Gunsmithing Where is the demand for gunsmithing?

[kyle528]

I am currently attending gunsmith school in PA. I am from southeastern Ohio, but I dream of a life in the northwest (Montana)? I'd like to get an idea of where there is a need for someone who has the skill set to do any type of gunsmith work. A lot of what I see people looking for is one specific type of work i.e. machining. While I enjoy machining, I am in gunsmith school for a reason, and that is to be able to perform quality work across the entire spectrum of firearms. I am sure a lot of people on this forum are from an area that could use someone who knows how to do more than just a regular FFL holder or machinist. I still have a while yet before I'll be starting to look for a job, but in that time I would love to get some input from folks about areas to look at, and to start creating the best plan I can for my career and my future.


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[Petrov]

Well you better learn some MACHINING!
I brought my gunsmith a CZ527 for a rebarrel rechamber etc, it has a tiny thing receiver there is no good way of getting the barrel off that doesnt involve seriously crushing or twisting the receiver.
So my gunsmith had to MACHINE a custom rear action wrench.
If you want to be a gunsmith you better pretty damn good at machining. If you dont like it just go charge people for swapping their pistol sights and call yourself a gunsmith.

 

[bentbolt308]

a good under standing of machining will help when you are making fixtures and jigs. I have heard of smiths twisting a tikka action trying to get the barrel off. are you wanting to work only of precision rifles, shotguns, pistol or ect

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

Coming from someone who employees 2 gunsmiths. If you aren't a capable machinist before a gunsmith, look for work elsewhere. I've never had a decent gunsmith who wasn't a great machinist first.

 

[BurnOut]

Wait... "areas" as in skill sets, or "areas" as in places on a map?

 

[kyle528]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough... I can machine and I don't mind machining, I both enjoy it and I would like to think that I have the skills for a wide range of machine work. What I was trying to get at was the fact that I am training to be a gunsmith, not primarily a machinist. What I'm looking for in my career is to cover the entire spectrum, including machining. However, I do not want to be running a lathe every single day, all day. I would like to seek employment where other important skills that I am learning can be applied. Stockmaking, finishing, checkering, bluing, all kinds of repairs, restoration, etc. I KNOW that I could pick any number of these and specialize in one skill and work for somewhere that does that one thing. But I am the kind of person who wants to see each aspect of the trade to completion through a project. Machine work to chamber, thread and contour the barrel, polish and blue parts, shape, inlet, checker and finish a stock, fit sights and optics, diagnose and repair firearms with all types of problems, and most of all take pride in the work I do. I didn't mean to come across as not WANTING or not ABLE to do machine work, I simply used it as an example where I see many people only want or are only able to run a machine. A very valuable skill, I will agree, but I wish to see myself in a career where I can combine all of my skills to produce work that I am proud of, and that will rival that of the best in the industry. That being said, I was just throwing out the question of geographical areas that maybe don't have someone like that, or maybe are in need of more. Just trying to get a head start on where to look, when the time comes.


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[6AYoteHunter]

Any place west of the Mississippi you need to be able make rifles that shoot under 1/2 moa. Your machining skills have to be spot on.
Any place with good bird hunting will have a greater demand for shotgun work.
Gun friendly states will have more semiautomatic work.
Look at areas with good population growth.

 

[BurnOut]

Honestly, I'd say that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter... if you look at some of the more highly regarded 'smiths on this site, none of them (except TacOps) are in major metropolitan areas, and people send stuff all over the country. What I'd look at would be cost of living, proximity to a support system (family/friends) that can help you get your business running, politics/gun laws, and the competitive shooting scene.

 

[LRI]

There's a reason the trade leans towards new builds and freshen ups. When you do general repair work your going to soon discover its a great diet plan as you'll starve to death.

Example: Customer brings in Marlin retailing for $300.00 and it has a broken extractor or stripped base hole. You charge the industry standard of $75/hr. Parts cost $60.00 to your door with shipping. You mark it up because you have to and devote two hours reverse engineering the mess and installing the new part.

Do the math: $210.00. No tax yet. No markup.

By the time your done guess what? It's 3 bills. Now he says he can buy a new one for that and your expected to work for change.

That is how that side of the trade works. It's how its been and how it'll likely be forever. It's hard enough to make any margin on this side of things.

Keep in mind the following: If I make a widget and sell it to a big company they expect a 40% margin. 40 points. . . That's the nut they gotta have to sustain their company.
You aren't Brownells or Midway. Your buying one/two items so at best your going to see a 12-15 percent break. Sounds like a lot doesn't it? Sure, when you charge $75/hr on top of it.

It's not.


The sooner you understand and appreciate it, the sooner your business can run with brains instead of balls. Grasping that asap might get you past the first 5 years.


Good luck on your venture.

C.


