Which do you prefer and how come? I have always FL sized my stuff, but now I am looking at a neck sizer for a couple guns.
-Matt
-Matt
Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
- Thread starter 105amatt
- Start date
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
My experience is that neck sizing is a PITA!!! Depending on how hot you load, you'll get 3-4 firings on the case before the bolt won't fully open without some coaxing. When that happens, you need to FL size. So, I just FL size EVERYTHING. Get some dies with a neck bushing and properly set the dies up for your chamber and rock on. You won't overwork your brass unless your chamber is out of spec.
I prefer Forster dies over Redding as well.
My experience is that neck sizing is a PITA!!! Depending on how hot you load, you'll get 3-4 firings on the case before the bolt won't fully open without some coaxing. When that happens, you need to FL size. So, I just FL size EVERYTHING. Get some dies with a neck bushing and properly set the dies up for your chamber and rock on. You won't overwork your brass unless your chamber is out of spec.
I prefer Forster dies over Redding as well.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
FL sizing ensures that rounds chamber everytime, it also unforms the brass, FL sizing MIGHT shorten brass life, but if done correctly with a .001 bump the primer pockets will wear out first before the necks split.
FL sizing ensures that rounds chamber everytime, it also unforms the brass, FL sizing MIGHT shorten brass life, but if done correctly with a .001 bump the primer pockets will wear out first before the necks split.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I started out neck sizing but soon found full length sizing easier and more consistent for my shooting needs (hunting and LR steel).
I started out neck sizing but soon found full length sizing easier and more consistent for my shooting needs (hunting and LR steel).
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
He is right when he says use Forster dies. If you send them three fired cases and $10, you get back a FL die that is neck honed to your chambers neck size. If you neck turn you can even do the math and find the correct case neck thickness that will allow you to take our the resizing ball from the decapping pin. This gives you a full length neck sizer without having the donuts effect from the bushings that come with high end neck sizer. Or just keep the decapping rod floating and it will center each time you pull the sizing ball back through the case neck. You can get near perfect each time once you get the feel for this. This allows you to reset your brass back to concentric dimensions without overworking the Brass. Keep in mind your pre-fired brass only fits your chamber if you were to place it back in with the orientation being just as it was the last time you fired it. When you neck size only and chamber the round, you are likely placing brass in a different orientation than when it was shot before. Every time you shoot far too many changes happen to the brass to think it will return to a reverse mirror image of your chamber. So you may as well establish a size and shape for your brass that is the same each time you chamber the cartridge. Most Three Gun contest shooters FL size and get their best groups. Your gun will tell you what it prefers. Do not be confused by BR shooters and their methods. They do not even neck size. Their brass is a near perfect fit in the chamber and all they do is hand seat the bullet after priming and charging.. This works for great for them but not for anybody else. Just don't think that Neck sizing has created a reverse mirror of your chamber.The brass shrinks after firing and you rotate it after loading i again.
Get Forster FL Benchrest dies, order direct from them. Sends them your brass,(fired from your subject rifle) $10 and I promise you wont be sorry.
He is right when he says use Forster dies. If you send them three fired cases and $10, you get back a FL die that is neck honed to your chambers neck size. If you neck turn you can even do the math and find the correct case neck thickness that will allow you to take our the resizing ball from the decapping pin. This gives you a full length neck sizer without having the donuts effect from the bushings that come with high end neck sizer. Or just keep the decapping rod floating and it will center each time you pull the sizing ball back through the case neck. You can get near perfect each time once you get the feel for this. This allows you to reset your brass back to concentric dimensions without overworking the Brass. Keep in mind your pre-fired brass only fits your chamber if you were to place it back in with the orientation being just as it was the last time you fired it. When you neck size only and chamber the round, you are likely placing brass in a different orientation than when it was shot before. Every time you shoot far too many changes happen to the brass to think it will return to a reverse mirror image of your chamber. So you may as well establish a size and shape for your brass that is the same each time you chamber the cartridge. Most Three Gun contest shooters FL size and get their best groups. Your gun will tell you what it prefers. Do not be confused by BR shooters and their methods. They do not even neck size. Their brass is a near perfect fit in the chamber and all they do is hand seat the bullet after priming and charging.. This works for great for them but not for anybody else. Just don't think that Neck sizing has created a reverse mirror of your chamber.The brass shrinks after firing and you rotate it after loading i again.
