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When you're testing ammo/lots...
- Thread starter oldnewguy
- Start date
Too often shooters don't test and accumulate enough data before making a decision.
Not all lots of match ammo are consistent from box-to-box. One box may produce results that are quite good, the next may have a few or more outliers or rounds that are inconsistent.
Never make the mistake of thinking that the best groups produced in testing will be representative of the lot in general.
Not all lots of match ammo are consistent from box-to-box. One box may produce results that are quite good, the next may have a few or more outliers or rounds that are inconsistent.
Never make the mistake of thinking that the best groups produced in testing will be representative of the lot in general.
Hey from one oldnewguy to another, I've got the same question. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't give a certain brand/lot a chance.... but I also wonder, for instance, if I buy a bunch of Wolf Match Extra to practice with, what are the odds that a different batch will make a big difference? Of course I know the answer from a technical standpoint: who knows? But are some manufacturers more consistent than others?
I'd also like to ask if anyone actually sorts rounds within a batch by weighing them on a powder scale and try to separate them by weight?
Sorry, I was only talking about .22 LR, but I assumed we were talking rimfire. Sorry.
First, yes to the question about some manufacturers SEEMINGLY have better consistency in their high end offerings. CenterX comes to mind.
When I buy a new lot, it's definitely a crap shoot, but I buy 5000 rounds. Then I open 50 of the individual boxes and take a round from each one, replacing the missing round and closing the box back up with one from a dedicated box. I shoot the 50 and pray for good groups. Sometimes it's obvious with the second magazine that this ammo is not right for this rifle. That's ok...my LGS will take the good stuff as trade and we do this sort of thing once in a while. Or I might keep it for plinking ammo...which is all i really do anyway since I don't like to compete except for beers and bragging rights. Or I might relegate it to the 10/22's or I might give it to the families youngsters to go shoot red eared sliders.
If that box of random 50 pulled from that random 5000 rounds does shoot good, I try to find more of that lot. I have never found more of that lot.
I only have 2 B14R's. Those are my accurate 22LR's. I have several 10/22's, a Ruger American, an old Springfield M2 22LR some old Remingtons and an old Winchester and 3 old Browning autos. None of the old rifles are quite as accurate as the B14R's except that Springfield and mostly collect dust. I do keep them cleaned and lubed. Anyways, I'm not that great of a shooter is my point and do not have the real high end 22's.
As for weighing rounds, there is documented evidence that measuring rim thickness is worth doing. l don't. I don't weigh, I don't reshape. I just shoot stuff. Again, I don't formally compete. Fuck that. I like to shoot so I don't want to make it competitive and start working at it too much.
There are some true 22LR experts here that have tons of write ups on this forum. One is @justin amateur
EDIT: I mostly shoot CCI Standard Velocity. It's real consistent for me. I am shooting the heads of grasshoppers at 40 yards with 9/10 hits. Now, if I am going to shoot against my brother for beers, the CenterX comes out and he doesn't have any...HAHAHA!
When I buy a new lot, it's definitely a crap shoot, but I buy 5000 rounds. Then I open 50 of the individual boxes and take a round from each one, replacing the missing round and closing the box back up with one from a dedicated box. I shoot the 50 and pray for good groups. Sometimes it's obvious with the second magazine that this ammo is not right for this rifle. That's ok...my LGS will take the good stuff as trade and we do this sort of thing once in a while. Or I might keep it for plinking ammo...which is all i really do anyway since I don't like to compete except for beers and bragging rights. Or I might relegate it to the 10/22's or I might give it to the families youngsters to go shoot red eared sliders.
If that box of random 50 pulled from that random 5000 rounds does shoot good, I try to find more of that lot. I have never found more of that lot.
I only have 2 B14R's. Those are my accurate 22LR's. I have several 10/22's, a Ruger American, an old Springfield M2 22LR some old Remingtons and an old Winchester and 3 old Browning autos. None of the old rifles are quite as accurate as the B14R's except that Springfield and mostly collect dust. I do keep them cleaned and lubed. Anyways, I'm not that great of a shooter is my point and do not have the real high end 22's.
