Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
Go with the AR-50. Good trigger and muzzle break, best bang for the buck in the fifty world.
Go with the AR-50. Good trigger and muzzle break, best bang for the buck in the fifty world.
Which 50 BMG to buy?
- Thread starter pgv5705
- Start date
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
This one will have to do for the time being
Courtesy of American Precision Arms, 338 Lapua Magnum.
This one will have to do for the time being
Courtesy of American Precision Arms, 338 Lapua Magnum.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
I totally agree. Love mine.
I still plan to buy a 50 as soon as my bank account recovers from the 338LM. Can't say enough good things about Jered and his team at APA. This is my second stick that they have built.
I totally agree. Love mine.
I still plan to buy a 50 as soon as my bank account recovers from the 338LM. Can't say enough good things about Jered and his team at APA. This is my second stick that they have built.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball and less than half that with handloads.
Speaking of .338 Lapua.....I just sold my Savage 110BA. Loved the rifle, loved the cartridge.....but my principles will not allow me to be ripped off on ammo and component costs just becase the cartridge is popular. The costs of shooting .338 Lapua are 3x the costs of .50 bmg with 3x less "effect" on target.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball and less than half that with handloads.
Speaking of .338 Lapua.....I just sold my Savage 110BA. Loved the rifle, loved the cartridge.....but my principles will not allow me to be ripped off on ammo and component costs just becase the cartridge is popular. The costs of shooting .338 Lapua are 3x the costs of .50 bmg with 3x less "effect" on target.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......<span style="color: #FF0000">rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball</span> and less than half that with handloads.
</div></div>
Uh...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......<span style="color: #FF0000">rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball</span> and less than half that with handloads.
</div></div>
Uh...
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RagnarAW50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am very happy with my AW50 and I am not yet done wringing more accuracy out of it.
FYI: The AX50 is supposed to be significantly cheaper than the AW50...I doubt it will make it anywhere near below the 5K mark.
</div></div>
AX50 starts from GBP7k in the UK = approx US$11k but it rarely translates 1:1 with the US being usually more expensive.
http://www.sportingservices.co.uk/AI%20Rifles%20Retail%20inc%20VAT%20Price%20List%20-%202011.pdf</div></div>
Previous estimates put the AX50 right below $10k USD.
Supposedly the Serbu BFG-50A is now beginning to ship...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RagnarAW50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am very happy with my AW50 and I am not yet done wringing more accuracy out of it.
FYI: The AX50 is supposed to be significantly cheaper than the AW50...I doubt it will make it anywhere near below the 5K mark.
</div></div>
AX50 starts from GBP7k in the UK = approx US$11k but it rarely translates 1:1 with the US being usually more expensive.
http://www.sportingservices.co.uk/AI%20Rifles%20Retail%20inc%20VAT%20Price%20List%20-%202011.pdf</div></div>
Previous estimates put the AX50 right below $10k USD.
Supposedly the Serbu BFG-50A is now beginning to ship...
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bnh5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello, I don't know if you are still looking for a Fifty or if you decided on a AR50, but I have a buddy selling one with only 20 rounds fired through it (safe queen). He is asking $2500.00 for the rifle. Hope this helps! </div></div>
Don't try to skirt the rules.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bnh5</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello, I don't know if you are still looking for a Fifty or if you decided on a AR50, but I have a buddy selling one with only 20 rounds fired through it (safe queen). He is asking $2500.00 for the rifle. Hope this helps! </div></div>
Don't try to skirt the rules.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......<span style="color: #FF0000">rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball</span> and less than half that with handloads.
</div></div>
Uh... </div></div>
Why skeptical?........Bushmaster guarantees the BA-50 to shoot 1 MOA with M33 ball or they will take it back and retune it. Lothar Walther match barrel + 40lb rifle + the best muzzle break I have seen = .243 Winchester recoil = accurate rifle. Bushmaster took the original Cobb design and improved it.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_military_BCW3M_30-50BMGLW.asp
I find it interesting how products tend to be dominated by one or two (usually overhyped) brands. The more popular/hype, the more $$$ it costs to buy, the more $$$ the manufacturer makes. Apple is a great example of this. .338 Lapua ammo is another good example. Barrett and Armalite in .50bmg rifles....same story. When I bought the BA50 back in January, I already had the M82A1 and AR50. I shot all three in multiple range outings after which I sold the 82A1 and AR50. Every time I take it to the range no one knows what is is.....I like that.
The good thing about hype is that I didn't lose a single dollar on either of the other rifles when I sold them!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Bushmaster BA-50.....hands down the best .50bmg rifle I have owned.
Compared to my previous rifles (AR50, M82A1, 99, Serbu BFG50(a disaster), Zastava M93) the BA50 is the best overall weapon. Lothar Walther barrel, 3 roller bearings on the left-side bolt, mag fed, 10 round magazines, and comes with a custom Pelican case.......I got mine for $3900.00......<span style="color: #FF0000">rifle shoots .8 MOA with surplus M33 Ball</span> and less than half that with handloads.
