When to switch from 4350 to 4831 in the .30-06?

[WB300]

Let me hear your thoughts and experiences please...

I have H4350, H4831, and H4831sc. I know H4350 is the preferred from these, but my reloading books all include H4831 or sc for heavier bullets. I just don't hear much love for 4831 in the 06. I'm working up a load for hunting whitetail deer with the 178 Amax through a 26 1/2" thin barrel. Which powder would you choose and why?

I'm trying to learn more about the relationship between longer barrel and slower powder to minimize pressure and maximize velocity.

At what point (barrel length, bullet weight....etc) would it be better to use the slower H4831 if at all???


Thanks in advance,

Bill

 

[pawprint2]

Any of the loads listed by the major mfgs. in their loading guides are pressure tested and safe to use (within SAMMI specs), 4831 can usually give you a better case fill than some of the faster burn rates. Generally a fuller case delivers a more consistent load. So far as the longer tube/slower burn rate higher velocity-all that is true, however; it is very tube dependent. Two 27in tubes side by side can and do vary quite a bit on velocity, as they demonstrate their own "personality". With that said, I would bet on the 4350 to deliver the best accuracy with the 178 in an 06. But as you have several good powders-the real answer is try all three, it is the only real way to determine what your rifle likes-and remember, tell your wife it's common knowledge that it takes at least a full day if not several days at the range to work up a good load!

 

[WB300]

I hear ya pawprint. All good points. She actually likes shooting just as much as me. She gets mad if I don't bring her along. Kinda makes it tough to shoot with the guys and let the language go down the gutter, but I'm not complaining.

I think I might change the title to attract more responses (opinions). I guess I'm looking more for what reloaders feel is the change-over point to a slower powder.

I've read here in the past that thinner barrels have a smaller accuracy node and can be more finicky to find that node. I'm running a Shilen #2 contour on my hunting rig. I've also read in the past that generally speaking, it will be easier to find a node with a slower powder than a faster powder. Not sure how much of this is true, but I seem to remember that's what some people have found. I guess I'm looking for more expansion on this also.



Bill

 

[gewehr]

Try rl-17 instead, I have tried 4831 (both h and imr), I found speed and accuracy just weren't there for mid to heavy bullets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GhostFace]

If you can get H4350 easily then try it, it's a damn good powder for '06. Don't over look IMR 4350 either. I've read H4831 and H4831sc both give better velocity than 4350 but it is a little dirty compared to those two and not as accurate.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

H-4831 is a significantly slower burning powder than H-4350.

H-4831 is not well suited to bullets below 190gr...

As a general rule, above 200gr, H-4831 will yield better velocity than H-4350 without pressure signs...If all you can find is H-4831, then your decision has been made for you.

 

[pawprint2]

Tx_Flyboy, I must disagree with your assessment of 200 grain and above , 4831 yielding better velocity than 4350, and staying within SAFE SAMMI pressures. In fact, I took a quick look at my Sierra Manual, or the 175SMK, 180SMK, 190SMK, 200SMK, Sierra not able to get a higher velocity with 4831 than with 4350, and, in fact, staying within SAMMI safe pressures, both powders were able to deliver the same velocity. As in every case the 4831 required more powder, the greater case fill, generally speaking delivers greater consistency. It should be noted all of the Sierra data was tested with a 26in tube. I'm not sure the slower burn rate will make that big a difference, if any, in one extra inch, as the two velocities were identical at 26inches, I fairly sure there wouldn't be any significant difference in one extra inch. There is no question 4831 is a great powder, as you say if you can find it. As a matter of fact, if you do find it, get all you can afford, as it has a lot of applications 300 win mag comes to my mind.
When one compares Hornady loading data, with that of Sierra you'll find that 4831 was able to deliver, in some cases a slightly higher velocity than when loading 4350-But it should also be noted Hornady data is derived with a 22inch tube, while Sierra's are recorded with a 26 in tube. I've referenced Sierra's data, as it was only one inch off that of the OP's rifle in question.

 

[WB300]

In comparing Sierra to Lyman books, it's frustrating to interpret max load/velocity as the two books are sometimes 12%-15% different. Of course I will work up and pay attention to pressure signs. My main goal is accuracy, but I don't want to rob myself of velocity since I have both H4350 and H4831sc to choose from.

Thank you for your responses.

Bill

 

[RHunter]

I'm trying to learn more about the relationship between longer barrel and slower powder to minimize pressure and maximize velocity.

At what point (barrel length, bullet weight....etc) would it be better to use the slower H4831 if at all???

I dont use H4350 for anything over 190 grains and accuracy is good, but VN160 is even better. Pressure gets a bit excessive with the H4350 with my loads over 190's. It is just a little too fast and peaks too quickly. I don't like H4831 for the 06 because I think it is too slow, even for 230 grain bullets.

The best powder I have found so far to push the envelope and give me 215 grain loads that are still supersonic at 1500 yards is Reloader 19 and IMR4831. Imr4831 being the better for 230 grain bullets.

If you had H4350 and IMR4831, you could shoot any weight bullet you wanted out of the 06 from 110 grains for varmints and 230 grain bullets for large game or punching steel at long distance. It is not hard to get within 150 fps of 300 Win Mag velocities with a 30-06.

My disclaimer: I am shooting a braked 28" barrel and I have a Serengeti chamber and I load to just off the lands. I also load to the rifle's potential and I allow the brass and primer to let me know when things are getting a little to hot. The books are so all over the place that they are good for a starting point but I work up from there to the last node before things get a little too hot.

 

[supercorndogs]

In comparing Sierra to Lyman books, it's frustrating to interpret max load/velocity as the two books are sometimes 12%-15% different. Of course I will work up and pay attention to pressure signs. My main goal is accuracy, but I don't want to rob myself of velocity since I have both H4350 and H4831sc to choose from.

Thank you for your responses.

Bill

there is no way to determine the maximum charge except for working it up in your gun. there is no way to know what powder is accurate in your gun but trying some. some guns just dont like some powders. i have a 700p 300wm shoots every bullet i tried under an inch with 4831sc. 178 a max 208 a max 190 nosler 220 nolser 210 berger. i could not get it to shoot under 2 inches with any of those bullets with another powder. if i tried the second powder first i might have re barreled or sold the gun. some people are having great luck with powder 2. just because my gun doent like it is not bad powder. just because my gun likes 4831sc does make it better than powder 2.

 

[WB300]

So I chose H4350 and loaded some rounds in .5 grain increments up to 57.5 to check for pressure signs. To my surprise, even 57.5 didn't have a sticky bolt lift or flat primer, so I should be good on pressure. I stopped at 57.5 because that is the point where the Remington case is full (no sound when shaking) but I wasn't compressing (hearing crunching). Hodgdon shows max as 58.0 grains, but I would like to know a ballpark velocity before trying to squeek out more. Next I'll start an OCW workup.

Anyone have any idea what ballpark velocity would be from a 26 1/2" tube?

 

[pawprint2]

I'm guessing over 2900 fps. When you run it let us know.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Bottom line is when you find a max load with any given powder, and notice there's room for a good bit more powder in the case, you should consider trying the next slower burn speed.

 

[WB300]

Thanks folks.

I'll start with H4350 since max book load puts me right at max case capacity, without pressure signs . Then I will OCW from there.

Bill