What types of groups are good shooters getting with .308 winchester at 100 yards?

[want2learn]

I know it sounds silly but I'm very new to rifle shooting.

I've been working hard at learning my Sig SSG3000 in .308 Winchester. Working on good trigger control and breathing timing, grip, body position. Reading a lot.

I can fairly often shoot groups of .8 inch at 100 yards with a good number of 4 shot groups at around .39inch to .5 inch or so.

Its a stock gun. No modifications, but i've been working on different hand loads.

Not sure where very good shooters tend to end up with stock set ups.

I so often see people showing pictures of 3 or 4 shots going through one little crescent hole but not sure if that's rare or to be expected by good shooters.

thanks

 

[mark5pt56]

Those little pretty groups happen to everyone, some more to others. Nothing wrong with what you are doing. Don't get frustrated just work on technique and field positions and have fun

 

[Kells81]

With 2 of my 308's I can make a nice little hole with 5 shots. It is off a bipod and a good rear bag setup pretty solid. I shot the 2 newest ones for groups over 2 days and then I haven't shot a group with them since. Pretty much wanted to make sure my load worked in these two the same as it has every other 308 I have had. Its damn hard to beat a 175 over 43.5-44 Varget seated at 2.800. I settled on 43.5 a few years ago because I had a rifle that would dang near require a bolt beating at 44gr. That became something else so I have been doing my latest at 44.0.


Find the video about shooting off of a Bipod. That is probably the single thing I have done that has improved my accuracy to date. I have taken it so far as I sold my bench vice and shoot 100% off a SBRM these days.

 

[...]

my .308 will regularly shoot .8-1 moa with premium off the shelf ammo......its a mostly stock Remington 700 in a bedded greyboe stock.

my buddies .308 which is a blueprinted remington 700 with a bartlein barrel will regularly shoot .5 moa with handloads.

the thing you have to remember, is peoples shooting stories are just like their fishing tales.......fish get bigger, and groups get smaller.........someone will take an off the shelf rifle and shoot one .2 moa group out of the blue....and theyll claim it shoots .2moa "all day long"......no it wont, they just got lucky once.


be wary of people reporting group size with 3 shot groups.......3 shot groups are BS........5 shot groups should be the minimum....10 shot groups are better.

the only reason people shoot 3 shot groups is because they cant shoot 2 shots and call it a "group".......and they know they or their gun, cant keep that nice small group size if they fire any more rounds.

 

[308Gunner]

When I had a 308 barrel on my Scapel with my hand loads it was a sub half MOA gun with the occasional .2 group thrown in. I just shoot groups at a 100 when working up a load, and then I take it out to 300 and further

 

[hic28]

These are both 5 shot groups through my 23" gap built bartlien tempest with 175gr fgmm.

Dots are 1"

 

[hic28]

These are both 5 shot groups through my 23" gap built bartlien tempest with 175gr fgmm.

Dots are 1"

 

[SRPowah]

If you are under an inch consistently as a new shooter, you are on the right track. I know guys who have hunted their whole life that freak out when I hit a ground squirrel 250 yards out on the first shot, and swear they wouldn't shoot at deer that far away.

My stock Remington 700 in a XLR chassis shoots .8 moa groups with 168gr FGMM. Sure I get the occasional .5 groups, but that is honestly lucky grouping. My .300wm on the other hand is consistently .6 moa with Hornady factory ammo, and .8 means I made a mistake. lol Every rifle is different. Some need handholds to shoot nice, some do great with factory ammo.

 

[BurnOut]

I'm happy with anything 1/2" or less. I'm usually a bit above that, but every now and then things line up to give me that 1/2" (5-shot) group that I'm striving for.

 

[want2learn]

Thanks everyone, that really helps.
hic28 incredible shooting...one day i hope to get there, I'm trying.

 

[SRPowah]

Thanks everyone, that really helps.
hic28 incredible shooting...one day i hope to get there, I'm trying.

Remember there is chance you will run into your weapons, for lack of a better term, mechanical precision limit. Like Mcameron and I stated above, our factory barreled Remingtons are consistently around the .8 mark. Hand loading might tighten it up a little, but my rifle will most likely never be capable of consistent sub .5 groups regardless of the shooter's ability.