</div></div>
Uh... </div></div>
Why skeptical?........Bushmaster guarantees the BA-50 to shoot 1 MOA with M33 ball or they will take it back and retune it. Lothar Walther match barrel + 40lb rifle + the best muzzle break I have seen = .243 Winchester recoil = accurate rifle. Bushmaster took the original Cobb design and improved it.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_military_BCW3M_30-50BMGLW.asp
I find it interesting how products tend to be dominated by one or two (usually overhyped) brands. The more popular/hype, the more $$$ it costs to buy, the more $$$ the manufacturer makes. Apple is a great example of this. .338 Lapua ammo is another good example. Barrett and Armalite in .50bmg rifles....same story. When I bought the BA50 back in January, I already had the M82A1 and AR50. I shot all three in multiple range outings after which I sold the 82A1 and AR50. Every time I take it to the range no one knows what is is.....I like that.
The good thing about hype is that I didn't lose a single dollar on either of the other rifles when I sold them!!
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
I should mention that the factory trigger is awful. Heavy and creepy. It could probably be worked by a gunsmith though.
The cool thing about the BA50 is it uses AR type lower components, so any drop in aftermarket AR style trigger group should work. I had a Wilson TTU fitted with excellent results.
I should mention that the factory trigger is awful. Heavy and creepy. It could probably be worked by a gunsmith though.
The cool thing about the BA50 is it uses AR type lower components, so any drop in aftermarket AR style trigger group should work. I had a Wilson TTU fitted with excellent results.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo.
Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
there is an edm windrunner on gunbroker now with a nightforce F1 scope on it at $6000 with noone bidding on it as of yet and no reserve. No it is not mine, I have one, but I am not selling it. You could get $1800 out of the scope if you don't want to spend that much.
there is an edm windrunner on gunbroker now with a nightforce F1 scope on it at $6000 with noone bidding on it as of yet and no reserve. No it is not mine, I have one, but I am not selling it. You could get $1800 out of the scope if you don't want to spend that much.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
"had a Wilson TTU fitted" ..... forgive my questioning, but why would you need a drop in trigger fitted? You push out the trigger and hammer pins, and "drop" the wilson in, and squish the pins back in. Something doesn't look right to me.
"had a Wilson TTU fitted" ..... forgive my questioning, but why would you need a drop in trigger fitted? You push out the trigger and hammer pins, and "drop" the wilson in, and squish the pins back in. Something doesn't look right to me.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: squeek-k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"had a Wilson TTU fitted" ..... forgive my questioning, but why would you need a drop in trigger fitted? You push out the trigger and hammer pins, and "drop" the wilson in, and squish the pins back in. Something doesn't look right to me. </div></div>
You must not work on many things mechanical.
Between my firearms, two muscle cars, a Big Dog chopper, and a 32" Hallett 335 with dual 502 big blocks.....I bought a Grizzly 3-axis mill specifically for fitting "bolt on" and "drop in" parts.
If I had a nickel for every "bolt on" or "drop in" part that did not fit, I could maybe afford gas for the boat. Quality control is not what it used to be.
The TTU was a bit tight in my BA50 lower, so some slight milling was required.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: squeek-k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"had a Wilson TTU fitted" ..... forgive my questioning, but why would you need a drop in trigger fitted? You push out the trigger and hammer pins, and "drop" the wilson in, and squish the pins back in. Something doesn't look right to me. </div></div>
You must not work on many things mechanical.
Between my firearms, two muscle cars, a Big Dog chopper, and a 32" Hallett 335 with dual 502 big blocks.....I bought a Grizzly 3-axis mill specifically for fitting "bolt on" and "drop in" parts.
If I had a nickel for every "bolt on" or "drop in" part that did not fit, I could maybe afford gas for the boat. Quality control is not what it used to be.
The TTU was a bit tight in my BA50 lower, so some slight milling was required.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo. </div></div>
Do you have a chronograph or are you just repeating what you read on the internet? I have shot both surplus M33 and currently re-manufactured M33 from surplus components to what is likely better tolerances than Lake City produced....I pay $1.85 a round for this ammo. The re-mans are slightly more accurate, but surplus M33 still shoots MOA in my BA50.
After 300+ rounds I regularly shoot smaller than hand sized groups at 600 yards.....even on windy days. Chronograph velocity at 50 feet from the muzzle is 2980 FPS +/- 50fps.
I was in 1'st Marines in the Gulf in 1991 and 4'th Marines in Iraq in 2003. I have spent significant "quality" time behind various Special Application Rifles at 1000+ yards. Thank you for the expert explanation of MOA.
Relax guys, I don't work for Bushmaster. It is a good rifle at a good price.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo. </div></div>
Do you have a chronograph or are you just repeating what you read on the internet? I have shot both surplus M33 and currently re-manufactured M33 from surplus components to what is likely better tolerances than Lake City produced....I pay $1.85 a round for this ammo. The re-mans are slightly more accurate, but surplus M33 still shoots MOA in my BA50.
