What would you do in this situation?
- Thread starter Chong Li
- Start date
Had my build from RW Snyder delivered a few days before the earliest time estimate. Then had LRI deliver a build exactly on time. It just varies by shop.
I had a named smith build a 300wm years back, never shot worth a shit. Had it re-barreled by a no name, now it's shoots like it should have the first time.
Last year had different (first no name was covered up) no name build another 300wm with a lighter barrel, that thing is a laser. The smiths who talk but don't deliver on time. Or the smiths who play games with other peoples money should be outed every time.
Having waited well over a year or two for numberous custom built traditional bows I can understand your anxiety level. Good things to do while you wait are establish a good and reliable means of communication and ask for their definite drop dead deadline. Let communication be from them to you. In some cases when customers keep calling for progress work slows down but that’s mostly in small shops where the owner does everything including answering phone calls and emails. It’s a lot less frustrating when you know what’s going on.
EXACTLY...
It's not the time, it's the expectations. They're just hurting themselves by taking on work they can't handle because guess what...I'm never going back to this shop. I may only buy prefits going forward because of this. If I do send another one off, you better believe I'm sending all the components with it. Lesson learned the hard way I guess.
Calling a smith up and telling him what you want to build and then letting him procure parts for your specific build is a different scenario and longer wait times are to be expected. The way you circumvent this is gather your components yourself from anywhere you can, including used stuff. Then go to the smith, or better yet buy components you can spin up yourself.
Enter the modern Smith that is keeping actions on hand and pumping barrels out with cnc lathes and promoting barreled actions etc. Getting the run around from this type is what can get maddening. Especially when they give you the lip service on it’s no problem to get your rifle out by a certain date. Meanwhile they take on more and more work which eventually flushes out their inability to keep track of everything because they are poorly organized and their business skills don’t match their rifle building skills.
Don’t get me wrong there are badass smiths that are true to their word and do great work and some of them even do it fast. I’ve experienced a few. A few have already been mentioned but I hate seeing people get screwed over.
Enter the modern Smith that is keeping actions on hand and pumping barrels out with cnc lathes and promoting barreled actions etc. Getting the run around from this type is what can get maddening. Especially when they give you the lip service on it’s no problem to get your rifle out by a certain date. Meanwhile they take on more and more work which eventually flushes out their inability to keep track of everything because they are poorly organized and their business skills don’t match their rifle building skills.
Don’t get me wrong there are badass smiths that are true to their word and do great work and some of them even do it fast. I’ve experienced a few. A few have already been mentioned but I hate seeing people get screwed over.
Accuracy International would totally clean up all the money if they would come out with an AT system that was an Action, trigger and bottom metal, that took their barrels & magazines, but then could be easily put into all manner of different 3rd party stocks.
Probably every major stock maker would start having specific stocks for it & it would be hugely popular
(I'd buy one right away)
They could charge just about what they charge for an AT now, and ship it to you ready to go minus the stock.
Probably every major stock maker would start having specific stocks for it & it would be hugely popular
(I'd buy one right away)
They could charge just about what they charge for an AT now, and ship it to you ready to go minus the stock.
Pro Tip: take how long a smith estimates.....and triple it......that is how long you should expect.
if its a known smith and hes not feeding you BS answers....wait it out.......if they need more time, theyll be upfront and tell you.......unfortunately, a lot of REALLY talented people when it comes to building guns absolutely suck at running a business.
if its backdoor larry gunsmithing....and hes feeding you BS about how "the rotary encabulator on the lathe went out and im waiting on new parts from japan"........get your money and run.
if its a known smith and hes not feeding you BS answers....wait it out.......if they need more time, theyll be upfront and tell you.......unfortunately, a lot of REALLY talented people when it comes to building guns absolutely suck at running a business.
if its backdoor larry gunsmithing....and hes feeding you BS about how "the rotary encabulator on the lathe went out and im waiting on new parts from japan"........get your money and run.
