Which annealing machine

F

fish30114

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 14, 2010
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0
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Canton Georgia
#1
I am trying to decide between 3 annealing machines, the ones that I have currently narrowed down to are:

1. Bench Source

2. Ballistic Edge

3. Ken Light 100 ( at bottom of page)

I am looking for feedback and info, especially from owners of these machines. I am interested in how easy/difficult it is to adjust the torches for different height cases, what results are like of course, and overall quality/reliability/durability of them.

Thanks for any feedback.
 
#2
Re: Which annealing machine

I have owned the ken light and now i own the Bench Source. I like the Bench Source the best because of it's ease of use. I think that the Ken light is a little faster because it uses a continuous motion. The Bench Source really allows you to have a consistent setup from time to time.
 
#3
Re: Which annealing machine

I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
 
#6
Re: Which annealing machine

I bought the bench source. It costs a little more than the others, but it turns each round during the annealing process, and you can control flame distance as well as timing. The adjustability is pretty critical. I reload in the garage, so my temps vary quite a bit. I need to be able to tweak a few parameters going from winter to summer. It is a great little unit. I wouldn't anneal if I didn't have it.
 
#7
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
</div></div>

EWP, what are you using to run your proapne into those hoses? Got a splitter on a big tank?

Also, how do the cases center themselves in those big holes?? gotta wonder if your heat them hot enough in the 10 second max time the Bench Source gives you, will the body of the case get hot before the case gets to the 'exit hole' and you could quench it somehow?? I do like the way the case stays in one position while it is annealed....

Looks like good thinking on that, the bottles might get in the way a bit....
 
#8
Re: Which annealing machine

Have the Ken Light and happy with it. Just hate having to pay $60
for wheels. Visually I think it is the nicest looking by far.
 
#9
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
</div></div>

That is how I roll....
 
#11
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johndoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have the Ken Light and happy with it. Just hate having to pay $60
for wheels. Visually I think it is the nicest looking by far. </div></div>

The Ken Light website states that the base wheel is used to pre-heat the case, how does that work? It says that it is important to do that, and it gets the case to 200ish degrees?? That is plenty hot to burn you, I still wonder exactly how it functions--their website is pretty poor actually.....
 
#12
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
</div></div>

That is how I roll.... </div></div>

Yup, exact same setup I run. The hoses are split off a 20lb BBQ tank.
 
#16
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Penguin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
</div></div>

That is how I roll.... </div></div>

Yup, exact same setup I run. The hoses are split off a 20lb BBQ tank. </div></div>

Yep that's how it's setup.

SAM_0045.jpg
 
#17
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also have the Bench Source Vertex and love it, it gives very consistent results and is very easy to adjust the torches and temp using Tempilaq indicator paint for any size brass with no need for extra wheels and very little adjustment unlike some machines.

ETA: Photo
SAM_0235.jpg
</div></div>

EWP, what are you using to run your proapne into those hoses? Got a splitter on a big tank?

Also, how do the cases center themselves in those big holes?? gotta wonder if your heat them hot enough in the 10 second max time the Bench Source gives you, will the body of the case get hot before the case gets to the 'exit hole' and you could quench it somehow?? I do like the way the case stays in one position while it is annealed....

Looks like good thinking on that, the bottles might get in the way a bit.... </div></div>

Tank is in post above.

The plate has room to adjust it to where it pushes the case to the center of the rotating spindle and then the plate backs up just a hair so the case isn't touching the plate when the case is rotating in the flame.

With both torches running it takes less than 3 seconds(2.6 IIRC) to heat a .223 or 6.8SPC case to 650*+ with the torches barley on(1" blue flame), and since it heats the case so fast and moves it out of the flame the heat doesn't have time to transfer down very far at all, the 450* Tempilaq only melts about 1/3 way down the case so the lower 2/3 never gets over the 450* mark. I can pick the case up by the case head just after it exits the flame(after picking it up by the neck from the plate with pliers), sure it's hot but not burn your hand hot at the head so nothing to worry about but I still use a pan of water under the drop hole to let the cases drop in just to keep hot brass from piling up on the bench.

 
#18
Re: Which annealing machine

EWP, thanks a lot. That looks like a good setup. Interesting on the function of the 'wheel backing up' some.... I had to hold my cases in 270 and 270 WSM in a single flame for about 8-10 seconds to get them annealed (starting into the annealing venture with the Hornady kit)....that's why I wondered about the timing, maybe the dual torches makes the difference--twice the heat I suppose, so should be at least twice as fast??

where did you get the splitter for the 20lb tank?
 
#19
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EWP, thanks a lot. That looks like a good setup. Interesting on the function of the 'wheel backing up' some.... I had to hold my cases in 270 and 270 WSM in a single flame for about 8-10 seconds to get them annealed (starting into the annealing venture with the Hornady kit)....that's why I wondered about the timing, maybe the dual torches makes the difference--twice the heat I suppose, so should be at least twice as fast??

where did you get the splitter for the 20lb tank?

