Still doesn’t change how fucked we arewere gonna need to start by changing your screen name….
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Whatever Happened to Quality?
- Thread starter Hobo Hilton
- Start date
21 employees One of which you say is good and 20 you say are lazy. Where the company treats all 21 like shit, one just goes with the flow, 20 say fuck this place, and just do the bare minimum because they get the bare minimum, 1 grins and bears it. The problem isn’t the employees from what I’ve seen directly. It’s the corporation that treats them like shit. Why care about making some jaded asshole at the top a ton of money, when said jaded asshole treats their employees like cattle? A ceo that does jack shit and lives high on the hog while he treats who makes his sorry shit ass rich like they’re lowlife vermin. Employees get treated like shit, given shit, and they’re expected to be grateful they have the ability to make some asshole ceo rich. Who In turn is nothing more than a polished dick.
Bullshit. Aiwa, black and decker, whirlpool, some random blackjack lcd game, various headphones and speakers, a compressor, various motors and coils, hell even a few computers from silicon graphics. Various 80’s Sony and Sansui, Mitsubishi, and toshiba. Milwaukee, zenith, and magnavox. I could go on forever. Especially when it came to electronics 60’s through late 90’s American and Japanese stuff was the shit. Took a beating kept running. A far contrast to the cheap Chinese shit that’s peddled these days.
I know. I have to go back to the bullshit tomorrow after 4 off. Gets harder every time. Corporate America will hire you for your knowledge and skills, then try their hardest to make you forget them. It’s truly sad.
Our dishwasher is over 50 years...noisy as hell but gets the dishes sparking clean in 35 minutes, as opposed to modern ones that run for 2-3 hours. We needed a new door seal, found there are forums that cater to people that keep these old beasts in operation...found a new seal!
you must have some bad experiences
I’m general (like 99.9% of the world) the general employee has no idea what it takes to run a business especially a large one. Just like the average citizen has no idea how to run a country.
if anyone thinks that a “C” level person isn’t worth the money the entire market is willing to pay him or that “C” level person has gotten from 3-4 companies in his career…shows the lack of understanding.
how many corporations will pay millions in salary and millions in bonus (which are only given if goals which were given by the board of directors are met) if everywhere the guy goes he turns the business to trash.
I have paid a few COO’s in my business. Some were good some were bad, some weren’t the right fit for the position my company was in at that time.
yet if I was starting over tomorrow and had a choice of my best line worker or one of the COO’s I’ve paid…anyone who thinks the wrench turner is more important and chooses them…I’ll be buying your equipment on the used market.
your comparing apples to oranges.
comparing a tube TV with the picture and functionality of a modern flat screen 4K tv is not a comparison.
and who says a brand that was once great or perceived to be great can be great forever. Why can’t it be surpassed by a new brand.
in Snipershide terms.
are S&B scopes crap quality or poorly run just because TT or ZCO might have passed them. Or is it that NF has put the same cost of goods into the scope yet spending more on being rugged rather than glass.
trade offs have to be made, cost of goods aren’t infinite. Someone had to pay to manufacture the product.
forgot to add.
What employee is treated like “shit”,
what labor laws have been broken
what manager is taking some of their paycheck to get OT
who hasn’t gotten a review
if they employee doesn’t like the company culture, either bring up the practices to the state labor board or get a new job that fits their personality.
not every employee fits every company.
employees get promoted and get raises because they have a skill set the company needs to succeed. They might be a shit “wrencher” but good communicator in a department that communication is vital or lacking.
If there isn’t revenue you cant hire QA personnel. QA cost money they produce nothing. You can’t buy better material, you can’t spend more on design etc. so the company is stuck buying the same junk, made by the same staff, on the same old equipment…that’s failure in the market.
The GE reference is spot on, and these clowns that know the “GE way” are becoming more prevalent in companies today. They basically strip mine the company of it’s tech/engineering/manufacturing capabilities to maximize short term profits, then sell to another unsuspecting company. These people would cut their arms off to reach sales goals, then wonder why they can’t pick anything up the next month.