After 300+ rounds I regularly shoot smaller than hand sized groups at 600 yards.....even on windy days. Chronograph velocity at 50 feet from the muzzle is 2980 FPS +/- 50fps.
I was in 1'st Marines in the Gulf in 1991 and 4'th Marines in Iraq in 2003. I have spent significant "quality" time behind various Special Application Rifles at 1000+ yards. Thank you for the expert explanation of MOA.
Relax guys, I don't work for Bushmaster. It is a good rifle at a good price.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
I happen to own a Apple and I can guarantee you I will never, ever go back to a PC. I am tired of being a part time IT guy to own and operate a PC. Same goes for Barrett and Armalite. There is hype cause they are quality. How about Schmidt & Bender, there is a shit load of hype on them. Probably just hype though right, lol.
I happen to own a Apple and I can guarantee you I will never, ever go back to a PC. I am tired of being a part time IT guy to own and operate a PC. Same goes for Barrett and Armalite. There is hype cause they are quality. How about Schmidt & Bender, there is a shit load of hype on them. Probably just hype though right, lol.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
Id hate to watch this thread go on without atleast a mention of the ALS50. This is an upper conversion, but is damn accurate with most everything I've fired from it. I fire lot of American Eagle ammo because its the cheapest. This rifle will group sub moa with the cheap ammo. It is extremely heavy, so I used a billet lower from SMOS and a bohica stock with steel buffer tube. The Bushnell Elite also works well and returns to zero every time. Complete package was well under 5 grand and Ill put it against the Armalites anyday.
Id hate to watch this thread go on without atleast a mention of the ALS50. This is an upper conversion, but is damn accurate with most everything I've fired from it. I fire lot of American Eagle ammo because its the cheapest. This rifle will group sub moa with the cheap ammo. It is extremely heavy, so I used a billet lower from SMOS and a bohica stock with steel buffer tube. The Bushnell Elite also works well and returns to zero every time. Complete package was well under 5 grand and Ill put it against the Armalites anyday.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2brothers641</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I happen to own a Apple and I can guarantee you I will never, ever go back to a PC. I am tired of being a part time IT guy to own and operate a PC. Same goes for Barrett and Armalite. There is hype cause they are quality. How about Schmidt & Bender, there is a shit load of hype on them. Probably just hype though right, lol. </div></div>
I completely agree, OSX Snow Leopard is awesome. Except I purchased the install DVD from Fry's for $29.00 and had my son install it on a $499.00 HP dual core "PC" that has the same Intel CPU, ram, HD, and graphics that Apple sells for $1500. As far as I can tell the only difference with Apple "PC" hardware is the aluminum case. My $550.00 HP/Mac tower doesn't look as cool as Mac hardware, but, I don't buy a computer to stare at cool hardware.....I'll keep the $1000 difference.
BTW....HP is an American company and my computer was manufactured in Houston Texas. Apple is made in China....hmmmm....$1000.00 more for the same hardware made using child labor. $1300 of profit margin on a $1500 computer that other "non-cool" companies sell for $499 = hype last time I checked....
I have personally owned several Barrett and Armalite rifles....fine weapons. Have used both in combat because that's what Uncle Sam provided. For my personal use I like the cost and accuracy of the BA50.
I only posted because I never read anything about them on this forum.
Do you own a .50bmg rifle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2brothers641</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I happen to own a Apple and I can guarantee you I will never, ever go back to a PC. I am tired of being a part time IT guy to own and operate a PC. Same goes for Barrett and Armalite. There is hype cause they are quality. How about Schmidt & Bender, there is a shit load of hype on them. Probably just hype though right, lol. </div></div>
I completely agree, OSX Snow Leopard is awesome. Except I purchased the install DVD from Fry's for $29.00 and had my son install it on a $499.00 HP dual core "PC" that has the same Intel CPU, ram, HD, and graphics that Apple sells for $1500. As far as I can tell the only difference with Apple "PC" hardware is the aluminum case. My $550.00 HP/Mac tower doesn't look as cool as Mac hardware, but, I don't buy a computer to stare at cool hardware.....I'll keep the $1000 difference.
BTW....HP is an American company and my computer was manufactured in Houston Texas. Apple is made in China....hmmmm....$1000.00 more for the same hardware made using child labor. $1300 of profit margin on a $1500 computer that other "non-cool" companies sell for $499 = hype last time I checked....
I have personally owned several Barrett and Armalite rifles....fine weapons. Have used both in combat because that's what Uncle Sam provided. For my personal use I like the cost and accuracy of the BA50.
I only posted because I never read anything about them on this forum.
Do you own a .50bmg rifle?
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
No response.....typical.
Please indulge my brief rant......
Most would agree that in the past 10 years, people with high level skills resulting from practice, dedication, sacrifice, and precision are in short supply. The world has become saturated with internet "experts" spewing superficial "knowledge", advertising hype, or repeating something they read in a forum post as fact.
The USA has become an instant gratification society afflicted with ADHD and 5 minute attention spans. Any real skill set involving difficulty and dedication to master is eschewed for quicker and easier pursuits involving the appearance of skills and intelligence vs actual depth of true knowledge.