 

[dryfire]

100 yd 5 shot groups, prone position, with Harris bipod and rear bag, 10x fixed scope.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Erud]

I never shoot at 100 yards, but more often than not in 300 to 600 yard matches I can keep all 20 shots inside 2 moa with 50-80% of those inside 1 moa shooting from prone with a sling and iron sights.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the only reason people shoot 3 shot groups is because they cant shoot 2 shots and call it a "group".......and they know they or their gun, cant keep that nice small group size if they fire any more rounds.

some of us only shoot 3 cause thats all we need and its no use wasting more ammo at 100 yds

 

[TripleBull]

It's amazing what the best shooters and guns can do:

https://kriegerbarrels.com/smallestgroup

Quite a few shooters can go under 0.25 MOA at 100 with 5 shots. You'll need a pretty good rifle and excellent ammo to get there. It's harder to do with factory ammo.

 

[pmclaine]

Yesterday I shot 15 one shot groups at a 1/2 inch circle at 100 yards using 175 grain FGMM. My sighters are top right......



The rifle....



If you live in the northeast or like to travel you could bring your SSG to Sig Academy, Exeter NH, for a class.

Ive been to a few there. Its helpful.

 

[brianf]

your on the right path and there has been a bunch of good stuff on the post.
factory rifle shooting FGMM 308 .5-.75 is really good if you are consistent. not one group out of 5
something you might want to try is shooting dots not groups.
new shooters (but not only) get spooked about the last shot if they have 4 touching, its really hard to coach out
down load a few targets that are set up with dots in rows and columns
shoot one per dot
also start taking some notes about first shot, last shot. you dont have to get crazy about it but you will be amazed the patterns that form

if you arent into the dot game then at least dial you scope 1-2 inches away from the bull.
the idea is to aim at the same spot every time and not have bullet holes mess up your sight picture.
if you hit the "X" with 2-3 shots...where do you aim next.
your little bull turned into a 1/2" hole

 

[Bakwa]

Keep in mind that internet talk is no different than hunters telling tales about how they shot a deer at 400yds when it was really a 180yd shot.
Most of the guys that are really shooting these beautiful groups have expensive custom rifles, have been hand-loading extensively, and/or probably have an impressive shooting history. Just because they can shoot a one hole group every once in a while, doesn't mean that they or their rifle are a sub .25MOA shooter.
With how you say you are shooting, you are already in the top 1% of shooters, and probably in the top 25% of target shooters. So you're doing alright to say the least.
The 308 is just as accurate as the next caliber. It will only be at distances that you'll start noticing some rounds overcoming obstacles better than others.
I have an M&P10 in 308 that will fluctuate between .7-1.25MOA with good factory ammo. Taking me out of the equation will probably make the rifle a .6-1MOA rifle. This is not a limitation of the caliber, but of the rifle. I also have a Tikka CTR in 6.5CM that recently has been giving me .1-.8MOA with good factory ammo. This rifle has been amazing. Again, not because of the caliber, but the particular rifle is just a good one. Either of these rifles would be even better without me behind them or with the proper hand-loaded ammo.
I don't mean to patronize or babble, but thought some of this might help to clear up some things.

 

[brianf]

Bakwa is correct on the internet shooters.
we used to have a range boss that would call out joking "ok guys lets see those 1/4" groups you all talk about, anyone want to take the bet".
he would take out 10-15 bucks, and some of the guys on the line would have one 5 shot group. solid rest/benchrest guys down the end of the line werent allowed to play.
not as many winners as you would imagine from looking on the internet

 

[houndog]

Like you I have a SSG 3000, which I really like. With FGMM I find about 80-90% of my groups are between .6-1.0 MOA. Occasionally they'll open up, but I suspect that's me, not the rifle. I once shot a fun benchrest match at my local club. 20 consecutive shots at 100 yards. My 20 shot group was just under 1.2" But that's a very good string for me. Like anything, you will improve with practice, and, if your SSG is like mine, you can be pretty confident that the gun isn't holding you back.

Also, like the suggestion that you try going to Sig Academy (or another shooting school if you live in a different part of the country). I'm in Mass. and have taken a carbine course with them. Great facility and good instructors. One of the guys in my course had previously taken their precision shooting course and said by the end of the day he was pretty consistently hitting steel at 1000 yards.