But does it really?
New products are driven by the global warming efficiency culture.
Everything is sealed, compact, intended to run with minimum consumption yet still meet past performance. No wonder shit fails.
People basically pay fridge repair people these days to show up and say it's junk throw it away.
And when labor/parts costs are going to be 2/3 the cost of the new fridge with no guarantees they were able to accurately sweat the new compressor in and its likely to leak and fail again than it makes sense to toss the fridge at 5 years and buy new.
But what of the cost of milling the steel cabinet, running the production line, molding the plastic, forming the tempered glass shelves, the impact of disposal on limited and disappearing solid waste disposal areas....paying for the recycling process if that is even an option.......
I like the old Miele philosophy....parts are stocked for 30 years. My washer dryer set is at least twenty years old and though I have rebuilt shit they keep running.
Miele used to be super helpful to the residential owner during repairs but they have since moved to protecting their service program and at best now you will get an exploded parts diagram when calling with questions for a repair.
The green crowd would be better with machines that use a little more energy to run in a sweet spot for long term survival, equipment that allows service access and having parts available in assemblies, perhaps with a core return discount to allow recycling and reissue.
Of course in the short term though that would hurt profitability as machines would last 30 years and though sales would be consistent they would not grow at the rate the stock market needs for excitement or to fuel big CEO salaries and bonuses.
mostly I agree but you need to look at it from a 10,000 foot view.
no one sells a product with a quality/efficiencies/ land fill graph. Like they do with a fridge.
maybe we should and the markets would change opinion but since no one is asking no one will do it.
and if it’s done l, will you buy a dishwasher that is 2,3,10x in price because it’s higher in the curve…of course not.
we are all part of the consuming quality matrix. And we choose price over quality more often than.
we have the capability of creating incredible equipment…we have several remote control cars on other planets for years with no maintenance…they are just a little to much money for our kids at Christmas.
It’s the new biz model. Charge out the ass for something that is a shitty product, build it to where it only last 5 years or less and they keep having the buy your shitty product at insane prices. Then there is the welcome to socialism where nobody wants to work and the gov pays you to sit on your ass problem in the mix as well. Thats what happened to good products. But there is more. The best part is when they get on to you and make you pay to throw said shitty product in the landfill because they no longer make it to where it last, then they get on to you about global warming while paying to throw said shitty product away but then when you go to buy new shitty product to replace old one they charge you out the ass for the new one all while making you pay a small fee to save the world that they are destroying. Notice who the loser is? It’s just great ain’t it?
One of my favorite YouTube channels is Uncle Tony's Garage, he has several videos talking about the terrible quality of parts he has been getting lately. Stuff that is brand new in the box and defective. Here's a short one.
I used to run/own/operate a TV shop back in the 80's and 90's - we called it a "Consumer Electronics Repair Facility" and were authorized by literally every major brand to fix their stuff in Warranty and out. For 20 years we were the top of the heap for folks like Sony, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, GE, RCA and all them guys. And then it just all went away because technology moved forward so fast that by the time something was out of warranty and needed to be repaired the newer devices literally had made the 5 year old units obsolete in terms of features and were cheaper (in many cases) than fixing the older unit.
Then the manufacturers discovered that keeping a warehouse full of parts and climate control was just insane...heat/air, lights, workers, stock....so they started making a "Run" of units and no extra parts...if a unit failed under Warranty they just replaced it with the next version. If it failed out of warranty and they were supposed to supply replacement parts for 7 years they just gave the customer a new unit at a prorated price. Literally saved them *Billions* in not stocking warehouses with parts that would basically end up in the dump 7 years later.
This mentality destroyed our business in 1999 and all of the techs found jobs in other industries that required their skills and levels of expertise in troubleshooting and electronics. Back in The Day all of the managers and leaders/owners had come up thru the ranks....first a technician, then a lead technician, then they trained other new junior techs then became Service Manager, then a part owner. Our expertise moved up from sweeping the floors to being an owner over decades. Now days we "appoint" managers and leadership dependent on a host of things like education or money and whatever....anything but skill and experience in the field.
