What the fuck, LMT?

[redneckbmxer24]

I knew their quality control had slipped but damn. Not only does the finish quality look like shit, but it looks like there might be actual shit on the windage adjustment. You’d think they could at least pick a decent one for a stock photo. Looks like they kicked it through the shop and into the bathroom Ace Ventura style and then the website dude scooped it up and took a pic after wiping his ass with his hand.

Heads up, their sights are on sale today

 

[Lucky Se7en]

They’re trying to manage expectations haha

 

[db2000]

It’s called patina. They figured all the LARP’rs need it

 

[Charmingmander]

Wtf

 

[jetjock07]

You usually have to pay extra for the Battle-worn look.

 

[db2000]

You usually have to pay extra for the Battle-worn look.

That’s the first thing I thought of.
Of all the gayest shit you could do to an AR, it’s probably paint it to look like it’s been through battle. Pitiful.

 

[jetjock07]

That’s the first thing I thought of.
Of all the gayest shit you could do to an AR, it’s probably paint it to look like it’s been through battle. Pitiful.

Agreed

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If that's battle worn, its from an explosive battle in a porta john where it caught spray.

 

[dms416]

I like me some LMT...and was pushing people into them when everyone thought the sun rose/set with Colt...

But who TF annointed them as a "uber" tier mfg in the first place?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm not sure what to call them anymore but considering that they do some proprietary stuff and do it extremely well and the quality I've experienced over dozens of products, I considered them tier 1 before they started pumping out junk. These days though you're rolling the dice with them. Not sure what's going on with them though if they can't even get a decent stock photo for their website. Maybe they're hiring from the same DGAF pool of employees as Burris and others. Whatever it is, they have gone down hill a lot it would seem and everything appears to have happened right after their move and growth.

Ohh well, I still like the LMT stuff I still have but I don't think I'd buy anymore. At this point all I have is some old roll mark lowers and mags, some of which I've had for quite a while. I even got rid of all of the MARS shit because of the compatibility with aftermarket uppers, and got rid of all of my MRP and MWS because of the weight and how overgassed they are.

 

[Makinchips208]

Nightforce style testing. It checked out and is good to go.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I got a free set of backup sights with a MRP-L upper recently. I thought both the sights and the upper were really nice. I got a MARS-L lower and put the parts kit in it this weekend. Again, it seemed perfect to me. The fitment between upper and lower is probably the best out of all my ARs.

I did have a complete DMR lower I purchased a couple months ago and the stock was kind of ratty. LMT responded in about a week and I had a replacement in about two weeks. The MARS-H 15.3 upper was fine and functions perfectly. The bolt carriers and bolts work well. I know some have had issues recently but some would have you believe nothing from LMT works anymore. Not to discount their experience but my samples reflect an excellent product. I have purchased a fair amount of LMT items the last 15 years and only had one problem that was dealt with quickly.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

I've seen some things with newer LMT. Inexcusable things.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I got a free set of backup sights with a MRP-L upper recently. I thought both the sights and the upper were really nice. I got a MARS-L lower and put the parts kit in it this weekend. Again, it seemed perfect to me. The fitment between upper and lower is probably the best out of all my ARs.

I did have a complete DMR lower I purchased a couple months ago and the stock was kind of ratty. LMT responded in about a week and I had a replacement in about two weeks. The MARS-H 15.3 upper was fine and functions perfectly. The bolt carriers and bolts work well. I know some have had issues recently but some would have you believe nothing from LMT works anymore. Not to discount their experience but my samples reflect an excellent product. I have purchased a fair amount of LMT items the last 15 years and only had one problem that was dealt with quickly.

I don’t doubt that LMT is still putting out some quality stuff, but if you can’t see that things have changed in the last few years then I don’t know what to tell you.

They’re obviously not getting the best and the brightest and the picture I posted is a clear example of that. Not only is the finish quality of that sight absolute dog shit that someone should have scrapped during assembly, but it actually made it through that process and someone intentionally chose that item to photograph and then someone intentionally chose that photograph to use on the website as a stock photo to display the product. That’s a lot of retard happening.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

For me it was the hand tight barrel extension. Unscrewed in my hand, barrel had never been fired.

I also liked the upper that wouldn’t actually take an mlok accessory. Oh, and the machining and finish in my 15.3 upper was inexcusable.

I’m sure they outsourced their QC to AI.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

Yeah - I found the pic. Dear LMT, thanks for the fucking life safety level issue. I appreciate it.