This had worked out well for me financially because my business involves weeding these people out of the hiring process for some REALLY serious jobs using a number of techniques refined over years of experience. My company is staffed with some really smart guys.....and it never ceases to amaze me when an internet "expert" fails to bamboozle his way in to a position. The look of surprise on his face, the fact that he was actually surprised.....amazing how often it happens.
I have lurked on this board for a few years. There are some really smart guys on here as well.....players I can tell have walked the walk. Lots of finger "snipers" on here as well, typing furiously about things they have no idea.
Peace.
No response.....typical.
Please indulge my brief rant......
Most would agree that in the past 10 years, people with high level skills resulting from practice, dedication, sacrifice, and precision are in short supply. The world has become saturated with internet "experts" spewing superficial "knowledge", advertising hype, or repeating something they read in a forum post as fact.
The USA has become an instant gratification society afflicted with ADHD and 5 minute attention spans. Any real skill set involving difficulty and dedication to master is eschewed for quicker and easier pursuits involving the appearance of skills and intelligence vs actual depth of true knowledge.
This had worked out well for me financially because my business involves weeding these people out of the hiring process for some REALLY serious jobs using a number of techniques refined over years of experience. My company is staffed with some really smart guys.....and it never ceases to amaze me when an internet "expert" fails to bamboozle his way in to a position. The look of surprise on his face, the fact that he was actually surprised.....amazing how often it happens.
I have lurked on this board for a few years. There are some really smart guys on here as well.....players I can tell have walked the walk. Lots of finger "snipers" on here as well, typing furiously about things they have no idea.
Peace.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo. </div></div>
Do you have a chronograph or are you just repeating what you read on the internet? I have shot both surplus M33 and currently re-manufactured M33 from surplus components to what is likely better tolerances than Lake City produced....I pay $1.85 a round for this ammo. The re-mans are slightly more accurate, but surplus M33 still shoots MOA in my BA50.
After 300+ rounds I regularly shoot smaller than hand sized groups at 600 yards.....even on windy days. Chronograph velocity at 50 feet from the muzzle is 2980 FPS +/- 50fps.
I was in 1'st Marines in the Gulf in 1991 and 4'th Marines in Iraq in 2003. I have spent significant "quality" time behind various Special Application Rifles at 1000+ yards. Thank you for the expert explanation of MOA.
Relax guys, I don't work for Bushmaster. It is a good rifle at a good price. </div></div>
M33 Ball surplus ammo is in and of itself, not MOA capable regardless of the rifle used to shoot it. You've already claimed sub-MOA (.8 MOA) groups with M33 Ball surplus. I'm no expert shooter like you, and I've only had two .50BMG rifles, but I'm still calling BS on your claim of sub-MOA accuracy with M33 Ball. I'm not knocking the Cobb/BM50 - the surp ammo won't shoot that well regardless of the rifle you use.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jtb33</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Milsurp M33 Ball ammo in and of itself isn't capable of more than ~2MOA. If the Cobb 50's - err, I mean Bushmaster BA50's were really capable of 1MOA with M33 Ball, they'd be the rifle that FCSA shooters would be using. I think it's a marketing gimmick that Bushmaster uses and I think a lot of people who "confirm" that their BA50 shoots 1MOA with M33 Ball discount "fliers" in a group as their fault, or are talking about one group that they shot once or twice. MOA groups occurring once or twice with a rifle and ammo does not mean that it's accurate to label the combo as such. It needs to be consistently capable of doing so at any range; 1"@100Y, 2"@200Y, 9"@900Y...
Also, I think you will find that Bushmaster does NOT "guarantee" that accuracy - they just have it listed in the description. Again, it's marketing fluff as far as I am concerned. The rifle *may* be capable of 1MOA, but certainly not with milsurp M33 Ball ammo. </div></div>
Do you have a chronograph or are you just repeating what you read on the internet? I have shot both surplus M33 and currently re-manufactured M33 from surplus components to what is likely better tolerances than Lake City produced....I pay $1.85 a round for this ammo. The re-mans are slightly more accurate, but surplus M33 still shoots MOA in my BA50.
After 300+ rounds I regularly shoot smaller than hand sized groups at 600 yards.....even on windy days. Chronograph velocity at 50 feet from the muzzle is 2980 FPS +/- 50fps.
I was in 1'st Marines in the Gulf in 1991 and 4'th Marines in Iraq in 2003. I have spent significant "quality" time behind various Special Application Rifles at 1000+ yards. Thank you for the expert explanation of MOA.
Relax guys, I don't work for Bushmaster. It is a good rifle at a good price. </div></div>
M33 Ball surplus ammo is in and of itself, not MOA capable regardless of the rifle used to shoot it. You've already claimed sub-MOA (.8 MOA) groups with M33 Ball surplus. I'm no expert shooter like you, and I've only had two .50BMG rifles, but I'm still calling BS on your claim of sub-MOA accuracy with M33 Ball. I'm not knocking the Cobb/BM50 - the surp ammo won't shoot that well regardless of the rifle you use.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
M33 ball is most certainly capably of MOA accuracy.
