Night Vision What tube would you want in your clip on?

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Hey fellas!

Ok so theoretically speaking here... If you could get your
Pvs-27 re-tubed with whatever tube you want, what would you choose. Here’s your choices!

A: L3 White Filmless

B: Photonis White 4G

C: White Elbit

I put Elbit on there to be nice but I doubt many would want that. They won’t offer anything that the Omni VII-VIII does not,besides the color change.

However the Filmless technology in the L3 and the highlight resolution of the 4G would be a vast improvement over the ITT that they house currently. We all know that the 27 is a beast because of that monstrous Cat lens up front. But could you imagine that paired with a really nice filmless L3?! Think about this first.... Let’s say we’re shooting 800 yard steel targets and there’s very minimal ambient light and we have to hit the illuminator of choice to see the steel. If your illuminating steel at 800yrds then you probably have some sort of high power illuminator. Let’s say the specs on our L3 WP filmless tube is:
72lp
35.x SNR
.5 EBI
65k luminance
.8 Halo

Here’s the tricky part! That tube has a Line pair resolution of 72. But that’s low light....The high light resolution is 36lp. As soon as that high power laser/LED illuminator hits the steel your looking at 36 measly lp’s!

Now, we all know that the 4G is lacking in the low light department. But with a few secrets and a really good power supply, they retain all of their highlight resolution! let’s say this 4G tube spec is:

70lp
30.x snr
Blah
Blah


So we’re back at the range again... Same targets at 800, same really dark conditions but with a 4G in the 27 instead of the L3. Obviously if the L3 needed a boost with the illuminator were going to need it for sure with the 4G. Click it on and bam, still 70lp resolution!

So! What do you think would be best for you? This has been a long debated topic between some close friends and myself for quite sometime. Obviously if your LEO or MIL you don’t need to be letting the world know where you are with your LA5 illuminator, but for the casual hunter/shooter looking to hit yotes or steel at great distance this is a good debate.

Jay

 

[SkyScrapin]

Hey fellas!

Ok so theoretically speaking here... If you could get your
Pvs-27 re-tubed with whatever tube you want, what would you choose. Here’s your choices!

A: L3 White Filmless

B: Photonis White 4G

C: White Elbit

I put Elbit on there to be nice but I doubt many would want that. They won’t offer anything that the Omni VII-VIII does not,besides the color change.

However the Filmless technology in the L3 and the highlight resolution of the 4G would be a vast improvement over the ITT that they house currently. We all know that the 27 is a beast because of that monstrous Cat lens up front. But could you imagine that paired with a really nice filmless L3?! Think about this first.... Let’s say we’re shooting 800 yard steel targets and there’s very minimal ambient light and we have to hit the illuminator of choice to see the steel. If your illuminating steel at 800yrds then you probably have some sort of high power illuminator. Let’s say the specs on our L3 WP filmless tube is:
72lp
35.x SNR
.5 EBI
65k luminance
.8 Halo

Here’s the tricky part! That tube has a Line pair resolution of 72. But that’s low light....The high light resolution is 36lp. As soon as that high power laser/LED illuminator hits the steel your looking at 36 measly lp’s!

Now, we all know that the 4G is lacking in the low light department. But with a few secrets and a really good power supply, they retain all of their highlight resolution! let’s say this 4G tube spec is:

70lp
30.x snr
Blah
Blah


So we’re back at the range again... Same targets at 800, same really dark conditions but with a 4G in the 27 instead of the L3. Obviously if the L3 needed a boost with the illuminator were going to need it for sure with the 4G. Click it on and bam, still 70lp resolution!

So! What do you think would be best for you? This has been a long debated topic between some close friends and myself for quite sometime. Obviously if your LEO or MIL you don’t need to be letting the world know where you are with your LA5 illuminator, but for the casual hunter/shooter looking to hit yotes or steel at great distance this is a good debate.

Jay

In this example the 4G is a no brainer. Interestingly, I didn’t know you could retain high light center res in a Photonis. Can you speak more about how that is?