And...could you have someone who knows what they are doing look at the output of your machinist apprentice program? Maybe not drop those parts right in a box? Especially the program for blind kids? Bless their hearts, vision is an important quality in a machinist.

 

[thehun]

One time I got a new LMT and the barrel in it looked like it was shot 30K rounds without firing ... literally ... no amount of cleaning got the stuff out but somehow it managed to pass their awesome QC ... they took a look at it and said yeah ... somehow you got a shot out barrel in your new gun ... they did replace it with a new unit but I haven't owned a LMT since ...

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

A barrel extension that is loose is not cool.

In my experience LMT stuff has just gotten more polished and refined through the years. My very early version MRP has a pretty ugly 16 inch 5.56 chrome lined barrel. I love the thing though because it shoots crazy good for a chrome lined barrel.

But since we are talking about recent problems these are my most recent examples of items received in the last month:

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

Looks good to me but maybe my eye is less critical. I certainly don't see as well up close these days!

 

[Merle]

Why can't they make this match up? I had one of these rifles and mine looked the same.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

Why can't they make this match up? I had one of these rifles and mine looked the same. View attachment 8301082

It would require they gave a fuck what their rifles looked like.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

It would require they gave a fuck what their rifles looked like.

I would say perfect cosmetic details are not a priority for LMT. If you want a show quality piece, look elsewhere.

In my experience LMTs excel at a few things: reliability, one of the best platforms for mounting NV lasers and clip-on NV (no worry about the hand guard flexing when on a bipod/tripod and causing a shift in the point of impact), better than average accuracy (especially in the AR-15 platform), the ability to easily change the barrel/caliber, a unique enhanced bolt carrier/bolt that works well shooting suppressed, and most items can be bought pretty easily from the factory or online vendors.

The negatives of LMT: IMO overgassed (can be fixed with BRT 50:50 gas tube), slightly heavier barrel profile (perhaps this also contributes to better than average accuracy, even in their chrome lined barrels, they do offer lighter weight profiles for the large frame platform, D. Wilson also offers Proof carbon barrel conversions), limited off the shelf barrel offerings given the proprietary barrel extension, cosmetic marks/defects (in my experience have not caused any problems with function), and they do sell at a more premium price point.

 

[Merle]

I would say perfect cosmetic details are not a priority for LMT. If you want a show quality piece, look elsewhere.

Since they mill their own parts how hard would it be to make them at least match up aesthetically though? Their large frame guns look like they match up well together. I'd expect that for the premium they demand over a standard AR-15.

 

[thehun]

I would say perfect cosmetic details are not a priority for LMT. If you want a show quality piece, look elsewhere.

In my experience LMTs excel at a few things: reliability, one of the best platforms for mounting NV lasers and clip-on NV (no worry about the hand guard flexing when on a bipod/tripod and causing a shift in the point of impact), better than average accuracy (especially in the AR-15 platform), the ability to easily change the barrel/caliber, a unique enhanced bolt carrier/bolt that works well shooting suppressed, and most items can be bought pretty easily from the factory or online vendors.

The negatives of LMT: IMO overgassed (can be fixed with BRT 50:50 gas tube), slightly heavier barrel profile (perhaps this also contributes to better than average accuracy, even in their chrome lined barrels, they do offer lighter weight profiles for the large frame platform, D. Wilson also offers Proof carbon barrel conversions), limited off the shelf barrel offerings given the proprietary barrel extension, cosmetic marks/defects (in my experience have not caused any problems with function), and they do sell at a more premium price point.

At the price they are charging now ... they could fix that alignment ... just saying ...

I agree with your points though ... they have the BEST upper receiver in the business ... period ... best QD barrel system too ... nothing comes even remotely close to their reliability ...

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I would say perfect cosmetic details are not a priority for LMT. If you want a show quality piece, look elsewhere.

In my experience LMTs excel at a few things: reliability, one of the best platforms for mounting NV lasers and clip-on NV (no worry about the hand guard flexing when on a bipod/tripod and causing a shift in the point of impact), better than average accuracy (especially in the AR-15 platform), the ability to easily change the barrel/caliber, a unique enhanced bolt carrier/bolt that works well shooting suppressed, and most items can be bought pretty easily from the factory or online vendors.

The negatives of LMT: IMO overgassed (can be fixed with BRT 50:50 gas tube), slightly heavier barrel profile (perhaps this also contributes to better than average accuracy, even in their chrome lined barrels, they do offer lighter weight profiles for the large frame platform, D. Wilson also offers Proof carbon barrel conversions), limited off the shelf barrel offerings given the proprietary barrel extension, cosmetic marks/defects (in my experience have not caused any problems with function), and they do sell at a more premium price point.

