Sidearms & Scatterguns Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Carter Mayfield,

Here is the quote from the test review = " The 200 grain Cor-Bon JHP has exhibited superb accuracy in a few of my 1911 pistols, and was the winner in this Firestorm as well, clustering five shots into only one and one-quarter inches at twenty-five yards, and it did this repeatedly."

Not bad for a $500 gun and it shoots better under test conditions then your less then $2000 Baer which shoots 1+1/2" groups. I think my neighbor and you got robbed.

My whole point was that the better shooting pistol will help the shooter learn to shoot better.

As for shooting High Power I do and my M16 will shoot less than 1/2" ten shot groups at 100 yds. We High Power shooters shoot at 200 yds. off hand with open sights and no sling. If your weapon shoots smaller groups then the other guys you have a better chance of having a higher score because you can put more shots inside the rings then outside. If you don't believe me try it. AND it gets more critical at longer distances.

40gt

PS: In case you might want to try one. The Firestorm's name has been changed to AMERICAN CLASSIC II. Oh, by the way the wood grips suck, but they can be changed as you know. The trigger is great right out of the box. It feels very similar to a 2 stage M16 target trigger. You squeeze until you feel the catch then squeeze a little more and the hammer falls like a Smith & Wesson revolver.

http://www.americanclassic1911.com/classic-ii-model.html

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

My Baer test targets was 1 1/2" at <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">50 yards</span></span>, not 25, and it was a 10-shot group, not 5. But as you point out, for $525, I don't expect Baer quality or components.

So let's see those groups!

 

[Apex Motorsports]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

If your shooting sub 2.5 inch groups at 25 your doing well above average. Best I have done with my production glock is about 2.2. I am heading to the range monday for more testing, I will try to remember not to trash the targets. The race pistol shoots about 1.5 with ammo that isn't special. When I get my loads worked up I will post accuracy with the barsto barrel.

Hoping it will hover just over an inch.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Like the OP, I have no idea what is good bad or average. Obviously, I can't go by what I see at the range. It is like everyone there is shooting with their eyes closed (with a few exceptions). That goes for pistol and rifle.

The other day, I was shooting next to a girl who was shooting similar groups to mine... the difference was that I was practicing speed and shooting a magazine for each of her shots, but I was impressed. I don't think I have seen anyone shoot like that at our range before.

So my comparison set is limited. Given that I shot a pistol for the first time last July, I am pretty happy so far, but I have a lot to learn.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

My Baer test targets was 1 1/2" at <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">50 yards</span></span>, not 25, and it was a 10-shot group, not 5. But as you point out, for $525, I don't expect Baer quality or components.

I looked up on the Les Baer web site and their top of the line target 1911s are guaranteed 3" groups at 50 yds. which is pretty darn accurate. The other top 1911s are guaranteed 1+1/2" groups at 25 yds.

So I guess you must have gotten lucky to get one that will group 1+1/2" groups at 50 yds. If by chance you had a typo and it should have been 25 yd. 1+1/2" group it would be more believable.

My point has always been to put the word out that the American Classic II is a good choice for a very accurate 1911 for a fair price especially for the guy who wants a competitive shooting pistol and can not afford to pay around $2000.

40gt

PS: This is going to be my next one for C/C:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/74303

 

[jeffbird]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think my neighbor and you got robbed.

My whole point was that the better shooting pistol will help the shooter learn to shoot better.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My Baer test targets was 1 1/2" at <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">50 yards</span></span>, not 25, and it was a 10-shot group, not 5. But as you point out, for $525, I don't expect Baer quality or components.

I looked up on the Les Baer web site and their top of the line target 1911s are guaranteed 3" groups at 50 yds. which is pretty darn accurate. The other top 1911s are guaranteed 1+1/2" groups at 25 yds.

So I guess you must have gotten lucky to get one that will group 1+1/2" groups at 50 yds. If by chance you had a typo and it should have been 25 yd. 1+1/2" group it would be more believable.

My point has always been to put the word out that the American Classic II is a good choice for a very accurate 1911 for a fair price especially for the guy who wants a competitive shooting pistol and can not afford to pay around $2000.

