Rifle Scopes whats wrong with leupold?

[jackh]

is it just me or does leupold have a bad rep around here? i know theyre a leader in hunting optics and ive heard they were slow to get on the ball with tactical stuff, but does that make their products bad? do the scopes not hold up to abuse? for the price point, are there better options out there-scopes with better glass, more bells and whistles etc for the same or similar price?

i have pmed a few members about their bad attitudes about leupold to try and figure out why the feel the way they do. one said he just preferred to spend his money on absolutely the best he can buy, so he has switched to S&B. another said he dropped his scope, sent it in for repairs, they noticed that it was damage that he caused and wouldn't cover it. at first i thought, ya thats only fair, i dont expect a car dealership to cover damages to my truck if i get in a wreck while its under warranty. he stated that leupold had said over the phone they had a "fix it no matter what" type of warranty, yet when he mailed the scope in they wanted to charge basically the price of a new scope to repair his. i am not doubting is reputability, but only he knows if this is true or not.

could other people with bad attitudes towards leupold chime in and explain why they feel the way they do? all my buddies swear by them on their hunting scopes. the companies been around for a long time and in my opinion makes quality stuff. i dont have experience with their mark4 line or their customer service though.

 

[dtask]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

Try THIS and then refer to the search function for plenty more like it.

 

[stefan73]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I am slightly partial to Leupold since I have had and abused their optics for a long, long time. I know there is better, USO, S&B but I have spent a large portion of my Iraq saving fund on toys and can't justify the extra money at the moment.

They make good optics which are very clear! I have one LEupold spotting scope 20-40 (Mildot), one MK4 MRT 1.5-5 illum, M3A, MK4 LRT 3.5-10X40 Mil Dot illum, MK4 ERT 6.5-20X50 mil/mil FFP and an old VX-II 3-9.

I also own a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X56 mlr/mil with zero stop.

The NXS rests on my Serbu BFG-50 because it has been proven to handle a .50 BMG round without issues.

 

[Asm1]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

They have slacked on quality with canted reticule that they feel are still in spec and Not so perfect tracking in recent years.
All I have sent back have been fixed,I had to send one back 3 times,But they did fix it in the end..


I have had over 25 Leupold tactical scopes and 3 of that amount had issue,I can say that's really good odds because I could ruffle some feathers of the Big name kool aid drinkers that drink it no matter if its piss.

All scope companies have some issue at some time its life..

No matter the brand check it for function and drill it with rounds and use and prove it with time,then it will earn the trust and no name or sugar coat will influence your belief about it..

 

[olympian]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

My problems with the Leupold products I have owned include:
1) prices have significantly increased but quality does not seem to have done the same
2) most of my Leupolds track poorly in repeatablility and value
3) some of my Leupolds have reticles that stick when you adjust them
4) Nikons are just as good or better
5) I once sent in a Gold Ring spotting scope with a minor problem and they made no attempt to repair it, instead they sent me a new model spotting scope that was not as good as the old one
6) the clarity is poor on many of them in all but very high light conditions
7) the vertical adjustment often runs out but you can continue to turn the knob
8) I hate that I could not get mil adjustments on a mildot scope.

Despite the above, I still have several of their products and will continue to do so. In my opinion, they made the best pistol scopes, have a good line of basic hunting scopes, make good rimfire hunting scopes, many of their scope are quite good for the weight, and the 6.5-20x 40mm EFR with a target dot is one of the best all-around rifle scopes ever made.

For a lot of shooting games, they make great products, but their products were not designed to meet the particular demands of many tactical shooters (and others) hence the reputation of Leupold products is not stellar here.

 

[popeye089]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I truely believe that many here just jump on the band wagon to make it seem that they know as much or as experienced as many experts on this site. Many guys here know they're products. With that being said, yes I truely believe they have had some quality issues. Why because I've seen canted reticles. As far a durability, they have always taken what I could dish out and believe me, it has been more than walking from my house to my car and then to my range position. As far as price point? Yes their prices have gone up into S&B and Hensoldt Land. Iunderstand that having Horus reticles as an option adds 500 but if you factor that out your still in USO land. For that much money, you're QC better be on the ball. Now for being behind the curve? At one time they were an industry leader with LE/Military contracts. Yes they fell behind but just because a company doesn't offer options you want doesn't deserve a tirade. If I don't like a restaurant's menu I don't blog about it. All that being said, until they fix certain Qc problems, They're lower to mid Mark4s with less magnification & magnification range and spotting scopes are good for me but as far as their higher end Mark4s, i truely believe your money is well spent on other brands

 

[jeo556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

There are good reasons why Leupold isn't too highly regarded around here and it isn't bandwagon or fan boy shit. I read a ton before I purchased my first "tacticool" scope and most of what I read did not inspire me to put my money into a Leupold scope. What ever you do just research a ton and decide for yourself based on your needs, wants, and price range. Good luck

 

[snipedogg]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I am currently in the hunt for a new Scope for a new build. I have been behind some awesome Leupolds but they weren't the newer models. A guy I shoot with in Comps has a Leupold that he has had for over 20 years and has never been sent in. I would most definitely snag an older model but I would be hesitant with buying a newer one.