The handguard still can and does flex a bit depending on pressure. I’ve verified this on mlk small and large frame guns with the reticle turned on in my clip on. I haven’t tested quad rails. They’re better than anything else though for sure and return to “zero” after pressure is removed. I think the only non monolithic that comes close is the seekins irmt/sp10 and aero enhanced receivers.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

The handguard still can and does flex a bit depending on pressure. I’ve verified this on mlk small and large frame guns with the reticle turned on in my clip on. I haven’t tested quad rails. They’re better than anything else though for sure and return to “zero” after pressure is removed. I think the only non monolithic that comes close is the seekins irmt/sp10 and aero enhanced receivers.

The LWRC monoblock and the Larue Stealth 2.0’s were also very good.

An LM8 556 with a stainless lmt barrel was my primary gun for a very long time. It would shoot any ammo you fed it into a 1” or less group - including PMC green tip. And it has never jammed.

The full auto piston gun was amazing, too. 50,000 rounds before any failure occurred in parts.

BUT - Having several generations of LMTs on hand it’s getting worse. Especially the upper machining. Every current build sample I have seen has some wonky thing going on - and because I have earlier guns too, I can see the design intent for the machine operations and know the gun was meant to be smoothly machined and well built.

This is just sloppy setups and tool overuse - the symptoms of a company that has embraced cash cow operations.

 

[Char'ed Cuterie]

My personal experience with two back-to-back LMT's in 6.8SPC - the gas blocks on both were hard aground on the inside of the rail. On one, I could tell with the naked eye that the rail was machined unevenly, the second was a little better but still couldn't see light between rail and gas block. Made a hilarious ringing bell sound when the bolt dropped, I imagine the whip was just enough to separate the two then *ding!* back together. Fun times, returned as unfired, sorry to both of the folks who I'm sure ended up with them uncorrected.

They're neat on paper. I hope somebody can do something interesting with those concepts once the patent runs out.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Todays deals, 308 SS barrels. It’s pretty bad when I can QC shit from their stock photos better than they can in the shop. Just look at this crap.

They should change their slogan to “Because quality control is not an option”

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Todays deals, 308 SS barrels. It’s pretty bad when I can QC shit from their stock photos better than they can in the shop. Just look at this crap.

They should change their slogan to “Because quality control is not an option”

They don't ship you what's in the stock photo, Beaufort.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

They don't ship you what's in the stock photo, Beaufort.

Actually they most likely do send those out to customers and they come off the same machines genius. I'm not surprised at all that you don't understand this.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Actually they most likely do send those out to customers and they come off the same machines genius. I'm not surprised at all that you don't understand this.

<Sigh> I'm sure you're good at something, I just can't figure out what it is.

 

[secondofangle2]

A barrel extension that is loose is not cool.

In my experience LMT stuff has just gotten more polished and refined through the years. My very early version MRP has a pretty ugly 16 inch 5.56 chrome lined barrel. I love the thing though because it shoots crazy good for a chrome lined barrel.

But since we are talking about recent problems these are my most recent examples of items received in the last month:

View attachment 8300891

View attachment 8300892

View attachment 8300900

What am I seeing here?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I knew their quality control had slipped but damn. Not only does the finish quality look like shit, but it looks like there might be actual shit on the windage adjustment. You’d think they could at least pick a decent one for a stock photo. Looks like they kicked it through the shop and into the bathroom Ace Ventura style and then the website dude scooped it up and took a pic after wiping his ass with his hand.

Heads up, their sights are on sale today

You made a thread to bitch about this?

Must be a slow day in the trailer park.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

What am I seeing here?

A well machined upper and lower that shoots well and provides this owner a high degree of satisfaction.

I wanted to provide some evidence that LMT still ships out some quality uppers, lowers, and sights. Especially for the Black Friday special of $599 that I paid for the upper and backup front/rear sights that are pictured above. A rib that doesn't line up exactly between upper and lower is not high on my list of priorities in a firearm. Apparently, some do not feel the same way.

I have several LMTs and am shocked sometimes how accurate and reliable they are at the range and in the field.

 

[secondofangle2]

Phew. I scrutinized those pics and could not find anything wrong and figured I didn’t have a discriminating enough eye

 

[thehun]

They don't ship you what's in the stock photo, Beaufort.

They sent me a shoot out barrel my new ordered rifle once so yeah. It’s possible.

I’ll say this. After they won the NZ contract is when I noticed QC slipping.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Same here. That SS MRP 16” 556 of mine has outshot every other 556 I’ve ever used. Thing is one damn reliable laser.