40gt

PS: This is going to be my next one for C/C:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/74303

</div></div>

Note at the bottom of the price list for the various pistols:

"Note: Customers can request a "1-1/2” groups at 50 yds.” guarantee on many 5” and 6” steel pistols. This service is available only on Les Baer Pistols. Add... $ 295.00"

http://www.lesbaer.com/prices.html

The standard for the SRP model is 50 yards: "• Test fired with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok ammo and Remington Sabre 230 grain H.P. ammo and guaranteed to shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards"

http://www.lesbaer.com/Swift.html

The 1 1/2" guarantee can be added to the SRP for the 1 1/2" charge. Personally, for me, the 2 1/2" at 50 is more than adequate.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

[/quote]

Note at the bottom of the price list for the various pistols:

"Note: Customers can request a "1-1/2” groups at 50 yds.” guarantee on many 5” and 6” steel pistols. This service is available only on Les Baer Pistols. Add... $ 295.00"

http://www.lesbaer.com/prices.html

The standard for the SRP model is 50 yards: "• Test fired with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok ammo and Remington Sabre 230 grain H.P. ammo and guaranteed to shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards"

http://www.lesbaer.com/Swift.html

The 1 1/2" guarantee can be added to the SRP for the 1 1/2" charge. Personally, for me, the 2 1/2" at 50 is more than adequate.




[/quote]

WOW, I stand corrected!

I still think that the AMERICAN CLASSIC II for $529 is a very accurate 1911 compared to much higher priced 1911s that have to be sent back to be accurized. The average Joe can't afford those high dollar guns let alone the price of a Les Baer.

40gt

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

See, for many folks, Baer is just too cheap to shoot. For guys used to buying Glocks, 1911's are too expensive. It really depends on our perspective. Many folks here are glad to put down $1,700 for a scoped precision rifle (and that is on the low, low side), so in comparison to that, Baer is cheap. Of the semi-customs, Baer is on the cheap side while Wilson Combat will run you $500 - $1,000 more than a Baer with the same features.

For tremendous value, the Dan Wesson Valor seems hard to beat. There is a solid review here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236

Now that is a real review. He ransom rested a number of guns, but also took them apart and inspected common failure points and looked at overall fit and finish.

These might be out of your price range, but these are the kinds of things that 1911 owners obsess over. To people who are getting on waiting lists to have top smiths from the Louder Than Words site build their guns, a Baer is a cheap off-the-rack gun.

My Baer looks great on the outside, but when you strip it, you can see internal surfaces that show tooling marks. It doesn't bother me, but theses are the types of things that people are paying extra for (Ed Brown is known for machining everything smooth inside and out).

It took me 6 months to figure out what I wanted in a pistol and another 4 months to wait for it to be built, but I love my Baer... and I also see what other folks are paying big dollars for.

You look at my Baer and you see waste where I see value, but I look at some of these custom guns, and while I marvel, I do see a bit of extravagance in what is ultimately just a vehicle for delivering hot lead to a target.

One of the interesting things about the Severns review is that it talks about the opposing build philosophies of Dan Wesson and Les Baer. Baer pistols all start with oversized parts and are hand-fitted in each individual pistols (the fitted parts on my gun are serialized by hand). Dan Wesson takes a different approach by CNC machining each part to very close tolerances and employing very little hand fitting. Wesson guns are a little cheaper than Baer, and in Dave Severns' review, the gun he tests is more accurate than the Baer... though he notes that he has had Baer guns that shoot better than the one he tested.

And of course, the outperformer of the group is a Wesson gun that Severns customized. That will set you back upwards of $3,500 all in, so my Baer is a real deal at a little over half that.

Again, it all depends on your perspective.

Now let's see some groups, 40gt!

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups


Now let's see some groups, 40gt![/quote]

When I get a chance I'll take some pictures & post them just for you. Hopefully they will be as good as yours since you have more experience with a 1911 than I.

40gt

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

You have fewer than 8 months of experience?

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Waiting to see the groups ...

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

I guess the groups for the Firestorm 1911 are so small that no one can see them...

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the groups for the Firestorm 1911 are so small that no one can see them... </div></div>

40gt is getting so spammy that he's gonna pop up in a thread about hammers extolling the hardness and other virtues of the Firestorm 1911's grip panels.

Recognizing an excellent choice in nicknames:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yrv_61eRlsE"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yrv_61eRlsE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

I call my son Curtis all of the time. It upsets him. I told him he needs to get used to it with a last name like Mayfield.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Break it down to him like this: the man sang the title track to the movie "Superfly." It's almost <span style="font-style: italic">impossible</span> to get any cooler than <span style="font-style: italic">that.</span>

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the groups for the Firestorm 1911 are so small that no one can see them...</div></div>

I won't get out to the range until Wednesday weather permitting. I live 82 miles from it one way. Good or bad you will see the groups if I can hit the paper.

40gt

PS: They don't make the Firestorm anymore it is an American Classic II made by Metro Arms in the Philippines.

 

[jeffbird]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Carter,

Nice shooting.

