When do you say " I Give"?

[Icallem]

This might be posted in the wrong place; however my question is Bolt Action Rifle specific.

I have been reading things on this site for approximately 2 years and if this has been posted, I missed it. I tried to search for it, but must not have used the right ‘key words’.

This is not to start a brand bashing, this is for any brand.

I always see posts on here where somebody gets a new rifle, sticks a scope on it, and it shoots .5 MOA right out of the box, just getting better from there. What I am asking about is, what about the ones that don’t shoot as good?

What is an acceptable state of accuracy, and how much time, effort and money do you put forth to reach this?

I guess, what I want to say is “when do you say I give” and move on to something else?

 

[hgr2]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Having had some really accurate rifles over the years, and a couple turds, I think the first range session will tell you if the rifle has potential or not provided you use good ammo. I have spent way too much time trying to make a poor rifle shoot well.

 

[mgd45]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Depends on how bad the accuracy is, & how much you got in it.....

For example, if I buy a Remington 700 SPS Tactical (for $575) & I can never get it to shoot groups better than 1.75" at 100 yards....I'll experiment with different factory ammo first....seeing if there is a specific brand that it likes better. If that doesn't improve anything, I'll get with "hand loader" (I already reload, but check at your local ranges...you'll find one) & try to customize a load that the rifle will like.

Also, you will want to check & double check your scope & rings & base to make sure they aren't moving during recoil & that they are of good, durable build quality....<span style="font-style: italic">(don't use a CounterSniper scope when you can get a Bushnell Elite....) </span>
If that still doesn't seem to lower my group size, the next thought will be that....<span style="font-style: italic">"maybe it's me......"</span> so get a few different shooters (<span style="font-weight: bold">who you KNOW can shoot</span>) and let them fire some groups through the rifle. If it's still doing the same type groups, then look at some gun smithing.

The first thing you can do yourself is get a better stock for the rifle. Get one with a good solid aluminum bedding block & pillars. If THAT doesn't do much...... I would send it off to have the bolt & action "trued" & even have the stock professionally bedded.

If this doesn't change anything.....(which is really should)...you'll have close to $1000 in a rifle....If I get to this point & it still won't shoot at 1 MOA accuracy.......yeah, I'll probably get rid of it....because if you try to replace the barrel with a custom one.....you've just added another $400 plus.....and now your at $1500....WAAAYY to much for a rifle that won't shoot 1 inch at 100 yards.

Good luck.....

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

This rifle shoots several loads well, but nothing 'good'.

Well being 1-1.25 moa. Good would seem to be .75 moa every now and then!

I an self employed and have a place to shoot out to 300 yards near my house. I get to shoot in the afternoons and it is typically by myself, so there is nobody to shoot the rifle. With that, I took a proven rifle along to see if it is was me.

Am I wanting to much?

 

[carbinero]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Get some DevCon and bed/free float it. As above, be sure of optics/mounts. Don't clean the barrel. If you're used to <1 MOA and this one won't do it, I wouldn't even pay for a new stock.

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Well, here is where the rub comes in.

The rifle is bedded in an A5 McM (by a well respected gunsmith from this site), rail and scope also installed. All this was done before it was ever fired, as my wife has the same model and it shoots real good. She has been putting me to shame of late and I can only use the 'I'm working up loads' so long!

I'm in this pretty deep, but will rebarrel if that would fix-it.

 

[learjet]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

u shoot ur wifes gun, have her shoot urs. see if the problems still there

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

We did that and things were the same. Her rifle will just outshoot this one. That said, we hit on a load for hers that it really likes. It has shot in the 4's, but on most days it runs .6-1 moa with the usual(for us) 1.5-2 moa. But it helps knowing the rifle is willing to do the .5 moa.

I'm starting to lose the faith with this one.

 

[terrygood]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Icallem,

You can get good accuracy out of any bolt action. You are asking why you cant get 1 inch groups at 300yds? Most people cant and I would ignore them. With that there are some very good shooters as well. The BS far surpasses the truth at all shooting/fishing stories.

If you have been taught the correct way to fire your rifle then it will come down to-

1-ammo
2-barrel
3-free floating
4-trigger
5-scope
6-solid set up?

Once that is good to go, Wind will be the deciding factor.
Read about bench rest records. They usually will shoot within a window of time to limit wind deflection.

One last thing I can think of is how is your eyesight?

 

[MTETM]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Sounds like you have made up your mind.
Now time to decide, invest in a new barrel for the current action or pull the barreled action, sell it and buy a new rifle to re-install in your stock.


Good Luck

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

I have not made up my mind yet, but really looking for thoughts into how far to push this one. I'm thinking that I'll let it make my mind up for me over the next 200-250 rounds.