An LM8 556 with a stainless lmt barrel was my primary gun for a very long time. It would shoot any ammo you fed it into a 1” or less group - including PMC green tip. And it has never jammed.

 

[msgriff]

A lot of firearm manufacturers and related companies have relocated in the last decade. Whether it's 20 or 2000 miles, it seems to me like QC issues happen afterwards at a higher rate.

 

[GUNNER10]

I've always been a big fan of LMT stuff. I don't think people's criticism of LMT's QC is invalid. I would only say that production/QC issues are not a uniquely LMT/firearm industry-based problem but are fairly common across all industries. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a 1200-dollar iPhone, or a $60k Ford Bronco, or a $4K Bard ECU's or a 10K Eaton Transformer.

Shit happens.

Are there alternatives to LMT that offer a comparable product. Of course. While I like there stuff, its by no means the end all be all of service rifles.

KAC for example offers an awesome rifle and have a notably better QC process. The only issue is that KAC's production is abysmal, and they carry a 20 percent premium.

Daniel Defense has better production, and offers a nice rifle, at a 20 percent discount, over LMT, with better QC, but lacks stuff like EBCG's and QC barrels.

Everything is about tradeoffs.

LMT makes a good stuff, supports multiple allied defense contracts while keeping the civilian commercial market far better supplied with spare parts than its main competitor KAC. LMT could go down the KAC road and cut production by 90% but instead of complaining about machine marks, or somebody's booger on a stock photo, we would be crying about people buying out vendors just to flip stuff on gunbroker.

I have Rifles from KAC and LMT and I would 1000 out of 1000 times, rather deal with LMT's QC issues than KAC's production issues.

This is your typical experience of a KAC rifle owner.

Me: Hello KAC, I have a SR25 ACC and would like to order a 14.5" 6.5 Creedmoor kit
KAC: Contact one of our vendors.
Me: I have, nobody has anything in stock, I was wondering if i could just put in an order.
KAC: Yeah, not sure when the next production run is going to be, it would be better to contact our vendors.
Me: Aren't you guys the manufacture, isn't this something that you should know?
KAC: Yes, of Course.
Me: So yeah, Can I just put in an order because I've yet to actually see a vendor list them and the only ones that i see are being listed on gun broker for like 15k. I work overseas and i really don't have the time to monitor all of your vendors and social media.
KAC. Yeah, Im not sure.
Me, What does that even mean, I can place an order for a coffee, just swap out the coffee cups PN for the 6.5 kits PN, heres ny CC number.
KAC: ....
ME:Hello?

 

[charnicus]

I’ll say they might be bad with sending out bad things (had to send back a bad mlock upper a couple weeks ago) but they are taking care of it rather professionally. Granted I’m at the mercy of a behind schedule product line. Zero cost to me.

 

[GUNNER10]

The LWRC monoblock and the Larue Stealth 2.0’s were also very good.

An LM8 556 with a stainless lmt barrel was my primary gun for a very long time. It would shoot any ammo you fed it into a 1” or less group - including PMC green tip. And it has never jammed.

The full auto piston gun was amazing, too. 50,000 rounds before any failure occurred in parts.

BUT - Having several generations of LMTs on hand it’s getting worse. Especially the upper machining. Every current build sample I have seen has some wonky thing going on - and because I have earlier guns too, I can see the design intent for the machine operations and know the gun was meant to be smoothly machined and well built.

This is just sloppy setups and tool overuse - the symptoms of a company that has embraced cash cow operations.

I would agree on the sloppy setup's and tool overuse, but I am not sure if I would go as so far to so that they have gone down the road of Rob Cohen and Kimber/Sig. I think this may be more indicative of tool supply issues than somebody in management consciously staying, they need to use cutting bits X percent longer. I could be wrong, who knows?

I'm sure there are people out there that expect LMT's to look like something made from Staccatto because of the price premium that LMT's carry. I am not sure how many of those same people would be willing to trade LMT's reliability and durability for that of something made by Staccatto where the gun really can't be expected to run unless you are shooting Federal 124's out of $120 MBX mags when barometric pressure is between 30.12 and 30.42.

LMT really should put more energy into QC, but generally speaking their stuff tends to be fairly bombproof and they when issues arise, they tend to take care of their customers.

 

[db2000]

All these great anecdotes aside, their shit is still very pricey and looks sloppy AF for a company who’s family name literally has Machine and Tool on it. I would think it would be a point of family pride.