The company I work for now is owned and operated by millionaires who got to be millionaires on the skills of guys like me. And they treat me like a piece of shit that is lucky to have a job. I had three jobs in 2017, each one paid more money than the last one but they all had the same thing in common. Owned and operated by millionaires who could not do anything productive except push money and paper around. So this is one reason we have a lack of quality/lack of pride in craftsmanship and skill. "Back In the Day" craftsmen were proud of their skills and respected....now our owners and operators think we are Bitches and lucky to have a job.
I'm retired soon and cannot keep up with the changes now. I wish my coworkers luck. My Bosses and the Owner Operators can kiss my ass.
VooDoo
Then the manufacturers discovered that keeping a warehouse full of parts and climate control was just insane...heat/air, lights, workers, stock....so they started making a "Run" of units and no extra parts...if a unit failed under Warranty they just replaced it with the next version. If it failed out of warranty and they were supposed to supply replacement parts for 7 years they just gave the customer a new unit at a prorated price. Literally saved them *Billions* in not stocking warehouses with parts that would basically end up in the dump 7 years later.
This mentality destroyed our business in 1999 and all of the techs found jobs in other industries that required their skills and levels of expertise in troubleshooting and electronics. Back in The Day all of the managers and leaders/owners had come up thru the ranks....first a technician, then a lead technician, then they trained other new junior techs then became Service Manager, then a part owner. Our expertise moved up from sweeping the floors to being an owner over decades. Now days we "appoint" managers and leadership dependent on a host of things like education or money and whatever....anything but skill and experience in the field.
The company I work for now is owned and operated by millionaires who got to be millionaires on the skills of guys like me. And they treat me like a piece of shit that is lucky to have a job. I had three jobs in 2017, each one paid more money than the last one but they all had the same thing in common. Owned and operated by millionaires who could not do anything productive except push money and paper around. So this is one reason we have a lack of quality/lack of pride in craftsmanship and skill. "Back In the Day" craftsmen were proud of their skills and respected....now our owners and operators think we are Bitches and lucky to have a job.
I'm retired soon and cannot keep up with the changes now. I wish my coworkers luck. My Bosses and the Owner Operators can kiss my ass.
VooDoo
A thought about a lot of the mechanical things some call "crappy" from the 60's and 70"s... A lot of that crappy stuff is still operational. A lot of boiled down to how it was maintained. The new mechanical stuff we buy today has no option to maintain it. I think of the time "Sealed Bearings" came on the scene. A bearing with a grease fitting lasted a lot longer if it was greased frequently.. Thinking of farm equipment. A grease gun rode on the old tractors. Now the failure of a sealed bearing will take out other components.. How many people do not own a grease gun ?
Agreed but when you get to the brass tacks of it a grease gun costs more than a replacement sealed bearing.
if you are running a decent size company and not a local place…this is prob 80%
just for a grease gun and grease:
buy the gun
Part number in the computer system
Validated supplier for re ordering
Secondary supplier
Choose correct grease for particular equipment (food grade etc)
validate supplier so the grease is what they say it is
secondary supplier
Part number on tool
Part number on grease tube
Space in tool crib
Tube space in tool crib
Sign out sheet for tool
Manager/audit of tool crib inventory
Training on how to use tool
Training on what machine gets what grease gun and tube
you can’t just pop a new tube in and go from black grease to food safe
Paperwork saying you were trained
Paperwork showing the person who trained you is qualified
retraining if SOP has a update
MSDS on file
SOP or procedure and equipment on how to clean if spill
SOP or procedure and equipment on how to clean if skin /eye contact
eyewash station with expedition date on liquids
release criteria of tool when received
release criteria for tube when received
possible expiration date on food safe items
The list goes on forever
if you add all that money and paperwork up…you throw out the employee, grease gun, grease tubes and buy a sealed bearing that last 3 years.
and all that may sound stupid until a employee puts the wrong grease in the wrong fitting :
500,000$ press goes down
100,000$ in raw materials are now trash
Customer is pissed
Equipment needs parts $
Revenue that was scheduled on that equipment is now lost $
Overtime is needed to catch up $
again the list goes on…
the rank and file employee has no idea of what it takes to run a business or the butterfly effect of a simple mistake.
they laugh at break time that the belt got smoked and it stank like hell…while the company just lost more than that employee makes in 5 years…
and then they wonder why the “boss” is a dick when a simple mistake like the wrong grease was used “but we caught it before we ran the machine”
I wonder how many people with an opinion in this thread actually work in manufacturing?