 

[cake5150]

I like mine the way it is, but I would love to have an L3 filmless autogated GREEN tube in there since I rarely use illuminators. Of the choices you listed, the L3 would be my pick.

 

[jwramp]

In this example the 4G is a no brainer. Interestingly, I didn’t know you could retain high light center res in a Photonis. Can you speak more about how that is?

Not all of the Photonis tubes list their highlight resolutions on their website (and an Echo tube I used to have from them didn't list it on the spec sheet either), but here's an example where the mins are 72 normal resolution and 55 high light resolution. To contrast, my L3 unfilmed tubes list mins of 64 normal and 36 high light (20ua and actuals are 72/36). Not sure if the testing is consistent between the two shops, but people often quote the Photonis "gen 2+" tubes as retaining more resolution and performance in higher light level environments (maybe like when you crank on an illuminator for your clip-on). Could be based on these "high light resolution" specs.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Not all of the Photonis tubes list their highlight resolutions on their website (and an Echo tube I used to have from them didn't list it on the spec sheet either), but here's an example where the mins are 72 normal resolution and 55 high light resolution. To contrast, my L3 unfilmed tubes list mins of 64 normal and 36 high light (20ua and actuals are 72/36). Not sure if the testing is consistent between the two shops, but people often quote the Photonis "gen 2+" tubes as retaining more resolution and performance in higher light level environments (maybe like when you crank on an illuminator for your clip-on). Could be based on these "high light resolution" specs.

right. I have 6 filmless white tubes and I can’t even recall what the high light actual is. Low light is 72 in all of them. I’m just wondering if the Photo is high light resolution is straight up bullshit, or if its Scientifically proved.

 

[Frog05]

right. I have 6 filmless white tubes and I can’t even recall what the high light actual is. Low light is 72 in all of them. I’m just wondering if the Photo is high light resolution is straight up bullshit, or if its Scientifically proved.

I dont think its any secret that the highlight resolution is better with the 4g than the filmless. Now how each entity comes up with their numbers and how that process compares with each other, I do not know.

**just thinking out loud here** Keep in mind that video was made through what I assume would be pvs-14's. So in a clip-on would the difference be even more noticeable since you are magnifying the image?

 

[TNVC_Will]

Great post.
I've seen a filmless 1701 sheet with 40 high light res (not huge) so higher than 36 is possible but I don't know how much higher they are capable of.

I don't think the high light advantage of 4G would be enough to offset the overall superior performance of filmless WP to make it better for all around use with & without IR.

 

[NHPiper]

So I picked up a brand new pvs27 and immediately started seeing if this was possible to do. I spoke to several people at FLIR and basically they might be willing to swap a tube, but only at the request of a .gov agency. So if you know someone who does this work, let me know!

Regardless, I'm not sure that swapping tubes would get you better resolution. Here is a picture of my PVS27 vs. a loaner CNVD-LR from L3 with a WP tube. Both through a Leupold Mk 6 at around 8x zoom at 500 yards, no illuminator. You can see the box housing a steel target and the white paper targets to the right.

I took the pvs27 to a lake the following weekend at was able to clearly see a party boat (pontoon boat) at 903 yards with a Perst 3, no ambient light nearby. That is the third picture. I had a handheld iPhone behind my scope, so take it with a grain of salt.

For what its worth (I wish I took a photo), I was able to clearly see details in a church steeple under a full moon this weekend at 1940+ yards with no illumination and the pvs27. And was able to easily get up 15x+ zoom before the image started to degrade. So short story, having a white tube would be cool, but I am not sure it would gain you that much. Maybe I got lucky with my unit, but the CNVD does that fair that well, especially at higher zoom ranges (granted it was not designed for that).

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

How about this?

 

[RTH1800]

A lot of us would settle for the ones Pete stole from us.

 

[NHPiper]

How about this?View attachment 7370424

You doing the install?? haha

 

[Frog05]

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

 

[TNVC_Will]

Looking forward to seeing this

 

[Bravo6niner]

Wish I wouldn’t have sold my pvs27 now!!!

 

[NHPiper]

View attachment 7370465

I want to know how you did the install haha.