If you could get one that was made in USA, you won't be disappointed, but I couldn't say the same about their more recent scopes.

 

[vman]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

They work for some and probably do for the most part, however their track record over the past few years seems to be riddled with stories of average quality.

The main point is that there are many players in the scope market that offer products with better features, reliability and competative pricing.

In a market with fierce competition in order to stay ahead of the game you need to stay on top of market conditions and push quality products.

In a nut shell leupold appear to have fallen behind in this regard and other brands have come out on top, or at least in the eyes of those who actually research products before they hand over their cash.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

if you are looking for a new scope with tactical features
great warranty , superior glass, great variable power range
a reticle that is usable on ANY target you place it over NOT just paper or white/painted steel

and all that for street price of $1200ish AND a retail of
$1600ish , with rings

go to libertyoptics.com and get a IOR valdada 3-18x42mm HIDE edition gen4 SCOPE

european glass and half the price of a Schmidt and bender and every bit as good; in fact superior in a few ways

one big one, is the IOR reticle is usable at ALL power ranges
and when laid over any color'd target it does not get LOST

they are the darling of the optic world , IMHO

 

[M Parkini]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

My thoughts echo what has been said above. I have 4 Leupold's 3 on hunting rifles-1 on a tactical 300wm and I too am always amazed when I look through my Nikon scopes at how much more clear they appear. That said I just bought another Leupold the other day knowing that everything everyone here has said is the truth about Leupold these days.I have just never had an issue with one of their scopes and the animals I've killed didn't know the difference between the VXII/VXIII I used to shoot them with. Those scopes work just fine for that. Elk,moose, mule deer, cantalopes, and various other critters aren't shooting back at me.

Scopes/Rifles-they are just tools.My scopes match and balance my rifles. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to put a $3,000.00 scope on an $1,000 rifle-or maybe more common-a $500.00 scope on a $3,000.00 rifle but I think when your-life like many here on the Hide-depends upon your tools you might opt for the best quality you possibly can. A $3000.00+ scope on a $3000.00+ rifle is a pretty good idea. Can you buy a better scope than a Leupold for that? I believe you can.

Good luck with your choice

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

Nothing, but you would think it if all you read was this forum, that's for sure.

 

[Crook79]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I'm curious to know if the new M5 FFP Mark 4's are of improved quality and are indeed USA made...I can get the 6.5-20x50 for around $1300 but threads like this make me very uneasy about Leupold.

 

[jackh]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

believe me people, i am doing my research. im not handing over $1500 or so for a scope unless im dead certain its going to fit my needs and is the best i can buy with that money.

does anyone have stories about leupolds bad QC or CS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you are looking for a new scope with tactical features
great warranty , superior glass, great variable power range
a reticle that is usable on ANY target you place it over NOT just paper or white/painted steel

and all that for street price of $1200ish AND a retail of
$1600ish , with rings

go to libertyoptics.com and get a IOR valdada 3-18x42mm HIDE edition gen4 SCOPE

european glass and half the price of a Schmidt and bender and every bit as good; in fact superior in a few ways

one big one, is the IOR reticle is usable at ALL power ranges
and when laid over any color'd target it does not get LOST

they are the darling of the optic world , IMHO
</div></div>

yes ive been very tempted by this one before. ive just read a few reports of iffy internals in that scope. the scope can have the best glass in the world, but if it doesn't perform well its not worth a shit. idk if those reports were on older models or not, i have never read anything bad about the newer gen IV's.

 

[CSTactical]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious to know if the new M5 FFP Mark 4's are of improved quality and are indeed USA made...I can get the 6.5-20x50 for around $1300 but threads like this make me very uneasy about Leupold. </div></div>

Leupold has had some issues in the past for which they are still paying for (as you can see). As far as the new M5 series, myself and Mike thinks it's one of the best values on the market for an FFP MIL/MIL scope at this price. For more info go to this thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1840837#Post1840837

You also want to consider the volume of scopes Leupold has sold over the years. When you sell such a large volume you will have more scopes that don't come out right but their percentages are comparable to other brands.

Lastly, Leupold hasn't had the best CS when it comes to Leupold scopes that have had modifications done to them by third parties. If you don't plan on having any modifications done to the scope after you buy it, Leupold should take care of any issues.

