What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

[CaveMan50]

I need some help. Any experts here?

So I picked up a Howa 1500 Ranchland combo in .308 for my wife last year, secondhand. They have good reputations, so I bought with confidence.

Out of the box, 165gr Remington Ballistic Tip ammo made big-ol' 5" groups. No big deal, some rifles like different ammo. Plus, we wanted to get a better scope and rings.

German DAG made the same 5" scatter-gun style groups. And so did some milsurp PMC and some cheap-o steelcase, as I expected.

No biggie -- there were so many variables, it could have been a loose mount or ring.

Last weekend we got her the Bushnell 10x mil-mil scope that a lot of people seem to like. We also got some steel rings, and we loc-tited the shit out of it.

Then we bought Federal Gold Metal Match ammo, and some Federal 180gr Power Shok, just to see what it could do.

The results were horrible.

Here's some visual aids--

The Howa being a scatter gun with match ammo:

The Howa making a long curvy string with 180gr ammo:

By comparison, my AR-10 shot that match ammo like it was BORN to do it:

The AR-10 kicks ass with the 165gr Remington (This is the same stuff that wouldn't group with the Howa before the new scope and rings):

The AR-10 at least makes a "group" with the 180gr stuff:

I put the AR pictures up there to give you some comparison. All of them were shot on the same day, by the same shooter (me), off the same bench.

WTF is going on with this Howa???

Any ideas on what I can do to make this thing make a group? I'm not looking for all holes touching -- just a 2" group would make me happy.

I inspected the muzzle, and there doesn't seem to be any damage to the crown. The stock is a Hogue stock, and seems to free-float the barrel unless there is flex in it. And honestly, I'm not looking for "free-float" type of accuracy. Maybe a new standard sporter stock would do us some good.

I DID take the stock off once, to put the magazine conversion in the gun. Is it possible I didn't torque the two screws down to the right pressure? How tight should they be??


I need some help, Snipers Hide!!! Share with me your knowledge!

Thanks in advance. --CaveMan


Here's what the gun looks like -- my wife checking eye relief on her new Bushnell 10x:

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Check the scope base/rings to make sure they're tight. Other than that, I'd get a different stock. If it's like my old one it'll have a small piece of plastic in the barrel channel that sticks up and puts pressure on the barrel... and if any pressure is put on the stock (bi-pod, hand, etc...), it'll change that pressure being applied to the barrel, which leads to erratic groups. If that pressure pad is not there, then there could be a problem with the torque numbers. I don't know the specs but if you call Howa they should be able to tell you.

Sorry if none of this helps, It's all I could think of at the moment without getting too drastic.

 

[former naval person]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

I vote on the new stock. Some folks like the overmolded stick, but IMHO there is too much wiggle.

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Do you know how the gun shoots clean with no fouling? Could be that the gun is too dirty/fouled. How many rounds does the tube have on it?


Could be that there is not enough copper fouling in the barrel or there is to much. To fix this is obvious.

Before I dumped any money on the gun I would have a smith look at the bore. It may be that the barrel is just shot out. Rings and base not being torqued to spec can cause problems with accuracy. Not trying to be a smart ass here, but poor cleaning habits cause more damage to a gun the most of us would like to admit.

How did the gun shot when you got it? What has been done that could have caused this? If the gun shot fine before any changes were made, I would set the gun back up in its previous state. Then, I would make one change at a time till I found the cause.

 

[Bosshoff]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

I would put the original parts back in, and send it back to Howa. Think of what you have already wasted in ammo and time. Pay the UPS man, and move forward.

 

[hewlett260]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

First check all the screws and action bolts. Then try to clean the shit out it. And if you want to get into making it shoot, here is the route I took: Howa factory stock options aren't the best. The first thing to go on mine was the stock. Got a B&C, made sure it was free-floated and bedded it. That Hogue is also (let's be honest here) a total piece of shit. Got a Timney Trigger and a 20 MOA base with GG&G Aluminum Sniper Grade rings and have my Mark 4 10x on it. Total not counting the rifle itself or scope was $470. Then again after you check everything you could try shooting it yourself. Or have somebody else shoot it. Not sure though, that's the first time I've ever seen someone's Howa not shoot well.

 

[Joe40x]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Try another scope.

 

[remau308]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

The Bushnell shoul not be the problem. However, I've only seen groups like that because of a broken scope or loose rings/base/action screws. If everything on the gun is tight, I would say its either the scope, or you're shooting out of a smooth bore...

 

[Ledzep]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Torque, optics, stock, crown, bore.

That's what I would look at and isolate in that order.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

I know the problem exactly: it's because it says howa on it. Simply grind it off and stamp it Remington or savage.

Just kidding, check the stock.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Are you sure you aren't walking your shots?

Granted this rifle isn't a 'ragged hole' gun, but I see signs in pic #2 of walking the stock after the previous shot. Maybe you aren't resetting in the exact same spot.

 

[Temp9]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

I don't think this is a shooter error. Usually I'll call this as the first place to check, but the group differences are pretty large between the two guns.

A properly functioning crappy stock shouldn't cause 5+ inch groups. Maybe 2 inch groups, with a good shooter. However, check the torque settings on the stock screws. Also, make sure there isn't anything inside of the stock between the stock and the action, like dust or dirt. When reistalling the stock, install it with the barreled action muzzle up. This way, the recoil lug butts up firmly against it's adjacent surface in the stock.

Check the scope base and rings for proper torque.

