, but.... I know of a guy that shoots angled and can shoot a clean 40 round match. Maybe it's because the position was more for small bore.
I read that the right leg angled keeps your heart slightly higher of the shooting mat, and also the position produces less fatigue.
I have personally shot .22 very well angled. But .308 and above I always was more consistent straight behind.

Good read,, been a while since I've been on the ole hide!

 

[DanSavage]

I've got a standard palma contour, 30" Brux, total rifle weight with scope is just under 18 lbs. Chambered in the sexy Swede. I was thinking ahead towards F-Class when I had the rifle rebarreled.

Definitely shoot,, proceeds granted.Lol

 

[sandwarrior]

Aside from what all has been discussed above, I suggest to the OP that he go to the F-Class shoots with a competitive attitude. Not an "in your face" type attitude, rather one of how do I fine tune my shooting to beat these guys. Like many gun circles competitors help each other out often with tips, tricks of the trade, and what's new that they are doing.

So, for one, you'll know how you shoot against yourself over the time of going to the competitions and two, you'll know how well your are really doing against other good shooters. Evaluating yourself, you can't say you are as good of a shooter in the field if the same guy you shoot with keeps hitting a lot of X's on half size targets, when you are teetering between nines and tens. I think that group of shooters would be an excellent resource for you.

 

[tea&jam]

@sandwarrior, I think I know what you mean, but I got a little lost in that second paragraph.

I definitely see myself doing a quiet internal competition with some of the other shooters, and using it as motivation to be meticulous in my reloading, etc. But I am capable of becoming a prideful little shit, so I also want to be careful not to let my ego get in the way of asking someone who did better than me how they were reading the wind. None of my nearby friends are into shooting, so the social aspect is something I'm looking forward to.

 

[Erud]

I shoot a little Palma. OP, if you are interested in trying prone with a sling again, there are lots opportunities in your area, mainly the same matches as the f-class guys shoot. There are some really good sling shooters around, and they all pretty much love helping new shooters. The same can be said for the f-class guys. The whole group is solid dudes all around, mostly one big happy family with the occasional family squabble.

Position a very subjective and will vary quite a lot, even between top shooters. Try to look at what some of the best are doing and use that as a baseline for how to get started. Just don’t get married to any particular aspect too early, as there will be countless factors that will decide whether someone else’s position will work for you.

 

[sandwarrior]

@sandwarrior, I think I know what you mean, but I got a little lost in that second paragraph.

I definitely see myself doing a quiet internal competition with some of the other shooters, and using it as motivation to be meticulous in my reloading, etc. But I am capable of becoming a prideful little shit, so I also want to be careful not to let my ego get in the way of asking someone who did better than me how they were reading the wind. None of my nearby friends are into shooting, so the social aspect is something I'm looking forward to.

It seems a little wordy, but the premise is after you shoot and evaluate yourself, you'll see where / if you are improving or not. Being in a bunch of F-Class shooters and working with them, you will be able to evaluate your weaknesses and improve upon them.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I compete against myself, it's tough competition, and I can use all the help I can get. Anybody can beat me, I do it to myself all the time.

I'd ask to be squadded with someone who's good with beginners, tell them you're new and need to learn everything from scratch, listen to what they say, and ask if you didn't get it straight in your mind. Be humble. The most educational portion will be back in the pits, while servicing the targets, and talking about it all.

Bring as little as possible, learn how to use that effectively, and only add those things that are recommended by your squadded partners. Bring enough hydration. Electronic muffs that allow conversations are a big plus. Only use a spotting scope if your rifle scope isn't able to do the job. If your rifle scope can't do that, get one that can. Save the big ticket purchases for when you have the skills to justify the cost. Expensive only equals good if you have the skills to use it effectively.

What you learn at the comp is what you need to know. Winning is a coincidence that happens while you're learning; not often, and not soon.

Read this, too.

The Internet is a great way to find things, but learning takes place on the range, and the basic knowledge can be found in the right books. 'Teach me F Class' is not a reasonable question, you end up getting shotgunned, like is happening above. Clear your mind, open it up to be used as a blank slate.

Practice is supposed to be goal oriented, working on a particular skill or two each session. Build on what you know works.

Note, I am an F Class pilgrim, not an F class winner.

I brought my Granddaughter to the 2017 Berger SW LR Nationals, it was her first formal match of any kind, and I threw her to the wolves. They threw me back an F Class shooter. She had read the book first.

Greg

 

[tea&jam]

Anybody have a data-book page they really like for F-Class/Palma? Or one you really hate...

I've gotten a lot out of Ryan Cleckner's videos on the subject. Book is on order now, thanks Greg. Thank you everybody for all the replies!

7 hours, and counting!

 

[CharlieNC]

Two areas F class will help vs just shooting. One is the target rings are small with the Xring being 1/2 moa: teaches you aim small-shoot small. Secondly marking every shot increases your learning experience when it comes to figuring out the wind, what went wrong or right with a shot, etc: message is immediate feedback on an aim-small target helps you learn.

 

[SubOptimal]

My first F-Class league starts here on Monday! Thinking out loud...

-My goal isn't to be competitive, but instead soak up any knowledge I can to become a better long range hunter.
-My set-up is not typical F-Class, no machine front rest, no solid rear bag with ears. Just a Harris bipod and a small rear bag, and I like it that way.
-I'm going to try to ignore any wind flags and instead practice reading mirage and natural indicators.


Questions that come to mind...

Is F-Class a good use of my time & money? I have access to public land with 1000+ yds; would I learn more there? F-Class range is 600 yds.
What questions should I be asking the experienced shooters?
What's your favorite data book page for F-Class?
How do you read mirage? Through your rifle scope or through your spotting scope? Why?
How important is weather data? Should I buy a Kestrel? (The stupidest question here)
What bad habits should I watch out for? (Things that F-class shooters do that don't apply to long range hunting.)

What else am I missing? Thanks for reading

One thing I learned very quickly when I first started in any form of competition, which for me was trap shooting but that is neither here nor there,
Make every shot your only shot, what you have done in the past does not matter, what you will do in the future doesn't matter, there is only this shot. Do the best you can and focus on success.
You will learn things from your competitors, some useful to you, some not. Don't be afraid to try new things but don't let the new things interfere with making this shot your best. It is easy to get lost in the Fudd to the detriment of your shooting. There still is only THIS shot.

 

[tea&jam]

The last couple of weeks was an equipment check at shorter ranges and then a blizzard, but this week we finally got out to 600 yds. My score: 187-2X



As a neat side note: absolutely no wind. The firing line ended up hazy with powder smoke. First time I've really had to contend with barrel mirage, too.

 

[Erud]

Good shooting!