Your statement that it is not is based on what......something you read, something someone told you, or your own first hand experience?
If your statement is based on your own first hand experience, fine, but if your answer is "because it shot like crap in my rifles" that is not a valid metric with which to weigh accuracy potential of ammunition. Chamber size, headspace, action design, barrel design, barrel size, brake design, etc.... all have a large effect on accuracy.
Most of the .50bmg M33 available on the market is surplus where the bullets were pulled and then reloaded (according to federal law). How the reloading was done and the equipment used has a HUGE effect on accuracy potential....specifically that the bullets themselves were properly die re-sized.
I have 4 different lots of surplus M33 ball on hand. 3 are Lake City and 1 is Israeli. I ordered small samples of each lot (40 rounds each) prior to purchasing a large quantity. I pulled bullets on 80 rounds of this ammo and shot the other 80 rounds. The Lake City ammo (not broken down and reassembled) was very consistent in terms of powder charge and bullet concentricity across the 60 rounds/3 lots I pulled. The Israeli lot was loaded hot and seemed a bit sensitive to temperature fluctuations. Accuracy of the BA50 out of the box was 3 MOA with this ammo.
Based on observation of fired brass, I sent it back to Bushmaster along with some sample ammo and they re-adjusted the headspace and muzzle break. When I got it back, it shot 1 MOA with the LC M33 consistently out to 600+ yards. I got a good deal on some reman M33 and some M8 API and this shot .7/.8 MOA...this is really good ammo, especially the M8 API. I bought 1000 rounds of each.
Something to note is that the chamber on the BA50 is a slightly oversize match chamber and NOT based on machine gun chamber dimensions.
Based on 300+ rounds of M33 surplus fired thus far, my BA50 is averaging 1.035 MOA at 500 yards.....I shoot over a chronograph 90% of the time and I have logged every .50 BMG shot I have fired since 1991......statistics do not lie.
M33 ball is most certainly capably of MOA accuracy.
Your statement that it is not is based on what......something you read, something someone told you, or your own first hand experience?
If your statement is based on your own first hand experience, fine, but if your answer is "because it shot like crap in my rifles" that is not a valid metric with which to weigh accuracy potential of ammunition. Chamber size, headspace, action design, barrel design, barrel size, brake design, etc.... all have a large effect on accuracy.
Most of the .50bmg M33 available on the market is surplus where the bullets were pulled and then reloaded (according to federal law). How the reloading was done and the equipment used has a HUGE effect on accuracy potential....specifically that the bullets themselves were properly die re-sized.
I have 4 different lots of surplus M33 ball on hand. 3 are Lake City and 1 is Israeli. I ordered small samples of each lot (40 rounds each) prior to purchasing a large quantity. I pulled bullets on 80 rounds of this ammo and shot the other 80 rounds. The Lake City ammo (not broken down and reassembled) was very consistent in terms of powder charge and bullet concentricity across the 60 rounds/3 lots I pulled. The Israeli lot was loaded hot and seemed a bit sensitive to temperature fluctuations. Accuracy of the BA50 out of the box was 3 MOA with this ammo.
Based on observation of fired brass, I sent it back to Bushmaster along with some sample ammo and they re-adjusted the headspace and muzzle break. When I got it back, it shot 1 MOA with the LC M33 consistently out to 600+ yards. I got a good deal on some reman M33 and some M8 API and this shot .7/.8 MOA...this is really good ammo, especially the M8 API. I bought 1000 rounds of each.
Something to note is that the chamber on the BA50 is a slightly oversize match chamber and NOT based on machine gun chamber dimensions.
Based on 300+ rounds of M33 surplus fired thus far, my BA50 is averaging 1.035 MOA at 500 yards.....I shoot over a chronograph 90% of the time and I have logged every .50 BMG shot I have fired since 1991......statistics do not lie.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M33 ball is most certainly capably of MOA accuracy.
Your statement that it is not is based on what......something you read, something someone told you, or your own first hand experience?
If your statement is based on your own first hand experience, fine, but if your answer is "because it shot like crap in my rifles" that is not a valid metric with which to weigh accuracy potential of ammunition. Chamber size, headspace, action design, barrel design, barrel size, brake design, etc.... all have a large effect on accuracy.
Most of the .50bmg M33 available on the market is surplus where the bullets were pulled and then reloaded (according to federal law). How the reloading was done and the equipment used has a HUGE effect on accuracy potential....specifically that the bullets themselves were properly die re-sized.
I have 4 different lots of surplus M33 ball on hand. 3 are Lake City and 1 is Israeli. I ordered small samples of each lot (40 rounds each) prior to purchasing a large quantity. I pulled bullets on 80 rounds of this ammo and shot the other 80 rounds. The Lake City ammo (not broken down and reassembled) was very consistent in terms of powder charge and bullet concentricity across the 60 rounds/3 lots I pulled. The Israeli lot was loaded hot and seemed a bit sensitive to temperature fluctuations. Accuracy of the BA50 out of the box was 3 MOA with this ammo.
