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Gunsmithing Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
- Thread starter OnyxSkyDV
- Start date
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Check pawn shops.
They can and are found for $325-$400
Older the better
Check pawn shops.
They can and are found for $325-$400
Older the better
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Yes you would be better off to just buy used ones.They can be had alot cheaper than what you can get actions for.
Yes you would be better off to just buy used ones.They can be had alot cheaper than what you can get actions for.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
I get them from my loacl pawn shops. I have bought several for $250 to $350 for the whole rifle usually with a cheap scope and sell the takeoff parts. Gunshows here are a little to pricy. also make friends with the pawn shops around your area. I have 2 that call me any time someone comes in with a something they think I may want. They give me a break becasue I buy so many from them. Also if you want to practice try mauser actions. They are cheap and plenty of parts out there to build on. It is good training and a good solid action.
I get them from my loacl pawn shops. I have bought several for $250 to $350 for the whole rifle usually with a cheap scope and sell the takeoff parts. Gunshows here are a little to pricy. also make friends with the pawn shops around your area. I have 2 that call me any time someone comes in with a something they think I may want. They give me a break becasue I buy so many from them. Also if you want to practice try mauser actions. They are cheap and plenty of parts out there to build on. It is good training and a good solid action.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
If you live in the south, Academy sporting goods sells new Remington 700's, the ADL for $350 new
If you live in the south, Academy sporting goods sells new Remington 700's, the ADL for $350 new
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Maybe consider giving this guy a call.
Blued and SS ready to go NIB. Already blueprinted though so prolly won't fit for what your wanting to do.
Good luck.
Greg Young
Southwest Florida Marine Service
Southern Precision Rifles
4065 10th Ave S.E.
Naples, FL 34117
(239)289-2338
Maybe consider giving this guy a call.
Blued and SS ready to go NIB. Already blueprinted though so prolly won't fit for what your wanting to do.
Good luck.
Greg Young
Southwest Florida Marine Service
Southern Precision Rifles
4065 10th Ave S.E.
Naples, FL 34117
(239)289-2338
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Thanks HuntersEdge and Chad!
I wish I was in Texas, as I would roll over and get one from Academy pretty quickly. I suspect the shipping and FFL transfer to AZ would bump up the cost a bit.
Chad, thanks for the info, not a bad deal, but I definitely want to learn to do the truing work myself, even if it's to convince me to go to the pros when it really matters.
Cheers all, thanks for all the input!
Onyx
Thanks HuntersEdge and Chad!
I wish I was in Texas, as I would roll over and get one from Academy pretty quickly. I suspect the shipping and FFL transfer to AZ would bump up the cost a bit.
Chad, thanks for the info, not a bad deal, but I definitely want to learn to do the truing work myself, even if it's to convince me to go to the pros when it really matters.
Cheers all, thanks for all the input!
Onyx
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
you might give gunbrooker a try, saw a rem 700SPS going for 430
you might give gunbrooker a try, saw a rem 700SPS going for 430
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onyx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting to further some gunsmithing practice, and want to try my hand at truing a 700. Can I get one cheaper than a new rifle at cabellas for ~$600 or an action from brownells for $500?
Thanks!
Onyx </div></div>
The local Walmart store and Scheele's Outdoors in Minnesota offer the complete Remington M700 package with:Remington 3-9x-40mm scope and synthetic stock for $420 (+tax). Granted the scope and stock probably are not for the average marksman here, but could be used on a future youth build project, and you'd have your M700 SA.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onyx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting to further some gunsmithing practice, and want to try my hand at truing a 700. Can I get one cheaper than a new rifle at cabellas for ~$600 or an action from brownells for $500?
Thanks!
Onyx </div></div>
The local Walmart store and Scheele's Outdoors in Minnesota offer the complete Remington M700 package with:Remington 3-9x-40mm scope and synthetic stock for $420 (+tax). Granted the scope and stock probably are not for the average marksman here, but could be used on a future youth build project, and you'd have your M700 SA.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Brownells has a sale on Remy 700 actions starting at $369. You can get even more off if you have a code.
Brownells Rem 700 actions
Brownells has a sale on Remy 700 actions starting at $369. You can get even more off if you have a code.