Sorry to hear about your troubles. There have been several smiths mentioned and I would like to offer another option: Accurate Ordnance. The first rifle they supplied all parts and it took about a month to build. The second rifle I supplied the parts, with an agreed upon time frame of three (3) weeks. I was going on vacation and was going to spend some time at K&M in TN, and wanted a 6.5 Creedmoor. It was built on a Manners T4A with a mini chassis and love it.. The rifle was delivered the exact day we agreed upon on the front end. Both rifles shoot better than I do. As others have mentioned, it may not be cheap, but they do damn fine work.
Edit: from everything I have read, heard, etc, PVA does great work. There are always difficult issues when growing a business. My hat's off to Josh and wish him great success.
Edit: from everything I have read, heard, etc, PVA does great work. There are always difficult issues when growing a business. My hat's off to Josh and wish him great success.
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Rather than beat around the bush and continue the PM rumors, here's everything that I understand about the build and the timeline:
We were contracted on the build.
The quote was for the build to be done before the shop move. This was quoted because we had everything in hand except the stock (customer was sending it) and the action. The action had just been quoted to arrive by the end of February which was appx 6 weeks away.
THe parts supplied by us were brake, barrel blank, receiver and trigger.
We had a lead time on actions quoted by the manufacturer to have them in our hands by the end of February.
We also had a shop move scheduled for the second half of February.
Because of the shop move the barrel was cut, labeled with the build name and slid into the rack with the rest of the parts in a bin. I knew machines would be down and estimated for it, getting work done sooner so that only hand tools and fixtures were needed to finish work instead of machinery.
Action is not here and we begin the shop move.
We received a partial shipment of actions but all of them were customs scheduled and named on other builds.
Due to this the receiver named for the OP arrived on May 3rd. That's the piece that really caused the build delay. Not our fault but still our fault.
I didn't lean on them for delivery updates because of the myriad of other things going on due to the shop move, new equipment, etc. It is something I typically kept pace with but due to all the other moving parts of outfitting the new shop space, moving the machinery, chasing contractors I simply didn't get to calling and asking "what's the status".
In the mean time we missed a couple emails in February with the shop move and 1 the last week of April that was followed up within a day or two when the action arrived from the manufacturer and booked in. Currently I'm sitting down in the shop catching up on PM's and listening to the lathe contour barrels because we are now contouring in house. This cuts our lead time down on blanks so we can get caught up on the backlog. I haven't spent much time on the forum for obvious reasons but rather than beat around the bush and continue the rumor mill we are the shop that was late on it.
The shop move took 6 weeks instead of 2. Every single vendor with the exception of the Security Camera company did something to delay their piece. Late machinery arrivals, rigging companies that no showed multiple days in a row.... you name it, I had to chase it down. I've stated this part before, probably a month ago when I wrote an update on the move, the JHR, Nucleus barreled actions, etc. During that time anyone that called was told we were having problems with the shop move. I don't think we took on a lot of work other than the stuff that was for Hancocks and Nucleus. Very little gun work outside of that. I did try to help a couple local guys in a jam on some suppressor related work that was really jacked up by a competitor.
The OP is correct, I'm irritated about a full refund on a now completed project waiting to go out the door. The irritation was really not aimed at him though I'm sure it came across that way on the phone. The day that he and I spoke was 1 day after I had a lengthy conversation with an action manufacturer about this exact dilemna.
The OP was issued a full refund, his stock shipped back the day after he and I spoke on the phone.
I realize that we are well past due on a number of projects. I'm taking off tomorrow from the shop for Mother's Day but otherwise myself and Jeremy are working 6-7 days a week on a split shift so that more time is spent with spindles turning than if we were in the shop at the same exact time. We are currently quoting extended lead times on gunsmithing projects and I've been recently turning down certain things because I know we have a lot of Nucleus, Origin and Hancock barrels coming when the actions arrive. Some of the first Nucleus and Origin barrel orders shipped yesterday and the BarLoc parts arrived this week so some of those are headed out now too.