PS: The school your paying for right now, I'll lay a $1000 dollar bet its not enough. 10-15 years ago there might of been 4 guys in the US using a cnc lathe to fit a barrel. I was one of the first. Jim Borden was right there too. Now, guys are working out of two car garages and they have them. Stock work? You better have at least a 3 axis machine if you want to feed a family. I am a silent voice to a very highly vetted instructor at the Trinidad School. We once worked together. He's the first one to tell the executive board that they need to move past 1950's curriculum. That they MUST modernize. They fight him every step of the way and its for two reasons: Experienced instructors and MONEY. Both are very hard to find.

Anyone good at cnc is making a living at it best they can. They aren't likely to leave that job to make $40-50k a year teaching. Especially in Trinidad, CO. (Mars?) Next, the equipment isn't cheap and tooling them up costs almost as much as the machine. The liability is huge. Kill a spindle and the party starts at $10k to fix it. New machines will be well past $20k.

 

[lash]

^^^ And this, folks is the reality of a business. ^^^

You, as a consumer may not like it and may think that your repair should cost $50, but people have to eat. Even gunsmiths...crazy, I know, right?

Maybe you've heard of an old saw that says: "The world is full of starving artists." Well this is true and also applies to any craftsman trade or professional trades person if they think that their desire for attention to detail and ability to do fine work alone will pay all of the bills.

 

[want2learn]

it sure seems San Diego could use more excellent gunsmiths.

 

[Petrov]

From the sound of things it looks like you need to be a good machinist and come up with a line of aftermarket accessory products for the shooting community to support your gunsmithing "job".

 

[Mr.Kirk]

Rich people shoot precision rifles. More importantly, they shoot very expensive shotguns and rifles from Europe and South Africa. Rich people expect to pay more for work on a $100k firearm than their employees would for work on their $3k firearm. I've been pretty surprised to see how much they actually use their guns. They travel to shoot often, so, unfortunately, it makes sense to be set up where they live and work.

 

[majohnson2]

Trinidad, Colorado has turned out some of the best people in the industry. In some cases your location isn't the issue, because shipping is always an option. In most cases your reputation is more important. Math skills are another important issue. Good luck on the journey.

 

[kortik]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough... I can machine and I don't mind machining, I both enjoy it and I would like to think that I have the skills for a wide range of machine work. What I was trying to get at was the fact that I am training to be a gunsmith, not primarily a machinist. What I'm looking for in my career is to cover the entire spectrum, including machining. However, I do not want to be running a lathe every single day, all day. I would like to seek employment where other important skills that I am learning can be applied. Stockmaking, finishing, checkering, bluing, all kinds of repairs, restoration, etc. I KNOW that I could pick any number of these and specialize in one skill and work for somewhere that does that one thing. But I am the kind of person who wants to see each aspect of the trade to completion through a project. Machine work to chamber, thread and contour the barrel, polish and blue parts, shape, inlet, checker and finish a stock, fit sights and optics, diagnose and repair firearms with all types of problems, and most of all take pride in the work I do. I didn't mean to come across as not WANTING or not ABLE to do machine work, I simply used it as an example where I see many people only want or are only able to run a machine. A very valuable skill, I will agree, but I wish to see myself in a career where I can combine all of my skills to produce work that I am proud of, and that will rival that of the best in the industry. That being said, I was just throwing out the question of geographical areas that maybe don't have someone like that, or maybe are in need of more. Just trying to get a head start on where to look, when the time comes.


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At the end of the day, the only gunsmith which can make money for living is the one that can do a high quality machine work, lathe and mill. This is because a lot of people can mount scopes by themselves, do exceptable bluing , etc. and some people are real good at wood work, which includes, say, furniture, and by extension, rifle stocks.

But not a lot of people have metal cutting machines, tooling and/or know how to use them. The ones that can not mount scope, recoil pad or attach a sling are most likely to kill you for a buck above their expected price of practically nothing. If you want to be somebody in gunsmithing business, you have to be able to do what most people can not do.

 

[Iamero]

This is the truth of this industry and why I didn't end up going. My history wasn't in machine, nor did I know the first thing about running CNC or a metal lathe. When I asked about it back in college 5 years ago, people recommend I stay going for business and use that to fund my gunsmithing adventures. A lot of the smiths I have talked to do it on the side for quite a while because it's a lot of work with not much reward when you're just starting off.

Truth is you'll need to charge as much as the top rated smiths to make money, but then why would someone bring their gun to the new guy on the block fresh out of school and not a reputable smith?

As mentioned above, there are a lot of people who can be pretty handy with some basic garage tools and YouTube. I've fixed my ARs, inlet stocks for bottom metal, painted and blued guns, threaded bolt handles, opened screw holes to 8-40, built savages that shoot 1/2 MOA, etc etc. And as I mentioned above, I'm in business and have no experience with metal work or machining. What do I let the smiths do? I let them use their $20,000 machines to do things I can't do on my own and I don't mind paying them for that. The sort of Things that require precision work and no room for error.

