What 22 lr ammo have you found to be consistently 1" or less at 100 yards? Thanks
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Whats a "good" 100 yard group size?
- Thread starter *Face*
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At this time I have 2 different lots my rifle is shooting. Eley 10X and RWS R50. I go to Lapua test center in Feb or March of 24 and im sure I'll find more. If not ill get another test brick and go that rout for R50 again.
Thanks - several of my shooting buddies having good luck with R50.
It has been goo to me so far. I like the fact I can shoot Norma and have the same lube in the barrel and see the GOOD ammo for matches and Norma for practice.
Thought about it and y'er right 308.
High opinion and low commitment is an accurate description.
After 11 years of self education, I had to make a decision.
Continue with the rimfire assembly line lottery,
or shift my attention to loading my own ammunition.
With rimfire being dependent on the moment by moment differences
in cartridge components and assembly, it was difficult
to purchase cartridges capable of what I feel is required accuracy.
By moving to centerfire and reloading, I am responsible for cartridge quality.
Rimfire has been relegated to range warm up and small game hunting.
I expect better results than rimfire is capable of.
High opinion and low commitment is an accurate description.
After 11 years of self education, I had to make a decision.
Continue with the rimfire assembly line lottery,
or shift my attention to loading my own ammunition.
With rimfire being dependent on the moment by moment differences
in cartridge components and assembly, it was difficult
to purchase cartridges capable of what I feel is required accuracy.
By moving to centerfire and reloading, I am responsible for cartridge quality.
Rimfire has been relegated to range warm up and small game hunting.
I expect better results than rimfire is capable of.
Perhaps there's room for more education. If all rimfire ammo so hit and miss, it's a wonder that any shooters can ever score well in competition. Is there a method that successful shooters use for identifying ammo that shoots? It might involve more than buying random ammo and hoping against hope that it shoots better than last time.
That's part of the rimfire reality G,
trying to find a decent batch of 22lr.
Even with lot testing before purchasing,
the assembly line lottery is still in effect.
Some bricks are worth the money, some aren't.
Same lot number, same case, yet the quality isn't the same.
Not just on target, but verified by chrony numbers.
Ask the serious competitors how much they spend on ammunition
and how much time trying to find a good batch.
A local spends 60k a year on Tenex, just to practice with.
(I had asked what his ammo budget was)
He's always in contact with the factory test center, looking for the next good batch.
60k for practice ammo, so 8k for a rifle doesn't even register.
I don't have that level of commitment.
A few grand a year is all I'm willing to spend.
That's more than enough for reloading supplies to keep me happy,
along with an occasional replacement barrel.
trying to find a decent batch of 22lr.
Even with lot testing before purchasing,
the assembly line lottery is still in effect.
Some bricks are worth the money, some aren't.
Same lot number, same case, yet the quality isn't the same.
Not just on target, but verified by chrony numbers.
Ask the serious competitors how much they spend on ammunition
and how much time trying to find a good batch.
A local spends 60k a year on Tenex, just to practice with.
(I had asked what his ammo budget was)
He's always in contact with the factory test center, looking for the next good batch.
60k for practice ammo, so 8k for a rifle doesn't even register.
I don't have that level of commitment.
A few grand a year is all I'm willing to spend.
That's more than enough for reloading supplies to keep me happy,
along with an occasional replacement barrel.
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The rifle I was shooting at that match was an Anschutz 2013 and was using Lapua that was matched to my rifle. (Don't remember which one) It all comes down to the fundamentals and follow through being king. There was a time I was shooting in excess of 15,000 rounds of match ammo a year, shooting matches twice a month and training about 5 days a week. This was for several years prior to that match and had a big reduction in training and matches were only about three larger matches prior to Perry. There are only 5 fundaments to worry about other than building a good position...Aiming, Breathing, Hold Control, Trigger Control and Follow Through. I have heard all the stories about bullet travel time through the barrel and people thinking they could break the position while the bullet is traveling down the barrel...NOT TRUE. People are actually breaking the position before they complete the fire the shot. I was privy to tests the U.S. Olympic team and the NRA were conducting with some very wild equipment that monitored every aspect of the shooter, muscles, even eye tracking. Coaching and shooting I learned a lot. I also know if as a 60 plus year old shooter the equipment is only a small fraction with the equation, being in good physical shape and training the body is part along with the mental game.
Just my opinion and personal experience...yours may be different
Coming from the Smallbore International and Conventional type competition here are a couple of things I have learned:
Work with what you have. I have seen a lot of great rifles on the market and have a CZ 455 that has a lightweight factory barrel that was shortened and threaded for playing with that with some trash ammo seems to want to shoot some nice groups...hate the stock though.