For several weeks now we have refused to take on builds unless the action is in hand by either the customer or our shop. The gentleman involved in this discussion is one of the reasons we had a long conversation with the action supplier and I'm no longer going to quote work based on quoted availability. There are some retailers that have receivers, we've pointed customers to them on multiple occasions and even purchased some ourselves at retail cost to finish outstanding work that is missing a part.
Perhaps the OP will take this as a public statement and apology.
I'm sorry that his work took this long and it came to him missing activities. We did the best we could with the parts in hand, once his barrel was done I stopped thinking about his work until the actions showed up. That's my fault, I should have made a note to call about the action but I failed to do so. We are endeavoring to do better and have changed procedures here to improve that issue with supply lines.
There are some other customers in that boat still and we're working on getting their stuff done too. If anyone has questions on their build, we'll answer them via phone or email. I have too much to do to spend a lot of hours sitting on forums so we need to streamline to just 2 avenues of communications. I will say this, for folks that have been patient with us we have been sending along discounts for things taking as long as they have been. While it may be nice to go back in time that's not reality, the best thing I can think of to accomodate customers who waited is to send them some of the quoted price back on the work.
I'm going to get back to pushing blanks through the lathe for contours to be cut for now but if anyone has questions, please send us an email or give us a call during business hours. 405-753-0608
For the sake of getting things done on the weekend I'm not answering the phone on Saturdays or Sundays.
We were contracted on the build.
The quote was for the build to be done before the shop move. This was quoted because we had everything in hand except the stock (customer was sending it) and the action. The action had just been quoted to arrive by the end of February which was appx 6 weeks away.
THe parts supplied by us were brake, barrel blank, receiver and trigger.
We had a lead time on actions quoted by the manufacturer to have them in our hands by the end of February.
We also had a shop move scheduled for the second half of February.
Because of the shop move the barrel was cut, labeled with the build name and slid into the rack with the rest of the parts in a bin. I knew machines would be down and estimated for it, getting work done sooner so that only hand tools and fixtures were needed to finish work instead of machinery.
Action is not here and we begin the shop move.
We received a partial shipment of actions but all of them were customs scheduled and named on other builds.
Due to this the receiver named for the OP arrived on May 3rd. That's the piece that really caused the build delay. Not our fault but still our fault.
I didn't lean on them for delivery updates because of the myriad of other things going on due to the shop move, new equipment, etc. It is something I typically kept pace with but due to all the other moving parts of outfitting the new shop space, moving the machinery, chasing contractors I simply didn't get to calling and asking "what's the status".
In the mean time we missed a couple emails in February with the shop move and 1 the last week of April that was followed up within a day or two when the action arrived from the manufacturer and booked in. Currently I'm sitting down in the shop catching up on PM's and listening to the lathe contour barrels because we are now contouring in house. This cuts our lead time down on blanks so we can get caught up on the backlog. I haven't spent much time on the forum for obvious reasons but rather than beat around the bush and continue the rumor mill we are the shop that was late on it.
The shop move took 6 weeks instead of 2. Every single vendor with the exception of the Security Camera company did something to delay their piece. Late machinery arrivals, rigging companies that no showed multiple days in a row.... you name it, I had to chase it down. I've stated this part before, probably a month ago when I wrote an update on the move, the JHR, Nucleus barreled actions, etc. During that time anyone that called was told we were having problems with the shop move. I don't think we took on a lot of work other than the stuff that was for Hancocks and Nucleus. Very little gun work outside of that. I did try to help a couple local guys in a jam on some suppressor related work that was really jacked up by a competitor.
The OP is correct, I'm irritated about a full refund on a now completed project waiting to go out the door. The irritation was really not aimed at him though I'm sure it came across that way on the phone. The day that he and I spoke was 1 day after I had a lengthy conversation with an action manufacturer about this exact dilemna.
The OP was issued a full refund, his stock shipped back the day after he and I spoke on the phone.