Thanks,

Mason @ CST

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious to know if the new M5 FFP Mark 4's are of improved quality and are indeed USA made...I can get the 6.5-20x50 for around $1300 but threads like this make me very uneasy about Leupold. </div></div>

All Leupold scopes are made in the US.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

Every Leupold Ive had has worked fine. I used a 4.5-14 on my duty rifle for years with no issues. I like em fine.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

My leupolds are no longer made. I had an issue with one and it was quickly resolved a few years ago.

I dont fix whats not broken so I still have them. Leupold was THE tactical scope back when many other brands had no clue what Mildot was. Some like a Caddilac SUV, some will only buy one with the gold trim package, some like the chevy and use the saved money elsewhere.

For most the difference in perceived qualities will never play out. Most shoot under optimum conditions- rain, snow, and low light are avoided.

Since Leupold churns the product lines more often than a Fund Manager I have lost track of what scope is equal to the others out there. I agree with many posters that the prices have gone up but the quality seems to have stayed same as my much older scopes, all PR bochures aside.

If I was to replace any Leupold I have now I would lean toward the Trijicon accupoint. I got to run one side by side my Leupold and was very impressed.

For what leupold wants for their Tactical series the trijicon seems a far better bargain.

But personal preference is the biggest variable in this equation.

 

[jeo556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All Leupold scopes are made in the US.</div></div>

This statement has yet to be confirmed. There is another thread that discusses where Leupolds are made, lets not side track this discussion.

Again, there really isn't anything wrong with Leupold. but if you have $1500 to spend and you buy a Leupold rather than say a nightforce, you obviously haven't read enough here on the hide. Refer to this page for a comparison of some higher end optics including leupold's top of the line......they just don't match up.

For instance, a good buddy of mine who just got home from A-stan had a Leupold Mk4 M3 that he wanted to sell. After looking through it a bunch, and playing with the turrets, I was not convinced that it was a $1500 scope. I have since purchased a SS 10x HD for half that price which has similiar, if not a little better, glass and IMHO much better turrets. Does that mean that the Leupold won't work.......No, but why spend twice as much for a similiar scope? So your pap knows what kind of scope you have? I'll take the cheaper scope with the same or better features.

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but if you have $1500 to spend and you buy a Leupold rather than say a nightforce, you obviously haven't read enough here on the hide.</div></div>

Exactly my point.

 

[CSTactical]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, there really isn't anything wrong with Leupold. but if you have $1500 to spend and you buy a Leupold rather than say a nightforce, you obviously haven't read enough here on the hide. Refer to this page for a comparison of some higher end optics including leupold's top of the line......they just don't match up.</div></div>

If you wanted a second focal plane scope in the $1500-$2K price range, Nightforce would be a great way to go. If you wanted an FFP MIL/MIL in the same price range, the Leupold M5 would be a good way to go. The Nightforce FFP is almost $2300. We feel the M5 TMR reticle (Leupold) has better reticle line quality compared to the Nightforce FFP scope.

Thanks,

Mason @ CST

 

[Crook79]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but if you have $1500 to spend and you buy a Leupold rather than say a nightforce, you obviously haven't read enough here on the hide.</div></div>

Exactly my point. </div></div>

The Nightforce I would be comparing the M5 to would be the F1 which is $2300. Are you saying you would rather have a standard Nightforce SFP at $1500 vs the discounted price I could get the M5(which is FFP) for?....By the way I do love Nightforce but I am not made of money and need to get as much out of my dollar as I can. Crossing the $1500 mark for me on an optic to go on a factory remington with upgraded stock is out of the question for me.

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but if you have $1500 to spend and you buy a Leupold rather than say a nightforce, you obviously haven't read enough here on the hide.</div></div>

Exactly my point. </div></div>

The Nightforce I would be comparing the M5 to would be the F1 which is $2300. Are you saying you would rather have a standard Nightforce SFP at $1500 vs the discounted price I could get the M5(which is FFP) for?....By the way I do love Nightforce but I am not made of money and need to get as much out of my dollar as I can. Crossing the $1500 mark for me on an optic to go on a factory remington with upgraded stock is out of the question for me. </div></div>

If you were quoting me, I think you missed what I was saying. My point is that if all you do is read the hide then you would think Leupold scopes might as well be Barskas for how they are talked about around here.

 

[Crook79]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

Sorry...got my quotes mixed up...I was trying to quote the quote you quoted....Damn now I'm more confused Lol

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoreSnake08</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry...got my quotes mixed up...I was trying to quote the quote you quoted....Damn now I'm more confused Lol </div></div>

Hehe, gotcha. My head is spinning..