Get Forster FL Benchrest dies, order direct from them. Sends them your brass,(fired from your subject rifle) $10 and I promise you wont be sorry.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I was about to order a neck sizer die but I will now be doing the foster deal. thanks guys! Great info here
I was about to order a neck sizer die but I will now be doing the foster deal. thanks guys! Great info here
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
gmich thanks for the info on Forster. I had no idea they offered that service.
gmich thanks for the info on Forster. I had no idea they offered that service.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
IMO Redding dies are far superior. there is alot more info needed to determine whether or not FL vs Neck sizing woud work for you.IE type of shooting?
You running a belted mag or not, how hot of a load are you running,if belted mag, have you measured buldge above belt, have you measure what your neck tension is with your current dies? If your going to FL size, bushing dies are far superior. Leave the Forester on the shelf.
IMO Redding dies are far superior. there is alot more info needed to determine whether or not FL vs Neck sizing woud work for you.IE type of shooting?
You running a belted mag or not, how hot of a load are you running,if belted mag, have you measured buldge above belt, have you measure what your neck tension is with your current dies? If your going to FL size, bushing dies are far superior. Leave the Forester on the shelf.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Non bushing dies with the necks reamed to .002-.003 neck tension produce far superior concentric rounds versus bushing dies, once the neck is set to your desired neck tension the expander can be removed.
Non bushing dies with the necks reamed to .002-.003 neck tension produce far superior concentric rounds versus bushing dies, once the neck is set to your desired neck tension the expander can be removed.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
You can do both with the same F/L die. You simply back the die off a turn or so, and the shoulder no longer gets touched.
When the case generates excessive bolt closing drag, start bringing it down in small increments until the case closure drag is at the preferred level.
Lock down the die; your cases and dies are now at their optimal resizing length for your chamber.
There is no either/or for neck vs F/L resizing. It is a choice, and it ls up to you to make it. FWIW, I ask folks who win things and they give me conflicting answers.
My personal choice is actually neither.
I employ a F/L die, backed off several turns so only a minimal portion of the neck length actually gets resized. This corresponds with my own testing and the conclusion that less neck tension is better than more. If I can turn a seated bullet in the neck with one finger and thumb, the tension is too small, and I need to adjust the die downward so it resizes a bit more of the neck length and the bullet no longer turns
A) This resizes less neck length, so there's less of the neck getting work hardened. B) The unsized portion of the neck is closer to the chamber neck's true diameter, and helps to center the case neck better when it is chambered. C) By doing the twist test for each reloading cycle (it's actually fairly quick) we can achieve a degree of neck tension management that has an actual basis in true neck tension.
Obviously, bolt drag will eventually emerge; and when it does, the die is repositioned to bump the shoulder. Then this process starts over again with the next reloading cycle.
Lest anyone get to thinking this is just another one of Greg's Hokey Brainstorms, this was not my invention. It was taught me by my Elder Brother as an older BR techneique from back when most shooters only had F/L dies.
Greg
You can do both with the same F/L die. You simply back the die off a turn or so, and the shoulder no longer gets touched.
When the case generates excessive bolt closing drag, start bringing it down in small increments until the case closure drag is at the preferred level.
Lock down the die; your cases and dies are now at their optimal resizing length for your chamber.
There is no either/or for neck vs F/L resizing. It is a choice, and it ls up to you to make it. FWIW, I ask folks who win things and they give me conflicting answers.
My personal choice is actually neither.
I employ a F/L die, backed off several turns so only a minimal portion of the neck length actually gets resized. This corresponds with my own testing and the conclusion that less neck tension is better than more. If I can turn a seated bullet in the neck with one finger and thumb, the tension is too small, and I need to adjust the die downward so it resizes a bit more of the neck length and the bullet no longer turns
A) This resizes less neck length, so there's less of the neck getting work hardened. B) The unsized portion of the neck is closer to the chamber neck's true diameter, and helps to center the case neck better when it is chambered. C) By doing the twist test for each reloading cycle (it's actually fairly quick) we can achieve a degree of neck tension management that has an actual basis in true neck tension.
