When shooting groups do you shoot 3 or 5 and why?
- Thread starter 2c1fr
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I know what you mean, and you are right that five shot groops take away the crutch. I've seen a lot of guys shoot three good shots than pull one, so in that sense a five shot groop tells you a lot more. Yet, today I shoot mostly one shot groups. In real life like hunting one shot matters. Try printing out a sheet of paper with twenty dots and shoot twenty one shot groups. For me anyhow it is much harder than it sounds.
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Is this just for zeroing the rifle or just for fun? I don't really shoot groups anymore. If I questioned my zero I'd probably shoot a couple of different three round groups. But normally it's like literally two rounds to zero my rifle if I've had to remove my scope. At 100 meters, 1 shot at a quarter inch square. Mil the distance I'm off, if I am off, adjust, and one more to confirm I'm on the square. Done. Let's shoot some real shit.
Ive seen guys shoot 10 shot sub moa groups and cant hit shit when they need to read wind or dial dope to hit a target. I use three rounds when working up, if its repeatable then Im good.
In the end, my Tikka CTR is modified to hold 3 rounds, so 3 round groups it is.
In the end, my Tikka CTR is modified to hold 3 rounds, so 3 round groups it is.
I shoot ten shot groups. A 10 shot group tells me what I am capable of. To determine what the rifle is capable of, I shoot a 10 shot group and throw out the worst shot and determine group size by the best 9 shots.
It depends.
If Im doing a ladder test, 3 shots on each step might tell me what I want to know. Other times Ill do 5-10 shots of each step, it varies.
But if im shooting a group for to measure accuracy, ill shot atleast 5 shots, and it better do sub MOA or else is back to the loading bench.
I shot a 20 round group from the 100 meter line the last time I was on the range. It was probably the first time Ive done that, and it measured just above 1 MOA. Which is still pretty decent, if you ask me.
If Im doing a ladder test, 3 shots on each step might tell me what I want to know. Other times Ill do 5-10 shots of each step, it varies.
But if im shooting a group for to measure accuracy, ill shot atleast 5 shots, and it better do sub MOA or else is back to the loading bench.
I shot a 20 round group from the 100 meter line the last time I was on the range. It was probably the first time Ive done that, and it measured just above 1 MOA. Which is still pretty decent, if you ask me.
I shoot 3 shots after zeroing to test repeatability, as other member said still at 100 yards I shoot dozens of one shot at different points, after that I go to a longer range and never shoot groups unless I want to confirm zero.
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If I am doing a load development, I load 10, shoot 3 over the magnetospeed, then shoot seven for the group, The magnetospeed will later the POI, but is ultra accurate and dependable for speed documentation. So if I set up 5 or 10 loads for documentating, I attached the Magnetospeed, shoot 3 of each load for speed, remove the magnetospeed and shoot the rest of the groups. I I am not benching for speed, I shoot 5 shot groups for barrel breakin runs, and 10 shot groups otherwise. Most of us know when we pull one or don't do our part even before we see the target results. It is very rarely the ammo that causes a flyer. 
No less than 5, ever.
The more, the better, but if you are checking accuracy on the gun, the more you shoot the more chance there is for human input to skew your testing. Add in things like a heated barrel leading to POI shifts, and I think 5 is a good indicator.
I think LL used to have a sig that said only 5 shot groups count lol
The more, the better, but if you are checking accuracy on the gun, the more you shoot the more chance there is for human input to skew your testing. Add in things like a heated barrel leading to POI shifts, and I think 5 is a good indicator.
I think LL used to have a sig that said only 5 shot groups count lol
3 for rifles with sporter weight barrels, 5 for one's that have heavy barrels. 5 heats the sporters too quickly imo.
I shoot 3 sometimes but more often 5 or 10. Three shot groups will lie to you. They can tell you if a load is bad but often lie to you about a load being good. I have shot too many tiny three shot groups only to have the next one blow up, putting two in the same hole and one out. Or sometimes shooting another tiny group but maybe with a slightly different POI. In the interest of finding out why, I started shooting multiple three shot groups at the same POA. In doing so, I discovered that those "flyers" aren't flyers at all but part of the cone the rifle is going to put all its shots into with a given load. I encourage everyone to try this. That 1/4 MOA rig... isn't...
if I really want to know what I can count on one of my rigs to do, I shoot 10 shots at the same POA. I usually break that down into 3 shots, barrel cool, 3 more, barrel cool and then the last four. If a light barreled rig will keep all 10 in 1 MOA, you really have something. If a heavy barrel rig will keep all 10 in .7 or so that is good stuff too.
John
A three shot group! Three bullets in one hole, is what the rifle/ I can do. I tend to think that if its your reloads, then fine shot 5 shots. It proves the rifle/you/your reloading can put all five shots in one hole. The only time I use more than 3 shots is when I'm figuring out load development. If the rifle likes the load and of course its not going to be in one hole until load is tuned through multiple stages of development. Sure fine, if you can't put all your shots in one hole than I guess ten shots will work and you can subtract the one flyer. That's the, "my dick is bigger than yours" with a 10 shot group mentality.