My PVS27 has pretty good performance. This is it through an Athlon Cronus UHD Tactical spotting scope at 7x and 20x at 100 yards.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

I want to know how you did the install haha.

My PVS27 has pretty good performance. This is it through an Athlon Cronus UHD Tactical spotting scope at 7x and 20x at 100 yards.

Well I’ll say this. It ain’t easy. Not even almost. I have built just about any kind of night vision device under the moon and this one is no joke. There are parts and pieces in there that HAVE to be replaced with every unit. The tube gets epoxied into the aluminum housing seen above and you can not remove it. So you have to have those on hand and if you screw up with the epoxy.... Well you’ve lost a $3000 tube because you’ll demolish it trying to get it out. Then there’s no contacts in there. Meaning the power and ground wires get soldered directly to the tube. There’s a fine line of not enough heat and too much when it comes to the pot of that tube when soldering to it. It took quite sometime and I was a nervous wreck but hey, it’s a bad mofo now!

Jay

 

[E-Tool]

Go on?

 

[cake5150]

Well I’ll say this. It ain’t easy. Not even almost. I have built just about any kind of night vision device under the moon and this one is no joke. There are parts and pieces in there that HAVE to be replaced with every unit. The tube gets epoxied into the aluminum housing seen above and you can not remove it. So you have to have those on hand and if you screw up with the epoxy.... Well you’ve lost a $3000 tube because you’ll demolish it trying to get it out. Then there’s no contacts in there. Meaning the power and ground wires get soldered directly to the tube. There’s a fine line of not enough heat and too much when it comes to the pot of that tube when soldering to it. It took quite sometime and I was a nervous wreck but hey, it’s a bad mofo now!

Jay

You've got brass balls taking one apart to do this, good on you. I am looking forward to seeing thru tube pics. I almost bought a non-functional unit just to take it apart and see how it ticked, did you by chance take pics of the insides and how you disassembled it step by step? If so, I would absolutely love to see them. I am happy as a pig in shit w/ my "lowly" OEM Pinnacle PVS-27, the image is phenomenal.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Well she’s crispy! Didn’t even take an illuminator with me. I mean who needs one at this point right? Haha

 

[acudaowner]

I want this stuff
to hell with the grainy green or gray think https://www.x20.org/color-night-vision/ looks way nicer now to figure out how to pay for it all lol

 

[Frog05]

Whoa! Looks sharp! @Surgeon_Shooter what magnification are you at in that pic?

 

[TNVC_Will]

Well she’s crispy! Didn’t even take an illuminator with me. I mean who needs one at this point right? HahaView attachment 7371203

is that the Photonis?

 

[KYpatriot]

Wow thats amazing. Im looking for a pvs-27 and I keep missing used ones and will likely just end up buying new from tnvc unless surgeon will sell me that one

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

is that the Photonis?

No sir this is the 22UA. The 4G is next in line!

Wow thats amazing. Im looking for a pvs-27 and I keep missing used ones and will likely just end up buying new from tnvc unless surgeon will sell me that one

Whoa playa! I haven’t even burnt it with a laser yet! Haha

 

[SkyScrapin]

Jay- can you share known tube specs on that WP image. She’s a beaut. Gotta be 81lp

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Jay- can you share known tube specs on that WP image. She’s a beaut. Gotta be 81lp

Thanks man! It’s:

72lp
34.5snr
.8 ebi
.8 halo
62k gain

I have a couple more that have a bit better specs but they were .6-.7 halo. I wanted to pick at least .8 for recoil reasons.In person it looks better than what the sheet says. It’s a very nice 22ua.

Jay

 

[jwramp]

Interesting comment about the low Halo values and recoil issues - got any more info on that?

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Interesting comment about the low Halo values and recoil issues - got any more info on that?

The lower the halo reading the more susceptible the tube is to recoil damage. Or any vibration damage for that matter really, even dropping it while it’s powered on. The ITT and L3 “WG” (weapon grade) tubes that I’ve seen are all higher halo tubes as well. Most of those being around 1.0-1.2 to be exact. The tube that came out of this 27 is a F9815 wg. I’m going to do a little estimate on the halo compared to other tubes when I get a chance. I have a couple Elbits with 1.0-1.1’s to test it beside. But yes, a .6 halo tube would make me nervous in a 27 for sure.