 

[want2learn]

thanks, that means a lot. Didn't mean to mislead, i still of course get even larger groups but i generally attribute them to a new unfavorable load or i got lazy with technique etc. The group sizes i listed are when i felt everything was going well.

I guess that's where my concern developed. I felt like i did a good job, the load was good, but i wasn't obtaining the 4 shots in one hole that i had envisioned.

I'll try the dot technique as described and really appreciate the input.

I'm reading a couple of books and working hard to develop technique and loads. For me its a labor of love right now, i'm really enjoying the sport.

One day perhaps i'll make it up to Sig. I went there a few years back for a Bruce Gray class, it was a fantastic experience.

There is i'm told a long range rifle class held every few months about an hour a way. I was reluctant to try it before as i only recently purchased a scope and rifle...and to be honest, I was discouraged by the quality of my groups.... It's probably a good time for that class now.

 

[SRPowah]

There is i'm told a long range rifle class held every few months about an hour a way. I was reluctant to try it before as i only recently purchased a scope and rifle...and to be honest, I was discouraged by the quality of my groups.... It's probably a good time for that class now.

Shoot a bad group or two at one of those classes and they will tell you exactly what you did wrong and how to fix it. Those bad groups will become more rare in no time.

 

[pmclaine]

The feedback on recoil management via proper position and having another shooter eyeball your rifle, shooter, scope interface to adjust setup make a class worthwhile even if you never fired a live round.

 

[houndog]

Shouldn't be discouraged at all. You sound like a solid shooter who is honest about his abilities and eager to improve. From my limited experience taking classes, most instructors care more about safety, a good attitude and a willingness to learn than they do about your level of ability when you arrive. Ultimately, there is only so much you can learn on your own. Researching on these forums, watching youtube videos, etc, is a great place to start, but there is no substitute for hands on coaching.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I shoot groups in order to compare the POI consistency of individual charge weights within a range of charge weights during load development. Otherwise, group size s just a statistic, and not an especially important one for me.

Once I have my load, it's on to more important things, like computing drops and comparing them against actual distances, and against a wide range of environmental conditions. Doesn't matter so much to me how well a load groups as much as whether I can bring that grouping to bear and actually hit the intended target.

The best groups in the world are kinda pointless if they're going a yard over the POA.

"Gee, Bambi, I just heard the strangest noise..; oh, look at that, that tree over there just shook.... Group, what's that?"

Greg

 

[Mike402]

After going to the Angeles Shooting range out near LA and talking to one of the Range Masters recently, I don't even pay attention to groups posted online anymore. He was telling me that he has seen it all, people shooting groups at 25 or 50 yards, and writing 100 on the target. Of course I think the vast majority of members here don't do that, but it makes the idea of online competitions and such pretty silly to me now.

Just focus on practicing the fundamentals and trying to improve your own performance. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing.

 

[...]

some of us only shoot 3 cause thats all we need and its no use wasting more ammo at 100 yds

and if youre using it to get sighted in.....thats fine........i do the same thing, fire a 3 round group to verify zero.

but when im testing lots of ammo, or testing mechanical changes to a rifle......or even shooting groups to boast about my tiny group sizes.......im firing at least 5x 5-shot groups...

 

[morganlamprecht]

and if youre using it to get sighted in.....thats fine........i do the same thing, fire a 3 round group to verify zero.

but when im testing lots of ammo, or testing mechanical changes to a rifle......or even shooting groups to boast about my tiny group sizes.......im firing at least 5x 5-shot groups...

takes me less than 25 rounds to work a load and be zero'd for a match lol

have fun wasting ammo

 

[Quarter Horse]

OP, your on the right path. I looked at some of your other posts and you ask cogent questions. You haven't told us how often you're able to shoot or what the rest of your gear is so some of my suggestions may not be applicable.

Dry-fire as much as you can. When you first get to the range dry-fire. Don't start shooting until your crosshairs remains steady on the target at the trigger release.

Try FGMM 168s. At shorter yardage, they shoot a little better for a lot of guys. For me it's about .1-.15" better. If you can, get a shooter of known ability to shoot your rifle. This will help give you a baseline and a reasonable goal.

Go to the Advanced Marksmanship Forum and peruse the the sticky that is the online competition. Download the target and shoot it. You will be able to judge your performance against a couple of hundred other people.

If your scope is a variable and goes up to say 20X, make sure you dial down to say 15X. Your eye box will be less critical and you will see less movement.