What load do you use?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the groups for the Firestorm 1911 are so small that no one can see them...</div></div>

I won't get out to the range until Wednesday weather permitting. I live 82 miles from it one way. Good or bad you will see the groups if I can hit the paper.

40gt

PS: They don't make the Firestorm anymore it is an American Classic II made by Armscor in the Philippines.</div></div>

I understand it takes a while to get to the range sometimes.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffbird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carter,

Nice shooting.

What load do you use?</div></div>

I am using Missouri Bullets LSWC Bullseye #1 over 5.0 gr of Winchester W231. Various headstamp brass, but mostly Federal large primer and CBC. Primers are Federal Match Pistol. OAL = 1.24".

I haven't experimented much with the charge weight, but this is a very standard load that shoots well. Kind of like 175 SMK's over 43.0 or 45.0 gr Varget.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 40gt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The trigger is great right out of the box. It feels very similar to a 2 stage M16 target trigger. You squeeze until you feel the catch then squeeze a little more and the hammer falls like a Smith & Wesson revolver.</div></div>

If any of my 1911s' triggers felt like this, I would be taking them apart that instant to figure out wtf was wrong with them.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Waiting to see the groups ...</div></div>

Look here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=6830505#post6830505

40gt

PS: I was resting the butt on top of my leather holster. One of the guys at the range said I should use round bulls eye targets. I doubt I could shoot that good off hand.

I used 5.1 grains of Accurate #2 powder and 200 grain Rainier HP plated bullets. I was also told that I should try 4.1 to 4.3 grains of N310 powder with 185 grain bullets. (The USMC Dorman Load) He also told me that the front blade should be in clear focus with the back Novac blurry and the target looking gray color which is not in perfect focus. I started shooting better after aiming like he suggested. He also was surprised how good the trigger was and liked the American Classic II which he knew about.

Now since I am almost out of Accurate #2 & bullets I will have to order what he suggested unless someone here thinks I should use something different.

How about PENN BULLETS INC. 200 grain SWCBB target grade for $41.00 for 500 to try. "Commonly referred to as the H&G68 it was developed by the great moldmakers Hensley and Gibbs and was their No.68 mold designation."

http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Here are two of the other targets that I practiced with and as I said I did rest the butt of the 1911 on my leather holster and was also sitting on a stool when I shot. I doubt very much that I could shoot like this off hand, but the American Classic II that I bought shoots pretty good out of the box.

Look here I added them to the other post:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=6830505#post6830505

40gt

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Nice shooting. I need to try shooting from a stool sometimes. Seems awkward to me.

Mine were shot in the Weaver position, which is pretty stable and accurate to me... and again... my pistol still outshoots me by far.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

I am sure mine will out shoot my ability. What is the Weaver position? Never heard of that.

OH, you have my respect Carter in your shooting ability.

40gt

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Weaver is at roughly a 45 degree angle to target with strong arm back. The grip is like a Bullseye grip with your strong hand and your weak hand supporting with your weak hand thumb over the strong hand thumb and weak hand wrapped around the strong hand.

The Weaver has largely been supplanted by the isosceles or iso position, which has your strong hand riding the safety and weak hand wrist locked down so that the weak hand thumb is pointing at the target riding under the strong hand.

In the iso position, you are generally square to the target with some people preferring to put their strong foot a step back. Arms are usually bent to varying degrees to absorb recoil.

There is no comparison in recoil recovery time... the iso kicks the Weaver's ass. I am more accurate with the Weaver. The grip mimics a bullseye grip with the second hand adding stability.

There is no bullseye shooting two handed, so there is really no reason to use the stance... but for a two handed accuracy test like Jim's target, I found it more effective than iso just playing around with it. The shooting disciplines apart from Bullseye place a premium on speed, so fast recoil recovery presents a distinct advantage.

And then there are long range pistol contests, but those generally use some sort of prone position, I think. I haven't done much with that. Pistol is not allowed on my 100 yard range.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Thanks for the explanation Carter, but you lost me which is OK. It looks like I am in need of a lot of instruction. I have always been a rifle shooter, but since I am getting up in years it is easier to carry a "short" gun instead of a long gun. My long range rifle ways 14.5 pounds so I switched to my Browning BAR 30-06 which weighs about 10 pounds.

40gt

PS: I'll get back to you later. The boss wants me to do some chores.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Interesting topic.

I only concern myself with the accuracy for my intended purpose. Hit what I need to hit, when I need to hit it, as fast as I need to hit it, as many times as I need to hit it.