As for weighing rounds, there is documented evidence that measuring rim thickness is worth doing. l don't. I don't weigh, I don't reshape. I just shoot stuff. Again, I don't formally compete. Fuck that. I like to shoot so I don't want to make it competitive and start working at it too much.
There are some true 22LR experts here that have tons of write ups on this forum. One is @justin amateur
EDIT: I mostly shoot CCI Standard Velocity. It's real consistent for me. I am shooting the heads of grasshoppers at 40 yards with 9/10 hits. Now, if I am going to shoot against my brother for beers, the CenterX comes out and he doesn't have any...HAHAHA!
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I shoot 100 rounds per lot before making my decision. I have access to a range with 200 and 300 yard berms. I fire 10 round groups, capturing velocity data for each lot. I look for groups that are 0.2 mils vertical dispersion at 200 yards. That is “great” for me with my bolt guns. I have found some ammo that will hold that tight with my semi auto, but they will open up a tenth or two occasionally.
I ordered 3 lots of eley match last week, 100 rounds of each. After fouling the gun with some eley team (same lube), I went through one box of each, making notes on vertical dispersion. It was windy that day, so I wasn’t worried about horizontal as much. Two were definitely better than the third. I shot the second boxes of the top lots, and one emerged the winner. It was an expensive trip ($130 worth of ammo), but I bought 7,500 rounds of the top lot. That should last me a year or so. This was shot using my Kidd super grade.
I ordered 3 lots of eley match last week, 100 rounds of each. After fouling the gun with some eley team (same lube), I went through one box of each, making notes on vertical dispersion. It was windy that day, so I wasn’t worried about horizontal as much. Two were definitely better than the third. I shot the second boxes of the top lots, and one emerged the winner. It was an expensive trip ($130 worth of ammo), but I bought 7,500 rounds of the top lot. That should last me a year or so. This was shot using my Kidd super grade.
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Wow, thanks Aftermath! You make very good points. I've shot competition many years ago, but it was international skeet. My rifle skills are pretty good, or so I thought until I started shooting my various .22 LR's at 50 yards, hoping to shoot "one hole" groups. I'm not competing at this point and may never find a place close to Fredericksburg VA to do so, but my father was a competition pistol shooter and I got the bug. Not necessarily to beat someone else, but to shoot the best I can. And maybe do it well enough to brag, lol.
My Ruger 10/22 with a Kidd barrel LOVES CCI 35, standard velocity. So does my RPRF with a Shaw barrel, but the Ruger like the expensive stuff like SK Rifle Match.
I don't want to spend a fortune on practice ammo, but I really want to know what my rifle (and I) can do with the right stuff.
I've got a bunch of Wolf that my CZ seems to like, but I think the misses are on me, not the ammunition or rifle...
Yesterday at 50 yds with no wind...
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For PRS/NRL usage…I do 10 rounds for foulers, 2x 5 round groups at 50, 2x 5 round groups at 100. From there I narrow down my finalists and do a test at 200 and 300 to look for consistency.
Make sure to chrono all my results and try to make a decision within a 50 round box. I just don’t have the bankroll to do more than that.
Make sure to chrono all my results and try to make a decision within a 50 round box. I just don’t have the bankroll to do more than that.
You just reminded me that I need to get my Labradar out and use it. I bought it for my centerfire loads, but never think about it when I'm testing rimfire ammo. Doh!!!
Right now, I'm limited to my 50yd range here at the house, but at least I could see SD and ES.
BUT, I should have been using the radar....
Similar to what I do.
OP in King George VA is the MVGC club that has PRS/MARS matches.
I don’t see how lot testing can be done on your own unless you have a good local dealer. By the time I get something shipped in and tested it’s sold out.
I am going to the thought of buying a 5000 case of SKLR or Center X. If it doesn’t shoot well then I’ll just blame the ammo on my misses.
I’m not in a position to buy 50 round boxes and then hope I get a good series of tests. 500 bricks also go so fast that it’s the same issue with 50 round boxes.