Brownells Rem 700 actions
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KPK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have a coupon code by chance, FL? </div></div>
From ar15.com Brownells industry thread: until 21 March, 2011, you can use the LE3 source code to get 10% off any order over $150
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KPK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have a coupon code by chance, FL? </div></div>
From ar15.com Brownells industry thread: until 21 March, 2011, you can use the LE3 source code to get 10% off any order over $150
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Noticed here on SH in another thread someone shared where they sell new Remington Model 700 rifles complete for $349:
http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=co...=0345-02662-431
Noticed here on SH in another thread someone shared where they sell new Remington Model 700 rifles complete for $349:
http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=co...=0345-02662-431
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
get some sort of FFL
A C&R price for the .308 boltface, SA is around $350, not 500
get some sort of FFL
A C&R price for the .308 boltface, SA is around $350, not 500
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
You can true my action for me
I'm in arizona. How do you plan to do the truing, by hand or with a lathe. i thought about figuring out how to do that myself, but haven't totally convinced myself to buy the tools.
You can true my action for me
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PrestonG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can true my action for me
I'm in arizona. How do you plan to do the truing, by hand or with a lathe. i thought about figuring out how to do that myself, but haven't totally convinced myself to buy the tools. </div></div>
I never realized what it takes to do that until I saw this series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n191F9c1YiQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Kinda makes that $200.00 + seem like you are getting a deal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PrestonG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can true my action for me
I never realized what it takes to do that until I saw this series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n191F9c1YiQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Kinda makes that $200.00 + seem like you are getting a deal.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area.
Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Detailed information on truing a model 700 is at:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2434569&nt=2&page=1
Detailed information on truing a model 700 is at:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2434569&nt=2&page=1
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
my head just exploded.
i never realized it was this complicated. Obviously i am no gunsmith, and know when to send work off, but that truly is fascinating. Looks like i need to send my action off soon before these smiths get "smart" and bump up the price
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
my head just exploded.
i never realized it was this complicated. Obviously i am no gunsmith, and know when to send work off, but that truly is fascinating. Looks like i need to send my action off soon before these smiths get "smart" and bump up the price
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
All due respect, but I'm gonna disagree on this one.
I believe whatever you do, do not shorten your bolt when moving your handle forward, this would involve needing a longer cocking piece. If you keep the same cocking piece and just machine the catch back you reduce your firing pin throw which in turn reduces momentum to the primer thus has the potential to cause ignition problems. If you shortened the back of your bolt you would need to make a new cocking piece, a new shroud as well as re-machine the cocking ramp. You would have more into it than a custom action.
You can move the handle forward to set up proper primary extraction. This will only increase function, the only ill effect will be a cosmetic one, which is a greater gap from the back of the handle to the front of the shroud. If this bothers you, you can make a shroud that overhangs the bolt body. Even if you did have a very fine gap line, once your bolt is closed in the action some of the gap is back, depending on the thread pitch. Remington runs 13TPI which in a quarter turn equates to .019231, just under twenty thousandths. I believe it's the Alpine that run a fine thread, which would have much less movement in a quarter turn.
Timing a bolt handle is more than just moving it forward, it is also a matter of clocking as well as many other angles to look at. I personally will take function over cosmetics. That said, I do not like to sacrifice cosmetics either.
Here is how and why I do what I do when I am truing/timing an action.
First I insert a toolsteel truing mandrel with pilots into the receiver, then the receiver is placed in a 16C collet chuck which is fastened to a custom SSG back plate which has full angular and rotational adjustment. Next all of the angular ajustment is taken out of the receiver.Then the rotational run out is removed, then they are both double checked again, now the mandrel is removed. There is no stress on the action while machining therefore when the action is removed the machining is still true. Then the face of the receiver is remachined as well as the locking embuttments. The threads are then single cut true with the raceway. Now the receiver is removed, next I remove the bolt handle off the remington bolt.I then chuck the bolt body, get the bolt running true then single point remachine the bolt face and as Chad mentioned the bolts do usually run pretty true, but I feel the surface finish of the bolt face can be greatly improved upon. Therefore while everything is dialed in I re-machine the locking embuttments on the bolt to reduce lapping time.
After this the existing bolt handle or a new threaded bolt handle is attached by tig welding with emphesis on primary extraction.