Anything else is mental masturbation.......if you simply enjoy shooting for accuracy and tight little groups, that's one thing.....enjoy and have at it. If you're focusing on shooting a ragged little hole at 25 yards because you feel it's an important skill for pistol work, that I don't agree with.

Based on your pistol selection, I am assuming you are talking self defense purposes.


For self defense I would suggest this. Take an 8 inch paper plate. Run your target out to as far as you can where you can hit it every single time....focusing on fundementals. Then start picking up your pace. If your range allows it, fire from a draw. Practice drawing, obtaining sight picture and firing a 2-3 shot group as fast as you can but still hit the plate. If you're not hitting the plate, back off on the speed until you can. Work that same drill until you don't miss as fast as you can get on the trigger. Then increase the amount of rounds....say 5 round volleys. Try to keep the same time frame. If your accuracy decreases, slow down and work your way back up.


Pistol work is for defensive purposes typically. Unless you compete in a pistol based accuracy contest, what counts is getting rounds on target and within a reasonable vital zone as quickly as possible and scoring multiple hits.

Applying strict accuracy principles above all other when shooting defensive handguns is like using a dump truck to drag race with. It's not what it was intended for and you are wasting valuable time and ammo training for skills you don't need and are not practical with a combat handgun.

Example, why focus on breath control and squeezing the trigger at the bottom of your exhale on defensive pistol shooting like you would a precision rifle? Sure.....it will help you tighten your groups but who cares? If you ever needed to use that pistol in harms way......would you wait till youre at the bottom of your breath?

In my opinion you train the way you will use the gun. For me, a combat/defensive pistol is meant to be shot as fast as possible from a draw and be able to score multiple hits In a vital zone.

I have never practiced strictly accuracy fundementals with a handgun, not in the 40 years I've been shooting them. I can however hit a 8 inch steel plate at 10 yards almost as fast as I can possibly pull the trigger.

That's accurate enough for me.

 

[eracer]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

^^^^^^^^^ BINGO! ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[supermoto917]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

8 yards drawing from holster double shots just testing out a new fiber optic front sight.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting topic.

I only concern myself with the accuracy for my intended purpose. Hit what I need to hit, when I need to hit it, as fast as I need to hit it, as many times as I need to hit it.

Anything else is mental masturbation.......if you simply enjoy shooting for accuracy and tight little groups, that's one thing.....enjoy and have at it. If you're focusing on shooting a ragged little hole at 25 yards because you feel it's an important skill for pistol work, that I don't agree with.

Based on your pistol selection, I am assuming you are talking self defense purposes.


For self defense I would suggest this. Take an 8 inch paper plate. Run your target out to as far as you can where you can hit it every single time....focusing on fundementals. Then start picking up your pace. If your range allows it, fire from a draw. Practice drawing, obtaining sight picture and firing a 2-3 shot group as fast as you can but still hit the plate. If you're not hitting the plate, back off on the speed until you can. Work that same drill until you don't miss as fast as you can get on the trigger. Then increase the amount of rounds....say 5 round volleys. Try to keep the same time frame. If your accuracy decreases, slow down and work your way back up.


Pistol work is for defensive purposes typically. Unless you compete in a pistol based accuracy contest, what counts is getting rounds on target and within a reasonable vital zone as quickly as possible and scoring multiple hits.

Applying strict accuracy principles above all other when shooting defensive handguns is like using a dump truck to drag race with. It's not what it was intended for and you are wasting valuable time and ammo training for skills you don't need and are not practical with a combat handgun.

Example, why focus on breath control and squeezing the trigger at the bottom of your exhale on defensive pistol shooting like you would a precision rifle? Sure.....it will help you tighten your groups but who cares? If you ever needed to use that pistol in harms way......would you wait till youre at the bottom of your breath?

In my opinion you train the way you will use the gun. For me, a combat/defensive pistol is meant to be shot as fast as possible from a draw and be able to score multiple hits In a vital zone.

I have never practiced strictly accuracy fundementals with a handgun, not in the 40 years I've been shooting them. I can however hit a 8 inch steel plate at 10 yards almost as fast as I can possibly pull the trigger.

That's accurate enough for me.

</div></div>
The point is that when it counts, people's groups tend to double (at best) when under the stress and environmental conditions of the situation at hand.

If you are training to shoot 8" groups on the range, expect to shoot 16"+ groups on the street.

The CNS on a target is only a few inches wide. The ocular cavity on a person is only 3-4" in size. THOSE are the kinds of targets you need to be able to hit to shut a threat down, right there and then.