 

[banshee sws]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

some sound advice already given

and for whatever reason , the made in america issue ONLY comes up for Leupold

i have six Leupold's and one IOR , gen 3 hide edition

Leupold is making scopes here , that is for sure - all of them, no but a lot of them are made in the USA

but schmidt benders are foreign made
hensoldt are too
night force is iffy, parts made elsewhere and assembled in USA last time i heard
IOR foreign
vortex foreign
march foriegn
bushnell foreign

US optics is made in the USA

why people only bust leupold's chops for having some scopes made overseas i will never know but oh well

there are a lot of factors that get placed in to the decision to buy a scope -

many times it has nothing to do with, is the scope what a person needs but more is this what will look best, show off my ability to spend money, or in the HARLEY circles it's called ROLEX HARLEY owners they own a Harley like they do a watch, it's not a lifestyle

most 'tactical' scopes are over powered, over priced, and don't feature what is 'needed' to get the job done

in fact alot of them are 'sexed up' bench rest scopes

and couple that with a highly competitive market , it's confusing to consumers, who many times have NO objective experiences to use in buying a scope

which is why this topic comes up more and more on the Hide

a helpful site is www.opticsthoughts.com

if i were shopping a new scope i would want the following

1. front focal plane
2. mil/mil or moa/moa scope (matching reticle to adjustment, no conversions)
3. solid warranty
4. low to high variable power range( in the 5-6 times range, ie., 3-18 or 2-10 or 1-10 or 3-15 etc.,)
5. reticle that is usable at all power ranges , not just the high one
6. reticle marks that make sense and easily divide the target
7. glass that is clear, fuzz free and shows true color(coatings)
8. accurate, true (1/10th mil or 1 moa) repeatable adjustments, every time
9. generous eye relief
10. less than $2000
11. if i was LE or mil than illuminated
12. high speed turrets to get me out to 1000 and back in one turn


just my thoughts

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some sound advice already given

and for whatever reason , the made in america issue ONLY comes up for Leupold

i have six Leupold's and one IOR , gen 3 hide edition

Leupold is making scopes here , that is for sure - all of them, no but a lot of them are made in the USA

but schmidt benders are foreign made
hensoldt are too
night force is iffy, parts made elsewhere and assembled in USA last time i heard
IOR foreign
vortex foreign
march foriegn
bushnell foreign

US optics is made in the USA

why people only bust leupold's chops for having some scopes made overseas i will never know but oh well

there are a lot of factors that get placed in to the decision to buy a scope -

many times it has nothing to do with, is the scope what a person needs but more is this what will look best, show off my ability to spend money, or in the HARLEY circles it's called ROLEX HARLEY owners they own a Harley like they do a watch, it's not a lifestyle

most 'tactical' scopes are over powered, over priced, and don't feature what is 'needed' to get the job done

in fact alot of them are 'sexed up' bench rest scopes

and couple that with a highly competitive market , it's confusing to consumers, who many times have NO objective experiences to use in buying a scope

which is why this topic comes up more and more on the Hide

a helpful site is www.opticsthoughts.com

if i were shopping a new scope i would want the following

1. front focal plane
2. mil/mil or moa/moa scope (matching reticle to adjustment, no conversions)
3. solid warranty
4. low to high variable power range( in the 5-6 times range, ie., 3-18 or 2-10 or 1-10 or 3-15 etc.,)
5. reticle that is usable at all power ranges , not just the high one
6. reticle marks that make sense and easily divide the target
7. glass that is clear, fuzz free and shows true color(coatings)
8. accurate, true (1/10th mil or 1 moa) repeatable adjustments, every time
9. generous eye relief
10. less than $2000
11. if i was LE or mil than illuminated
12. high speed turrets to get me out to 1000 and back in one turn


just my thoughts


</div></div>

A lot of the Nightforces are made in Japan, some in the US. Maybe the SFPs in Japan and the F1s in the US, can't remember exactly. Anyway, will you hear anyone on here harp on them for that? Absolutely not. But you'll hear them rip Leupold on <span style="font-style: italic">allegations</span> that some of their scopes might be made outside the US. Fanboyism at its finest.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think it's even relevant where a scope is made, assembled, parts of it are made, whatever. It's the quality alone that should be judged.

 

[jeo556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

No one is comparing Leupolds to Barkas, I didn't even say that there was anything wrong with them. I just thought that for the money I wasn't completely impressed.

The fixed 10x Mk4s go for around $1500, my fixed 10x SS HD goes for $799. I just don't think that the leupold is a better scope, let alone two times better.

As far as Leupold being the only manufacturer that gets heat about being made in USA. I really think that comes from the Leupy supporters using the "made in usa" part of their justification.