Experience does not come quick or easy. There are so many angles to a bolt action rifle that many never realize, I am facinated by these things, so I eat and sleep them and hope to keep on aiming for perfection.
All this said, there are many ways to go about truing an action,I have trued actions many different ways over the years. I have come to this place mostly because it makes sense in my mind from a machinist stand point. Not that you are necessarily going to be seeing any more accuracy on the firing line than any other action truing processes, but I need to have confidence in my mind that what I am doing is making a difference.There are hundreds of accuracy minded gunsmiths here that are building awesome accurate rifles and I am not trying to take away from their talents. I do not believe I am beyond improvement and will keep striving to improve. I'm doing what I love and I love what I'm doing. I am all for the hobby guys that want to do their own work and would love to put some videos or books together at some point in the future that shares some of my learnings and why I do things the way I do.
308nate
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
All due respect, but I'm gonna disagree on this one.
I believe whatever you do, do not shorten your bolt when moving your handle forward, this would involve needing a longer cocking piece. If you keep the same cocking piece and just machine the catch back you reduce your firing pin throw which in turn reduces momentum to the primer thus has the potential to cause ignition problems. If you shortened the back of your bolt you would need to make a new cocking piece, a new shroud as well as re-machine the cocking ramp. You would have more into it than a custom action.
You can move the handle forward to set up proper primary extraction. This will only increase function, the only ill effect will be a cosmetic one, which is a greater gap from the back of the handle to the front of the shroud. If this bothers you, you can make a shroud that overhangs the bolt body. Even if you did have a very fine gap line, once your bolt is closed in the action some of the gap is back, depending on the thread pitch. Remington runs 13TPI which in a quarter turn equates to .019231, just under twenty thousandths. I believe it's the Alpine that run a fine thread, which would have much less movement in a quarter turn.
Timing a bolt handle is more than just moving it forward, it is also a matter of clocking as well as many other angles to look at. I personally will take function over cosmetics. That said, I do not like to sacrifice cosmetics either.
Here is how and why I do what I do when I am truing/timing an action.
First I insert a toolsteel truing mandrel with pilots into the receiver, then the receiver is placed in a 16C collet chuck which is fastened to a custom SSG back plate which has full angular and rotational adjustment. Next all of the angular ajustment is taken out of the receiver.Then the rotational run out is removed, then they are both double checked again, now the mandrel is removed. There is no stress on the action while machining therefore when the action is removed the machining is still true. Then the face of the receiver is remachined as well as the locking embuttments. The threads are then single cut true with the raceway. Now the receiver is removed, next I remove the bolt handle off the remington bolt.I then chuck the bolt body, get the bolt running true then single point remachine the bolt face and as Chad mentioned the bolts do usually run pretty true, but I feel the surface finish of the bolt face can be greatly improved upon. Therefore while everything is dialed in I re-machine the locking embuttments on the bolt to reduce lapping time.
After this the existing bolt handle or a new threaded bolt handle is attached by tig welding with emphesis on primary extraction.
Experience does not come quick or easy. There are so many angles to a bolt action rifle that many never realize, I am facinated by these things, so I eat and sleep them and hope to keep on aiming for perfection.
All this said, there are many ways to go about truing an action,I have trued actions many different ways over the years. I have come to this place mostly because it makes sense in my mind from a machinist stand point. Not that you are necessarily going to be seeing any more accuracy on the firing line than any other action truing processes, but I need to have confidence in my mind that what I am doing is making a difference.There are hundreds of accuracy minded gunsmiths here that are building awesome accurate rifles and I am not trying to take away from their talents. I do not believe I am beyond improvement and will keep striving to improve. I'm doing what I love and I love what I'm doing. I am all for the hobby guys that want to do their own work and would love to put some videos or books together at some point in the future that shares some of my learnings and why I do things the way I do.
308nate
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308nate</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
All due respect, but I'm gonna disagree on this one.
I believe whatever you do, do not shorten your bolt when moving your handle forward, this would involve needing a longer cocking piece. If you keep the same cocking piece and just machine the catch back you reduce your firing pin throw which in turn reduces momentum to the primer thus has the potential to cause ignition problems. If you shortened the back of your bolt you would need to make a new cocking piece, a new shroud as well as re-machine the cocking ramp. You would have more into it than a custom action.