</div></div>

I got the splitter and two hoses from the camping section at Walmart, the hoses are kinda high(~$20 ea.) but are much better than having a bottle hanging off the torch, it makes adjusting the torches much easier and just looks cleaner as well.

I didn't want to worry about changing the little 1# bottles so I went with the 20#,the 20# bottle will last forever running the two little torches.

A .270 case might take up to 4 seconds but that would probably be max and 3.5 seconds would be closer to the actual time.
 
#20
Re: Which annealing machine

Im not too sure what the gas bottles are like in the US compared to gas bottles we have over here... but our BBQ's run on LPG gas which can be either propane, butane or a mix of both depending on climate.

Now I know my Propane torch uses just that, propane, but what Im wondering is can standard LPG in whatever form of the 3, be used to anneal brass?

I think that dual gas splitter setup is ace.
 
#21
Re: Which annealing machine

I use the Ken Leight gizmo.

+1 on wanting to go with the splitter. I've been using and twin tanks and twin burners for nearly 3 years now.

I must admit I never wandered into the camping section to look for one, but it seems pretty common sense in hind sight.

JeffVN
 
#22
Re: Which annealing machine

EWP, good intel. Thanks.

Jeffvn, can you tell me about the pre-heating of the cases with the Ken Light machine....I still can't get that concept functionality in my head??

Close to pulling the trigger on the Vertex....
 
#23
Re: Which annealing machine

I am not completely positive of the functionality, but the hollowed out center of the wheel acts as a heat sink and heat source when you put boiling water in the middle, that heats the wheel and ultimately the brass to roughly 200 deg F in the time it takes the brass to make its way to the burners. I could pull Kens materials and give it to you straight from the horse's mouth, but I think that is the gist. Not sure if its even necessary, but I do it and have not had any problems as a result.

Jeffvn
 
#25
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WTW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am also thinking about picking up one of these machines. How many cases can you anneal with one 20lb tank? </div></div>

ever case you own and then some.

If I had to guess I would say 20K+, I weighed my bottle and after running 1K cases through the machine it didn't weigh any less.
 
#27
Re: Which annealing machine

Bench Source easy to run and setup.


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#28
Re: Which annealing machine

The brass in that video is getting WAY to hot, you need to get some 650* Tempilaq and set your torches to where it just melts to about 3/8" below the shoulder, you do not want to see the brass glow red like in the video, not even a dark shade of red with the lights off.

Bench Source has a good write up in their directions(can be downloaded) that is easy to understand.
 
#29
Re: Which annealing machine

Not worth the time to say. But the brass was not to hot. I do know everyone has opinions. Thanks for yours.
This is showing how the machine operates.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The brass in that video is getting WAY to hot, you need to get some 650* Tempilaq and set your torches to where it just melts to about 3/8" below the shoulder, you do not want to see the brass glow red like in the video, not even a dark shade of red with the lights off.

Bench Source has a good write up in their directions(can be downloaded) that is easy to understand. </div></div>
 
#30
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not worth the time to say. But the brass was not to hot. I do know everyone has opinions. Thanks for yours.
This is showing how the machine operates.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The brass in that video is getting WAY to hot, you need to get some 650* Tempilaq and set your torches to where it just melts to about 3/8" below the shoulder, you do not want to see the brass glow red like in the video, not even a dark shade of red with the lights off.

Bench Source has a good write up in their directions(can be downloaded) that is easy to understand. </div></div> </div></div>

True everyone has their own opinion and I was just giving mine and nothing else, after all it's your brass not mine.

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.

Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch or any process where the neck glows orange. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.
 
#32
Re: Which annealing machine

It appears there are some +s and -'s to each machine. I like the aesthetics, apparent solidity of the Ken Light and Ballistic Edge machines, but prefer the 'stationary' rotating during heating of the case better on the Vertex Bench Source machine....I can't seem to discern why there is a need for the preheating of the case as suggested in the Ken Light data, and fooling around with filling the center of the wheel with boiling water sounds like a PITA, and a good chance to burn yourself.....I suppose you could just run it without water in there, like other units such as the Ballistic Edge machine.

I don't like that the fit of the case into the plate is so sloppy on the Vertex machine, and a few video's I found on YouTube show the case spinning obtusely around against the edge of the plate...I guess since it is running two torches you will get even enough results, just don't like the fit...

Still noodling!
 
#33
Re: Which annealing machine

I have always just put my brass in a stock metal baking pan with about 1" of water, and used a torch. I put the pan on a lazy Susan, works great. I have a hard time spending $400 on a machine like that. What is the advantage over what I do? More consistent?
 
#34
Re: Which annealing machine

Consistency is the name of the game, if you get acceptable results though, who's to say you aren't doing it well enough?
I can say that using the Hornady system with the Templaq, you can get a pretty wide variance in results, BUT, perhaps if you get the cases into a 'sweet spot' with whatever method, it doens't matter--that would be the goal IMO, but certainly the serious guys in annealing came up with and use these machines to maximize consitency.
 
