I've got a 223 Wylde chambered virgin barrel blank in the safe. I'll have to dig it out and measure later this evening.
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What round for training cartridge?
- Thread starter TexasTightwad
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I've got a 223 Wylde chambered virgin barrel blank in the safe. I'll have to dig it out and measure later this evening.
Don’t go out of your way for it. Im sure some others have the measurements already written down.
@bohem would you share the reamer print or freebore you use in your wylde or at least confirm or deny the .062? I could be operating on a false assumption altogether that it’s the same as all the others in that area.
I ended up adding to my NSS order a 223 barrel that matched the 6.5, and it is a 223 Remington Match chamber with a 1:7 twist. I also added the .380 bolt head and two magazines to my Nucleus order, which should ship soon (mine is #2900, and they invoiced to #2898 today). I don't know the magazine length on those, but that's what I'll be using (AICS pattern).
I really like the Wylde chamber as well. Also I would scrap the cci 400 primers for some 450’s or Remington 7.5
A few things:
Your 223 might reach out, or it might not. I wasn't able to get 75 grain pills past about 2700 fps accurately in my Tikka Varmint 223, and they went unstable at about 650 yards, so I couldn't even get it to 700, much less 1,000. It can certainly be done, but there's no guarantee and you may end up single loading for super long rounds.
Also, I'll say that it makes a difference to practice with the round you shoot. You'll learn where your CB shot goes, what direction the barrel goes when it starts walking (and after how many rounds), exactly how much wind you need to hold for, how much velocity changes during certain conditions, etc. Having that info on the round you're shooting during comp is invaluable. I personally wouldn't go the trainer route unless you're just shooting a stupid amount of rounds.
Your 223 might reach out, or it might not. I wasn't able to get 75 grain pills past about 2700 fps accurately in my Tikka Varmint 223, and they went unstable at about 650 yards, so I couldn't even get it to 700, much less 1,000. It can certainly be done, but there's no guarantee and you may end up single loading for super long rounds.
Also, I'll say that it makes a difference to practice with the round you shoot. You'll learn where your CB shot goes, what direction the barrel goes when it starts walking (and after how many rounds), exactly how much wind you need to hold for, how much velocity changes during certain conditions, etc. Having that info on the round you're shooting during comp is invaluable. I personally wouldn't go the trainer route unless you're just shooting a stupid amount of rounds.
Will do, this one is a Krieger cut rifled blank.
Last barrel was a button rifled Shilen blank, 23.2 of XBR in LC brass with a 75bthp gave me 2800 fps. It hammered, everything inside of 800 yards 1 MOA steel plates no problem. I shot it out at 1k too and it was fine, not much energy out there though.
I could push it faster...alot faster - just lost accuracy. Never could find a node any faster.
Did not try 8208. I was more interested in making a point though. And if you're off buying different powders to try to find a fast load on your training rifle, then you're quickly eating away at the cost 'savings'.
Yeah, there's no chance I'm leaving 200 fps on the table with a .223 over cost savings on powder especially.
If your 75's are going unstable past 650, you need more twist.
Last thousand rounds or so I've been running mine at 2650 fps lol. Was just banging steel at 200 yards for positional practice so I figured it would be easier on the steel (and less likely to spark, fire danger, etc). I've run it out to 600 yards and it still does fine.
It was a 1:8 twist Tikka Varmint. Not a barrel problem. It was a speed problem. My barrel didn't have a good fast node. It would shoot a hair over 1" at 2850 fps, but shot under 1/2" at the slower node, so I couldn't donate that much accuracy.
My only point was that you're not guaranteed to find a fast node on a 223 that will take you past about 600/700 yards. More than likely? Sure. But buying a practice gun that can only provide adequate practice if you really push the limits of the cartridge does have some inherent risk. That's all I'm saying.
That and the fact that practicing with your comp rifle with your comp caliber is just better overall practice than a completely different caliber. But if you can push a 223 with accuracy, it's not a bad choice. It's just not one I would personally advise if your comps are going to be at 1000 yards with a 6 or 6.5.