Jay

 

[NHPiper]

@Surgeon_Shooter any interest in doing a swap like this in the future on my pvs27?

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Well she’s crispy! Didn’t even take an illuminator with me. I mean who needs one at this point right? HahaView attachment 7371203

so how much is something like this going to cost?

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Well fellas I’ve been half scared to talk about this lately from the possibility of breaking some rules or even getting banned.

So! I went ahead and paid to play. I’m now a vendor here and I’m legal! We will be offering custom Pvs-27’s with the tube of your choice, color coating of your choice and warranty! All units will have new tubes installed and will come with data sheets. If you want to have yours re tubed we can do that also. We are working on pricing for complete units that have already been re tubed and coated and pricing for you sending in your unit to get re tubed and coated. If you don’t want it coated that’s fine too. These units will have a collimation guarantee. All units will be collimated and tested before you get it. If for some reason the collimation gets knocked off for any reason I will re collimate it free of charge and pay shipping both ways. I will make a post about this in the next day or two to post pictures, videos and pricing. If you have any questions please feel free to message me!

thanks!
Jay

 

[NHPiper]

Well fellas I’ve been half scared to talk about this lately from the possibility of breaking some rules or even getting banned.

So! I went ahead and paid to play. I’m now a vendor here and I’m legal! We will be offering custom Pvs-27’s with the tube of your choice, color coating of your choice and warranty! All units will have new tubes installed and will come with data sheets. If you want to have yours re tubed we can do that also. We are working on pricing for complete units that have already been re tubed and coated and pricing for you sending in your unit to get re tubed and coated. If you don’t want it coated that’s fine too. These units will have a collimation guarantee. All units will be collimated and tested before you get it. If for some reason the collimation gets knocked off for any reason I will re collimate it free of charge and pay shipping both ways. I will make a post about this in the next day or two to post pictures, videos and pricing. If you have any questions please feel free to message me!

thanks!
Jay

Awesome!! What do you think @WillHugh, time to get yourself a PVS27 and upgrade mine too?

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Well fellas I’ve been half scared to talk about this lately from the possibility of breaking some rules or even getting banned.

So! I went ahead and paid to play. I’m now a vendor here and I’m legal! We will be offering custom Pvs-27’s with the tube of your choice, color coating of your choice and warranty! All units will have new tubes installed and will come with data sheets. If you want to have yours re tubed we can do that also. We are working on pricing for complete units that have already been re tubed and coated and pricing for you sending in your unit to get re tubed and coated. If you don’t want it coated that’s fine too. These units will have a collimation guarantee. All units will be collimated and tested before you get it. If for some reason the collimation gets knocked off for any reason I will re collimate it free of charge and pay shipping both ways. I will make a post about this in the next day or two to post pictures, videos and pricing. If you have any questions please feel free to message me!

thanks!
Jay

great news

 

[cake5150]

Well fellas I’ve been half scared to talk about this lately from the possibility of breaking some rules or even getting banned.

So! I went ahead and paid to play. I’m now a vendor here and I’m legal! We will be offering custom Pvs-27’s with the tube of your choice, color coating of your choice and warranty! All units will have new tubes installed and will come with data sheets. If you want to have yours re tubed we can do that also. We are working on pricing for complete units that have already been re tubed and coated and pricing for you sending in your unit to get re tubed and coated. If you don’t want it coated that’s fine too. These units will have a collimation guarantee. All units will be collimated and tested before you get it. If for some reason the collimation gets knocked off for any reason I will re collimate it free of charge and pay shipping both ways. I will make a post about this in the next day or two to post pictures, videos and pricing. If you have any questions please feel free to message me!

thanks!
Jay

That's a pretty big deal, very cool. The demand for 27s is about to go full retard. Going to have to grab a mag of SS109 and make some sparks tonight

 

[KYpatriot]

Looking forward to seeing this progress. Great news/peace of mind having a repair and replace option.