#35
Re: Which annealing machine

Gas annealing is an old method of annealing brass cartridges. It is inefficient. Annealing beass cartridges should be done the way modern and updated ammunition manufacturing does. This is accomplished through induction annealing for case and neck.

The old method of gas annealing is inaccurate, wastes most of the energy and is difficult to control.

An idea is that you might want to speak with Bob Drake of Drake Associates if you need more information on induction annealing. Bob can be reached at (631)749-1100 or [email protected]
 
#36
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT1112</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gas annealing is an old method of annealing brass cartridges. It is inefficient. Annealing beass cartridges should be done the way modern and updated ammunition manufacturing does. This is accomplished through induction annealing for case and neck.

The old method of gas annealing is inaccurate, wastes most of the energy and is difficult to control.

An idea is that you might want to speak with Bob Drake of Drake Associates if you need more information on induction annealing. Bob can be reached at (631)749-1100 or [email protected] </div></div>


SRT 1112, I like the idea of induction annealing, but I simply can't find a system that utilizes induction heating. I have seen a few folks doing it on YouTube or whatever, but it's still a 'hand' process with the folks I have seen, lot's of individual case handling, and not automated at all.

I would be very interested to learn of a system that utilizes induction annealing in an automated system that produces consitent results. This is an interesting topic, I look forward to learning more about it......
 
#37
Re: Which annealing machine

Its doable to have an automated induction system but it would be way more expensive than any gas annealer.

You would need to have a system that moves the induction heater up and down over cases, whilst also having similar rotating capacity like the vertex.

Imo that would cost well over $1,000... I doubt most people would be likely to spend that sort of money, especially when gas annealing techniques have given people world record results (literally).
 
#38
Re: Which annealing machine

Please excuse me <span style="font-weight: bold">EWP</span> if you are Ken Light or Jim Harris on that keyboard,
<span style="font-style: italic">if NOT</span>, you should really give them the credit for what you typed. I recognized it immediately from the 6mmbr.com web article they wrote. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
I'm really not trying to stir the pot and get off topic, it's is just kind of an <span style="font-style: italic">etiquette</span> thing.
wink.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EWP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.
Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch or any process where the neck glows orange. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft.
Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.
</div></div>
 
#40
Re: Which annealing machine

Theres a couple of people on here that have made them most involving a CNC machine or something similar.

There are also much simpler systems out there that dont involve automation, but add a degree of consistency compared to using a Hornady kit.
 
#41
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WARDOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody have plans for a home built annealing machine?
I wouldn't mind trying to make one for myself if someone else had already worked out the kinks. </div></div>

In a month or two I may be able to sell some disassembled setups for a few hundred less than most machines out there. You would just have to put it together yourself, but everything would be premade. Cant guarantee anything, as its still in design phase. Trying to make a constant motion setup (like the Light, and ballistic edge 400) but with one common top plate for anything from 223 to 50.

Ill keep the forum updated once I get a proto built.
 
#44
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody know how much the Bench Source machine is? </div></div>

$519.45 shipped($499.95 + $19.50 S&H)
 
#46
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't like that the fit of the case into the plate is so sloppy on the Vertex machine, and a few video's I found on YouTube show the case spinning obtusely around against the edge of the plate...I guess since it is running two torches you will get even enough results, just don't like the fit...

Still noodling! </div></div>

I just got a Bench Source Vertex machine and after setting it up ran 50 cases through it. Setting up and timing the plate is necessary with this machine. If there are youtube videos showing the case spinning around wildly against the edge of the plate, then these videos were posted by fools who did not read the manual and set up the machine properly. When done correctly (and it takes like 2 minutes, max), the case will spin without wobble or runout in the center of the flames as you would expect.
 
#47
Re: Which annealing machine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KIMO</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't like that the fit of the case into the plate is so sloppy on the Vertex machine, and a few video's I found on YouTube show the case spinning obtusely around against the edge of the plate...I guess since it is running two torches you will get even enough results, just don't like the fit...

Still noodling! </div></div>

I just got a Bench Source Vertex machine and after setting it up ran 50 cases through it. Setting up and timing the plate is necessary with this machine. If there are youtube videos showing the case spinning around wildly against the edge of the plate, then these videos were posted by fools who did not read the manual and set up the machine properly. When done correctly (and it takes like 2 minutes, max), the case will spin without wobble or runout in the center of the flames as you would expect. </div></div>

Yes, please don't go by those morons with a video camera on youtube. I've ran a few thousand through mine with outstanding results. Also the owner of the company has been more than helpful via telephone and email in setting up the machine for the .223 Rem.
 
#48
Re: Which annealing machine

I use the bench source machine. You can almost eliminate runout/wobble of the cases if you set up the plate properly, which is very easy to do. It is a very good piece of kit.
 
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