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5 shot groups because Commandant Cranky told us so. In reality I shoot things not groups. Steel, fire extinguishers, critters, bowling pins, all infinitely more entertaining than burning through all my precious ammo trying to squeeze 'em in that 1/4in dot to me.
I only shoot groups to verify loads and zero , 5 shots. Beyond that, I'm shooting steel or critters.
This has already been touched on, but I shoot different numbers depending on circumstances - examples:
1. Zero the rifle - hopefully only 2 shots
2. Initial Ladder Testing - 3 shots - initial load testing in .3-.5 grain increments over usually no more than 1.5-2.5 grains (I do a TON of research before loading the first ladder for testing)
3. Final Load Refinement - 5 shots - while refining the loads I reduce charge increments to .1-.2 grains to hopefully sit my load smack dab in the middle of an accuracy node where velocity is acceptable. 5 shot groups give me confidence in my load choice that is exponentially more reliable than with 3 shots alone (assuming I don't mess them up with my usual human error).
4. Technique Training - multiple 5 shots or multiple small targets overlayed (similar to the 20 small target test listed above) - the psychology of matching the same hole can be tricky; however, by shooting 10-20 separate, 1 shot groups and overlaying them seems to tell me a lot about my ability and technique.
5. Rifle Accuracy Testing - 10 shots - this number provides me with a solid understanding of my rifle's capability with me behind the trigger (there is ALWAYS an inherent inaccuracy of BOTH the rifle AND the shooter, if only minute).
Tersely, I prefer to shoot at fun things (especially steel) from different shooting positions rather than sit on a bench and punch holes so the fewest shots to obtain my desired results is what I do.
1. Zero the rifle - hopefully only 2 shots
2. Initial Ladder Testing - 3 shots - initial load testing in .3-.5 grain increments over usually no more than 1.5-2.5 grains (I do a TON of research before loading the first ladder for testing)
3. Final Load Refinement - 5 shots - while refining the loads I reduce charge increments to .1-.2 grains to hopefully sit my load smack dab in the middle of an accuracy node where velocity is acceptable. 5 shot groups give me confidence in my load choice that is exponentially more reliable than with 3 shots alone (assuming I don't mess them up with my usual human error).
4. Technique Training - multiple 5 shots or multiple small targets overlayed (similar to the 20 small target test listed above) - the psychology of matching the same hole can be tricky; however, by shooting 10-20 separate, 1 shot groups and overlaying them seems to tell me a lot about my ability and technique.
5. Rifle Accuracy Testing - 10 shots - this number provides me with a solid understanding of my rifle's capability with me behind the trigger (there is ALWAYS an inherent inaccuracy of BOTH the rifle AND the shooter, if only minute).
Tersely, I prefer to shoot at fun things (especially steel) from different shooting positions rather than sit on a bench and punch holes so the fewest shots to obtain my desired results is what I do.
I shoot 1 shot. If its on I am a god. If it sucks it is the rifle's fault.
^^^ He said different positions.
^^^ He said different positions.
I mostly shoot 5 shot groups. In the ARs, I guess I shoot 5/2 doing final load development. 1st and 7th on one aiming dot and 2-6 on another for best group.
With only 3, one can get lucky here and there. Much harder with 5 to have a deviant group.
With only 3, one can get lucky here and there. Much harder with 5 to have a deviant group.
3 round groups in round robin for load work
2-5 rnds for zeroing/confirming
done with group shooting, dot drills or targets at distance from there out
2-5 rnds for zeroing/confirming
done with group shooting, dot drills or targets at distance from there out
Always a minimum of 5 but more often than not, I shoot 10 round groups to really understand if I am doing well.
Lately, I have abandoned shooting groups and am focusing on proficiency with dot drills which IMHO are quite difficult and really exposes weaknesses in technique.
Lately, I have abandoned shooting groups and am focusing on proficiency with dot drills which IMHO are quite difficult and really exposes weaknesses in technique.
I shoot 5 shots minimum. I prefer 10 actually, but 5 shots is the bare minimum. I'm not trying to get the smallest group size to brag about... I'm trying to see what the rifle and myself are consistently capable of. Anything more than 10 shots would require letting the barrel cool off some more before giving it another go.
If it's something like an old WW2 rifle with iron sights, I might cheat a little and use a tripod with a pig saddle to try and get as much stability as possible for repeatability since those front iron sights are usually a tad too wide for me to get the exact point of aim for a fair comparison.
If it's something like an old WW2 rifle with iron sights, I might cheat a little and use a tripod with a pig saddle to try and get as much stability as possible for repeatability since those front iron sights are usually a tad too wide for me to get the exact point of aim for a fair comparison.
This.
Or I pull the 1st, and put the last four together.
For groups, 3 isn't enough IMO.
Plus 1 for what SMTGWKD and morganlamprecht said. In addition to dot drills I use a variation by Thomas haugland (THLR.no) which has irregular shapes at 1.4, 1.0, 3/4 & 1/2 MOA. These targets are grey, low contrast, and are good to change up the type of target you shoot at. Still one shot on each target. I will occasionally shoot 2 shots in under 4sec to check fundamentals.