As far as FFP goes, yes the Leupy M5's have a lot of features for the money and I'm sure that the guys at CS Tactical know a lot more than me about scopes. If they say that the Leupy M5's are good glass for the money I'm sure that they are. Maybe(hopefully), leupold has listened to some of the complaints and upped their game with the M5's, only time will tell.

 

[samnev]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

My new NightForce 5.5-22X50 with HST &ZS is made in Japan which supprised me.

 

[BCP]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I'm a Leupold hater I guess, you can pm me and try to fix me if you want to. I have lots of their hunting scopes and a mark ar/mark 4 so I use their stuff but don't see what the big deal is, to me it looks like old technology that is overpriced and riding on brand name alone.

If you want a FFP and buy a leupold for 1500$ you need to have your head examined. Used Razor HD's show up regularly for 1600$ on samplelist and that is infinitely more scope. Leupold is only worth it with a discount like they give to leo, mil, etc.

 

[JAAM12]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

This is a interesting post. I have just bougth 3 luepolds, and on IOR. Before I got them, I read a ton off info on this forum. I am new to the this type of shooting. I have hunted deer and elk along with pdogs and coyotes. Love shooting long range. I am planning to shoot out to a 1000y. But I needed to upgrade my scopes, however, after reading the post here, I was not sure about the Mark 4 quality. So contact Mike at CS and Scott at LO to ask questions about the many options of tactical scopes. I needed other input to help make my decision. They provided info on what feature would be good for each type of scope. So I got the new FFP 6-20 M5 Leupold for a new custom build (GAP rebarrel 308), 2 Mark 4 4.5-16 targets scopes for 2 cooper 21 223, and IOR 16x for a remington 5R. They seem to be on the same quality level. I got a great deal on all 4 scopes. I am happy with the choices. Additonal, I am also plannig on getting a new sightron MOA/MOA or Mil/Mil 6-24 for a 6.5 grendal AR. I like getting USA products if a can.

Regards, John

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a Leupold hater I guess, you can pm me and try to fix me if you want to. I have lots of their hunting scopes and a mark ar/mark 4 so I use their stuff but don't see what the big deal is, to me it looks like old technology that is overpriced and riding on brand name alone.

If you want a FFP and buy a leupold for 1500$ you need to have your head examined. Used Razor HD's show up regularly for 1600$ on samplelist and that is infinitely more scope. Leupold is only worth it with a discount like they give to leo, mil, etc. </div></div>

A Vortex Razor is infinitely more scope than a Leupold Mark 4? Yeah, you are a hater.

 

[glock24]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

For those of you who haven't seen ILYA's latest scope review, he compares a Leupold FFP with a large number of other brands. I thought the author was about as objective as possible in his review. That said, the Leupy had a canted reticle, crappy glass, and by far the most change in eye relief throughout the scope's magnification range.

Just sayin . . .

http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?opti...ws&Itemid=4


An excerpt from ILYA's report below hightlights the real issue at hand in this thread;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After some thought, I decided to add a Leupold to the mix as well, since it has a lot of traction with law enforcement and military (an interesting tidbit is that I ran into a former Army ranger at the range while testing these scopes. He was thoroughly unimpressed when I showed him Hensoldt, S&B and others. All he ever shot in the military were Leupolds and he was totally convinced that nothing else even comes close). </div></div>
In this industry, ego and emotion seem to trump education . . .



More excerpts;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Optically, the weakest scope of the bunch was the Leupold, which should come as no surprise considering the price differences between different models. This particular Leupold model retails for more than $2k, but that is largely due to the surcharge that comes with a Horus reticle. Without it, the ER/T would run about $1600, which is not cheap, but still makes it the least expensive scope out of this bunch with a notable exception of the fixed power S.S.HD. At 10x, S.S.HD showed me more detail than Leupold, but then again this is an easier scope to build. Leupold had a reasonably contrasty image, and the resolution was adequate as well. The most obvious image artefact was the chromatic aberration. It was readily apparent above 10x or so and I saw fringes with two different colors. That usually means that the objective lens system needs work. Both lateral and longitudinal chromatic aberration were present, although the lateral type was more apparent. Color accuracy was quite neutral and overall the image was clean and clear. Flare seemed to be fairly well suppressed as well.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moving on to the remaining scopes, there were no surprises. Between IOR, Leupold, Nightforce and S.S.HD, IOR was easily the better low light scope. It was also better than USO owing to better flare suppression. With all scopes set at 10x, S.S.HD held its own pretty well and outperformed both Leupold and Nightforce until it got sufficiently dark for its exit pupil to become the limiting factor. Between, Leupold and Nightforce, low light performance was fairly close, with Nightforce edging the Leupold out by a little bit. The IOR, was clearly the best one of the sub-$2300 crowd. I spent a couple more sessions doing low light testing and side by side with the likes of Premier and the IOR looked almost as good. It had a touch more flare, but no major low light artefacts to speak of. It was not particularly effected by off-axis light sources, but a sunshade did help.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honestly, in this crowd, Leupold was a bit overmatched. It is a nice enough scope in its own right and using was a breeze, except for the canted reticle. In a scope like this, equipped with a Horus reticle ($500+ on top of the regular price) I would likely set it up to use the reticle. Honestly, I would probably like it more if instead of those tall tactical turrets, it had some sort of unobtrusive low profile knobs. This was the first time I got really practice with a Horus reticle and I like the concept. It takes a little practice to get used to the fine grid, but once you put in the time, it is pretty fast and accurate. With the Horus H27 reticle in place, I think tall knobs are superfluous. The scope itself is quite compact and makes a good match on an AR platform:</div></div>