I realize that we are well past due on a number of projects. I'm taking off tomorrow from the shop for Mother's Day but otherwise myself and Jeremy are working 6-7 days a week on a split shift so that more time is spent with spindles turning than if we were in the shop at the same exact time. We are currently quoting extended lead times on gunsmithing projects and I've been recently turning down certain things because I know we have a lot of Nucleus, Origin and Hancock barrels coming when the actions arrive. Some of the first Nucleus and Origin barrel orders shipped yesterday and the BarLoc parts arrived this week so some of those are headed out now too.
For several weeks now we have refused to take on builds unless the action is in hand by either the customer or our shop. The gentleman involved in this discussion is one of the reasons we had a long conversation with the action supplier and I'm no longer going to quote work based on quoted availability. There are some retailers that have receivers, we've pointed customers to them on multiple occasions and even purchased some ourselves at retail cost to finish outstanding work that is missing a part.
Perhaps the OP will take this as a public statement and apology.
I'm sorry that his work took this long and it came to him missing activities. We did the best we could with the parts in hand, once his barrel was done I stopped thinking about his work until the actions showed up. That's my fault, I should have made a note to call about the action but I failed to do so. We are endeavoring to do better and have changed procedures here to improve that issue with supply lines.
There are some other customers in that boat still and we're working on getting their stuff done too. If anyone has questions on their build, we'll answer them via phone or email. I have too much to do to spend a lot of hours sitting on forums so we need to streamline to just 2 avenues of communications. I will say this, for folks that have been patient with us we have been sending along discounts for things taking as long as they have been. While it may be nice to go back in time that's not reality, the best thing I can think of to accomodate customers who waited is to send them some of the quoted price back on the work.
I'm going to get back to pushing blanks through the lathe for contours to be cut for now but if anyone has questions, please send us an email or give us a call during business hours. 405-753-0608
For the sake of getting things done on the weekend I'm not answering the phone on Saturdays or Sundays.
1) I have never met Josh
2) I have never done business with PVA
I am new here to SH but from what I have seen Josh has his business ethics squared away!
And he is man enough to answer difficult questions and name name's.
2) I have never done business with PVA
I am new here to SH but from what I have seen Josh has his business ethics squared away!
And he is man enough to answer difficult questions and name name's.
I’m not upset that I went JAE for my current build but I think Tom Manners will be next. Simply too many stories out there about this guy going above and beyond.
Josh is a stand up guy and does great work, his business has exploded over the last year or two, so he's still learning the ropes while he's growing the business. Josh done a fantastic job on my 6.5x47 Lapua and I have a 6 creed Nucleus barrel coming from him as well. Can't wait!!! Shout out to Josh for owning this and clearing the air...
Real stand up guy. I have been watching your shop and was really wondering when this day would come. It happens to everyone where they do great work and begin to expand. Take projects on and start cranking away but the expansion goes so fast can’t keep up with demand. This is a good and bad thing.
I applaud you for realizing things were going wrong and getting things in order to fix the issue. You are allowed to have screw ups and issues along the way. It’s the companies who don’t attempt or don’t care to fix them who fail and cause more issues in this industry.
Good for you PVA for standing up and “outing” yourself.
I applaud you for realizing things were going wrong and getting things in order to fix the issue. You are allowed to have screw ups and issues along the way. It’s the companies who don’t attempt or don’t care to fix them who fail and cause more issues in this industry.
Good for you PVA for standing up and “outing” yourself.
I have one of his projects (a Browning Micro Medallion in .17AH). Yes, he does very nice work!
That's kind of what happens when there are lots of "bandwagon buyers/builders" out there. The "next big thing" or maybe "new big thing" becomes an "overnight success" as soon as the "reviews" hit the internet, people rush to "build" with and cancel or change existing orders and before there is actually stock on the shelves and usually before the "new product" is past "prototype" stage there is a flood of "pre-orders" that noob manufacturer's go broke trying to "fill" and slightly more experienced manufacturers who have almost gone broke in the path playing that game but didn't learn enough to not play it anymore take a more cautious approach and wait til the "initial rush" calms down and then produce the product on more of a "just in time" basis. And plenty of noob gun builders get in over their heads trying to be "gun shops" and spend lots of time and money on "builds" they send out to be "reviewed" and get in over their heads and can't secure the funds to buy all those high-end parts at "feeding frenzy" prices and don't ask for deposits up front thinking their "customers" will just go elsewhere if they want paid up front or they'll have to refund the money if the "build" gets canceled/changed before they get done with it.