Every American car I can ever remember, from the late 60s to the early 2000s was a complete shit show as far as quality, design, and engineering. Every last one of them.
There you go again with your "You should know what you are talking about before you comment" shit.
What do you want like three people on the entire fucking internet for Christ sake?
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No but most people’s opinions are about as informed as your average liberals understanding of guns.
I can’t argue with that. American cars have always been junk imo. That’s why I drove Yota’s most of my life. American cars have only in the last decade really improved but I’m not sure you can even call them American these days.
Ah see your problem was you went electric. I’ve got several echo weedeaters that are 20 years old and still going strong.
I'm in violent agreement that production supervision is incredibly difficult and it's usually really well managed in US companies. Quality on many products (notably cars) is objectively much better than in the past. I still think lots of pressures and metrics push very short-term thinking and lots of outsourcing of strategically import (and just important to the workforce) manufacturing. I will admit I am definitely prone to nostalgic "good old days" thinking. Shuttering a bunch of product lines and divisions and watching awfully hard-working, good people scramble to maintain the same standard of living has made it worse. This is just how it's always been I suppose. But there's so much specialization now that it's more difficult for workers to get back into an equivalent job once industry moves past a technology, or manufacturing goes to China, or replacement is used vs repair. And it's not just production floor workers. When I was at HP we laid off a bunch of top engineers out of top schools once the battery technology took a huge step forward in the late 90's. Suddenly what they'd specialized in was no longer relevant. Some of them got jobs in sales or marketing, but bunches had troubles for an extended time. With family break ups, lost homes, etc.
Notably, none learned to make solar panels...
And wrt outsized executive pay being "worth it", I will say that Carly Fiorina made a lot of money and yet really wasn't good for HP. And my understanding is that her results at Lucent were also very poor. It's not all her fault; the industry was in a bad place, but the executive salaries in the US are often not worth the return you get for it. And this is not an isolated case.
I understand that there have been dramatic turnarounds in some companies where if you equated the hiring of the new CEO with all the extra shareholder value of all stock, it would seem like he was worth whatever salary he demanded. But I think that's overly simplistic. While the executive has an outsized ability to affect the business (over the wrench turner), I think the pay gap is usually outsized and NOT worth every penny. And then there are golden parachutes that reward lukewarm or poor performance. Plus so much of the hiring of executives is based more on networking than actual performance. Which makes sense. Of course people bring in other people they know. And they probably think that their friend is or will be very good. But my point is that it's not a pure meritocracy driving the worker/CEO pay gap that's unique in the US. Plus, even the really poor performers are benefitting. And you'd think execs with notable failures would have more trouble picking up second and third gigs at outsized salaries if people really believed they were responsible for the companies success or failure, but in general that's not the case. Look at Bob Nardelli. I don't think he's terrible, just overpaid for performance.
Notably, none learned to make solar panels...
And wrt outsized executive pay being "worth it", I will say that Carly Fiorina made a lot of money and yet really wasn't good for HP. And my understanding is that her results at Lucent were also very poor. It's not all her fault; the industry was in a bad place, but the executive salaries in the US are often not worth the return you get for it. And this is not an isolated case.