 

[terrygood]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Do you have any friends with high end set ups? Try theres and it will help you more than anything. GAP, Surgeon, AI,etc.

 

[MTETM]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Icallem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not made up my mind yet, but really looking for thoughts into how far to push this one. I'm thinking that I'll let it make my mind up for me over the next 200-250 rounds. </div></div>

Sounds good, If this is a 308 and you reload as you mentioned you do...I would duplicate a couple of the proven 155 or 175 loads and try them. If they are sporadic and not providing the accuracy you are looking for, it may not be worth the money to put 200+ more rounds through the rifle "in search of".
Or, if you have having a good time shooting the rifle and you are getting better with it, maybe just find a good load and shoot the barrel out and not worry about the groups on paper.

Thoughts on my rifles, if they don't shoot to my expectations or my current ability, I loose confidence in them thus I don't shoot them. At that point for me it is time go sell out or replace the barrel.
Good Luck

 

[offroadr1]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

if you dont have faith in it, youre never gonna drive it like you should. you are always gonna have the lackluster attitude of why do i bother and only half ass it behind the trigger.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

What kind of groups does it shoot?

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

have you thought about sending it to one of the smiths on the board for a once over? short action customs or wnroscoe or GAP is in your area possibly depending on where in MO you are at. at this point you are pretty far in, id have to stay in for a better barrel

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

This rifle as I said shoots several loads well, but nothing good. That is not all true, it did shoot 168 Amax with 43 grains of H4895 good. This load had a very heavy bolt, so I quit it.

I have tried things from 110 gr v-max to 175 berger. Shoot all about 1-1.75 and up MOA.

I will not give up, I might hire help, but I'm in to deep to quit.

 

[samnev]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

You have the patience of Job. I had a Ruger Number 1 Heavy Barrel Varminter that I went through similar heart aches with. I gave up after the usual load variations and a better scope. When things didn't improve I traded it in.
Good luck with your rifle.

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Terryg

The 'proven' rifle I took with me to help me to know it is not me is a GAP. I know this is apples to oranges, and I'm not comparing the two, but it is good to know you are able to shoot small groups. The worst day with the GAP will put this one to shame on its best day. I wanted this one to shoot well as I was looking for a 'truck gun" if you will. The GAP is in a AICS and while it is fun to shoot, it is not what I want to haul around. Not meaning anything, this is just me.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: offroadr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you dont have faith in it, youre never gonna drive it like you should. </div></div>

Bingo!

Find an experienced shooter who does not know the history of the rifle and see they they can do with it.

If it's really a dog and you want better, then send it to a smith and have it rebarreled and rebedded OR sell it.

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

do we tend to want better because we know there is better out there?

 

[Hawk45]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

If you had a smith on the board here do some work already.. why not send it back to them and have them give it a once over? If they can't get it to shoot, have them work it up into a custom and be done with it. You've already got the time/money into it.. why not just finish it?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Icallem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do we tend to want better because we know there is better out there? </div></div>

Some do, some don't.

I will use my AE MkII as an example. I thought long and hard on if I would be satisfied with the AE when I could save a bit more and have the AW. I went back and forth on accuracy and features. When it came down to it I found that the guys who chose the AW (who were honest about their choice) stated that they bought the AW because it was "the best". Not necessarily because it was more accurate or because it did anything better. Just the fact that the manufacturer says it's the top of the line.

You will always have guys that buy the best because it's the best regardless of what their needs are or what their skill is capable of using. You see these guys driving Ferraris to lunch at the club. The vast majority of them have never been to a driving school and would spin out in the first turn at a track. They just like to own the "best". It's not a bad thing. It's what they WANT.

Now me? I am not flush with money. If I am shopping for a rifle I want something that is accurate enough to challenge my abilities but not break the bank. I weigh cost vs. benefit. I don't buy something because someone else says its the best. I don't always need the "best". Sometimes "good enough" is good enough.

Lastly.....so many folks get caught up in the "best" they don't take the time to learn to use what they have. You don't have to have "the best" to win matches. You need to know how to use what you have.

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

That is most likely what will happen. I should have had it completed the first time, but,,,,,,

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Oh, and I am sure it's been mentioned before, but don't believe the internet 1/4 MOA rifle/shooter BS.

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

"Some do, some don't"

I was thinking of just that thing. I have several people come over to shoot just before deer season. If they can hit a paper plate three times at 100 yards, they are happy.

The one good thing about them, is they are good trackers!