There is a reason that surgical marksmanship is preached with special operations units, and by those who've seen what happens in the real world. Guys like Brian Searcy, Larry Vickers, Pat Macnamara, Mike Pannone, Kyle Lamb, etc... there is a reason they just all demand surgical accuracy in their classes... and it's not because they just like shooting little round targets.
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/

You need to be capable of doing that before you try and run at full speed, doing target transitions, changing gears between large close targets and distant/ small ones, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, etc.

Without that ability to deliver one single perfect shot, you're just hoping that your volume of fire lands a good enough hit.

When you know you can hit just about any target, slowly, you have the ability to slow down just enough to make the shot you need to make. Without great fundamentals, making hard shots under adverse conditions (super high stress, moving, reduced lighting, one hand, after being punched in the face, etc) can be a hell of a challenge.

I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't push hard and fast, and shoot big close targets rapidly (eventually), but without first developing the ability to shoot harder targets (slower) then you'll likely be ingraining lots of sloppy reps on the trigger that are a pain to break, later.

 

[cactusbrew]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Waiting to see the groups ...</div></div>

Yep. 8 pages later and a handful of groups.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Before one can determine accuracy, one must define the upper control limit.

For example, if you define the 5 ring as an acceptable limit for accuracy and all 10 shots fall within the 5 ring, then you can say your firearm is "accurate" to your required specifications.

Now, if you define the 10 ring as the acceptable upper limit for accuracy and 7 of the 10 rounds fall outside of the 10 ring, then your weapon cannot be considered "accurate"

You have to establish the parameters for what you deem to be accurate and accpetable to your standards.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Before one can determine accuracy, one must define the upper control limit.

For example, if you define the 5 ring as an acceptable limit for accuracy and all 10 shots fall within the 5 ring, then you can say your firearm is "accurate" to your required specifications.

Now, if you define the 10 ring as the acceptable upper limit for accuracy and 7 of the 10 rounds fall outside of the 10 ring, then your weapon cannot be considered "accurate"

You have to establish the parameters for what you deem to be accurate and accpetable to your standards.

If you shoot a 10 shot group of .308 rounds that measures .400 inches but it is 5 inches left and 10 inches low of your intended POI, then your weapon is not accurate. It is EXTREMELY <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">repeatable</span></span></span>, but it is not <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">accurate</span></span></span>.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Idk if this is accurate this is all new to me. This is offhand at 10yds the top is 6.5gr of unique, the bottom is 5.8gr of Winchester 231. Starline brass and Berry 230gr FMJs. Both are 40 shots.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Jim D, I don't think we are saying anything different.

If you look at the article you linked, Larry is referring to accuracy based on a 25 yard pistol black bullseye.......about 6 inches wide. If you can keep your shots inside a 6-8 inch ring during rapid fire, especially while transitioning from target to target and reloading and using cover all while maintaining a combat tempo of fire at typical pistol combat distances?.........you shoot better than probably 99% of all gun toters out there, including bad guys you'd be shooting against.

The problem of not incorporating speed into the equation is that the skills you will be focusing on during ultimate accuracy practice do not apply to combat practice.

Like I said, if you're shooting an NRA pistol slow course of fire and X rings are your goal, that's great. However, it's a completely different skill set to effective combat pistol shooting.

In a combat scenario CNS shots are rare. I focus on dumping 6-8 rounds in my imaginary bad guy opponent......I hope that practice translates to reality if I ever need it. Multiple rounds on target are the best and most important wounding mechanism.

 

[bornhunter04]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

I don't know how accurate these are but for the sake of having some groups here ya go.

I went yesterday and shot my new ruger lcr for the first time. I dumped 20 rounds of semi-slow fire into a shoot-n-c @ 10 yards it was 125 gr. blazer brass ammo. Just so i could get a feel for it. It appears that I'm using a bit too much finger on the trigger but with the long trigger pull, I don't know how to mitigate this yet (any thoughts)

Then i loaded up a cylinder of hornady Critical Defense .38+p took a couple of shots to figure out the sight picture. The first shot was surprisingly low considering it's a lighter faster bullet.....

I also practiced with my G19 w/ stock sights, drawing from my crossbreed and emptying the mags as fast as i could acquire sight picture. 5 rounds per mag w/ a mag change @ 10 yards. I also did a few close up drills and the flyer on the BG target was the second shot of that string when a piece of brass smacked my square in the face, surprised the hell outta me! I've got some grip decal rubber textured panels on it, which i believe explains my right leaning groups (I'm a southpaw). there's 120 rounds of 9mm between the 4 targets. The first two has some movement shooting on them as well. But all 4 were shot, drawing from concealment.

50 rounds mixed between the next two targets.

I picked up a box of the new Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr. ammo the other week and shot the following 5 shot group, could have done better. This was shot with my G17.