Enough rambling, have a great evening and get out and shoot
- All 22 rimfire ammunition is not the same
- Ammunition from the same manufacturer and type will change between lot numbers
- Getting and testing 100 rounds of specific lot numbers in your rifle is mandatory
- Once you identify a great lot buy every box of that lot number you can afford, and I don't mean a couple of boxes or bricks...think cases
- You can have training ammunition that is a lesser ammunition but understand that you are working on position and fundamentals, accept the larger group as part of your training
- Get someone who is a real coach to work with you...I have several I work with and will be working with them to try and return
Work with what you have. I have seen a lot of great rifles on the market and have a CZ 455 that has a lightweight factory barrel that was shortened and threaded for playing with that with some trash ammo seems to want to shoot some nice groups...hate the stock though.
Enough rambling, have a great evening and get out and shoot
No arguments from me.
Your experience illustrates the herculean effort that it takes to be even moderately competitive in the shooting sports.
I am a middle of the road practical pistol competitor who routinely finishes in the top 3 at local matches and can finish in USPSA section and area championships between 75 and 85% of shooters capable of winning nationals.
The level of effort I can put into the sport pales in comparison to the elite, but at the same time is mind blowing to the average pistol shooter in America. I follow a regimented dry fire plan every week, train in live fire at least 3 times a month, and compete almost every weekend year round (we have some awesome indoor matches within an easy drive). The level of ammo that I expend on a training Saturday and Sunday match is more than what probably 85-90% of pistol owners in the country shoot in a whole year.
I built a .22r to save money shooting. I couldn't imagine spending that much on .22lr ammo in my lifetime
I shot IR50/50 for several years. Ammunition and wind was 80% of the game. IMO a rifle that will consistently hold 1moa at 100yds is a shooter. The man behind the rifle reading wind flags is a shooter as well.
It may not be a surprise to observe that few shooters have the resources to spend $60000 annually on .22LR ammo. That kind of outlay must be considered somewhat extra-ordinary.
Finding .22LR ammo that performs consistently well is often, if not usually, no easy task. The process at ammo testing facilities may not always allow shooters to see a sufficiently complete picture of how any lot performs. It may take more rounds and more time than are available.
Ammo from one lot may shoot well in the box or two that are tested. But it doesn't always mean that all ammo in that lot will perform similarly. In other words, some boxes from the same lot may perform better or worse than others. No doubt many shooters will be able to confirm that sometimes ammo that shot well one day didn't do so on another.
While ES and SD numbers don't necessarily predict how an ammo will perform on target, there can be significant variation within lots in those values as well.
Only sufficient testing can reveal just how consistent the ammo is in any particular lot. Sometimes the lot reveals its inconsistencies right out of the box, as it were. Sometimes more than a couple boxes are needed.
Finding .22LR ammo that performs consistently well is often, if not usually, no easy task. The process at ammo testing facilities may not always allow shooters to see a sufficiently complete picture of how any lot performs. It may take more rounds and more time than are available.
Ammo from one lot may shoot well in the box or two that are tested. But it doesn't always mean that all ammo in that lot will perform similarly. In other words, some boxes from the same lot may perform better or worse than others. No doubt many shooters will be able to confirm that sometimes ammo that shot well one day didn't do so on another.
While ES and SD numbers don't necessarily predict how an ammo will perform on target, there can be significant variation within lots in those values as well.
Only sufficient testing can reveal just how consistent the ammo is in any particular lot. Sometimes the lot reveals its inconsistencies right out of the box, as it were. Sometimes more than a couple boxes are needed.
If I was interested in competing, what would it take?
Practice, every day.
6 hours, 100 shots per hour, 600 shots, 12 boxes.
19 bucks a box, 228 bucks per session, plus tax and shipping, call it $240 a day.
Thats 7200 bucks a month, just for practice.
Nope, not gonna happen.
Practice, every day.
6 hours, 100 shots per hour, 600 shots, 12 boxes.
19 bucks a box, 228 bucks per session, plus tax and shipping, call it $240 a day.
Thats 7200 bucks a month, just for practice.
Nope, not gonna happen.
Where did you pull those numbers from?
Since you don't compete in any shooting sport, how would you know what it takes? Did you actually research this in any meaningful way?
Based on the timespan between the post I'm quoting and your one prior I'd say you just pulled that out of your butt.
In fact, you know how I know you're making thing up? Easy. Outside the Army Marksmanship Unit, there are no professionals in the shooting sports in the US. Top level shooters in all sports in this country (even the wealthiest ones) all have real jobs, real responsibilities, and whatever sponsorship they may have defrays only a fraction of the real costs and none of the time. I know this because I have met several in a couple of sports I've been involved in through the years and I have asked.