I agree it should have done better - that's my entire point. Mine went unstable before 700. Shot a 3" group at 600, and couldn't hit the 2 MOA (14" plate) at 700. So it went unstable during transonic. I'm at 400' ASL.
So I remeasured it yesterday while watching football. Sized brass all checked before to make sure it chambers freely.
My measurement for a free drop is now .008" longer than it was on the brand new barrel, 1.892 ogive (2.432 oal) before is now coming out at 1.900 (2.440) so my measurement in post 53 would have actually been for .018 off, not .010 like I claimed off the original measurement. Must just be the sharp lands rounding off during this first 250 rounds.
Based on my seating depth test Saturday I will be shooting them at 1.873"ogive (2.413 oal) =.027" jump.
My "hard" jam is ~2.467", shorter than that it is possible to force the bolt closed, however, you can still clearly see the bullet is contacting/engraving all the way around until you get to my measurement of 2.440. So it doesnt appear to be due to concentricity.
Whats interesting though is that its not the lands imprints that I am accustomed to seeing (like my 53 nosler varm showed in this barrel when tested in the same exact manner); its a solid contact all the way around like its hitting on the neck-throat step-up (doubtful) or on the leade angle before the lands start to ramp up away from the grooves.
So maybe a snug freebore is the culprit. Maybe its just the leade angle and the secant bullet just being too close of a match and touching almost tangentially for that little .027" section. I wish I would have thought to mic each bullet while I was at it to compare diameters, Ill try to remember to tonight.
In any case there should be plenty of space to load in mags even if the freebore was .030" longer.
Edit: Nosler 53 is .2244” and the hornady eld is .2247”, I’m curious if .0003” can really be the big difference in play.
Edit edit: I just measured some 55gr speer sp and they are .2441” so it looks like maybe it could be, I figured the 53 and 75 were and both ends of the spectrum but now it looks like they were the middle and the high end of the spectrum. So perhaps they are just that hair too wide for a clean imprint. I’m not gonna worry about it though. They shoot fair enough.
My measurement for a free drop is now .008" longer than it was on the brand new barrel, 1.892 ogive (2.432 oal) before is now coming out at 1.900 (2.440) so my measurement in post 53 would have actually been for .018 off, not .010 like I claimed off the original measurement. Must just be the sharp lands rounding off during this first 250 rounds.
Based on my seating depth test Saturday I will be shooting them at 1.873"ogive (2.413 oal) =.027" jump.
My "hard" jam is ~2.467", shorter than that it is possible to force the bolt closed, however, you can still clearly see the bullet is contacting/engraving all the way around until you get to my measurement of 2.440. So it doesnt appear to be due to concentricity.
Whats interesting though is that its not the lands imprints that I am accustomed to seeing (like my 53 nosler varm showed in this barrel when tested in the same exact manner); its a solid contact all the way around like its hitting on the neck-throat step-up (doubtful) or on the leade angle before the lands start to ramp up away from the grooves.
So maybe a snug freebore is the culprit. Maybe its just the leade angle and the secant bullet just being too close of a match and touching almost tangentially for that little .027" section. I wish I would have thought to mic each bullet while I was at it to compare diameters, Ill try to remember to tonight.
In any case there should be plenty of space to load in mags even if the freebore was .030" longer.
Edit: Nosler 53 is .2244” and the hornady eld is .2247”, I’m curious if .0003” can really be the big difference in play.
Edit edit: I just measured some 55gr speer sp and they are .2441” so it looks like maybe it could be, I figured the 53 and 75 were and both ends of the spectrum but now it looks like they were the middle and the high end of the spectrum. So perhaps they are just that hair too wide for a clean imprint. I’m not gonna worry about it though. They shoot fair enough.
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I’m not sure if it would qualify as a “trainer,” but I use my .223 setup to save a couple extra barrels a year with my 6creed. I think it also helps with my wind calls, so I guess there’s the trainer part.
Any matches that are around 800 max or only one stage over 800, I shoot .223.
A 100 round match eats up about 7% ish barrel life of a 6 creed (1500 assumed life), and .223 eats 2% barrel life (with assumed 5000.
Mileage may vary, but even if the ammo costs were the same, it’s still worth it to me to shoot 223 as much as possible.