 

[josh1371]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

do the groups get better or worse as the barrel gets a little dirty? or as the barrel warms up? i had a rifle that if the barrel was clean it took 10 to 20 rounds before it would hold a 1 moa or better group, good for that rifle was .75, never better than .5. same rifle was very finicky when it started to warm up, usually if i tried shooting more than 2 groups in 10 or 15 minutes the groups would get horrible.

so, i finally decided it was time to look into doing a little better and reaching out there a little further, so i went to see one of the smiths on here, and to make a long story short, did alot of work on a take off, almost new barrel, put it on my rifle, and cut the groups in half, with the best so far being .108, with the normals running .25 to .5

if i were you, if possible, clean it very, very well, then clean the bore again. then take the rifle to a smith and borescope it. if it scopes good, have him "slug" the barrel, take a cast lead bullet for that caliber, run into the bore then slightly smashed between 2 brass rods, the pushed by hand through the the full length of the bore by hand feeling for tight spots. pretty much every barrel, except maybe the very high end barrels, will have small variations in the bore diameter. this can be taken care of by simply lapping the bore, and would be a whole lot cheaper than a new barrel and labor to get it installed.

 

[josh1371]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and I am sure it's been mentioned before, but don't believe the internet 1/4 MOA rifle/shooter BS.
</div></div>
i don't either, even some of the best shooters can't consistently shoot 1/4 moa or better, the rest of us just get lucky and a huge ego boost with a group like that every now and then. i'll always be happy with a rifle that shoots 3/4 moa consistently, because thats about the point where i become the weak link.

 

[proneshooter]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Icallem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do we tend to want better because we know there is better out there? </div></div>

Some do, some don't.

I will use my AE MkII as an example. I thought long and hard on if I would be satisfied with the AE when I could save a bit more and have the AW. I went back and forth on accuracy and features. When it came down to it I found that the guys who chose the AW (who were honest about their choice) stated that they bought the AW because it was "the best". Not necessarily because it was more accurate or because it did anything better. Just the fact that the manufacturer says it's the top of the line.

You will always have guys that buy the best because it's the best regardless of what their needs are or what their skill is capable of using. You see these guys driving Ferraris to lunch at the club. The vast majority of them have never been to a driving school and would spin out in the first turn at a track. They just like to own the "best". It's not a bad thing. It's what they WANT.

Now me? I am not flush with money. If I am shopping for a rifle I want something that is accurate enough to challenge my abilities but not break the bank. I weigh cost vs. benefit. I don't buy something because someone else says its the best. I don't always need the "best". Sometimes "good enough" is good enough.

Lastly.....so many folks get caught up in the "best" they don't take the time to learn to use what they have. You don't have to have "the best" to win matches. You need to know how to use what you have.

</div></div>

Truth ^

 

[Icallem]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

LonewolfUSMC's comment;

"Now me? I am not flush with money. If I am shopping for a rifle I want something that is accurate enough to challenge my abilities but not break the bank. I weigh cost vs. benefit. I don't buy something because someone else says its the best. I don't always need the "best". Sometimes "good enough" is good enough."

This made me step back and look at what I think is good enough. Did I have the bar set to high? Either from what other rifles I have will do or also because I read about all the box stock rifles shooting,,,, well you know.

I changed the scope to another trusted scope(one I took off checked out fine on another rifle), then had the barrel channel opened up some more and while the action was out of the stock, the fellow working on it didn't like the way the recoil lug was bedded, so he redid that(unsure if that was needed, but).

I have found a load that will let this gun shot approximately .75-1.25 MOA most all the time.

For a 'truck gun', that is good enough for me.

So, thanks LonewolfUSMC.

 

[chansen49]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

".because if you try to replace the barrel with a custom one.....you've just added another $400 plus.....and now your at $1500....WAAAYY to much for a rifle that won't shoot 1 inch at 100 yards.
"

But its gonna shoot better with a new custom barrel, now it SHOULD shoot lights out. Trued action, new stock, new barrel. All you haven't done is a trigger. Some get lucky with a 500 dollar rifle that out shoots more expensive rifles but you really shouldn't be disappointed with it either for 500.00

 

[rpk762]

Re: When do you say " I Give"?

Each rifle is different. I am pretty good at finding a good load for a rifle at some point. I can usually get under an inch without too much problem. I have had a few that will not shoot no matter what I have done to the load. I have tried every primer, powder type and bullet I can afford and some will never shoot under an inch. Most of the time I just put a new tube on it and then everything comes into play again. If it is just a deer rifle for a friend most of the time anything under three inches (I just shuddered) is good enough.

I have a 22hornet and all I wanted was one inch at 100 yds. I only use it for PD that are closer than 100yds. I bet I shot over 300rds to find something that would get it down to that point. Russian primers where the key. Now I can get .75 to one inch every time I put it on paper. It does not matter on powder or bullets any more. I just shoot what I have on hand and am good to go. Switching back to any other primer takes it right back to a 3inch rifle.