Lastly, NPA, NPA and NPA. Precision shooting is about doing the right thing the same way every time. It is human nature to want to get the shot off and it's way to easy to just tweak the gun a little to get your crosshairs on target.

These are simple things that you may or may not already be doing. As has already been said you're well on your way.

 

[...]

takes me less than 25 rounds to work a load and be zero'd for a match lol

have fun wasting ammo

......its called "practice".......im not sitting there lobbing rounds aimlessly......but if you call shooting and getting trigger time "wasting ammo"......it probably explains you think 3 rounds are adequate.

you can shoot your 3 shot group......i shoot my 25.....well see whos better prepared for a match

 

[morganlamprecht]

......its called "practice".......im not sitting there lobbing rounds aimlessly......but if you call shooting and getting trigger time "wasting ammo"......it probably explains you think 3 rounds are adequate.

you can shoot your 3 shot group......i shoot my 25.....well see whos better prepared for a match

I'll be fine, don't worry

 

[delfuego]

takes me less than 25 rounds to work a load and be zero'd for a match lol

have fun wasting ammo

Ha!

You will have to PM me some secrets. I got a recipe for a 27 round work up I am trying this week.

 

[VegasHKShooter]

Op, I will echo what has been said above, with one thing to consider: all of our components are so much better now than they were even 10 years ago. Computer CNC machines that can hold tolerances to .0001, makes barrels, triggers, stocks, ammo, everything better now.

There re was a time, not THAT long ago that if you had a sub MOA rifle, you had something. I'm not talking about the high end customs, but an off the shelf rifle. There was a time that a MOA at 100 yds was the ruler by which we measured. Now, that number seems to be cut in half. Nowadays, there are MANY rifles that are sub $1500 that will shoot .75 or better. Look at the Ruger RPR, the Savage chassis rifle (can't recall the name), or a Howa. We are shooting factory rifles now, with factory ammo, and getting .7-.8 and wondering if we can do better. Think about that..... One had to spend quite a bit more $$, and handload well to get a .75 group just 10-15 years ago.

I shot my Hornady 147 ELD Match bullets yesterday using my LabRadar, and my SD was 6fps. That's from factory, out of the box ammo. I'd be happy to get my handloads that consistent.

I guess im just saying this: you're shooting just fine. You're above what a VAST number of shooters can do already. Also, I believe SH has a higher than average amount of highly skilled shooters that subscribe and talk here. Not all, but a higher than average amount. You're doing great. Keep training, keep practicing,and keep learning. Those groups will continue to shrink.

 

[HairyDemon]

Yesterday I shot 15 one shot groups at a 1/2 inch circle at 100 yards using 175 grain FGMM. My sighters are top right......



The rifle....



If you live in the northeast or like to travel you could bring your SSG to Sig Academy, Exeter NH, for a class.

Ive been to a few there. Its helpful.

PMClaine........that 1/2 in circle target is fantastic where did you get that I wanted to start shooting 1 shot drils at small dots instead of shooting groups.

 

[pmclaine]

PMClaine........that 1/2 in circle target is fantastic where did you get that I wanted to start shooting 1 shot drils at small dots instead of shooting groups.

Lets see if this works...

https://www.m40rifle.com/filedata/fetch?id=29491&d=1504455076

 

[1J04]

PMClaine........that 1/2 in circle target is fantastic where did you get that I wanted to start shooting 1 shot drils at small dots instead of shooting groups.

If that doesn't work for ya you can try this.

 

[pmclaine]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lowlight is trying to get the target page links from the Data book suppliers back on line something is screwed up with the service provider I guess and it cut the old links.

If you go to the link 1J04 so kindly provided go to the reference section on the left side of the page for the target down loads.

 

[1J04]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lowlight is trying to get the target page links from the Data book suppliers back on line something is screwed up with the service provider I guess and it cut the old links.

If you go to the link 1J04 so kindly provided go to the reference section on the left side of the page for the target down loads.

I thought something was screwy buddy. Thanks for the explanation. It's a good link still. I just printed out some more for myself. By the way, I REALLY love that Rifle setup. Damn !!!

 

[pmclaine]

I thought something was screwy buddy. Thanks for the explanation. It's a good link still. I just printed out some more for myself. By the way, I REALLY love that Rifle setup. Damn !!!