Based on observation of fired brass, I sent it back to Bushmaster along with some sample ammo and they re-adjusted the headspace and muzzle break. When I got it back, it shot 1 MOA with the LC M33 consistently out to 600+ yards. I got a good deal on some reman M33 and some M8 API and this shot .7/.8 MOA...this is really good ammo, especially the M8 API. I bought 1000 rounds of each.
Something to note is that the chamber on the BA50 is a slightly oversize match chamber and NOT based on machine gun chamber dimensions.
Based on 300+ rounds of M33 surplus fired thus far, my BA50 is averaging 1.035 MOA at 500 yards.....I shoot over a chronograph 90% of the time and I have logged every .50 BMG shot I have fired since 1991......statistics do not lie. </div></div>
First off, it appears that now you're trying to change the definition of "Surplus M33 Ball". Surplus is surplus - not pulled bullets and reloaded by Summitt or someone else. If the latter is what you're talking about, that's not surplus ammo. You claimed 0.8 MOA with surplus M33 ball and "less than half of that" (eg, <0.4 MOA) with hand-loads.
In your above post, you just changed your claim that your BA50 is a .8 MOA rifle with M33, to it being a 1.035 MOA rifle with M33. I don't follow.
Anyway, I don't shoot mil-surp M33 for groups - it's a plinking round. Mostly because it's 2-3 MOA accuracy. Since you're so sure that mil-surp M33 Ball ammo can be sub-MOA, it sounds like ATK (yeah, the multi-billion dollar defense contractor) could use your mystical ability to transform M33 Ball to a sub-MOA round.
http://www.atk.com/capabilities_defense/cs_as_ma_sc_.50-caliber.asp
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.50 Caliber M33 Ball
PHYSICAL DATA
Height (max) 5.45 in
Weight 1762.5-76.5 grains
PERFORMANCE DATA
Muzzle Velocity 2910 ± 30 f/s
Chamber Pressure (typical) 55,000 psi
<span style="color: #FF0000">Accuracy Mean radius = 12 in at 600 yd</span>
The .50 cal M33 Ball has a plain bullet tip. The cartridge has been adopted and made by at least 30 countries, including the U.S., Britain, Canada, France, Belgium, Israel, Netherlands, Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan. The cartridge has a soft steel core bullet and is mainly used for practice. It is used in machine guns M2, M3, and M85.
Synonyms:
.50 Caliber Ball, 12.7 x 99mm
NSN:
1305000286574 (with M9 Link)
1305013702594 (4 Ball M33, 1 Tracer M17 with M9 Link)</div></div>
Of course, ATK (and bear in mind that ATK is the largest ammunition manufacturing entity <span style="font-style: italic">in the world</span>) is probably just spouting something they read somewhere, right? I'm sure you have more experience with M33 Ball ammo than ATK does.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M33 ball is most certainly capably of MOA accuracy.
Your statement that it is not is based on what......something you read, something someone told you, or your own first hand experience?
If your statement is based on your own first hand experience, fine, but if your answer is "because it shot like crap in my rifles" that is not a valid metric with which to weigh accuracy potential of ammunition. Chamber size, headspace, action design, barrel design, barrel size, brake design, etc.... all have a large effect on accuracy.
Most of the .50bmg M33 available on the market is surplus where the bullets were pulled and then reloaded (according to federal law). How the reloading was done and the equipment used has a HUGE effect on accuracy potential....specifically that the bullets themselves were properly die re-sized.
I have 4 different lots of surplus M33 ball on hand. 3 are Lake City and 1 is Israeli. I ordered small samples of each lot (40 rounds each) prior to purchasing a large quantity. I pulled bullets on 80 rounds of this ammo and shot the other 80 rounds. The Lake City ammo (not broken down and reassembled) was very consistent in terms of powder charge and bullet concentricity across the 60 rounds/3 lots I pulled. The Israeli lot was loaded hot and seemed a bit sensitive to temperature fluctuations. Accuracy of the BA50 out of the box was 3 MOA with this ammo.
Based on observation of fired brass, I sent it back to Bushmaster along with some sample ammo and they re-adjusted the headspace and muzzle break. When I got it back, it shot 1 MOA with the LC M33 consistently out to 600+ yards. I got a good deal on some reman M33 and some M8 API and this shot .7/.8 MOA...this is really good ammo, especially the M8 API. I bought 1000 rounds of each.
Something to note is that the chamber on the BA50 is a slightly oversize match chamber and NOT based on machine gun chamber dimensions.
Based on 300+ rounds of M33 surplus fired thus far, my BA50 is averaging 1.035 MOA at 500 yards.....I shoot over a chronograph 90% of the time and I have logged every .50 BMG shot I have fired since 1991......statistics do not lie. </div></div>
First off, it appears that now you're trying to change the definition of "Surplus M33 Ball". Surplus is surplus - not pulled bullets and reloaded by Summitt or someone else. If the latter is what you're talking about, that's not surplus ammo. You claimed 0.8 MOA with surplus M33 ball and "less than half of that" (eg, <0.4 MOA) with hand-loads.
