What rifle for a friend?

[kentactic]

He's a LEO and is interested in a semi-auto rifle. the two hes looking at are the KelTec su16ca with the pistol grip conversion or the Remington R-25 in .308

this rifles purpose is for 0-300 yards with tactical offense/defense in mind.

i say the keltec is out right off the bat for betting your life on.

is the R-25 a good candidate or are there other rifles in this same price range off the shelf that would make more sense?

kenny

 

[Peepaw]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Wow, I think all you did was confuse yourself and your friend.
Im thinking you will get no less then 10+ opinions on which rifle and why.
And, alot will come on here and tell you that Rem QC has gone down crapper last year or so since the DPMS thing.

Me? I LOVE Rem. and will continue to buy products from them.

But, from 0-300 yards, you are leaving yourself alot of options, and not just limited to a particular cal.

Is weight a concern for your friend? Doing any CQ?

Man, there are so many options out there..whew


Why does he want the .308? Because of ammo? Or just wants more "stopping" power, or??

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peepaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, I think all you did was confuse yourself and your friend.
Im thinking you will get no less then 10+ opinions on which rifle and why.
And, alot will come on here and tell you that Rem QC has gone down crapper last year or so since they DPMS thing.

Me? I LOVE Rem. and will continue to buy products from them.

But, from 0-300 yards, you are leaving yourself alot of options, and not just limited to a particular cal.

Is weight a concern for your friend? Doing any CQ?

Man, there are so many options out there..whew </div></div>

yep i realize there are many many options.. and i will get many different ideas... personally i dont touch AR/AK platforms because this is california and there illegal without rediculous modifications like bullet buttons. so with that said im not hip to the different brands etc. i just want to hear some ideas so i can start researhing them for him to make my final recommendtion.

i dont understand what you mean by confuse myself and my friend but if you have a recomendation i would like to hear it.

the rifle just needs to be simple, battle accurate, reliable and if in .223 probably take standard AR/M16 mags.

he plans to put a red dot on it against my personal opinion on battery powered crap so take that into account.

im limiting him to either .223 or .308 for the simple fact that those are common calibers used by civilians and our military/LE so ammo can be had easier in a bad situation.

weight is a semi concern... if its in .308 its gonna weigh more...thats fine... lets keep it under say 10lbs before any optics etc.

is the R-25 Reliable, battle tough, relatively accurate, simple in design? would you trust it with your life if you were running around iraq?

if it meets all of these requirements ill recommend it to him because he already has decided he likes it based only on looks.

 

[Peepaw]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peepaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, I think all you did was confuse yourself and your friend.
Im thinking you will get no less then 10+ opinions on which rifle and why.
And, alot will come on here and tell you that Rem QC has gone down crapper last year or so since they DPMS thing.

Me? I LOVE Rem. and will continue to buy products from them.

But, from 0-300 yards, you are leaving yourself alot of options, and not just limited to a particular cal.

Is weight a concern for your friend? Doing any CQ?

Man, there are so many options out there..whew </div></div>

yep i realize there are many many options.. and i will get many different ideas... personally i dont touch AR/AK platforms because this is california and there illegal without rediculous modifications like bullet buttons. so with that said im not hip to the different brands etc.

<span style="color: #CC0000">i dont understand what you mean by confuse myself and my friend but if you have a recomendation i would like to hear it. </span>the rifle just needs to be simple, battle accurate, reliable and if in .223 probably take standard AR/M16 mags.

he plans to put a red dot on it against my personal opinion on battery powered crap so take that into account.

im limiting him to either .223 or .308 for the simple fact that those are common calibers used by civilians and our military/LE so ammo can be had for cheaper in a bad situation.

weight is a semi concern... if its in .308 its gonna weigh more...thats fine... lets keep it under say 10lbs before any optics etc.

</div></div>


Well, just meant that in your OP, you left out alot of details, and with the people around here, next thing you know, you have a million different opinions, and 100 posts, and your head is spinning, and ends up making your decison more difficult, because you get so many good opinions, not sure WHAT to do. That's all NO offense or disrespect meant, hope none was taken.


OK, back to OP...
Well, either 308 or 223 will get you under 10 lbs no problem, so you can go either route there, and just like you said, 223 or 308 is plentiful.

So, all of that being said, and seems like everything being equal, would go 308 for stopping power. Obviously the 223 has done it's fair share of damage, but I would lean 308, and would probaly go Armalite or Larue or Rock River, 18"


Oh, and reason I left out the rem is only because I really haven't heard/seen that much about Remingtons AR to draw up a fair comparison. That being said, I DO like Rem and would think that it is a nice rifle.

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

ok great thanks for the responce. ill research your recommendations.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Did you consider a m1a with a short barrel?

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Hoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you consider a m1a with a short barrel? </div></div>

not only did i consider it, i bought one for myself.. full length barrel though. but i will recommend it to him. the problem will likely be the 6 month wait to get his hands on it.