In my sport (practical pistol shooting) even the most elite shooters have to teach and train others to make enough money to live and train for the sport. They just don't have the resources to do nothing but train and practice for the game, like you seem to think.
Since the top level shooters in all sports have jobs and families they can't, by definition, spend six hours a day every day shooting and working on shooting.
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I'd say you are mostly right, especially when it comes to active style shooting comps.
I'd put a lot of money on most 22LR benchrest shooters and top competitors are retirees with high budgets and mostly what Justin is referring to.
I'm talking about the sports I have first hand experience with:
- USPSA
- IDPA
- NSCA Sporting Clays
- NRA Smallbore Rifle
- NRA Highpower Rifle
I know nothing about benchrest.
I've landed in USPSA after all the others mostly for the fact that it is the most accessible of all and, for me personally, the most fun.
- Ammo and equipment costs are significantly lower than any clay or rifle target shooting sport.
- It has the highest ratio of dry fire/live fire skills gain of any sport which keeps operating costs lower than any other sport and skill gains come the quickest.
- It has the best access to year-round competition.
- It has the best access to live fire facilities compared to anything else I've done.
- The cost of live fire practice is the lowest, not just due to ammo costs but also targets are literally free (not the case in clay target sports).
One last thing, people who have never played the shooting sports (or are just beginning) are often completely unaware of how hugely important the mental "game" is. Negative self-talk, dwelling on obstacles or mistakes, lack of confidence in oneself, and all sorts of poisonous thoughts will stop your progress cold and, in many instances, will prevent some from even starting.
How many times have we heard "I need to practice more before I'm ready to compete"? That's negative self talk that means "I will never do it"
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I don't either, but I read enough and believe I am mostly correct. I'd slit my throat before shooting ARA cards or groups at 50 yards all day.
Even Athletes here at the Olympic Training Center dont shoot that much. Not even close. And they arent paying for ammo.
Tee hee....I asked a question...What would it take?
6 hours a day of practice for me, to be competitive.
Then did the math.
I have zero natural talent with a firearm.
I would have to work at it to become anywhere near capable
of not embarrassing myself with an ARA or USBR target.
As for anything offhand, my results are laughable.
I send 200 shots plus each range trip, just for entertainment.
3 or 4 times a month, with evenings before the trip at the bench reloading.
The only event I can compete in is F-Class prone, or bench.
Compete, not win.
6 hours a day of practice for me, to be competitive.
Then did the math.
I have zero natural talent with a firearm.
I would have to work at it to become anywhere near capable
of not embarrassing myself with an ARA or USBR target.
As for anything offhand, my results are laughable.
I send 200 shots plus each range trip, just for entertainment.
3 or 4 times a month, with evenings before the trip at the bench reloading.
The only event I can compete in is F-Class prone, or bench.
Compete, not win.
I'm thinking it started with the $60,000/year in practice ammo that someone posted. That's a hell of a lot of .22lr shooting, even if it means dropping the overall round count by using the most expensive match ammo for practice.
Edit add: Lapua X-Act at $29.50/box, that would still be 101,694 rounds for the year, or 278.61 rounds per day...everyday...without any competitions mixed in.
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Oh, ok, where the fuck were you when I was faltering in advanced algebra my junior yr in HS? Lol
Anyone who can shoot 600 rds of ammo for groups at 50 yards in a day is a candidate for a lobotomy reversal, and one exciting mfr to be around.
Justin has a style of writing I have come to terms with, and today, enjoy the majority of it!
This thread has bounced around from "what is a good .22 group" to ".22 ammo sucks because it won't produce quarter-inch groups like a centerfire" to " competition requires tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of practice."
Not that anybody cares, but here's my over-morning-coffee $0.02...
"Enjoyment" is the driving factor for most of us. I'm certain that the young guns at PRS matches see me wheezing around pushing my gear in a converted jogging stroller and promptly dismiss me as a non-entity... certain because that's the way I looked at 90% of skeet shooters "in my day." [Grin] I'm still out there trying.
May your SDs be single-digit, your flyers be few, and your groups tiny. I'm outta coffee and it's time for lunch.
Not that anybody cares, but here's my over-morning-coffee $0.02...
- I don't expect my Vudoo or RimX .22s to shoot consistent sub-MOA at 150+ yards any more than I expect my 6.5CM to shoot sub-MOA at a mile. Sheesh, did any of us boomers ever expect to see .22LR competitions with 400+ yard targets? I'm astounded at how well the minuscule round is able to perform within its many limitations.