I have them set up almost exactly in weight.
Any matches that are around 800 max or only one stage over 800, I shoot .223.
A 100 round match eats up about 7% ish barrel life of a 6 creed (1500 assumed life), and .223 eats 2% barrel life (with assumed 5000.
Mileage may vary, but even if the ammo costs were the same, it’s still worth it to me to shoot 223 as much as possible.
I have them set up almost exactly in weight.
Do you change scopes and triggers when you switch? Also looks like you are running Impacts? I just ordered mine and cant wait to shoot it!
I do for now until I can budget in another kahles and trigger. But it’s so easy to change them, it’s not a big deal.
They are impact actions. I love them. Only other action I’d use now is an AI.
Yeah scopes are expensive as are actions! Do you reload for your 223 or just by factory? Have you ever just swapped barrels out?
I’m running factory at the moment, building a loading bench. Just waiting for Black Friday for a few more items.
I switched out barrels on other actions. This time I just got tired of doing that and bought 2 impacts. I only shoot two calibers and almost never in the same day.
What ammo are you running in both? Yeah I wouldn't be switching barrels the same day either.
I totally agree that the .223 is the top choice for practice/training. I also believe that if I wanted to train beyond 600yd, and shoot more bullet than the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match, I'd be shooting the .260. I figure use the right tool for each job.
Greg
Greg
The same caliber and cartridge you shoot in competition. Use the money you would spend on a barrel blank, gunsmithing, dies, ammo / components for the trainer caliber on ammo for the match gun.
Two things wrong here.
1: you’d just burn right through your match barrel
2: if you primarily practice where either a) there isn’t a lot of wind or b) the wind is fairly constant, you won’t get much training value shooting something like a 6 where you’re holding edge of the plate all day. A cartridge more affected by the wind will even that up a bit.
Practicing say with a 6 in constant or low wind, then traveling to a match where the wind does different things or gusts pretty bad will make for a bad day.
If you’re mainly needed practice on your position setup and such and not as much on wind at a distance, might as well just shoot a .22 at 50-100 yds.
You want many of your training days to be challenging and your match days to be easy.
This is a interesting subject!
I used to just train with my good ole 6x47L, 5 barrels worth. Then finances took a plunge so I found myself grabbing the other rifles out of the safe to preserve barrel life in the 6x47, well that and not shooting long range as much as I used to with that intent in mind.
The thing is, is that I really do need to practice more, shoot long range more and to stay proficient because I'm not as dialed in as I used to be in this aspect, and do I enjoy shooting long range a lot.
It's a long story, but cutting it short, I got into a M700 benchrifle by trading + a little $, won a barrel cert, and ended up with a 223AI. Basically a 88 grainer at 2813 fps does almost the same thing as my 6x47 does in the wind, .1 mil difference at 500Y and .2 mil at 1000Y. Being that it's very hard to guess within .1 mil at 500Y in the wind, and not easy to guess within .2 mil at 1000Y, I came to the conclusion that for me going this route works great! I should get triple the barrel life, less recoil, less money spent per reload, etc.
I'm also trying a prefit in 6mmBR which was less than half the cost of buying a blank and getting chambered/fit/etc by a gunsmith to my Mausingfield.
It's all a fun experiment right now and as time a $ allow I want to do a 25 creed with Blackjack 131's for less wind drift than 6x47 has.
I used to just train with my good ole 6x47L, 5 barrels worth. Then finances took a plunge so I found myself grabbing the other rifles out of the safe to preserve barrel life in the 6x47, well that and not shooting long range as much as I used to with that intent in mind.
The thing is, is that I really do need to practice more, shoot long range more and to stay proficient because I'm not as dialed in as I used to be in this aspect, and do I enjoy shooting long range a lot.
It's a long story, but cutting it short, I got into a M700 benchrifle by trading + a little $, won a barrel cert, and ended up with a 223AI. Basically a 88 grainer at 2813 fps does almost the same thing as my 6x47 does in the wind, .1 mil difference at 500Y and .2 mil at 1000Y. Being that it's very hard to guess within .1 mil at 500Y in the wind, and not easy to guess within .2 mil at 1000Y, I came to the conclusion that for me going this route works great! I should get triple the barrel life, less recoil, less money spent per reload, etc.