Check the barrel for obvious damage.

Try a completely different scope, if you haven't already.

If that all fails, get in touch with Howa.

 

[CaveMan50]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

EVERYONE--

Thank you so much for the replies!!!

I'm sorry I did not respond sooner, I keep getting dragged away to the non-shooting parts of life. Lame, I know.

Ok, there are some REALLY good responses in here. Here are my next actionable steps:

1. Clean the shit out of it. I realized we've put about 35 round down the bore of this gun and never cleaned it. (We bought it secondhand, so the previous owner could have never cleaned it.) I looked down the bore and can see bits of dirt, although not major fouling in the rifle grooves. I will clean, shoot, and report back.


2. I'm gonna try to re-torque the screws on this stock. The ONLY thing I have done to this gun which could affect the accuracy (aside from not installing a scope and rings correctly), is take the stock off once. I took it off to install the magazine conversion.

This is what user Temp9 said above: "However, check the torque settings on the stock screws. Also, make sure there isn't anything inside of the stock between the stock and the action, like dust or dirt. When reistalling the stock, install it with the barreled action muzzle up. This way, the recoil lug butts up firmly against it's adjacent surface in the stock."

...I will try that, and report back.

Does anyone know WHAT POUNDAGE the stock screws should be torqued to?


3. Send back to Howa??? I'd love to send back to Howa, but as far as I know, Howa is in Japan. Legacy Sports is an importer in Nevada. I doubt they manufacture, assemble, or gunsmith. If my home-grown fixes don't work, I think I'm fucked. :-(

 

[steelman303]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

I had the same problem with the plastic at the end of the stock touching the barrel a while back. Not to say that all problems are alike, but getting some clearance between the stock & barrel worked for me.
Keeping in mind though that Howa makes hunting rifles.
Most hunting is done at less than 200 yds with most deer (that i've seen) & killed taken at less than 100 yds.

I dropped my hunting rifle a few years ago as I was climbing into a deer stand (before all of these safey devices).
Had a Walmart Bushnell on it.
Knocked the recticle & it never would hold zero again.
Just some food for thought.

 

[coug]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

35 rounds is just getting going most of the guys I know only clean the bore about every 200 rounds. I do the same. I have not lost accuracy yet before a cleaning unless the barrel is starting to go. I also don't think you have a stock problem. I think you have a scratched crown or chamber. Or really bad head space. Check all of that.

 

[Temp9]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CaveMan50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EVERYONE--

3. Send back to Howa??? I'd love to send back to Howa, but as far as I know, Howa is in Japan. Legacy Sports is an importer in Nevada. I doubt they manufacture, assemble, or gunsmith. If my home-grown fixes don't work, I think I'm fucked. :-(
</div></div>

http://www.legacysports.com/repairs/repairs.html

You won't be totally lost, unless of course, their CS is like Taurus....

 

[The Surgeons Ghost]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

It may be that the gun does not have enough copper fouling in it. I have seen some rifles, that have had all the copper fouling removed, take upwards of 70 - 80 rounds down the tube to get it back to where it groups nicely. Although 70 - 80 rounds to get the copper back on the barrel is a bit much, it does happen in some barrels.

I would start with a clean rifle and then run about a 100 - 125 or so rounds through it. Then see if the accuracy comes back. If it does, do not clean the rifle again until the groups begin to open back up. At that time, groups opening up, I would then do a cleaning on the barrel. But, very important, do not remove all of the copper fouling from the barrel from here on out. So that way, the next time you take it out, you should not have to run as many rounds down the tube to lay the copper down on the barrel that the gun likes for accuracy.

Try this after you check the torque on the bottom metal, scope base, and rings before you take it to a smith or send it to the manufacturer. I feel this may be your problem, to clean to begin with and and you are not getting enough copper down on the barrel before you give up and start wondering about why the gun does not group.

Try this out and get back with us. Then, if the gun is still throwing poor groups, we will look at something else.

Good Luck CaveMan!

Brian
The Surgeon

 

[Defcon424]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

A stock making that much of a difference ? Dunno about that. Sometimes you just get a bad barrel , its how it goes I guess. My vanguard shoots half moa with power shock, guess I got lucky.

 

[coug]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

It may be that the gun does not have enough copper fouling in it. I have seen some rifles, that have had all the copper fouling removed, take upwards of 70 - 80 rounds down the tube to get it back to where it groups nicely. Although 70 - 80 rounds to get the copper back on the barrel is a bit much, it does happen in some barrels.

I would start with a clean rifle and then run about a 100 - 125 or so rounds through it. Then see if the accuracy comes back. If it does, do not clean the rifle again until the groups begin to open back up. At that time, groups opening up, I would then do a cleaning on the barrel. But, very important, do not remove all of the copper fouling from the barrel from here on out. So that way, the next time you take it out, you should not have to run as many rounds down the tube to lay the copper down on the barrel that the gun likes for accuracy.

Try this after you check the torque on the bottom metal, scope base, and rings before you take it to a smith or send it to the manufacturer. I feel this may be your problem, to clean to begin with and and you are not getting enough copper down on the barrel before you give up and start wondering about why the gun does not group.

Try this out and get back with us. Then, if the gun is still throwing poor groups, we will look at something else.




This was the best advise you have been give.....

 

[Frank]

Re: What the heck is going on with my wife's Howa?

Take the aftermarket magazine thing out and put it back to stock. It may not be fitting correctly and creating a pressure point.