Obviously, bolt drag will eventually emerge; and when it does, the die is repositioned to bump the shoulder. Then this process starts over again with the next reloading cycle.
Lest anyone get to thinking this is just another one of Greg's Hokey Brainstorms, this was not my invention. It was taught me by my Elder Brother as an older BR techneique from back when most shooters only had F/L dies.
Greg
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Greg is correct with the choice being yours..
This would all be negated if cartridge used is a belted mag and you are running hot loads and the bulge above belt keeps swelling and then shoulder needs to be bumped. End result is the bolt won't close because of those 2 things.
Comp .001" shell holder would bump shoulder back .001" and then over cam press and FL down to the belt would bring case back into specs and ease of loading into chamber.
Pressure is your enemy, thats why FL is done on most belted mags. FYI 200fps is not worth the ass ache of replacing worn out brass and all the cost associated with replacing brass, etc.
It all depends on what he expects in results and what caliber he's loading for, because each would most likely be different.
Greg is correct with the choice being yours..
This would all be negated if cartridge used is a belted mag and you are running hot loads and the bulge above belt keeps swelling and then shoulder needs to be bumped. End result is the bolt won't close because of those 2 things.
Comp .001" shell holder would bump shoulder back .001" and then over cam press and FL down to the belt would bring case back into specs and ease of loading into chamber.
Pressure is your enemy, thats why FL is done on most belted mags. FYI 200fps is not worth the ass ache of replacing worn out brass and all the cost associated with replacing brass, etc.
It all depends on what he expects in results and what caliber he's loading for, because each would most likely be different.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I like to do both with the Redding Type S Full length bushing die. I can get my desired neck tension and bump the shoulder back at the same time. It produces very concentric ammo that has never failed to chamber for me.
I like to do both with the Redding Type S Full length bushing die. I can get my desired neck tension and bump the shoulder back at the same time. It produces very concentric ammo that has never failed to chamber for me.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
"..now I am looking at a neck sizer for a couple guns."
Why, what do you think neck sizing will do for your "couple guns"? Most of what we read about the value of NS is web/magazine BS. When it's done with conventional neck dies the brass is worked just as much as with FL sizing and most bottle neck cases fail from split necks anyway. Any accuracy differences are typically small or non-existant.
Different people love bushing and specially honed conventional dies but it seems most of us prefer Lee's very inexpensive Collet Neck dies. The collets work necks the absolute minimum so we do get slightly longer life from our carefully selected and prepped cases, they leave the proper bullet 'tension' for straight seating without fiddling with bushings or concerns about neck thickness and they also leave straight necks straight; what's not to love about Lee's collet dies IF you really want to neck size?
Get a good BR/Comp seater from Forster or Redding, add a body die and a collet neck sizer, then you can do anything you may want your dies to do.
So called 'competition' shell holders are thicker than normal, meaning they can only reduce the amount of shoulder set back during sizing, they cannot possibly increase shoulder set back.
Reloaders should size to set the shoulders of all bottle neck cases to fit their chamber no matter any rims or belts the cases may have. Anyone who has one of the several available case 'headspace' gages - and knows what he's doing - can set his shoulders where he wants/needs them to be.
"..now I am looking at a neck sizer for a couple guns."
Why, what do you think neck sizing will do for your "couple guns"? Most of what we read about the value of NS is web/magazine BS. When it's done with conventional neck dies the brass is worked just as much as with FL sizing and most bottle neck cases fail from split necks anyway. Any accuracy differences are typically small or non-existant.
Different people love bushing and specially honed conventional dies but it seems most of us prefer Lee's very inexpensive Collet Neck dies. The collets work necks the absolute minimum so we do get slightly longer life from our carefully selected and prepped cases, they leave the proper bullet 'tension' for straight seating without fiddling with bushings or concerns about neck thickness and they also leave straight necks straight; what's not to love about Lee's collet dies IF you really want to neck size?
Get a good BR/Comp seater from Forster or Redding, add a body die and a collet neck sizer, then you can do anything you may want your dies to do.
So called 'competition' shell holders are thicker than normal, meaning they can only reduce the amount of shoulder set back during sizing, they cannot possibly increase shoulder set back.