In your above post, you just changed your claim that your BA50 is a .8 MOA rifle with M33, to it being a 1.035 MOA rifle with M33. I don't follow.
Anyway, I don't shoot mil-surp M33 for groups - it's a plinking round. Mostly because it's 2-3 MOA accuracy. Since you're so sure that mil-surp M33 Ball ammo can be sub-MOA, it sounds like ATK (yeah, the multi-billion dollar defense contractor) could use your mystical ability to transform M33 Ball to a sub-MOA round.
http://www.atk.com/capabilities_defense/cs_as_ma_sc_.50-caliber.asp
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.50 Caliber M33 Ball
PHYSICAL DATA
Height (max) 5.45 in
Weight 1762.5-76.5 grains
PERFORMANCE DATA
Muzzle Velocity 2910 ± 30 f/s
Chamber Pressure (typical) 55,000 psi
<span style="color: #FF0000">Accuracy Mean radius = 12 in at 600 yd</span>
The .50 cal M33 Ball has a plain bullet tip. The cartridge has been adopted and made by at least 30 countries, including the U.S., Britain, Canada, France, Belgium, Israel, Netherlands, Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan. The cartridge has a soft steel core bullet and is mainly used for practice. It is used in machine guns M2, M3, and M85.
Synonyms:
.50 Caliber Ball, 12.7 x 99mm
NSN:
1305000286574 (with M9 Link)
1305013702594 (4 Ball M33, 1 Tracer M17 with M9 Link)</div></div>
Of course, ATK (and bear in mind that ATK is the largest ammunition manufacturing entity <span style="font-style: italic">in the world</span>) is probably just spouting something they read somewhere, right? I'm sure you have more experience with M33 Ball ammo than ATK does.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
C'mon man, no circular reasoning here....your quotes in red are listed for the M2, M3, and M85 machine guns, not bolt guns.
In any case, M85's were mounted to the AAV's we came ashore in during Desert Storm. Those things are like laser beams firing 1000+ rounds/min of .50bmg. Hot brass flying everywhere. Probably the most accurate machine gun I have ever seen fired......a complicated weapon but accurate as hell.
Its all surplus ammo.....whether original LC or Winchester, or, pulled and reman'd....only difference is reman is significantly cheaper and tends to be a bit more accurate as I stated earlier.
I said the AVERAGE of 300+ rounds was 1.035...there were some groups in that batch that were .5 MOA and some were 4 MOA with a flier usually caused by me and usually late in a range session after muzzle blast fatigue sets in. Yes I do count fliers as per your earlier comments.
Bushmaster is a small company like ATK. I'm sure they are just kidding around by advertising 1MOA with M33 for the BA50 (which Cobb also advertised). Bushmaster probably bought Cobb Mfg because of their cool name.
C'mon man, no circular reasoning here....your quotes in red are listed for the M2, M3, and M85 machine guns, not bolt guns.
In any case, M85's were mounted to the AAV's we came ashore in during Desert Storm. Those things are like laser beams firing 1000+ rounds/min of .50bmg. Hot brass flying everywhere. Probably the most accurate machine gun I have ever seen fired......a complicated weapon but accurate as hell.
Its all surplus ammo.....whether original LC or Winchester, or, pulled and reman'd....only difference is reman is significantly cheaper and tends to be a bit more accurate as I stated earlier.
I said the AVERAGE of 300+ rounds was 1.035...there were some groups in that batch that were .5 MOA and some were 4 MOA with a flier usually caused by me and usually late in a range session after muzzle blast fatigue sets in. Yes I do count fliers as per your earlier comments.
Bushmaster is a small company like ATK. I'm sure they are just kidding around by advertising 1MOA with M33 for the BA50 (which Cobb also advertised). Bushmaster probably bought Cobb Mfg because of their cool name.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">C'mon man, no circular reasoning here....your quotes in red are listed for the M2, M3, and M85 machine guns, not bolt guns.
In any case, M85's were mounted to the AAV's we came ashore in during Desert Storm. Those things are like laser beams firing 1000+ rounds/min of .50bmg. Hot brass flying everywhere. Probably the most accurate machine gun I have ever seen fired......a complicated weapon but accurate as hell.
Its all surplus ammo.....whether original LC or Winchester, or, pulled and reman'd....only difference is reman is significantly cheaper and tends to be a bit more accurate as I stated earlier.
I said the AVERAGE of 300+ rounds was 1.035...there were some groups in that batch that were .5 MOA and some were 4 MOA with a flier usually caused by me and usually late in a range session after muzzle blast fatigue sets in. Yes I do count fliers as per your earlier comments.
Bushmaster is a small company like ATK. I'm sure they are just kidding around by advertising 1MOA with M33 for the BA50 (which Cobb also advertised). Bushmaster probably bought Cobb Mfg because of their cool name.