I'm also trying a prefit in 6mmBR which was less than half the cost of buying a blank and getting chambered/fit/etc by a gunsmith to my Mausingfield.
It's all a fun experiment right now and as time a $ allow I want to do a 25 creed with Blackjack 131's for less wind drift than 6x47 has.
I like training with something that has more recoil than my match gun. I use a 6xc to train and shoot a dasher in matches.
I'd rather practice with the same caliber that I shoot in matches. I never said the same gun. I have 2 identical setups. But what do I know. I only finished the year 16th in the PRS last season and been on the winning PRS Team for 2016 and 2017.
For purely positional practice with little to no wind at close range there may be some value. However, with calibers that are cheaper and produce less recoil like say a .223, you can develop some bad habits with recoil management if you're not careful. I'd rather train the way I'm going to shoot the match. Not learn different recoil management and different wind characteristics with varying calibers. There are more successful shooters than myself that train with different calibers, its merely my opinion and worth what you paid for it. YMMV.
For purely positional practice with little to no wind at close range there may be some value. However, with calibers that are cheaper and produce less recoil like say a .223, you can develop some bad habits with recoil management if you're not careful. I'd rather train the way I'm going to shoot the match. Not learn different recoil management and different wind characteristics with varying calibers. There are more successful shooters than myself that train with different calibers, its merely my opinion and worth what you paid for it. YMMV.
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PRS world is still one of the disciplines across sports and games where people’s defense in the end is what they have won or placed.
This isn’t directed at a single person, just a common occurrence. Just because you win or place high doesn’t necessarily mean you are necessarily practicing correctly or have proper mechanics/fundamentals.
Jamie Gold won the WSOP.......would you take poker lessons from him?
Frank isn’t out there knocking down wins on PRS, but his instruction in fundamentals are some of the best.
Not taking away from any accomplishments of any posters here, but quit pointing to them as proof of anything other than what they are, winning with what you do.
Keep the conversations on why you believe what you do is valid, not just being results oriented.
Here is a video of a friend of mine who was one of the best pool players a couple decades ago. Would you consider his fundamentals proper?
This isn’t directed at a single person, just a common occurrence. Just because you win or place high doesn’t necessarily mean you are necessarily practicing correctly or have proper mechanics/fundamentals.
Jamie Gold won the WSOP.......would you take poker lessons from him?
Frank isn’t out there knocking down wins on PRS, but his instruction in fundamentals are some of the best.
Not taking away from any accomplishments of any posters here, but quit pointing to them as proof of anything other than what they are, winning with what you do.
Keep the conversations on why you believe what you do is valid, not just being results oriented.
Here is a video of a friend of mine who was one of the best pool players a couple decades ago. Would you consider his fundamentals proper?
So instead we should listen to people who give advice that is usually regurgitated information from unknown sources with no original information, instead of personal practices and techniques that they have developed themselves (ie original ideas) over thousands of rounds? Of which those techniques have proven themselves to be successful amongst the toughest competitors in the country? By that theory we need to take down the "What The Pro's Use" post because it has no merit. Because the guys that continually finish at or near the top are possibly doing it wrong.
Twice now you have responded to post that differed from your opinion. You are entitled to yours like everyone else is entitled to theirs. In the future maybe just disagree and move on instead of hitting the reply button with a rebuttal. I can say definitively that many of the most knowledge and talented people in the precision rifle world either no longer frequent this forum or if / when they do, do not post because they are tired of being told why they are wrong by typer snipers and internet commandos.
OP, Sorry to have further derailed this post. I will not respond to surely the insuing rebuttal.
Twice now you have responded to post that differed from your opinion. You are entitled to yours like everyone else is entitled to theirs. In the future maybe just disagree and move on instead of hitting the reply button with a rebuttal. I can say definitively that many of the most knowledge and talented people in the precision rifle world either no longer frequent this forum or if / when they do, do not post because they are tired of being told why they are wrong by typer snipers and internet commandos.
OP, Sorry to have further derailed this post. I will not respond to surely the insuing rebuttal.
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