There's some groups for comparison, everything was shot offhanded with factory ammo and factory guns, could have done better, might do better next time but that's why it's called practice!

Here's a target I shot on 4-10-12 with an LCR @ 10 yards - fast fire. Little gun points good and shoots good, i was dumping the cylinder as fast as i could squeeze and reset.

This was shot with my G19 @ 15 yards on 4-10-12. Sorry of the crappy pics, forgot to take my camera to the range.

I've since taken the Grip tape panels off my G19 as it was rubbing when carried and causing me to shoot to the right.

 

[thehjot]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Weapon of choice was a Smith and Wesson 686 revolver. Target was 10 yards away, I shot off the bench using only my hands as a rest. Adjustable open sights that were installed by S&W when they redid the trigger.
I fired handloads, loaded by somebody I trust. The load was .38 Special, 158grain SWC, Red Dot 3.0. I had a better group with the .357 loads, but I can't find the pictures to prove it. So, without further ado...

You'll have to tell me if this is a good group or not, because I really have no idea. It's better than I'll ever need it to shoot, so I was happy with it. This is the only pistol that I really shoot for group size at paper. Most of my pistol work is defensive "tactical" style shooting at steel targets. I don't so much try for a 'group' on steel as I do try for a 'ping'.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim D, I don't think we are saying anything different.

If you look at the article you linked, Larry is referring to accuracy based on a 25 yard pistol black bullseye.......about 6 inches wide. If you can keep your shots inside a 6-8 inch ring during rapid fire, especially while transitioning from target to target and reloading and using cover all while maintaining a combat tempo of fire at typical pistol combat distances?.........you shoot better than probably 99% of all gun toters out there, including bad guys you'd be shooting against.

The problem of not incorporating speed into the equation is that the skills you will be focusing on during ultimate accuracy practice do not apply to combat practice.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Like I said, if you're shooting an NRA pistol slow course of fire and X rings are your goal, that's great. However, it's a completely different skill set to effective combat pistol shooting.</span>

In a combat scenario CNS shots are rare. I focus on dumping 6-8 rounds in my imaginary bad guy opponent......I hope that practice translates to reality if I ever need it. Multiple rounds on target are the best and most important wounding mechanism.</div></div>

I disagree that the two are different (slow fire practice of the fundamentals, and shooting rapidly). The key to performing well at speed is having flawless fundamentals, and knowing just how sloppy you can get with them before you are going to shoot outside the acceptable target zone. Without that ability you'll just be a one trick pony that can slap the trigger fast and shoot easy targets quickly. You'll get owned on the tough shots, though.

One must be developed before the other is worked on seriously.

Yes, when you shoot at speed, you don't have ALL of your fundamentals being executed perfectly... but the key to doing it well is being able to compensate. You might be winded and have a really exaggerated "wobble zone"... you can balance that out by maintaining solid sight alignment and getting a really clean trigger press. You might have a hard shot, then a transition to a really easy/ big target.... you need to be able to go from a slow press with a nice sharp front sight focus to more of a "target focus" with rough sight alignment while accelerating your trigger press.

Not to be vain, but here is a video of a match I shot last week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qGD3RXW_7Q

The tempo and my focus on refining each shot changes as each shot requires a different level of attention to make the hit. Each shot was fired individually.

Some targets, like the first 3 on the last stage (1:02), I could pretty much point shoot. The other more distance ones got a solid sight picture with sharp front sight focus.

You might notice my second shot on the second stage (at about :33, leaning to the right on the target array with the vertical black "cover") was a much slower split than the rest... my foot slipped on the brass on the concrete floor. I had to abort the shot I wanted and recover before I could shoot. A "double-tapper" would have made the decision to fire the second shot before the first shot broke, and likely would have threw the round over the target (limited vickers stage, would have been a good sized penalty).

I missed one A-zone by 1 inch that match. I was down (-1) total for all 4 of those stages.

Multiple rounds on target is good... but on a target moving laterally (reducing the available target zone), quickly, while returning fire, in poor lighting... if you never developed the ability to hit a small target on the square range when everything was perfect... you're not likely to have a good chance at making solid hits under those challenging real world conditions.

"No one is going to need to tell you to shoot faster in a gunfight."
I first heard that from Ken Hackathorn, so I'll give him credit, though he may have got it from someone else.


Speed comes from efficiency. Efficiency is doing what you need to do, and as little else besides that as possible. You can sacrifice some of the fundamentals to speed up, but you need to know how much you can get away with before you'll miss... that comes from knowing what perfect is, and how close to that you need to be for the shot required.