I don't have a FFL so I work on my own guns only, and if I got my FFL to take on other people's work it would be to do simple stuff that I got good at or time consuming projects that people don't want to figure out themselves. It would be evenings and weekends when I got time because once again, my business career funds my gun fun.

If you've got the machining experience and you get the gunsmith degree, then work for someone else for a while and learn from them as well. This will help pay off your loans without you paying the business startup costs, plus you'll get invaluable experience. Heck, might even be worth being a machinist for a stock company like Cadex since they build their own rifles too. That isn't in your Montana area, but would be one heck of a company to work for.

 

[LRI]

At the end of the day, the only gunsmith which can make money for living is the one that can do a high quality machine work, lathe and mill. This is because a lot of people can mount scopes by themselves, do exceptable bluing , etc. and some people are real good at wood work, which includes, say, furniture, and by extension, rifle stocks.

But not a lot of people have metal cutting machines, tooling and/or know how to use them. The ones that can not mounts scope, recoil pad or attach a sling are most likely to kill you for a buck above their expected price of practically nothing. If you want to be somebody in gunsmithing business, you have to be able to do what most people can not do.

At the end of the day, the only gunsmith which can make money for living is the one that can do a high quality machine work, lathe and mill.

Well said -

-But, you forgot one thing. One MUST do it profitably. The business side of this cannot be overstated enough. There's many a talented machinist out there. This work (gun work) is not absurdly hard or technical. Compared to aerospace or medical manufacturing, it's playschool. To sustain you must and I mean MUST learn how to rub two nickels together and make a 5 dollar bill from it.

 

[kortik]

At the end of the day, the only gunsmith which can make money for living is the one that can do a high quality machine work, lathe and mill.

Well said -

-But, you forgot one thing. One MUST do it profitably. The business side of this cannot be overstated enough. There's many a talented machinist out there. This work (gun work) is not absurdly hard or technical. Compared to aerospace or medical manufacturing, it's playschool. To sustain you must and I mean MUST learn how to rub two nickels together and make a 5 dollar bill from it.

Chad, I actually consider sufficient profitability a must and a decisive factor, which is the reason I did not specifically mention it.
No sufficient profit, no business, law of nature, and nothing can be done about it. You, obviously, is real good running things , which makes your business a solid venture over a very long term, and that is very beneficial both for your customers and LRI.

I'm doing my best to do the same and use calculator all the time, regardless where my dreams are.
If numbers does not show what they need to show, I will not do business, period.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

I have a solid background in conventional machines, critical welding and an engineering background. I have built 15 or so rifles from the ground up and enjoy it very much. As others have said there is no meat on the bone in being a repair smith and to be competitive as a custom smith the investment in shop equipment is substantial. For these reasons I elected not to go down that path.

Maybe not what you are looking for but my suggestion is apply to work for a manufacturer. Edtablish yourself there and get to a position where you are involved in R&D or prototyping. In MT you have Proof, Nemo and others. You may find it rewarding to work in the industry as an insider bringing new products to market. Either way expect to be machine shop skill centric regardless if you are doing customs or production work.

Good luck in whatever path you follow!

 

[kortik]

I have a solid background in conventional machines, critical welding and an engineering background. I have built 15 or so rifles from the ground up and enjoy it very much. As others have said there is no meat on the bone in being a repair smith and to be competitive as a custom smith the investment in shop equipment is substantial. For these reasons I elected not to go down that path.

Maybe not what you are looking for but my suggestion is apply to work for a manufacturer. Edtablish yourself there and get to a position where you are involved in R&D or prototyping. In MT you have Proof, Nemo and others. You may find it rewarding to work in the industry as an insider bringing new products to market. Either way expect to be machine shop skill centric regardless if you are doing customs or production work.

Good luck in whatever path you follow!

"As others have said there is no meat on the bone in being a repair smith and to be competitive as a custom smith the investment in shop equipment is substantial."

That is exactly what anybody looking to become a gunsmith for living should understand.

 

[lw8]

Someone said, "we live in a Glock world"...guns are cheap, people who buy guns are cheaper...and the shooting world has moved from hunters with blued steel and walnut, to millennials who want an AR that looks cool and costs 5 bucks that they can blast steel cased wolf ammo through at the range once a month while posting pics on instagram. It's a shame, but the demand just isn't there for craftsmanship. The hide taps into a small segment of the shooting world...precision rifle, where quality still matters...but even then...Ceracoat is fast, relatively easy, and hides surface imperfections. Textured stock finish? Same...cuts down on finish time. More and more...plug and play, not hand fit. That's fine and good...but it's a world apart from traditional craftsmanship.