You can move the handle forward to set up proper primary extraction. This will only increase function, the only ill effect will be a cosmetic one, which is a greater gap from the back of the handle to the front of the shroud. If this bothers you, you can make a shroud that overhangs the bolt body. Even if you did have a very fine gap line, once your bolt is closed in the action some of the gap is back, depending on the thread pitch. Remington runs 13TPI which in a quarter turn equates to .019231, just under twenty thousandths. I believe it's the Alpine that run a fine thread, which would have much less movement in a quarter turn.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Was this part missed?</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear.</span>
Timing a bolt handle is more than just moving it forward, it is also a matter of clocking as well as many other angles to look at. I personally will take function over cosmetics. That said, I do not like to sacrifice cosmetics either.
Likes this?
LR, Inc. method for bolt handles
Here is how and why I do what I do when I am truing/timing an action.
First I insert a toolsteel truing mandrel with pilots into the receiver, then the receiver is placed in a 16C collet chuck which is fastened to a custom SSG back plate which has full angular and rotational adjustment. Next all of the angular ajustment is taken out of the receiver.Then the rotational run out is removed, then they are both double checked again, now the mandrel is removed. There is no stress on the action while machining therefore when the action is removed the machining is still true. Then the face of the receiver is remachined as well as the locking embuttments. The threads are then single cut true with the raceway. Now the receiver is removed, next I remove the bolt handle off the remington bolt.I then chuck the bolt body, get the bolt running true then single point remachine the bolt face and as Chad mentioned the bolts do usually run pretty true, but I feel the surface finish of the bolt face can be greatly improved upon. Therefore while everything is dialed in I re-machine the locking embuttments on the bolt to reduce lapping time.
After this the existing bolt handle or a new threaded bolt handle is attached by tig welding with emphesis on primary extraction.
Experience does not come quick or easy. There are so many angles to a bolt action rifle that many never realize, I am facinated by these things, so I eat and sleep them and hope to keep on aiming for perfection.
All this said, there are many ways to go about truing an action,I have trued actions many different ways over the years. I have come to this place mostly because it makes sense in my mind from a machinist stand point. Not that you are necessarily going to be seeing any more accuracy on the firing line than any other action truing processes, but I need to have confidence in my mind that what I am doing is making a difference.There are hundreds of accuracy minded gunsmiths here that are building awesome accurate rifles and I am not trying to take away from their talents. I do not believe I am beyond improvement and will keep striving to improve. I'm doing what I love and I love what I'm doing. I am all for the hobby guys that want to do their own work and would love to put some videos or books together at some point in the future that shares some of my learnings and why I do things the way I do.
308nate </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308nate</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mmtuning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, truing an action is a little more involved than one thinks if the gunsmith does it correct. True bolt face, recut barrel threads on centerline, and sure up tenon seating area. </div></div>
It's been my experience that the bolt lugs and bolt face are pretty darn square from Remington out the door. This has been a reoccurring topic as of late. When one considers how the bolt is manufactured it's a simple operation that would be difficult to screw up. Near impossible actually.
The handle is almost certainly attached after the body of the bolt has been machined. Just makes sense from a manufacturing perspective to do it this way. That being said all were talking about is a facing operation on two surfaces. If there's going to be an error I'd suspect it's the distance from the back of the lug to the bolt face (or vise versa depending on how the print is calls out the dimensioning)
Fundamentally it's a pair of facing operations. The lug with a turning insert and the bolt face with a boring bar.
Either way the biggest error a machinist has to concern himself with is having a bad tool offset (be it from tool wear or a lazy setup) and goofing the distance between the two.
Where I'm going with this is an often underscored consideration when working on these actions, is the primary extraction (P.E.). <span style="font-style: italic">Any</span> machining on a lug surface, be it receiver or bolt, has a detrimental effect on the P.E. It's cascading as a number of other important design features become negatively altered as well. Fire control timing, striker fall, shroud timing, and P.E.
The only way to get it back is to reposition the bolt handle forward. Do that and now the back of the bolt has to be shortened to catch back up to the bolt handle. This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear. The load bearing surface will also have to be altered to put things back into proper relation.