Reloaders should size to set the shoulders of all bottle neck cases to fit their chamber no matter any rims or belts the cases may have. Anyone who has one of the several available case 'headspace' gages - and knows what he's doing - can set his shoulders where he wants/needs them to be.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
"you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."
Let me get this straight; you consistantly get 1/4 moa from your .308, .30-06 and .260 and you attribute it to neck sizing? That's some great shooting but I think it may have more to do with your spectactular shooting skills, some expertly selected and prepped cases, a fantastic shooting bench and rest, plus the rifle and bullets much more than the caliber or simple neck sizing!
Please at least tell us what rifles and bullets are you doing that with?
"you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."
Let me get this straight; you consistantly get 1/4 moa from your .308, .30-06 and .260 and you attribute it to neck sizing? That's some great shooting but I think it may have more to do with your spectactular shooting skills, some expertly selected and prepped cases, a fantastic shooting bench and rest, plus the rifle and bullets much more than the caliber or simple neck sizing!
Please at least tell us what rifles and bullets are you doing that with?
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
My $0.02
I neck size,
I run a stiff load,
I get 30+ reload cycles on 308 brass without annealing
My load shoots down near 0.4 MoA in my M40 VNC
I understnad that NO sizing might not be as accurate as FL sizing, but I don't see many around her getting 30+ reload cycles on 47.8 gr Varget pushing 155 Scenars in Win brass, either; even when using better brass (Lapua) and annealing.
In my opinion NO sizing is for brass life and not for ultimate accuracy, but that the loss in accuracy is hardly measurable (0.05 MoA, maybe).
My $0.02
I neck size,
I run a stiff load,
I get 30+ reload cycles on 308 brass without annealing
My load shoots down near 0.4 MoA in my M40 VNC
I understnad that NO sizing might not be as accurate as FL sizing, but I don't see many around her getting 30+ reload cycles on 47.8 gr Varget pushing 155 Scenars in Win brass, either; even when using better brass (Lapua) and annealing.
In my opinion NO sizing is for brass life and not for ultimate accuracy, but that the loss in accuracy is hardly measurable (0.05 MoA, maybe).
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Redding dies are not good. They certainly are and I really didn't want to start a Ford vs. Chevy match. Holster your guns big fella. I was giving a tip and not endorsing any company. You will find many professionals who use Redding dies, as you will find those that use Forster.
Truly and honestly, neither die from a quality standpoint is better than each other. They are both top notch. I was referring to a feature that Forster offers that as far as I know Redding does not. I also really like the fact the Forster expansion ball rides right up to the top of the case neck and is oblong. So the instant you start to retrack the case the expansion ball is aligning to the case neck while the case neck and base are still fully supported. Many dies have the expansion ball in the middle so the top of the case is completely free of the alignment that the die offers. Forster and Pacific are the only two I know of that offers this. So if the quality of both dies is equal or at least too good to quibble over, and the Forster has the better neck expansion option and offers the customer die honing for $10 (Add the $10 to the die cost and your still cheaper than a Redding die)then that tips the scales for me and many competition shooters. Now they do not and neither do I support the idea that if you buy any other die you are making a mistake. So please either use the info to your advantage or not. But lets not pick on two perfectly good reloading manufacturers. Keep in mind, the more narrow your point of view, the less you see.
To the FL guy, I can promise two things. if you follow what I have finally settled on, you will like it. If you however go with Redding dies, you will like it. Too bad for you, there are many good options. Unless of course you listen to some people who think there is only one way or the highway.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Redding dies are not good. They certainly are and I really didn't want to start a Ford vs. Chevy match. Holster your guns big fella. I was giving a tip and not endorsing any company. You will find many professionals who use Redding dies, as you will find those that use Forster.
Truly and honestly, neither die from a quality standpoint is better than each other. They are both top notch. I was referring to a feature that Forster offers that as far as I know Redding does not. I also really like the fact the Forster expansion ball rides right up to the top of the case neck and is oblong. So the instant you start to retrack the case the expansion ball is aligning to the case neck while the case neck and base are still fully supported. Many dies have the expansion ball in the middle so the top of the case is completely free of the alignment that the die offers. Forster and Pacific are the only two I know of that offers this. So if the quality of both dies is equal or at least too good to quibble over, and the Forster has the better neck expansion option and offers the customer die honing for $10 (Add the $10 to the die cost and your still cheaper than a Redding die)then that tips the scales for me and many competition shooters. Now they do not and neither do I support the idea that if you buy any other die you are making a mistake. So please either use the info to your advantage or not. But lets not pick on two perfectly good reloading manufacturers. Keep in mind, the more narrow your point of view, the less you see.