 

[TNVC_Will]

Any updates on the 4G?

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Any updates on the 4G?

It’s going in this weekend sir!
Jay

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Well fellas.... I knew this wouldn’t be easy and I went in to this project knowing that there were several thousand dollars on the line. I haven’t had many problems but there’s been some no doubt. It’s been a learning process and I’m always open to take on a challenge that others are scared of. Last night I had the 22ua 100% complete. When I say complete I mean complete. The collimation was absolutely perfect. Maybe not perfect but 1/8 MOA from being there. Considering they come from Flir with a 1 MOA guarantee I’d say it was pretty good. The lock tite had began to set and the set screws on the prism we’re becoming pretty stiff to move. Once the elevation adjustments were completed and tight I moved to the windage adjustments to snug them up before I called it a night. As soon as I started to turn the windage adjustment.... Click

I had a really good idea of what I had done.Powered it on and yep, broke the input glass on the prism. I’ll blame it on my massive arms and brute strength but you can call it what you will. I thought the resistance on the set screw was the lock tite but it was already tight enough.

Its no big deal. I mean it is but if one thinks he can go into a project like this and not mess something up he’s delusional. I know what I did wrong and I know how to avoid that mistake next time. Yes it cost me a couple grand and it sucks but I’m determined to get this done and I won’t stop until I do. Here’s a picture of the hiccup.

Jay

 

[WhereNow&How]

Well fellas.... I knew this wouldn’t be easy and I went in to this project knowing that there were several thousand dollars on the line. I haven’t had many problems but there’s been some no doubt. It’s been a learning process and I’m always open to take on a challenge that others are scared of. Last night I had the 22ua 100% complete. When I say complete I mean complete. The collimation was absolutely perfect. Maybe not perfect but 1/8 MOA from being there. Considering they come from Flir with a 1 MOA guarantee I’d say it was pretty good. The lock tite had began to set and the set screws on the prism we’re becoming pretty stiff to move. Once the elevation adjustments were completed and tight I moved to the windage adjustments to snug them up before I called it a night. As soon as I started to turn the windage adjustment.... Click

I had a really good idea of what I had done.Powered it on and yep, broke the input glass on the prism. I’ll blame it on my massive arms and brute strength but you can call it what you will. I thought the resistance on the set screw was the lock tite but it was already tight enough.

Its no big deal. I mean it is but if one thinks he can go into a project like this and not mess something up he’s delusional. I know what I did wrong and I know how to avoid that mistake next time. Yes it cost me a couple grand and it sucks but I’m determined to get this done and I won’t stop until I do. Here’s a picture of the hiccup.

Jay
View attachment 7384140

@Surgeon_Shooter

The height that great men reached and kept,
Was not obtained through sudden flight,
But they, while their companions slept,
Were toiling upward through the night.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

@Surgeon_Shooter

The height that great men reached and kept,
Was not obtained through sudden flight,
But they, while their companions slept,
Were toiling upward through the night.

I needed that my friend! Thanks!

 

[NFAJohn]

Well fellas.... I knew this wouldn’t be easy and I went in to this project knowing that there were several thousand dollars on the line. I haven’t had many problems but there’s been some no doubt. It’s been a learning process and I’m always open to take on a challenge that others are scared of. Last night I had the 22ua 100% complete. When I say complete I mean complete. The collimation was absolutely perfect. Maybe not perfect but 1/8 MOA from being there. Considering they come from Flir with a 1 MOA guarantee I’d say it was pretty good. The lock tite had began to set and the set screws on the prism we’re becoming pretty stiff to move. Once the elevation adjustments were completed and tight I moved to the windage adjustments to snug them up before I called it a night. As soon as I started to turn the windage adjustment.... Click

I had a really good idea of what I had done.Powered it on and yep, broke the input glass on the prism. I’ll blame it on my massive arms and brute strength but you can call it what you will. I thought the resistance on the set screw was the lock tite but it was already tight enough.

Its no big deal. I mean it is but if one thinks he can go into a project like this and not mess something up he’s delusional. I know what I did wrong and I know how to avoid that mistake next time. Yes it cost me a couple grand and it sucks but I’m determined to get this done and I won’t stop until I do. Here’s a picture of the hiccup.