Very few gunsmiths pay this the attention it deserves. Opening the primary extraction also has a potential for elevated safety issues as now the gaps in the rear bridge are more exposed. In the event of a violent case rupture that gas will have better access to get to your face.
All of this should be considered when blueprinting an action and its often overlooked/ignored.
Now, back to the bolt lugs. When completed, the lapping process is the proof as to whether the puddin is any good. If the lugs are square with one another (in an unloaded state) the four surfaces should respond well to one another during lapping. If they clean up quickly (which in every case that I've done one in, they do) it means the bolt lugs were straight to begin with. The surface finish may have left to be something to be desired (not uncommon with a factory Remmy bolt) but the lugs are parallel and square to the receiver lug abutments.
Bottom line is lapping tells you if the process was done right and you get the benefit of improved lug surface finish just by the shear act of lapping them. (that's what it does)
This is why in my shop we only cut on the bolts as an absolute last resort. If they lap in quickly, we leave them alone.
Receiver threads are another matter. They are quite often out of alignment and machining them over does encourage the barrel tennon to run on the same center axis of the receiver. This is provided the tooling used in the lathe is set up properly and things like tool deflection are managed. One also has to ensure the threading insert is square to the thread being cut. If ignored you end up with a thread form that isn't accurate and this creates headaches when barreling.
Last is the distance from lug abutments to the receiver ring. The factory Rem distance is 1.150". Preserving this so the tennon dimensioning is maintained is something I feel is important. This is why I qualify all my tooling and have all my programing done in such a way to datum off the lug abutments. It's super easy to skim .005" off the lugs and then cut .01" off the receiver ring. You just altered the distance by .005". Not a show stopper, but I feel its better to keep it the same. The advantage I have is I can do both operations with a single tool which greatly reduces the chances of a shift in work offset or an error when switching from a boring bar to a turning tool on the lathe.
It can certainly be done, but it creates more work and the potential for an error is elevated.
Hope this helped explain some things.
C.
</div></div>
All due respect, but I'm gonna disagree on this one.
I believe whatever you do, do not shorten your bolt when moving your handle forward, this would involve needing a longer cocking piece. If you keep the same cocking piece and just machine the catch back you reduce your firing pin throw which in turn reduces momentum to the primer thus has the potential to cause ignition problems. If you shortened the back of your bolt you would need to make a new cocking piece, a new shroud as well as re-machine the cocking ramp. You would have more into it than a custom action.
You can move the handle forward to set up proper primary extraction. This will only increase function, the only ill effect will be a cosmetic one, which is a greater gap from the back of the handle to the front of the shroud. If this bothers you, you can make a shroud that overhangs the bolt body. Even if you did have a very fine gap line, once your bolt is closed in the action some of the gap is back, depending on the thread pitch. Remington runs 13TPI which in a quarter turn equates to .019231, just under twenty thousandths. I believe it's the Alpine that run a fine thread, which would have much less movement in a quarter turn.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Was this part missed?</span>
<span style="color: #3333FF">
This means the cocking cam has to be pushed forward, the cocking piece detent needs machining, and now the shroud has to be remade because it won't time properly. Once that's done the cocking piece is now too far forward in relation to the trigger sear.</span>
Timing a bolt handle is more than just moving it forward, it is also a matter of clocking as well as many other angles to look at. I personally will take function over cosmetics. That said, I do not like to sacrifice cosmetics either.
Likes this?
LR, Inc. method for bolt handles
Here is how and why I do what I do when I am truing/timing an action.
First I insert a toolsteel truing mandrel with pilots into the receiver, then the receiver is placed in a 16C collet chuck which is fastened to a custom SSG back plate which has full angular and rotational adjustment. Next all of the angular ajustment is taken out of the receiver.Then the rotational run out is removed, then they are both double checked again, now the mandrel is removed. There is no stress on the action while machining therefore when the action is removed the machining is still true. Then the face of the receiver is remachined as well as the locking embuttments. The threads are then single cut true with the raceway. Now the receiver is removed, next I remove the bolt handle off the remington bolt.I then chuck the bolt body, get the bolt running true then single point remachine the bolt face and as Chad mentioned the bolts do usually run pretty true, but I feel the surface finish of the bolt face can be greatly improved upon. Therefore while everything is dialed in I re-machine the locking embuttments on the bolt to reduce lapping time.