I understand that there have been dramatic turnarounds in some companies where if you equated the hiring of the new CEO with all the extra shareholder value of all stock, it would seem like he was worth whatever salary he demanded. But I think that's overly simplistic. While the executive has an outsized ability to affect the business (over the wrench turner), I think the pay gap is usually outsized and NOT worth every penny. And then there are golden parachutes that reward lukewarm or poor performance. Plus so much of the hiring of executives is based more on networking than actual performance. Which makes sense. Of course people bring in other people they know. And they probably think that their friend is or will be very good. But my point is that it's not a pure meritocracy driving the worker/CEO pay gap that's unique in the US. Plus, even the really poor performers are benefitting. And you'd think execs with notable failures would have more trouble picking up second and third gigs at outsized salaries if people really believed they were responsible for the companies success or failure, but in general that's not the case. Look at Bob Nardelli. I don't think he's terrible, just overpaid for performance.
And wow the cost of new vehicles is insane!!!! Looking at a new suv for my wife and we looking at anywhere $45k-$100k for a freaking run of the mill vehicle!!! That’s nuts. I mean the avg home value in America is what $120k? Never mind, I see it has more than doubled in the last 20 years. I’m what most consider upper middle class and it would be rough for me to purchase any suv these days at these prices. So how in the hell are so many people out here buying cars at such prices? I mean some of these cars are literally half of what a decent house is. I mean shit I remember when $100k was like supercar territory and you could still get avg cars for like $15k. What the hell happened? Needless to say, the wife just gonna have to wait for a few more years. Where does it end tho? At some point people ain’t gonna be able to keep up! And the country as a whole hasn’t had a raise in decades yet the price of stuff just jeeps going up up and up.
I mean as mentioned above, quality has gone way up imo. But I simply don’t need a car with tvs and heated seats and all this other bullshit. But it cost you more to get one now without this stuff than it does with it. And I absolutely hate not having a physical gear shifter like most of these cars have now. Push a button and pull put it in reverse? Just not a fan of push button shifters if we can even call it that.
I mean as mentioned above, quality has gone way up imo. But I simply don’t need a car with tvs and heated seats and all this other bullshit. But it cost you more to get one now without this stuff than it does with it. And I absolutely hate not having a physical gear shifter like most of these cars have now. Push a button and pull put it in reverse? Just not a fan of push button shifters if we can even call it that.
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Yeah, American cars are complete and total junk.
Especially those ones that were built in the 60s.
Except maybe for the 1968 Super Stocker HEMI Darts & Cudas
Them are kind of cool.
Especially those ones that were built in the 60s.
Except maybe for the 1968 Super Stocker HEMI Darts & Cudas
Them are kind of cool.
I've got 40 + years in what I would call pretty heavy industrial maintenance, from a grease man, to a supervisor..........yes there are specialty greases For a lot of the newer equipment, but I am a believer that any grease is better than no grease. I have taken a hammer, and knocked grease zerks off equipment that my lubricator had written documentation that were greased daily.........after a week of that, someone else was doing the job........
Depends on your definition of junk! I should have rephrased owning many classics myself. They arent junk per say as many are still around and some in great condition. Let’s say they were more serviceable but need to be worked on often compared to modern vehicles. Since I don’t like working on cars anymore then anything that requires lots of work is labeled junk to me. Or a car that has something to wrong with it every time I drive it like my 2006 Ford F-250 I used to own. That thing was literal junk. Worked great as a work truck as long as you only expected it to haul stuff. No creature comforts, parts were just complete crap. Same with my 98 Cobra, junk. Everytime I drove it something happened to it. Now my 1967 Pontiac Firebird 400 I loved, fantastic car but it needed work, a lot but it was no ordinary car either. So I guess it’s all in the eyes of the beholder. I look at it like this, how much maintenance am I going to have to do and how much is it going to cost? I’ve driven Toyota’s without doing a thing to them other than oil change, brakes and tires for well over 400k. Good luck getting any American car in days past to do that. Nowadays, seems they have come a long way but the verdict is still open as I have yet to put that kind of mileage on an American car of recent year.
I'd ask that you define your terms, but it's a waste of time because everyone thinks their opinion of what they mean is the right one.