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Is he planning in shooting through glass? And what type of accuracy a 300 meters?
77 grain and 75grain will get you good groups and put someone down at 300meters. But don't expect to reliably kill some one with it shooting through the windsheild. When that round shatters you will most likely pepper the tgt with copper shards.
He can carry a mag of green tip which has much better penetrating power, but you are losing alot of accuracy.
An 16" barrel M4 (I get sub minute with my LT DMR) Is manueverable and easy to employ, ammo is light and you can carry alot.
A 16" 7.62x51 gas gun is a good alternative. The ergonomics are the same as an M4 and they are user friendly. Once again I like LT OBR with a collapsable stock. It's sub MOA out of the box.
Our M118LR will punch through a windshied at 300meters no problem.
Yes I am a fan of LT becuase that's what I shoot and it works for me.
Optics wise 300 meters is starting to push it for a red dot. Sure we can shoot that far but target ID becomes a problem. Out to 300 I use my eotech and a 3 power magnifier. It is sufficient to Id a weapon and get consistant body shots.
not really recommended for low percentage shots though.
You could go with a low power scope with a red dot on top. I like the red dot for shooting out of helos and moving vehicles. The magnified optic for the longer range stuff.
My set up is a horus blackbird 1.5 to 8 with an aimpoint T1 mounted on top of the scope. My blackbird never goes below 4 power.

 

[1stIDvet]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

With everything you stated I would believe an M1A Scout with either the SA scout rail, or the ultimak rail and a (2 moa) aim point would be perfect.

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is he planning in shooting through glass? And what type of accuracy a 300 meters?
77 grain and 75grain will get you good groups and put someone down at 300meters. But don't expect to reliably kill some one with it shooting through the windsheild. When that round shatters you will most likely pepper the tgt with copper shards.
He can carry a mag of green tip which has much better penetrating power, but you are losing alot of accuracy.
An 16" barrel M4 (I get sub minute with my LT DMR) Is manueverable and easy to employ, ammo is light and you can carry alot.
A 16" 7.62x51 gas gun is a good alternative. The ergonomics are the same as an M4 and they are user friendly. Once again I like LT OBR with a collapsable stock. It's sub MOA out of the box.
Our M118LR will punch through a windshied at 300meters no problem.
Yes I am a fan of LT becuase that's what I shoot and it works for me.
Optics wise 300 meters is starting to push it for a red dot. Sure we can shoot that far but target ID becomes a problem. Out to 300 I use my eotech and a 3 power magnifier. It is sufficient to Id a weapon and get consistant body shots.
not really recommended for low percentage shots though.
You could go with a low power scope with a red dot on top. I like the red dot for shooting out of helos and moving vehicles. The magnified optic for the longer range stuff.
My set up is a horus blackbird 1.5 to 8 with an aimpoint T1 mounted on top of the scope. My blackbird never goes below 4 power.



</div></div>


doing a quick google search the LT OBR seems a little above his price range. i think hes looking at more like $1500 or less... honestly i wish he would just do his own damn research but hes kind of lost with this type of thing...

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1stIDvet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With everything you stated I would believe an M1A Scout with either the SA scout rail, or the ultimak rail and a (2 moa) aim point would be perfect. </div></div>

i agree. well see what he says...

 

[mwroseberry]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Saiga 308 and convert it

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is he planning in shooting through glass? And what type of accuracy a 300 meters?
77 grain and 75grain will get you good groups and put someone down at 300meters. But don't expect to reliably kill some one with it shooting through the windsheild. When that round shatters you will most likely pepper the tgt with copper shards.
He can carry a mag of green tip which has much better penetrating power, but you are losing alot of accuracy.
An 16" barrel M4 (I get sub minute with my LT DMR) Is manueverable and easy to employ, ammo is light and you can carry alot.
A 16" 7.62x51 gas gun is a good alternative. The ergonomics are the same as an M4 and they are user friendly. Once again I like LT OBR with a collapsable stock. It's sub MOA out of the box.
Our M118LR will punch through a windshied at 300meters no problem.
Yes I am a fan of LT becuase that's what I shoot and it works for me.
Optics wise 300 meters is starting to push it for a red dot. Sure we can shoot that far but target ID becomes a problem. Out to 300 I use my eotech and a 3 power magnifier. It is sufficient to Id a weapon and get consistant body shots.
not really recommended for low percentage shots though.
You could go with a low power scope with a red dot on top. I like the red dot for shooting out of helos and moving vehicles. The magnified optic for the longer range stuff.
My set up is a horus blackbird 1.5 to 8 with an aimpoint T1 mounted on top of the scope. My blackbird never goes below 4 power.