</div></div>
I think at the end of the day, though, we can safely state that most users who pick up a BA-50 and a box of "M33 Ball" from the gunshow aren't going to be printing MOA regardless of how well they shoot. Pulling apart the components, tailoring the load to your weapon, and reloading them personally, is a significant step away from "1 MOA rifle/ammo combination".
If someone says "A GAP with FGMM is a sub-MOA combination", I've got no doubts that almost anyone can pick up said rifle and ammo and shoot extremely well with it (from the bench), given basic instruction. The rifle and the ammunition are almost certainly going to be capable of the stated performance, based on the fact that both of them by themselves are known quantities with a proven track record of performing extremely well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RifleWizard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">C'mon man, no circular reasoning here....your quotes in red are listed for the M2, M3, and M85 machine guns, not bolt guns.
In any case, M85's were mounted to the AAV's we came ashore in during Desert Storm. Those things are like laser beams firing 1000+ rounds/min of .50bmg. Hot brass flying everywhere. Probably the most accurate machine gun I have ever seen fired......a complicated weapon but accurate as hell.
Its all surplus ammo.....whether original LC or Winchester, or, pulled and reman'd....only difference is reman is significantly cheaper and tends to be a bit more accurate as I stated earlier.
I said the AVERAGE of 300+ rounds was 1.035...there were some groups in that batch that were .5 MOA and some were 4 MOA with a flier usually caused by me and usually late in a range session after muzzle blast fatigue sets in. Yes I do count fliers as per your earlier comments.
Bushmaster is a small company like ATK. I'm sure they are just kidding around by advertising 1MOA with M33 for the BA50 (which Cobb also advertised). Bushmaster probably bought Cobb Mfg because of their cool name.
</div></div>
I think at the end of the day, though, we can safely state that most users who pick up a BA-50 and a box of "M33 Ball" from the gunshow aren't going to be printing MOA regardless of how well they shoot. Pulling apart the components, tailoring the load to your weapon, and reloading them personally, is a significant step away from "1 MOA rifle/ammo combination".
If someone says "A GAP with FGMM is a sub-MOA combination", I've got no doubts that almost anyone can pick up said rifle and ammo and shoot extremely well with it (from the bench), given basic instruction. The rifle and the ammunition are almost certainly going to be capable of the stated performance, based on the fact that both of them by themselves are known quantities with a proven track record of performing extremely well.
Re: Which 50 BMG to buy?
"Pulling apart the components, tailoring the load to your weapon, and reloading them personally, is a significant step away from "1 MOA rifle/ammo combination"."
Who said that? Nowhere above did I state I pulled apart M33 rounds and reloaded them back. I pulled some initial M33 rounds apart to measure powder charge consistency and bullet concentricity before purchasing $4k worth of that ammunition.
I did handload a batch of 200 "special purpose" rounds. After some trial and error with bullet crimp and overall length (the 10 round Bushmaster mags do not leave a lot of room)......These averaged .492 MOA
I logged the dope on this load into my laptop and uploaded to BORS. I painted the tips on these rounds purple, so for a long range shot beyond 1000 yards, the purple tips are used. Below 1000 yards, out of the box M33 or M8 API is perfectly fine.
LCC brass, sized using custom Redding dies
750gr Hornady AMax bullet
238gr H50 powder
CCI primers
The equation is simple: BA50 + out of the box M33 = 1MOA (as advertised). The rifle might have to make a trip back to Bushmaster for adjustment, but, that is a small price to pay for the power and range of .50bmg at less than $2/round.
With appropriate skill and firing discipline I think anyone could get similar results. I have seen many "internet finger snipers" at the range with more money than brains. I watch them flinch every time they fire a .50bmg round and then say "M33 ball doesn't shoot for shit".....ya that must be it.
"Pulling apart the components, tailoring the load to your weapon, and reloading them personally, is a significant step away from "1 MOA rifle/ammo combination"."
Who said that? Nowhere above did I state I pulled apart M33 rounds and reloaded them back. I pulled some initial M33 rounds apart to measure powder charge consistency and bullet concentricity before purchasing $4k worth of that ammunition.
I did handload a batch of 200 "special purpose" rounds. After some trial and error with bullet crimp and overall length (the 10 round Bushmaster mags do not leave a lot of room)......These averaged .492 MOA
I logged the dope on this load into my laptop and uploaded to BORS. I painted the tips on these rounds purple, so for a long range shot beyond 1000 yards, the purple tips are used. Below 1000 yards, out of the box M33 or M8 API is perfectly fine.
LCC brass, sized using custom Redding dies
750gr Hornady AMax bullet
238gr H50 powder
CCI primers
The equation is simple: BA50 + out of the box M33 = 1MOA (as advertised). The rifle might have to make a trip back to Bushmaster for adjustment, but, that is a small price to pay for the power and range of .50bmg at less than $2/round.
With appropriate skill and firing discipline I think anyone could get similar results. I have seen many "internet finger snipers" at the range with more money than brains. I watch them flinch every time they fire a .50bmg round and then say "M33 ball doesn't shoot for shit".....ya that must be it.
Similar threads