I am going to the thought of buying a 5000 case of SKLR or Center X. If it doesn’t shoot well then I’ll just blame the ammo on my misses.
I’m not in a position to buy 50 round boxes and then hope I get a good series of tests. 500 bricks also go so fast that it’s the same issue with 50 round boxes.
Thanks! I'll check them out! I searched for matches in Virginia and it came up with zero results. I must have been doing something wrong!
That was always my problem and why I buy 5k or 10k at a time. Luckily, though, my neighbor/friend is also the owner of my LGS. If I buy ammo that won't give me the performance I am looking for, he will sell it for me and not take much for doing so. In fact, we usually both end up with some profit or break even, especially if I was able to get stuff in with free shipping. Even now, 22LR flies off the shelves.
I forgot to mention that as I did it I used my tuner to tune the load. I tune at 100 but check at all the other ranges. I buy a case at a time and it is what it is but gets tuned. I buy better ammo so the chance of getting a dud is lower.
Here are some places to look for the coming year. NVGC is real close for you but there are others around you like Quantico and Cavalier down near Richmond only an hour away. All depends on how far you want to drive.
Modern American Rimfire Series
Pushing Precision Rimfire to a new level.
modernamericanrimfireseries.com
Precision Rifle Series - Atlantic Coast Rimfire Region
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.
www.precisionrifleseries.com
1 1/2 box per lot max, foulers and 3 5rd groups at 50. SD and ES averages recorded. The other half of the box at 100. Take the time to support the rifle carefully, as if you're shooting a benchrest match...to minimize shooter input and mechanical variables. 50yds is only to record averages, groups can be to close to call at that distance. 100yd groups sort them out pretty well. The best 2 or 3 lots go on to 200yds. Too much lot testing is laborious and can lead to errors on your end that skew the results. Not to mention too much time, now the lot you love is sold out from just a week prior!
Cartridge testing, everyone has a favored method.
2 shot groups, 3, 5, 10, 20, 50 even.
I stopped using groups as a method of testing.
I now shoot for score.
Will the cartridges hit where I aim, or not?
If not, how far from center did it impact?
Number of cartridges to test?
I like 100 shots fired.
If you are into statistics, if you are going to buy a case, 5000 rounds,
in order to achieve an 95% level of confidence
that you made the right decision, the number of shots needed is 357.
Most of us are happy with 10 or 20 shots, good enough.
But imagine having to send 7 boxes of rimfire to know
that 95 times out of 100 that you ran the test, you'd get the same results.
The other 5 times, you'd produce something different.
2 shot groups, 3, 5, 10, 20, 50 even.
I stopped using groups as a method of testing.
I now shoot for score.
Will the cartridges hit where I aim, or not?
If not, how far from center did it impact?
Number of cartridges to test?
I like 100 shots fired.
If you are into statistics, if you are going to buy a case, 5000 rounds,
in order to achieve an 95% level of confidence
that you made the right decision, the number of shots needed is 357.
Most of us are happy with 10 or 20 shots, good enough.
But imagine having to send 7 boxes of rimfire to know
that 95 times out of 100 that you ran the test, you'd get the same results.
The other 5 times, you'd produce something different.
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Same here.... I wish I had a LGS that had ANY high end .22 LR on the shelf.
Thanks Rob! I'll check them out. I'm looking for a place to practice too and not just shoot in matches. There is a really nice club locally but the waiting list is 4+ years and membership is very expensive. I don't want to pay so much for a membership that I feel guilty if I don't shoot...Here are some places to look for the coming year. NVGC is real close for you but there are others around you like Quantico and Cavalier down near Richmond only an hour away. All depends on how far you want to drive.
Modern American Rimfire Series
Pushing Precision Rimfire to a new level.
Precision Rifle Series - Atlantic Coast Rimfire Region
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.www.precisionrifleseries.com
Again, I really appreciate the info, driving an hour is no big deal to me!
I think I'll drive over to the NVGC and have a look around. Membership fees are reasonable, just have to find a sponsor. I want to wander around and get a feel for the place and see how busy it is on a perfect day like today.