</div></div>


doing a quick google search the LT OBR seems a little above his price range. i think hes looking at more like $1500 or less... honestly i wish he would just do his own damn research but hes kind of lost with this type of thing...
</div></div>

I agree a rifle is merely a tool, and without really knowing how it is to be utilized it's hard to advise someone. We just have to tell him what we would use. You don't need a sub minute gun to spray a car at 300 or just hit a dude. Amy off the shelf 16" AR with an ACOG, or a horus talon would be more than suffecient.

 

[dlc356]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Is he in CA too? I'm guessing since he's LE that he can get around some of the AR mods that you can't (not too familiar w/yall's gun laws)? If that's the case, what happens when he retires? If he would have to modify it later that might affect his decision now.

I love my M1A Scout and think it would meet the requirements you listed. That said a .308 AR would do the same but do it more accurately... If he decides on a 5.56 I would suggest a <span style="text-decoration: underline">insert reputable maker's name here</span> AR.

 

[Bamf911]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Not sure about the Cali laws but a M1A socom or a variant might fit the bill. LMT MWS could be configured as a battle rifle. A good old AR .223 is cheap to shoot and common in the LE/Military communities for that type of employment. Plenty of options. Mentioned above since he is LE he can likely have things typical civilians can't. Would be worth looking into.

 

[T-Hoe]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

+1 for the m1a scout.

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dlc356</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is he in CA too? I'm guessing since he's LE that he can get around some of the AR mods that you can't (not too familiar w/yall's gun laws)? If that's the case, what happens when he retires? If he would have to modify it later that might affect his decision now.

I love my M1A Scout and think it would meet the requirements you listed. That said a .308 AR would do the same but do it more accurately... If he decides on a 5.56 I would suggest a <span style="text-decoration: underline">insert reputable maker's name here</span> AR. </div></div>

yes he can bassically do anything anywhere else in the country can do. 30rnd mags, pistol grip, flash suppressor etc.. and honestly retiring isnt something i think anyone of our age will see with the way this worlds going but if he does see it it dosent change anything he takes those gun rights to the grave.

 

[kentactic]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

yep guys im on the same page as you.. i think the obvious choice is an M1A of some varient. i think im going to advise that rifle and that rifle alone.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

How about a DPMS SASS? DPMS says 11.5 lbs empty but for the price of a R25, you can get a SASS that's got just about all the bells and whistles. They can be had for under $2000. I've seen them go as low as around $1700 new.

http://www.nelsontactical.com/products/dpms-762-lrtsass-p-380.html?zenid=uenh3c40k8963o5cf06m7raut6

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=215921540

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

i read a comparison between the FA Titan, R25, and an AR10.

the one thing that stood out to me was that the R25 had a very hard time digesting M118LR (a problem they attributed to a weak firing pin spring and/or the hard primers).

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

If you were even considering getting a keltec su16ca, please don't. That is a rifle you buy to shoot at beer cans or throw in the back of your truck because you don't really care what happens to it. It is not a weapon you bet your life on.
Get a proven street fighting gun, The tried and true M4. Run 77grain or 75TAP and you'll drop dudes. You can't beat it it's light, accurate, is capable of lightning quick follow up shots and is easy and comfortable to shoot from alternate positions. You can carry more ammo and the gun is in my opinion more forgiving than a shorty 7.62, and easier to manuever than a full size autoloading 7.62.

Here is a ca approved reasonably priced M4 atlantic arms has this el Ton, AR 15 Rifle M4 -A3 , semi auto, this rifle is packed with all the features , collapsing stock, 16 inch chrome moly barrel with threaded flash hider, flat top upper for mounting scopes with a removable A2 carry handle . Rifles ship with one 10 round mag & rifle hard case and backed up by a Lifetime Warranty . These rifles are made legal for California by installing a bullet button and 1 -10 round mag does not come with hi capacity mag in picture. $799
Horus talon 1-4 power scope $650
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=42 one piece scope mount $195
$1650 and you are in business. This setup is more than adequate for 5 to 300 meters. I just don't really think anyone would take you seriously with a KelTec su16ca. The M4 is America's AK.

 

[Peepaw]

Re: What rifle for a friend?

Not sure how long your friend needs to make up his mind, but I can tell you that even though I recommended the above, I myself actually bought a Del-Ton.
So, why didn't I recommend it? For one, I haven't received it yet, so have no way of telling you how it shoots, and number 2, just seems to be the "rookie" on the block, and until you can get LOTS of people speaking up for it, hard for me to recommend a rifle to a LEA like that.
Now, that being said, the people that HAVE spoke up for the Del-Ton, have all had good things tosay about it, and that is why I bought (and of course, $$$$ played a role to obviously)

I actually paid $605 for mine, unassembled...its a flattop M4 16" A2 flash. Rifle SHOULD be here in next week to 2 weeks, and once I get to range will post up results with it.


But, I think if yo ufollow advice from above and all of those that have spoke, you can draw a pretty good conclusion on what everyone is saying.,.. 223 or 308, 16-18", name brand rifle...that about covers it.