When they're using "barrel blanks" and are trying to maximize their "input" into the "build" and are also "bandwagon builders" and depend on "builds" for their bottom line and most "builds" are "bullet-based" its only natural that a "build" is going to take as long as it takes to get the last part ordered/delivered plus "build time" and few "builders" have any idea that successful, long-time manufacturers of "custom" components and parts don't, won't and can't go into "high-volume production" at the drop of a hat and being a "gunsmith" doesn't move some "noob" customer to the front of the line ahead of "amateurs" that aren't "gunsmiths" but are established, proven and loyal customers of that "brand". Barrel blanks are a "commodity" and typically what's "in stock" at manufacturer's who sell "commodities" instead of finished products is the "leftovers" from previous "fads" and/or "scraps" left over from taking several feet of "barrel blank" that came out "premium" after rifling and whacking off however much some "good customer" wants and will pay a "premium" for.
Plenty of manufacturers of "premium" parts find out the hard way that its infinitely harder to make parts that "shoot good" when installed/assembled into actual guns than it is to make SHOT Show "samples" that are shiny and pretty and ready for lots of "fingering". Especially when those parts are assembled with a pile of other parts from other manufacturers by a "gunsmith" who does things like promise a "build" will be done in a month out of wishful thinking, inexperience, hope for a "payday" in a month or all of the above. If making a "prototype" takes 10 hours its unreasonable to think "production" parts are going to take 10 hours minus "programming, planning and prep" time simply because there is a CNC machine in the house and taking a part made "manually" and doing whatever high-tech mumbo-jumbo is involved in getting it "drawn" on CAD and getting a CNC machine to just "crank out" perfect "copies" is difficult to impossible. CNC machines can't "think" and they can't even recognize what material is in them and can't pick/choose which tools, feed rates etc to use to "copy" that manually-made "master" and that handful of feed speeds and rates is the difference between producing "good" parts and "junk" parts. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
The existing state of affairs as far as "wait times" and "availability" is exactly what the "bandwagon builders" and "noob manufacturers" and "getting-started gunsmiths" have made it by trying to be the "first on the block" with whatever "new thing" is most "popular" on the forums, blogs, videos, etc.
When they're using "barrel blanks" and are trying to maximize their "input" into the "build" and are also "bandwagon builders" and depend on "builds" for their bottom line and most "builds" are "bullet-based" its only natural that a "build" is going to take as long as it takes to get the last part ordered/delivered plus "build time" and few "builders" have any idea that successful, long-time manufacturers of "custom" components and parts don't, won't and can't go into "high-volume production" at the drop of a hat and being a "gunsmith" doesn't move some "noob" customer to the front of the line ahead of "amateurs" that aren't "gunsmiths" but are established, proven and loyal customers of that "brand". Barrel blanks are a "commodity" and typically what's "in stock" at manufacturer's who sell "commodities" instead of finished products is the "leftovers" from previous "fads" and/or "scraps" left over from taking several feet of "barrel blank" that came out "premium" after rifling and whacking off however much some "good customer" wants and will pay a "premium" for.