After this the existing bolt handle or a new threaded bolt handle is attached by tig welding with emphesis on primary extraction.
Experience does not come quick or easy. There are so many angles to a bolt action rifle that many never realize, I am facinated by these things, so I eat and sleep them and hope to keep on aiming for perfection.
All this said, there are many ways to go about truing an action,I have trued actions many different ways over the years. I have come to this place mostly because it makes sense in my mind from a machinist stand point. Not that you are necessarily going to be seeing any more accuracy on the firing line than any other action truing processes, but I need to have confidence in my mind that what I am doing is making a difference.There are hundreds of accuracy minded gunsmiths here that are building awesome accurate rifles and I am not trying to take away from their talents. I do not believe I am beyond improvement and will keep striving to improve. I'm doing what I love and I love what I'm doing. I am all for the hobby guys that want to do their own work and would love to put some videos or books together at some point in the future that shares some of my learnings and why I do things the way I do.
308nate </div></div>
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Chad,
No I didn't miss that part in your earlier post..not sure if this is what you meant.
I guess the part I was disagreeing with was the part about catching the back of the bolt up to the handle that was moved ahead...is this how you actually do them? If so I would think you would have to charge quite a bit...possibly more than the action is worth?
I feel the better route would be to make a new shroud that reaches over the bolt body. Then none of the process above would be necessary, much less expense needed for the action truing process. If you are saying you don't do this process because it would be to labor intensive, therefore you don't move the handle ahead to set up primary extraction which in many Remy's need to be fixed even without any truing (they are just that bad from the factory) then I feel you are saying you would rather have cosmetic than function..which I feel the opposite about.If you are saying you don't true the bolt lugs to keep from bolt body set back, but say they are very true and don't need to be trued then what would be wrong with taking a .002 pass off the back of the lugs for improved surface finish? .002 more set back would be virtually nothing on the primary extraction............just my .02.
maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but just want to clarify for myself and others as I read it you were saying you do not want to move the bolt handle forward for proper primary extraction unless you shortened the bolt body to catch it up with the handle. This would have been the part that I disagreed with.
There is nothing wrong with doing what you suggested it just seemed like it was a lot of extra work for something that wasn't needed and that could be achieved a much easier way with a new custom cocking shroud.
Question: when you modify your cocking piece do you extend the portion of the cocking piece that sits in the detent in the back of the bolt or do you let it sit further forward? If you are letting it sit further forward two things will happen.
1. if you don't modify the cocking piece at all, when closing the bolt you will be hammering the sear on the trigger meaning the sears will be engaging before the cam down process. this can cause chipping on the sears in the trigger or at minimum inconsistent trigger pull from set to set.
2. If you grind back the catch on the cocking piece, you are shortening firing pin throw, Timney and Shillen triggers do this slightly just by the position of the cocking piece catch. The reason they do it, I believe is for liability. Remington's are so sloppy you sometimes get a sear hammer problem with the existing factory triggers with their original set up. This isn't usually a problem if you don't tamper with the trigger as the factory trigger is set with lots of sear engagement, but then if you adjust the trigger down, reducing sear engagement you run into two things.
1. Inconsistent trigger pull.
2. Possible pin drop or sear chip.
That was a little bit of a rabbit trail. Back to the cocking piece. I believe the proper way to modify the cocking piece in the situation you mentioned would be to extend the portion of the cocking piece that sits in the index detent on the back of the bolt.
This is most likely a misunderstanding on my part and if others misunderstood as I did, I just wanted to have it clarified.
chad, I'm sure you know what you are doing.
Keep up the good work...BTW I do love reading your posts and drooling over your shop pix
....wish I had more time to post on line.
308nate
Chad,
No I didn't miss that part in your earlier post..not sure if this is what you meant.
I guess the part I was disagreeing with was the part about catching the back of the bolt up to the handle that was moved ahead...is this how you actually do them? If so I would think you would have to charge quite a bit...possibly more than the action is worth?