 

[db2000]

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

I would agree on the sloppy setup's and tool overuse, but I am not sure if I would go as so far to so that they have gone down the road of Rob Cohen and Kimber/Sig. I think this may be more indicative of tool supply issues than somebody in management consciously staying, they need to use cutting bits X percent longer. I could be wrong, who knows?

I'm sure there are people out there that expect LMT's to look like something made from Staccatto because of the price premium that LMT's carry. I am not sure how many of those same people would be willing to trade LMT's reliability and durability for that of something made by Staccatto where the gun really can't be expected to run unless you are shooting Federal 124's out of $120 MBX mags when barometric pressure is between 30.12 and 30.42.

LMT really should put more energy into QC, but generally speaking their stuff tends to be fairly bombproof and they when issues arise, they tend to take care of their customers.

There is a lot of reasonable stuff in your post that I agree with.

That said...If it looks like shit I want it to have been cheap. And if it doesn't work, I want it to have been QC'd beforehand. So it did work.

When a company has an issue because the supplier handed them aluminum that was 10% less strong than spec, and it would take a machine that costs millions of dollars to find that (Scalarworks, I'm looking at you)...I'm gonna live with something happening.

If you put the barrel in the upper and it comes into contact with the rail because that shit is cut 10 degrees off center and even Stevie Wonder would have seen that shit..you are just fucking me for an extra dollar.

I don't think there is any possibility that LMT still DOES QC. I had a barrel extension unscrew itself by hand. This is the life safety part of the gun experiencing an easily tested failure. A dude got a used barrel in a brand-new gun...gas blocks off-center....uppers that won't take a barrel cartridge.

The QC guy costs you $300 a day and throws out $5000 in shitty parts a week. The customer costs you nothing and they send back $2000 in shitty parts. The math is easy if you stop caring whatsoever what happens to your customers. And you now have a much more attractive place to throw out your contract reject stuff - the civilian customer's mailbox.

 

[Makinchips208]

There is a lot of reasonable stuff in your post that I agree with.

That said...If it looks like shit I want it to have been cheap. And if it doesn't work, I want it to have been QC'd beforehand. So it did work.

When a company has an issue because the supplier handed them aluminum that was 10% less strong than spec, and it would take a machine that costs millions of dollars to find that (Scalarworks, I'm looking at you)...I'm gonna live with something happening.

If you put the barrel in the upper and it comes into contact with the rail because that shit is cut 10 degrees off center and even Stevie Wonder would have seen that shit..you are just fucking me for an extra dollar.

I don't think there is any possibility that LMT still DOES QC. I had a barrel extension unscrew itself by hand. This is the life safety part of the gun experiencing an easily tested failure. A dude got a used barrel in a brand-new gun...gas blocks off-center....uppers that won't take a barrel cartridge.

The QC guy costs you $300 a day and throws out $5000 in shitty parts a week. The customer costs you nothing and they send back $2000 in shitty parts. The math is easy if you stop caring whatsoever what happens to your customers. And you now have a much more attractive place to throw out your contract reject stuff - the civilian customer's mailbox.

May be the difference between a QA and. QC department?
And apparently at best they are only inspecting 1 part every few hours, or maybe 1 part per set number of parts made. One would hope they at least function check every assembled rifle.

As a production manager of a shop I was able get the crew on board and implement 100% inspection on every single part that went out, paperwork checked off and signed. It was costly but It eliminated all customer returns.

 

[MinistryOfTruth]

May be the difference between a QA and. QC department?
And apparently at best they are only inspecting 1 part every few hours, or maybe 1 part per set number of parts made. One would hope they at least function check every assembled rifle.

As a production manager of a shop I was able get the crew on board and implement 100% inspection on every single part that went out, paperwork checked off and signed. It was costly but It eliminated all customer returns.

Agreed. And i suspect LMT knows exactly what the failure rate is. They just quit caring. That’s what kills me.

At this point, I would shit my pants if they don’t know they have a problem…one they are OK with.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Y’all made me nervous as shit with this thread.
Thankfully my 20” 308 SS barrel arrived yesterday without defects or QC issues.
So that’s a win.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

Y’all made me nervous as shit with this thread.
Thankfully my 20” 308 SS barrel arrived yesterday without defects or QC issues.
So that’s a win.

Shot my new 20” SS barrel today for the first time. Just ballparked a load with Varget and 178 BTHP and was grouping about 0.9moa at 100 yards.

 

[River44]

Waiting on the LMT fan boys to come in a say some stupid stuff…"does it shoot?" "what do you expect for the money" " I know so and so at LMT, you should have emailed them before you went public".…