 

[jeo556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you who haven't seen ILYA's latest scope review, he compares a Leupold FFP with a large number of other brands. I thought the author was about as objective as possible in his review. That said, the Leupy had a canted reticle, crappy glass, and by far the most change in eye relief throughout the scope's magnification range.

Just sayin . . .

http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php?opti...ws&Itemid=4


An excerpt from ILYA's report below hightlights the real issue at hand in this thread;
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After some thought, I decided to add a Leupold to the mix as well, since it has a lot of traction with law enforcement and military (an interesting tidbit is that I ran into a former Army ranger at the range while testing these scope. He was thoroughly unimpressed when I showed him Hensoldt, S&B and others. All he ever shot in the military were Leupolds and he was totally convinced that nothing else even comes close). </div></div>
In this industry, ego and emotion seem to trump education . . .



More excerpts;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Optically, the weakest scope of the bunch was the Leupold, which should come as no surprise considering the price differences between different models. This particular Leupold model retails for more than $2k, but that is largely due to the surcharge that comes with a Horus reticle. Without it, the ER/T would run about $1600, which is not cheap, but still makes it the least expensive scope out of this bunch with a notable exception of the fixed power S.S.HD. At 10x, S.S.HD showed me more detail than Leupold, but then again this is an easier scope to build. Leupold had a reasonably contrasty image, and the resolution was adequate as well. The most obvious image artefact was the chromatic aberration. It was readily apparent above 10x or so and I saw fringes with two different colors. That usually means that the objective lens system needs work. Both lateral and longitudinal chromatic aberration were present, although the lateral type was more apparent. Color accuracy was quite neutral and overall the image was clean and clear. Flare seemed to be fairly well suppressed as well.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Moving on to the remaining scopes, there were no surprises. Between IOR, Leupold, Nightforce and S.S.HD, IOR was easily the better low light scope. It was also better than USO owing to better flare suppression. With all scopes set at 10x, S.S.HD held its own pretty well and outperformed both Leupold and Nightforce until it got sufficiently dark for its exit pupil to become the limiting factor. Between, Leupold and Nightforce, low light performance was fairly close, with Nightforce edging the Leupold out by a little bit. The IOR, was clearly the best one of the sub-$2300 crowd. I spent a couple more sessions doing low light testing and side by side with the likes of Premier and the IOR looked almost as good. It had a touch more flare, but no major low light artefacts to speak of. It was not particularly effected by off-axis light sources, but a sunshade did help.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honestly, in this crowd, Leupold was a bit overmatched. It is a nice enough scope in its own right and using was a breeze, except for the canted reticle. In a scope like this, equipped with a Horus reticle ($500+ on top of the regular price) I would likely set it up to use the reticle. Honestly, I would probably like it more if instead of those tall tactical turrets, it had some sort of unobtrusive low profile knobs. This was the first time I got really practice with a Horus reticle and I like the concept. It takes a little practice to get used to the fine grid, but once you put in the time, it is pretty fast and accurate. With the Horus H27 reticle in place, I think tall knobs are superfluous. The scope itself is quite compact and makes a good match on an AR platform:</div></div> </div></div>

You must be a hater.

 

[glock24]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You must be a hater.

</div></div>

I'm certainly leaning that way more and more . . .

 

[BCP]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A Vortex Razor is infinitely more scope than a Leupold Mark 4? Yeah, you are a hater. </div></div>

Better glass, better knobs w/zero stop, lots of internal adjustment, better reticles, they're just plain better. Why some people insist on buying new & paying retail when the used market is so hot is beyond me, especially since all the used big-name scopes come with 100% warranties.