Plenty of manufacturers of "premium" parts find out the hard way that its infinitely harder to make parts that "shoot good" when installed/assembled into actual guns than it is to make SHOT Show "samples" that are shiny and pretty and ready for lots of "fingering". Especially when those parts are assembled with a pile of other parts from other manufacturers by a "gunsmith" who does things like promise a "build" will be done in a month out of wishful thinking, inexperience, hope for a "payday" in a month or all of the above. If making a "prototype" takes 10 hours its unreasonable to think "production" parts are going to take 10 hours minus "programming, planning and prep" time simply because there is a CNC machine in the house and taking a part made "manually" and doing whatever high-tech mumbo-jumbo is involved in getting it "drawn" on CAD and getting a CNC machine to just "crank out" perfect "copies" is difficult to impossible. CNC machines can't "think" and they can't even recognize what material is in them and can't pick/choose which tools, feed rates etc to use to "copy" that manually-made "master" and that handful of feed speeds and rates is the difference between producing "good" parts and "junk" parts. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
The existing state of affairs as far as "wait times" and "availability" is exactly what the "bandwagon builders" and "noob manufacturers" and "getting-started gunsmiths" have made it by trying to be the "first on the block" with whatever "new thing" is most "popular" on the forums, blogs, videos, etc.
And so you point is what? I'm not understanding the intent of your post...(???)
Man, that was a “lot” of “quotation” marks. “”. “”.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Chong, you forgot to mention you ordered a build in the middle of a machine shop move. Smart move on your part not to out the vendor or the lynch mob. The shop move was a material fact that would have been helpful. Like I've mentioned twice before. People are no damn good. All you children need to keep that in mind when reading anything on the Internet. And I include myself and every other swinging dick.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
This is your first post on SH using this User ID? It would be helpful to know your position in the food chain.
I'm a human being and therefore at the top of the damned food chain. But I'm not a "sniper" or anything. Just an "old gun nut", lifelong gearhead, professional mechanic, very amateur "gunsmith" and "machinist" and a fan of anything that turns money into noise.
I read that entire post, thinking is there something in here, like some hidden key. Then I had to take an Advil for my headache, it was like watching an episode of Rosie. Too many damn quotes """"""""""""""""""
@CANTHITSH!T Might be a good idea to learn a little more about @bohem . Check out Precision Rifle Media podcast episodes 24, 25, 47, and 48. Really good episodes.
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if you think "humans" are at the "top" of the "food chain", ide "recommend" you dont ever leave the "suburbs".....for "your sake"
Yep, the quotations post hurt my head. Please don't use those again.
I've read all of this thread, and when I read about a machine shop/gunsmith who has lied about work? Move on. No thank you.
I don't think the long wait times are a problem for most of us if the truth is told upfront.
If there is a life event and production is delayed - have some common sense and courtesy - update your customers.
I have been told the same type of lies before - "parts are ordered, it will be ready on Friday, I'm working on it as we speak" - all to find out - THEY LIED.
Move on, and I will never return.
Always tell the truth, and treat other people with respect - that means communicate delays.
Brother in law had a "gunsmith" in South Carolina quote him 2 weeks to thread an AR-10 barrel. 9 weeks later he had to go get the rifle, and nothing had been done but a few scratches. The so-called gunsmith said he couldn't get the barrel off, and broke 2 AR wrenches getting it off. Joke. Liar. Incompetent, and not a gunsmith. Moved on.
Joe Collier did it in 2 days, and did it right.
I've read all of this thread, and when I read about a machine shop/gunsmith who has lied about work? Move on. No thank you.
I don't think the long wait times are a problem for most of us if the truth is told upfront.
If there is a life event and production is delayed - have some common sense and courtesy - update your customers.
I have been told the same type of lies before - "parts are ordered, it will be ready on Friday, I'm working on it as we speak" - all to find out - THEY LIED.
Move on, and I will never return.
Always tell the truth, and treat other people with respect - that means communicate delays.
Brother in law had a "gunsmith" in South Carolina quote him 2 weeks to thread an AR-10 barrel. 9 weeks later he had to go get the rifle, and nothing had been done but a few scratches. The so-called gunsmith said he couldn't get the barrel off, and broke 2 AR wrenches getting it off. Joke. Liar. Incompetent, and not a gunsmith. Moved on.
Joe Collier did it in 2 days, and did it right.
Just got back in town and reading through all the messages and the thread.
Apology accepted.
Build was to be finished before the move...but that doesn't matter now since I have my stock and I'm just waiting on the refund.
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