----- - Could Lapua, Eley, or RWS give us "better" ammo than X-Act, Ten-X, or R50? Maybe. Would they sell enough of it at the cost of production to make it worthwhile? Doubtful... but who knows... Seven years ago, "the industry" was telling the fledgling Vudoo principals they were nuts to think anyone would pay $1700 for a .22 barreled action...
----- - Regarding budget and commitment as limiting factors in competition performance: we all know, or should know, that innate ability trumps budget and commitment. I shot NSSA skeet for decades before I started rifle, and I had the privilege of shooting with multiple world champions. I literally watched one of them grow up on a skeet field - and he was running 100-straights before his voice changed.
On the other hand, I knew a dedicated guy who shot 200 targets or more a week for years and NEVER ran 100 straight, not once. He competed out of love of the game.
If unlimited budget and deep commitment are all it takes to perform at world-class level, then any rich kid with unlimited time should be able to shoot at Olympic levels, right?
----- - Speaking of which... I met one Olympic skeet shooter (Olympic skeet is like NSSA skeet as LeMans is like SCCA club races - WAY!!! more difficult). He shot 500 targets a week in practice in the months leading to Olympic trials and, as Hoser said, he didn't pay for his ammo or targets.
"Enjoyment" is the driving factor for most of us. I'm certain that the young guns at PRS matches see me wheezing around pushing my gear in a converted jogging stroller and promptly dismiss me as a non-entity... certain because that's the way I looked at 90% of skeet shooters "in my day." [Grin] I'm still out there trying.
May your SDs be single-digit, your flyers be few, and your groups tiny. I'm outta coffee and it's time for lunch.
I think we need a Reddit-style bot for the Rimfire forum. Any time it hears something along the lines of, “rimfire ammo is crap!” or inconsistent, or +MOA, or whatever it would autogenerate this reply:
“Pardner, we know already! Quit yer bellyaching!” followed by a link to some FAQ.
“Pardner, we know already! Quit yer bellyaching!” followed by a link to some FAQ.
Can we get one that auto replies
when someone claims consistent sub-moa all day long?
What? Just following the concept through to it's logical conclusion.
Crud, if that happened I'd have no reason to post.
when someone claims consistent sub-moa all day long?
What? Just following the concept through to it's logical conclusion.
Crud, if that happened I'd have no reason to post.
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You don't know what it takes to be competitive until you actually compete.
So to find out for sure if you're guessing or not, let me ask three questions:
- Which recognized shooting sport do you participate in? Recognized means it has a national or international organization and a uniform set of rules.
- How long have you been at it?
- Where do you stand in the sport's ranking or classification system?
I don't believe in innate ability as far as shooting goes. When people assign innate ability to someone they're usually not aware of everything that person does to push themselves.
Elements like superior coaching, self discipline, self analysis, and mental management are hidden from view to almost everyone and provide a huge advantage.
Elements like superior coaching, self discipline, self analysis, and mental management are hidden from view to almost everyone and provide a huge advantage.
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So in all your life experience, you’ll still say that you’ve NEVER seen someone with natural abilities? You’ve never just seen a kid pick a firearm up and be better than average with no real practice or professional instruction
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Your not looking hard/close enough.
308, I'll be happy to answer y'er questions.
Competition? 223 F-Class, local club rules.
Adjusted for age and physical disabilities.
Nationally recognized? Nope.
Ranking? Middle of the competitors.
Plenty better, plenty worse.
Just another amateur behind the trigger.
50 plus years picking off squirrels and rabbits.
14 years learning what works and what doesn't off the bench.
4 years of 100 and 200 yard testing of rimfire
to prove/disprove what actually occurs,
when all 50 shots are shown on the target,
along with chrony numbers and conditions.
I'm a technician, not someone with actual talent/skill.
The less contact I have with a rifle, the better the results.
That's why F-Class and benchrest work for me.
Offhand or action shooting kick my butt.
Competition? 223 F-Class, local club rules.
Adjusted for age and physical disabilities.
Nationally recognized? Nope.
Ranking? Middle of the competitors.
Plenty better, plenty worse.
Just another amateur behind the trigger.
50 plus years picking off squirrels and rabbits.
14 years learning what works and what doesn't off the bench.
4 years of 100 and 200 yard testing of rimfire
to prove/disprove what actually occurs,
when all 50 shots are shown on the target,
along with chrony numbers and conditions.
I'm a technician, not someone with actual talent/skill.
The less contact I have with a rifle, the better the results.
That's why F-Class and benchrest work for me.
Offhand or action shooting kick my butt.
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So in other words zero actual experience
None of this is relevant to understanding what it takes to be a competitor.