 

[vprtoad]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I feel the new M5 mil/mil FFP is a one of the best value's on the market. I did a tracking test on mine and it work's fantastic

wish I could post some pics

Nothing wrong with lupy's YMMV of course

 

[leadbullet]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

3-5 years ago i had three leupold craping out on me, neither would track repeatedly and optics would fade out in the rain. While shooting, with a friend who had an IOR, at 1000yds, it started drizling from 1000 to about 750 I lost all color and definition in my leupy, everything faded to grey, trees, dirt, target etc, my buddy IOR had no problem whatsoever. next day that leupy was traded and I bought my first IOR
I haven't looked back and never will, I amot a hater, just very very disapointed.
cheers,

 

[highridge1]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

They simply aren't tacticool enough for the internet SHTF soldiers.

 

[McKinneyMike]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

If some of you die hard fans would simply listen to the issues being discussed rather than sticking your heads in the sand and demand that Leupold correct their course, what incentive do they have to change? I don't think that anyone is bashing them as "junk", just that in todays market, they are not keeping pace overall and they have allowed their once great track record for producing incredibly well built, repeatable and stellar operating scopes to have slipped. The new FFP/M5 might start to change opinions again. Time will tell, but rather than looking at the issues thru rose colored glasses, maybe look at the message and look for the truth in it and not let your bruised ego show so much. I think that everyone would like for a US based company to really show up and produce, but also people's money is not infinite either and they will buy what they perceive to be the best product for their dollars. if you think that people will buy anything other than Leupold, in spite, that is just insanity! Everyone knows that Leupold has great resale value. There has to be something to the fact that people are buying scopes other than Leupold in such large numbers these days don't you think?

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McKinneyMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If some of you die hard fans would simply listen to the issues being discussed rather than sticking your heads in the sand and demand that Leupold correct their course, what incentive do they have to change? I don't think that anyone is bashing them as "junk", just that in todays market, they are not keeping pace overall and they have allowed their once great track record for producing incredibly well built, repeatable and stellar operating scopes to have slipped. The new FFP/M5 might start to change opinions again. Time will tell, but rather than looking at the issues thru rose colored glasses, maybe look at the message and look for the truth in it and not let your bruised ego show so much. I think that everyone would like for a US based company to really show up and produce, but also people's money is not infinite either and they will buy what they perceive to be the best product for their dollars. if you think that people will buy anything other than Leupold, in spite, that is just insanity! Everyone knows that Leupold has great resale value. There has to be something to the fact that people are buying scopes other than Leupold in such large numbers these days don't you think? </div></div>

These problems you speak of are exaggerated by a small, vocal minority that dominates internet forums such as this one. This exact same thing takes place on another forum I frequent, www.m14tfl.com, regarding Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A rifles. They make so many more rifles than their competitors that proportionately they have more issues that pop up online. And we all know <span style="font-style: italic">everyone</span> comes to post about a problem, not so much when things are going well.

 

[recce556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

I've owned a few MK4's (3-9x36, a few 3.5-10x40, 6.5-20x50, 8.5-25x50) back when I used to think Leupold was the shiznit. Every time I bought one, I was disappointed but kept buying them because I thought, "oh, maybe it was just that one that wasn't that good". I had only owned less expensive scopes before that and maybe my expectations were high because I was spending so much more money but honestly, I was never really satisfied with them...and this is long before I ever looked through a real QUALITY scope.

I sold off ALL the Leupolds and I have no plans on going back at this point. Now that I own S&B, PR, IOR, NF, etc., I don't know that Leupold will ever win me back...but I will check them out at SHOT and see if they anything to offer..

 

[recce556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These problems you speak of are exaggerated by a small, vocal minority that dominates internet forums such as this one. This exact same thing takes place on another forum I frequent, www.m14tfl.com, regarding Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A rifles. They make so many more rifles than their competitors that proportionately they have more issues that pop up online. And we all know <span style="font-style: italic">everyone</span> comes to post about a problem, not so much when things are going well. </div></div>While this may be true to a small extent (the exaggerated reports), it is FACT that Springfield started to use lower cost, lower quality parts. I had NEVER heard of people breaking USGI parts (under normal use) and when SA, inc. move away from USGI parts, all sorts of breakages started popping up (MIM and cast parts). It's not just coincidence or the "advent" of the internet. There's a reason why SA, inc. went back to forged bolts. They tried to cut corners and they got clipped.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McKinneyMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...what incentive do they have to change?</div></div>IMO, their only incentive is sales. Once they loose enough, they'll re-evaluate their current course...but until then, I don't think they give a rat's ass.