No worries, I have a 50 yard range in my front yard and shoot almost every day, but what I don't have is more distance, or a place to test my centerfire loads. So NVGC might be the ticket, but I'm going to check out as many as possible before I join anywhere. Plus, I want to watch some matches in person and not look at videos. From my competition skeet days, I think I know the atmosphere, but I've never been to any .22 competitions.
My best friend is their range officer who handles the new guy walk throughs. Let me talk to him and maybe you can check it out with him sometime. He is also the owner of MARS and runs the matches at NVGC.
I'm really looking forward to meeting him and learning more about MARS too. That seems like to be exactly what I'm looking for!
Do you notice much difference between 100, 200 and 300 yards?
As in do you often find ammo that is amazing at 100 but falls to pieces after that?
200 and on very hard to test rimfire IMO. So much affects the bullet. If you can get any sort of legible groups I’d be pleased lol. 50 yards groups can be all touching and shooting great. 100 yards can double that size or more. 200 and your looking at a 5 inch group.
Testing every cartridge is the only way to be sure.
No, seriously. I’m convinced that rimfire enthusiasts just enjoy “lot testing” and carping about SD numbers. No one goes and does any “productive” shooting. Just test, test, test.
No, seriously. I’m convinced that rimfire enthusiasts just enjoy “lot testing” and carping about SD numbers. No one goes and does any “productive” shooting. Just test, test, test.
Wellllll......some folks are just good at testing. Others are good at other stuff, like making weird accusations about good testers. And Shit.
I hate testing, it's tedious and frustrating, not least because I haven't been able to buy decent ammo in reasonable quantities that means I keep needing to re do it.
I would just shoot CCI SV and be happy with it but shot a match recently where there were more than 1 sub MOA targets at 100+ yards, and if I want to win I need to be able to hit them consistently.
I enjoyed competitive shooting more back when it was my CZ 452 and a MOA, SFP scope. Unfortunately that cat is well out of the bag.
I don't bother past 200yards, as thankfully most matches don't go past that for me.
The 150-200yard mark is usually where it starts to fall apart in my experience, I'm trying to find out what accuracy people are actually getting at those distances vs cherry picked groups.
I shot this 20 round group at 156 yards in a bit of wind. The vertical was basically as much as the ammo ES suggested it would be and the horizontal was wind.
I'm thinking this is about as good as can be expected.
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Some do but not a lot luckily. Funny part is it was usually the most expensive ammo. Not sure if they are made more for the 50 yard BR circuit or what but they did bad out deep. Most expensive ammo I use is Center X and usually use SK Long Range.
I test out to 400 yards as that is where matches go to around me so I want to know what's going on. Yes there are more things going on when you get out farther with a .22 but I try to do it on calmer days where I know where the wind is coming from and what it is doing.
1-2 moa is usually more than enough for matches and where I look to be. I tune the rifle at 100 as there is less influence from the wind and can usually get under an inch pretty easy. Then going to 200 I shoot on a 6" plate at my range and if they are inside that by a good margin I am happy and you can see the accuracy. Then go out to the 8" plate at 300 and then the 10" at 400. Again doing this on the calmer days so wind isn't a major effect.
I have 2 bricks left of my lot of SK Long Range. I have a case waiting to test. Rob, I do like you do. I check( or adjust ) my tune at 100yds, then go to 200yds (only having to move 10 makes in or out.) I have done with 3 different lots, this will be the 4th. I then check my everyday ammo, Eley Contact and see if it shoots good with the new tune. So far 4 lot of Contact has shot great with the tune. Contact shoots very close to my dope for SKLR.
if your gun likes XYZ ammo, a tuner can get it shooting close to what the old lot did. I have done it 3 times.
Roanoke VA has long range matches. https://roanokerifle.com/matches-and-events/long-range-22lr-match/
I have EC V2 tuners that Vudoo installed when I got the barreled actions but on another I had it threaded 5/8-24 and used an ATS tuner you can see below which is an easy install on existing threads.
Those with Tuners, how do you guys approach finding the right ammo with tuners? Just buy whatever you want an tune or find what groups best then tune that ammo?