Just say you don't have any interest in being a shooting competitor. That's perfectly fine.
You don't need to make up BS stories about "what it takes" to justify your position.
That's all I'm saying.
OK This is actually funny and I really hope there is a lot of people laughing at how this has gone. When ever you put two people together on a computer talking about something or on a range shooting...competition will exist.
What it takes to make a great competitor is similar but not the same as making a shooter. I don't know Hoser but if they are a part of the National Team training at Colorado Springs you have it right. It's not the amount of shots fired but the quality of the practice. I have dryfired many more rounds that I have ever shot. Most people don't dryfire because there is no return from their point of view. I have never fired 600 rounds in a day of training. I may have pulled the trigger 600 times in a day when I was dealing with a problem...but there comes a point of no returns on your efforts.
Working with a Coach...a real shooting Coach is invaluable. I have had the pleasure of being coached by former Olympic Medalists, National Team Coaches, members of the AMU and other shooters. In return I have coached for years and had several of these people go on to college and Olympic tryouts. The moral of that long story is find a coach.
There is no such thing as a natural. There are some people who understand and have better control of their body...athletic ability, better mental control, maturity...all these contribute to what some people call naturals. There is nothing natural about firing a rifle, pistol or shotgun.
I have been listening to a podcast by a shooter who appears to have no ego to bruise and is very honest about what he has seen and has been trying. Last I understood he has little use for smallbore but is willing to try it. His activity is in the PRS, NRL type shooting and power to him. Chris Way if you read this thank you for what you do and actually motivating me to return to this crazy game.
Please remember you can not buy your way to the champions circle, practice, dedication, open mind and just not willing to give up will take you further than any fancy rifle or ammunition will. Buy that stuff when your performance demands...not just because it's cool or what someone else uses who is at the top.
Otherwise you will need to start buying scopes with 1/8 minute adjustments and iron sights with 15th minute clicks just to stay up with me.
What it takes to make a great competitor is similar but not the same as making a shooter. I don't know Hoser but if they are a part of the National Team training at Colorado Springs you have it right. It's not the amount of shots fired but the quality of the practice. I have dryfired many more rounds that I have ever shot. Most people don't dryfire because there is no return from their point of view. I have never fired 600 rounds in a day of training. I may have pulled the trigger 600 times in a day when I was dealing with a problem...but there comes a point of no returns on your efforts.
Working with a Coach...a real shooting Coach is invaluable. I have had the pleasure of being coached by former Olympic Medalists, National Team Coaches, members of the AMU and other shooters. In return I have coached for years and had several of these people go on to college and Olympic tryouts. The moral of that long story is find a coach.
There is no such thing as a natural. There are some people who understand and have better control of their body...athletic ability, better mental control, maturity...all these contribute to what some people call naturals. There is nothing natural about firing a rifle, pistol or shotgun.
I have been listening to a podcast by a shooter who appears to have no ego to bruise and is very honest about what he has seen and has been trying. Last I understood he has little use for smallbore but is willing to try it. His activity is in the PRS, NRL type shooting and power to him. Chris Way if you read this thank you for what you do and actually motivating me to return to this crazy game.
Please remember you can not buy your way to the champions circle, practice, dedication, open mind and just not willing to give up will take you further than any fancy rifle or ammunition will. Buy that stuff when your performance demands...not just because it's cool or what someone else uses who is at the top.
Otherwise you will need to start buying scopes with 1/8 minute adjustments and iron sights with 15th minute clicks just to stay up with me.
Natural ability separates the totally useless from the worthless.
In any competitive environment natural ability is worthless as everyone “has it”.
The true winners and champions are dedicated and disciplined far beyond most people’s understanding.
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Doesn’t mean they don’t have some natural ability to start with
- Nov 3, 2010
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Rule #1 of surviving on Sniper's Hide is to NEVER directly engage with 308Pirate. He will drag you down to his level of ineptitude and beat you with experience every time.
You have to fight him at an oblique angle, sort of like you have enraged midgets attacking you on each flank, and you have hot sauce in your eyes. You know what you have to do, but its all unfolds in a violent blur.
You have to fight him at an oblique angle, sort of like you have enraged midgets attacking you on each flank, and you have hot sauce in your eyes. You know what you have to do, but its all unfolds in a violent blur.
Here is my way of dealing with internet drama with keyboard kommandos. Works a treat.
"A quarrel is quickly settled when deserted by one party; there is no battle unless there be two."
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca
IMO, 5-shots sub-MOA constitutes "pretty good" for a rimfire .22LR, given the inconsistency in rimfire ammo production.
Christensen Arms Ranger 22 with cheap bulk CCI Standard Velocity ammo...
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