I feel the better route would be to make a new shroud that reaches over the bolt body. Then none of the process above would be necessary, much less expense needed for the action truing process. If you are saying you don't do this process because it would be to labor intensive, therefore you don't move the handle ahead to set up primary extraction which in many Remy's need to be fixed even without any truing (they are just that bad from the factory) then I feel you are saying you would rather have cosmetic than function..which I feel the opposite about.If you are saying you don't true the bolt lugs to keep from bolt body set back, but say they are very true and don't need to be trued then what would be wrong with taking a .002 pass off the back of the lugs for improved surface finish? .002 more set back would be virtually nothing on the primary extraction............just my .02.
maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but just want to clarify for myself and others as I read it you were saying you do not want to move the bolt handle forward for proper primary extraction unless you shortened the bolt body to catch it up with the handle. This would have been the part that I disagreed with.
There is nothing wrong with doing what you suggested it just seemed like it was a lot of extra work for something that wasn't needed and that could be achieved a much easier way with a new custom cocking shroud.
Question: when you modify your cocking piece do you extend the portion of the cocking piece that sits in the detent in the back of the bolt or do you let it sit further forward? If you are letting it sit further forward two things will happen.
1. if you don't modify the cocking piece at all, when closing the bolt you will be hammering the sear on the trigger meaning the sears will be engaging before the cam down process. this can cause chipping on the sears in the trigger or at minimum inconsistent trigger pull from set to set.
2. If you grind back the catch on the cocking piece, you are shortening firing pin throw, Timney and Shillen triggers do this slightly just by the position of the cocking piece catch. The reason they do it, I believe is for liability. Remington's are so sloppy you sometimes get a sear hammer problem with the existing factory triggers with their original set up. This isn't usually a problem if you don't tamper with the trigger as the factory trigger is set with lots of sear engagement, but then if you adjust the trigger down, reducing sear engagement you run into two things.
1. Inconsistent trigger pull.
2. Possible pin drop or sear chip.
That was a little bit of a rabbit trail. Back to the cocking piece. I believe the proper way to modify the cocking piece in the situation you mentioned would be to extend the portion of the cocking piece that sits in the index detent on the back of the bolt.
This is most likely a misunderstanding on my part and if others misunderstood as I did, I just wanted to have it clarified.
chad, I'm sure you know what you are doing.
Keep up the good work...BTW I do love reading your posts and drooling over your shop pix
308nate
Re: Where do I find a used Rem700 SA for a good price?
Not stirring the pot betwen 2 of the 'Dakota's' finest but I have a suggestion......you each build a rifle and send to yours truely....
I am about the same distance from each and as I live on the border will make every effort to be impartial and fair in my lifelong testing of each. Upon completion of my testing the results will be included in with my Last Will and Testament. MY twin brother is named as Executor and will gladly upon my statement of last wishes mail each of you a copy of what I found to be superior to the other in each rifle.
To save costs with custom machineing etc you each have the option of building said rifle on a custom action of your choice! Calibers do not have to be the same but would request that they be 260 or smaller just to save me some on reloading costs over my lifetime. If not same caliber and one is a smaller varmint caliber it may due to circumstances be evaluated in a much thorough manner than its counterpart. Should one or the other succumb to excessive barrel erosion because of caliber choice by builder before my death I shall be forced to name the other smith the winner by default.
Further consideration will be given if said rifle is equipped with optics and current manufacturers suggested retail price of optics whether mounted or unmounted will be another consideration involved with the aforementioned extensive testing.
I feel my offer and above statements to be impartial and nonselfserving and more than reasonable and fair. Thank You.
Respectfully,
Dennis
Not stirring the pot betwen 2 of the 'Dakota's' finest but I have a suggestion......you each build a rifle and send to yours truely....
To save costs with custom machineing etc you each have the option of building said rifle on a custom action of your choice! Calibers do not have to be the same but would request that they be 260 or smaller just to save me some on reloading costs over my lifetime. If not same caliber and one is a smaller varmint caliber it may due to circumstances be evaluated in a much thorough manner than its counterpart. Should one or the other succumb to excessive barrel erosion because of caliber choice by builder before my death I shall be forced to name the other smith the winner by default.
Further consideration will be given if said rifle is equipped with optics and current manufacturers suggested retail price of optics whether mounted or unmounted will be another consideration involved with the aforementioned extensive testing.
I feel my offer and above statements to be impartial and nonselfserving and more than reasonable and fair. Thank You.
Respectfully,
Dennis