I used to slaughter guys at IDPA that weren't accurate, but were REALLY fast shooters and athletes. They had faster draws, splits, reloads, transitions, and movement. I had virtually no penalties, but was reasonably quick. It used to embarrass the hell out of them... they shot a lot more than I did, and took the "game" more seriously.

Those guys finally put the time in to refine their fundamentals, did a lot of pure accuracy work, and now that they're both fast AND accurate, I can't touch them anymore. They're guys that are legitimate threats at the Nationals now (both sponsored now), but I used to crush them because I didn't miss like they did.

You've GOT to put in the work on the pure accuracy portion if you want to have your act together. Missing fast only gets you so far in the games, and it gets you no-where but in a lawsuit or a coffin on the street.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.....obviously fundementals are the groundwork for every skill set.

However, it's being discussed in another thread here.....I think maybe it's more mindset, maybe not an application of skills issue. The gentleman in the other post mentions that years of shooting for marksmanship has possibly hampered his ability to pick up the tempo and shoot faster.

With 13 years in law enforcement experience in Miami, what I saw over and over was just the opposite of what you quoted by Ken Hackathorn. Most cops don't fire enough under stress. They fire one shot and freeze normally. Like a magic bullet instantly stopped the bad guy. Then after their brain kicks in gear they realize the bad guy ain't down and fire again.

Again, I'm not saying throw fundementals out the window.....but you have to find a balance and I think in combat style shooting you have to be willing to accept some loss in accuracy.

Just like F class and tactical matches. Tactical shooting doesn't require hitting bullseyes. It requires combat effective hits on target. If you're trying to shoot little bugholes it's counter productive to being effective in a combat style scenario.

I guess all I'm saying is you have to be willing to redefine what is accurate if your goal is to be combat style shooting effective.


Nice shooting BTW.

 

[tickled pink]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

In case you might be interested I changed the color of the dots on my sights to red & green, but didn't like the red front dot as much as orange.

The pictures don't show how bright the orange really is.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=683373&highlight=

Got the paint at HOBBY LOBBY for $2.99 + tax. It is ENAMAL paint.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Whats's accurate. Please show your groups

I recently discovered the Smith and Wesson 52-2. Its a .38 wad cutter semi automatic. As soon as I held it I thought it was something I had to have. This is 50 rounds at 10 yards 2 hand hold. I cant do anything like this with any other pistol I own.

The gun

 

[6point5guy]

Resurrecting a really old forum.....I didn’t see very many targets and the op wanted to see targets. Lots of discussion about why groups aren’t the end all to shooting but I also like to see groups from others so......

 

[6point5guy]

Here is a group I just shot with my Staccato XC.

 

[DJL2]

That's a SIG P320 with Norma 115 FMJ grain ammo at 25 yards. I fired that off my shooting bag and a sweat shirt while standing over my Christmas break. I would expect Hornady XTP or other high end ammo to group tighter. That's on par with my P226 (1998) and P220. I'm a long time pistol shooter and and I consider anything that shoots < 2.5" inches at 25 yards for five shot groups acceptably accurate. I consider anything less than < 2" as good, and anything <1.5" is outstanding (you're getting into SIG P210 territory there). For a while, the gold standard was the Ransom Rest...but, polymer framed pistols sometimes don't perform their best in that setup...or at least they did not do so once upon a time.

 

[houndog]

Interesting thread and something I've been thinking about since I started doing more pistol shooting. I suspect a lot of shooters reading through these posts are going to develop an inferiority complex. The average guy I see at the range is not capable of putting all their shots into a 2-3" hole at 25 yards shooting offhand with iron sights. And that's shooting as slowly as they want not doing some kind of timed fire exercise.

The last couple of weeks I've been doing a lot of .22 shooting indoors at my local club. Shooting two handed at 50' my current challenge is to try to keep all of my shots inside a 3" "shoot and see" target pasted onto an 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper. With a red dot I can generally put 16-17 shots out of 20 into this circle. Using iron sights things open up a little. This is at a "timed fire" pace. So certainly a lot of room for improvement, but I would say being able to put nearly all of your shots into a 3" circle at 50' is at least decent shooting. And being able to do this at speed would constitute pretty damn good shooting.

Of course, any decent bullseye shooter is capable of getting better results shooting one handed and using iron sights. If you want to be humbled take a look at a 50 ft. slow fire bullseye target, where anything out of the 3" bullseye gets you a 6 or lower.