A Mark Williams, Raven Rifles, Pulaski VA build....

The gentleman aims to please and knows how to speak the language of M40.

 

[1J04]

A Mark Williams, Raven Rifles, Pulaski VA build....

The gentleman aims to please and knows how to speak the language of M40.

Simply Beautiful. In hindsight, I remember you showing this Rifle in the past and answering a question or two for me on it. The name rung a bell.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I once averaged a Savage varmint over 90 'five' round groups over long period of time winter through fall. The 90% confidence level settled in at .75 MOA after about thirty groups and stayed there. The load was PPU brass, N150, 168SMK, COAL 2.8", 2650 MV.

 

[Mike Casselton]

OP,
one of the things you mentioned was using different loads or changing things around.
My recommendation is to pick a single load that performs decent. Using that load and only that load, you will find the limitations of yourself and the limitations of the rifle and specific load.
When I first started hand loading, it was for a TC Contender pistol in 30 Herrett. I didn't have a choice because there are no factory rounds for it.
I loaded up test rounds with 110,130 and 150 grain Hornady bullets, all using the same powder and primer.
The load that averaged the best is what I stuck with until I mastered the pistol.
Then, and only then did I begin trying out new stuff.
My reasoning was simple. If I could bring group size down, that was me improving my shooting technique.
If I had been changing loads around, I would have no standard to judge myself or the pistol and ammo to.

Changing your shooting technique and loads at the same time tell you absolutely nothing.
The old adage of change only one thing at a time is and always will be relevant.

Pick a load, shoot the snot out of it and massage your technique until you become consistent. Then, play with components if you still need to.
Just my free .02 cents worth

 

[JBM_DC]

I'll be fine, don't worry

I am sorry, but this made me laugh pretty hard. Choked on my coffee. I'll second everything Morgan said. 3 rounds at 100 to confirm and the rest to practice beyond that distance. I will stick to my .22lr for shooting groups.

"I'll be fine, don't worry" Too funny!

 

[JBM_DC]

I know it sounds silly but I'm very new to rifle shooting.

I've been working hard at learning my Sig SSG3000 in .308 Winchester. Working on good trigger control and breathing timing, grip, body position. Reading a lot.

I can fairly often shoot groups of .8 inch at 100 yards with a good number of 4 shot groups at around .39inch to .5 inch or so.

Its a stock gun. No modifications, but i've been working on different hand loads.

Not sure where very good shooters tend to end up with stock set ups.

I so often see people showing pictures of 3 or 4 shots going through one little crescent hole but not sure if that's rare or to be expected by good shooters.

thanks

I really don't know anything about the SSG3000, but when I had a factory 700 in an XLR chassis it would perform about the same as you are seeing. I would assume your rifle would be of higher quality and able to do better. The main things that helped me that you haven't already mentioned were not lifting my head after every shot, keeping my eye through the scope and on target. Learning to drive the rifle and follow through. If you are shooting from a bench try to shoot from the prone position and square up behind the rifle. You want a nice heavy fill rear bag and not one of the lighter ones you see around. Loading the bipod slightly should help as well.

The other biggest advice I was given by a well respected friend of mine is to forget about what everyone else is doing. Though I watch him sometimes and he doesn't follow that advice.

 

[RedRooster]

Tikka CTR 308 factory barrel
178 ELD-x
varget
lapua brass

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Work up a load based on the OBT chart and you'll be fine, don't worry

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Red, you missed the "+". Next time walk it in with the next group.

 

[want2learn]

Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and information. The rifle is a Sig SSG3000 in .308 Winchester upon which i have mounted a Sig Tango 6 3-18x44 riflescope using an American Defense QD 20 moa mount.

I hope to make it out to the range tomorrow if my back holds up.

I'm going to try to be a bit more systematic in my approach and hone my technique.

Working on dry firing as well.

Grateful for the input.

I'll see if i can find and download the comparative target as well.

 

[RedRooster]

Red, you missed the "+". Next time walk it in with the next group.

Haha. That's where they landed when doing then OCW and seating depth groups. Rest assured they got walked up and over when confirming the load and will put em right on the '+'.

 

[TheGerman]

Look in the Barrett MRAD thread. I posted quite a few 5 shot strings from load development on the 308 barrel with 175SMK and 2000MR and was constantly getting .5,.6 5 shot groups.