Let's just start by laying out some truths for those who think they understand the business but really don't
- Manufacturing is a global business
- Outsourcing is not a sign of cost cutting or poor quality
- Governments get to decide how much domestic content makes something Made in X
Honda has massive engine manufacturing plant in Anna, OH. The manufacture engines in house from both Honda made and supplier components. The Anna Engine Plant has its own foundries, machine shops, assembly lines, dynos, the whole 9 yards. Most of Honda's electronic and fuel system suppliers have setup US manufacturing operations to supply Honda's US plants. Keihin and Denso among the largest. So pretty much all Honda engines sold in the US are manufactured here with an overwhelming majority of US sourced components and raw materials.
The same exact thing happens in Honda's Russel's Point, OH plant but for automatic transmissions.
KTH America in St Paris, OH does the majority of sheetmetal body stampings for Honda using American steel. AGC (Asahi Glass Corporation) in Bellefontaine, OH produces tons of American-manufactured glass for Honda and many other automakers in the US. Greenville Technology Inc is a subsidiary of Moriroku Technology North America and is one of Honda's main suppliers of injection molded interior and exterior trim. Neaton Auto Parts in Eaton, OH casts millions of steering wheels for Honda, Toyota, and likely several other US and Asian automakers operating here. I could go on but you get the picture.
My car was assembled from all those components at Honda's Marysville Assembly Plant in Marysville, OH about 70 miles from my home. Assembled by American workers using state of the art tooling made here, in Japan, and in Europe. An assembly plant that rolled out its first Accord in 1979.
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Yeah, I hear ya,modern American cars are total piece of shit.
Thank God for the availability of Asian and European cars.
For not with them we might be stuck with total pieces of crap like this pile of junk.
Looks nice. Love the Camaros. Love the vettes. But, get back with me in 10 and let me know how the reliability is on that thing. Now if you bought it as a play toy, then that’s different. I’m talking about cars that are expected to work and run all the time, not sit in a garage.
Understood....... I would hope America does not have to fight a war....
Agreed— internet shopping killed any last drop of quality the world was capable of. Amazon put the nails in the coffin.
It's painfully clear who here doesn't understand what quality is.
Let me know when it rolls through 250,000 miles with a grand total of three repairs and only one of them (alternator) not under warranty like my 2010 Honda Fit.
Now that my daughter is in college, the Fit is back in my hands and racking 300+ miles a week as a commuter.
2002 Chevy van with 265K only a alternator, and maintenance, like brakes, etc. 2002 Buick 220K about the same repair record, very few. I will grant, Toyotas are about the best. I had an 87 pick up with the 22R engine that went 375K and started every time I turned the key.
back in 03 I had a 1981 Toyota 4x4 pickup w/ 400k on it. Clutch and alternator. Ran like a champ. Hard to beat that Toyota 22R
Hard to beat a car that needs zero, to minimal maintenance between the time it was purchased, and the time it dies. Japan and Korea definitely have us beat in the reliability game.
that is a huge piece when it comes to quality, but not all of it. Made in America was possibly the best brand in history— it really meant something ounce upon a time.
aside from reliability, we used to make sure our product was substantially better all around— quality is more than just reliability, unfortunately, it seems we’ve lost our way all around.
I’m not saying you can’t find quality in isolated instances across American product, I’m saying we lost the culture we once had to make sure American product lead the global market.
I hope we find our way again.
An unreliable machine is worthless to me.
You're right that quality is more than reliability. It's also durability (interiors that don't fall apart), ergonomics and human interface, NVH, and on and on and on.
Drive a Lexus, and you'll see.
That's because you need a four-wheeled manhood enhancement machine and I don't
Post pictures of the interior/upholstery/headliner if you can. How's that holding up?
I agree with you— interiors that start squeaking and rattling after a year, are not what I consider quality. We haven’t been in the quality zone for a while. Asian interiors are far superior across the board. Anyone who argues mustang or Camaro quality vs an IS or LC or RC is delusional. Let’s get it back!
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I'm a car dealership mechanic, decent sized place with around 25 mechanics. 25 mechanics and maybe 6 of us own a grease gun. Every single 4wd 3/4 ton truck in our lineup has at least one grease zerk. And people are baffled when those double cardan U-joints completely dry up and disassemble themselves at 40-60k.