 

[DJL2]

They SHOULD have an “ah ha” moment at some point - I’ve watched folks shooting at 3 yds create groups that look like they’re trying to pattern a shotgun. Totally unacceptable for anything other than turning money into noise (and having fun if that’s your thing). The target below is one I fired...hmm...late 2019. That was our Day 1 check on fundamentals so the instructor could see what he was dealing with. I have been around enough good shooters to recognize I am objectively middling at best. For example, this weekend I shot a Bill drill from my duty holster in 3.36 seconds, 1.86 to the fist shot. That’s slow - I’ll blame the cold. I can bump 3s when I’m “in form.” Good shooters can run that same drill in 2 seconds...or about the time I took me to fire my first shot. I’m not even in the same league. I could run down a list of all the things I suck at when shooting a pistol...and that’s the point: I know I suck and I want to suck less. Th3 number of folks with no perspective...

 

[houndog]

One other point that this thread has me thinking about. As I read some of the earlier posts it seems like some people are saying that there's no point in trying to shoot for speed until you have achieved a pretty high level of accuracy. Although I admittedly am complete crap when I try to shoot the kind of drills DJL2 is talking about (and am therefore probably not the best person to be giving advice on this), I'm not sure I agree. As someone who has always focused more on precision than speed (if for no other reason than I don't want to burn through all my ammo in 10 minutes) now that I've been trying to focus more on improving my speed as well, I feel like I have to unlearn certain habits I've acquired.

For example, if shooting solely for accuracy, recoil management is basically a non-issue. I don't really care what the gun does once I've pulled the trigger. Not true if you want to shoot quickly. Minimizing recoil and getting back on target is critical to improving your speed. This means I need to be sure I'm gripping the gun as close to the bore axis as possible. It also means I have to be gripping the gun fairly tightly.

Similarly, trigger press is different. If I'm only shooting for accuracy I can focus on a slow, smooth trigger press. Also, being sure to follow through generally helps accuracy. If you're shooting for speed you are obviously pulling the trigger a lot faster and have to learn to do this without disturbing the gun. You also need to learn to reset the trigger immediately after the gun fires.

Finally, although sight picture is always important, if you want to shoot quickly being able to immediately reacquire the sights is critical and you're going to have to learn to live with a less than perfect sight picture. If I'm shooting for accuracy I can generally take my time with the sight picture and focus on making sure it's as close to perfect as possible before I fire the next round.

So I generally find myself struggling to acquire new habits/skills and unlearn others whenever I try to improve my speed. And it's a challenge. I can either shoot as a snail's pace and maintain decent accuracy or shoot fairly quickly and not hit anything. I feel like if I had started focusing on some of the things you need to do to shoot quickly a little earlier in my shooting career, things would be less of a struggle now.

 

[DJL2]

Google: Rob Leatham Why Aiming is Useless.

If you are more tactically inclined, you can also check out TMACS Inc. / Pat McNamara and a host of others. Bottom line - shooting for maximum precision and shooting for optimal speed are NOT the same skill set.. If you like reading, you can also check out Brian Enos' Zen and the Art of Speed Shooting. I might misremember the title a bit.

I had to go all the way back to 2016 to dredge up this photo of my SIG GSR...I don't have a lot of photos of pistol groups because I don't usually shoot for groups.

 

[houndog]

DJ - thanks, I've seen the Rob Leatham video and was kind of thinking about it when I wrote my post. As I recall his major point was that until you can manipulate the trigger without moving the gun there's no point in aiming because your point of aim won't be the point of impact.

Will check out Brian Enos.

Almost bought a SIG GSR and do own a Sig 1911 in 9mm which is a nice gun.

BTW - you need to post distances your targets are shot at. Above pic with the Sig is very impressive if shot at 50 yards, still pretty impressive if shot at 25 yards. If shot at 3 yards - not so much.

 

[6point5guy]

As my eyes, and body, age I realize I can’t shoot open sights as well as I used to. One of the best groups I ever shot with open sights is the one in my avatar. Aprox. 1/2”5 shot, 25 yards with an Ed Brown 45 acp. Shooting custom reloads built for that gun. That particular set up was also amy preferred target type for that kind, open sights at 25 yards, of shooting. With the advent of quality, lightweight red dots my groups have been smaller on a more regular basis. For me it’s easier to shoot small groups regularly With a red dot sight. I also need a small, black circle for the target background. Without the right target my groups suffer. so I need a quality pistol that’s built well/tight, trigger that is relatively light but more importantly breaks clean, the right target and of course ammo the gun likes. All these things have to be there before I can put my abilities into the equation. However I think the most important item needed to shoot well/accurately, after the quality gun part would be the sight. A small red dot allows me to shoot smaller groups on a more regular basis. Without it I think most of us are handicapping ourselves.