 

[ORD]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

How many times does this same old tired SH!T have to come up? I mean seriously, a simple search of the forum will yield numerous threads in the last year or less where people have previously raised their objections to, love/support of, hatred/loathing of, etc, all things Leupold (from poor quality, to customer service...both good and bad, to lack of innovation, to pricing, to...the list goes on and on).

People will always hate and bash on products (i.e. - My Ford is better than your Chevy; my American car is better than your Japanese car; etc.)...some with more than good reasons/justification and others without a single, solitary, informed basis for their opinions. So, again I ask...how many times must we continue to go through this? Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind...nobody is going to be proven right (or wrong)...the only thing that will happen is that, yet again, this thread will linger on and go back and forth with one person raving about Leupold while another bitches about them and nothing will be resolved at the end of the day, week, month or year when the damn thing finally dies (or gets locked when somebody goes WAY off the reservation).

Ok, rant OFF...please continue with yet another senseless thread re: Leupold.

 

[jeo556]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

deleted

 

[Lowlight]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

Funny, you see the truth, you point out the problems, which happen far too often, you're a hater of the company...

When class after class the number one scope to fail is Leupold, --then people claim because so many of them are out there, well these are their "tactical" scopes and not the hunting line. When we have a competition with 92 shooters and the one brand with multiple scope failures on the line is Leupold, to the point where people can no longer continue to compete, that is not hate, but a problem within the product line.

However if I see a problem and bring it to the company and they tell me we'll look into it, and I say nothing --- people also get up in arms.

When you point out the scopes "no longer" say Made in USA, people get upset with the messenger, and don't question a company who's prices have gone up, who's failure rates has increased, and who moved to second tier parts enough to lose the Made in USA tag, we are haters.

Sure plenty of scopes are made overseas, but their failure rate is not reflected on their location. For a company like NF, who is bringing things on shore, and is used every bit alongside Leupolds in the military, the failure rate cannot be compared... it's easily 5 to 1, maybe even 10 to 1. Sure Leupolds are packaged with system rifles, but that is not based on success, but volume, the ability to produce replacements better than any other company.

Are they god awful, no not at all, but really would I invest my money in one given the choices, absolutely not. Given the same budget, there are better scopes to invest in, some for less money.

I have a new M5 here to review, I think from the outside it is a decent scope, we'll see how it performs... but other companies out there are definitely beating Leupold at their own game haters or not.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
but schmidt benders are foreign made
hensoldt are too
night force is iffy, parts made elsewhere and assembled in USA last time i heard
IOR foreign
vortex foreign
march foriegn
bushnell foreign

US optics is made in the USA


</div></div>

Yeah, but there is a big difference between "made in germany or japan" and "made in china". If a scope has been drawn up in another country for export, or uses that country's superior materials, that has far more merit than a scope that has been outsourced to another country for its entire manufacturing process to cut production cost.

 

[wslowik]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sure plenty of scopes are made overseas, but their failure rate is not reflected on their location. For a company like NF, who is bringing things on shore, and is used every bit alongside Leupolds in the military, the failure rate cannot be compared... it's easily 5 to 1, maybe even 10 to 1.</div></div>

Which is it, 5 to 1, or 10 to 1? I mean, you pulled those numbers right out of the air. Why even make claims like that without backing them up at all?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sure plenty of scopes are made overseas, but their failure rate is not reflected on their location. For a company like NF, who is bringing things on shore, and is used every bit alongside Leupolds in the military, the failure rate cannot be compared... it's easily 5 to 1, maybe even 10 to 1.</div></div>

Which is it, 5 to 1, or 10 to 1? I mean, you pulled those numbers right out of the air. Why even make claims like that without backing them up at all?</div></div>

I can back it up, I can tell you every single military class we have, between 15 & 20 shooters using Leupold we have between 2 and 5 failures per class... Same classes but with Crane supplied rifles, using NF, we have very few if any failures... the worst we see with the NF is people over tightening the Zero Stop and binding the turret, loosening it helps fix the problem.

Fanboys always focus on one aspect of the conversation, ignoring all the substance, trying to focus on a single issue.

The NF failure rate is low, very low in fact. We've had polls on here mister 30 posts, and NF ranks up there for reliability in a place Leupold can't even see.

 

[Guest]

Re: whats wrong with leupold?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wslowik</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sure plenty of scopes are made overseas, but their failure rate is not reflected on their location. For a company like NF, who is bringing things on shore, and is used every bit alongside Leupolds in the military, the failure rate cannot be compared... it's easily 5 to 1, maybe even 10 to 1.</div></div>

Which is it, 5 to 1, or 10 to 1? I mean, you pulled those numbers right out of the air. Why even make claims like that without backing them up at all? </div></div>

wslowik......can I call you "Slowy" for short? Look slowy, I offer advice as presented by a Wayans brother:

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