Jay
View attachment 7384140

 

[jwramp]

F

 

[GBMaryland]

I still wanna see the sucker with a 4G with a really high figure of merit / luminance gain tube!

 

[TNVC_Will]

Ouch

great attitude

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

I still wanna see the sucker with a 4G with a really high figure of merit / luminance gain tube!

Me too! I have 2 housings getting new tubes, one 22ua and one 4G. But unfortunately I smashed the prism in this one so I have no housing for the 4G now. Looking for another prism or maybe just another complete unit for the 4G to continue towards the comparison. Meanwhile the 22ua is going in the functional housings to under go collimation retention tests. Then it’s off to coating and laser.

Jay

 

[GBMaryland]

My suspicion would be that with the size of the lens that the number of photons coming in would be sufficient that even slightly less powerful intensifier will generate an excellent picture.

More to the point that all the mitigation that Photonis has put in place will insure the intens tube will be awesome in a PVS 27!

One of the primary reasons a PVS14 side-by-side, unfilmed versus Intens, the run of the mill Intens Is edged out so well is that the lens on a 14 is so substandard.

for all but the most critical night vision needs (pitch black) the intens are going to do real well here… Especially in busy environments where highlight conditions come and go.

The key will be finding a 2800+ FOM Intens tube... those are hard to come by...

Though SurgeonShooter has been able to find 35:1 SN Echo tubes... but their center resolution is typically not as good as the Intens, and they don’t have the high end power supply.

 

[jeffl838]

Are filmless tubes durable enough for magnum use? The 27 as it is comes rated by the manufacturer for 50bmg

 

[GBMaryland]

I thought that one of the problems was that there’s a separation between the film and the actual microchannel plate... And that some tubes had issues were the film breaks and starts hitting the microchannel plate.

I also thought that wasn’t supposed to be an issue with an unfilmed tube.

The ICT labs EVO tubes are actually L3 Unfilmed or ITT thin filmed tubes of a specific spec, and the only difference is the PSU and the housing.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Well fellas, I took the 27 out for it’s first live fire test last night. This post isn’t to tell you about how it looked but rather how the collimation is going. But I can’t proceed without noting that this MF is absolutely beautiful! Ok back to business...So I took two rifles to do some testing with.

Rifle #1: Surgeon .308, 18” proof carbon, Manners carbon folder equipped with a badger EFR and harvester can. 3-27 S&B

Rifle #2: HK Mr556/4x32 Acog

I got a quick zero on the rifle (I mean quick because I was losing daylight) and who wants to shoot during the day anyway? Zeroed the turrets and then waited for dark.

I had some 6” circle plates hanging at 200 and 230. I dialed up .5 Mils and started firing at the 6” imposter. I hit every shot I fired except for when I’d get excited and try to hit it mid swing. I then added .2 to the turret and beat on the plate at 230 some just to spend some rounds under the 27. Then I mounted the 27 to the HK and fired 60 rounds of 69 grain SMK’s at 230 also. Same results, sparks went everywhere.

I then put the 27 back on the surgeon to see how much shift I had. Looking back I should have grouped it first thing of the night and then grouped it again when I was done for the night. But I didn’t and I’m going back tonight to do that....

When I first swapped the tube this thing was 6 Mils or so high and 2 Mils right. Last night I put 50 rounds through a pretty lightweight.308 and 60 rounds of 5.56 under the 27 and it’s exactly 2 MOA low. I understand there’s several people out there that already have more collimation shift than that but I’m not satisfied at all. I’m shooting for 1/2 MOA or better. Can I do it? Hell I don’t know but I’m definitely going to try, aim small miss small right?

Going back tonight to adjust collimation and then beat on it again. I’ll have a pretty cool video of it in action soon also. Anyway here’s the host rifles and the 5 shot groups when I was finished. Apparently my rifle is more accurate with the 27 on it . That’s a heck of a 5 shot group, especially at 2am!

Getting this thing collimated better and sending to get coated this week!

Jay