To the FL guy, I can promise two things. if you follow what I have finally settled on, you will like it. If you however go with Redding dies, you will like it. Too bad for you, there are many good options. Unless of course you listen to some people who think there is only one way or the highway.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Neck sizing means no lube and for me, fine accuracy.
Try it both ways and see what works best for you.
Neck sizing means no lube and for me, fine accuracy.
Try it both ways and see what works best for you.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
There are far more places of concern if you want sub 1/4" groups than whether or not you FL or NS. I FL as mentioned above and honesty feel i am having a bad day if I get a 1/4" However I place my concern on the overall quality. If I get a concentric case, from my methods then I will also get a bullet with little to know runout run-out. I have off the shelf Savage 12 and as stated it gets much better groups than 1/4" , unless of course we are shooting at 200 yards. Then that is about right.
So, do what you want but keep in mind the old phrase. "Don't take advice from someone who inst were you want to be"
Better yet, quit asking unknown people for advice. Pick up some books from people who have won awards. Glenn Newick makes a good book, he is a Benchrester Hal of Fame member. He is also making a new book. A chapter or two of I have had the honor of proof reading for him. or get the book by Glen Zedicker. he has shot with David Tubbs and together they with many awards. You will learn more about how to get a great handload than just neck sizing.
Their advice may not be free, but you get what you pay for. Based on someone the advice I have seen posted I would say that still holds true.
BTW if you have Forster hone your dies, you wont over work the brass. That is the hole point of having them hone the dies. So the dies match as close as is reasonable to your chamber. I sure as heck wouldn't take advice from someone who doesn't know how to anneal his brass to keep them useful.
Come on people, if you don't really know or have not really done it all, if you have not publish or went to school for it.. then be careful about spreading free advice that could possibly be dangerous.
Do your homework, because some of what i have read sounds cliche and would draw chuckles from the real Pros in the business.
There are far more places of concern if you want sub 1/4" groups than whether or not you FL or NS. I FL as mentioned above and honesty feel i am having a bad day if I get a 1/4" However I place my concern on the overall quality. If I get a concentric case, from my methods then I will also get a bullet with little to know runout run-out. I have off the shelf Savage 12 and as stated it gets much better groups than 1/4" , unless of course we are shooting at 200 yards. Then that is about right.
So, do what you want but keep in mind the old phrase. "Don't take advice from someone who inst were you want to be"
Better yet, quit asking unknown people for advice. Pick up some books from people who have won awards. Glenn Newick makes a good book, he is a Benchrester Hal of Fame member. He is also making a new book. A chapter or two of I have had the honor of proof reading for him. or get the book by Glen Zedicker. he has shot with David Tubbs and together they with many awards. You will learn more about how to get a great handload than just neck sizing.
Their advice may not be free, but you get what you pay for. Based on someone the advice I have seen posted I would say that still holds true.
BTW if you have Forster hone your dies, you wont over work the brass. That is the hole point of having them hone the dies. So the dies match as close as is reasonable to your chamber. I sure as heck wouldn't take advice from someone who doesn't know how to anneal his brass to keep them useful.
Come on people, if you don't really know or have not really done it all, if you have not publish or went to school for it.. then be careful about spreading free advice that could possibly be dangerous.
Do your homework, because some of what i have read sounds cliche and would draw chuckles from the real Pros in the business.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
My dis satisfaction with Redding dies stems from the need to either grind the bottom of the die or the top of the shell holder in order to bump the shoulder on every set I have. I know I can buy their "comp shell holders" that are pre ground to allow you to bump the shoulder. I don't have this issue with Forster dies and I can use them straight out of the box with good / repeatable results. The cost and quality of the Forster Ultra Seater die is excellent as well. Forster also has the easily adjustable fine tune for seating depth at the top of the die so you can set the micrometer on a whole number and adjust from there. Much simpler, same (or better) quality and less expensive. What's not to like???
My dis satisfaction with Redding dies stems from the need to either grind the bottom of the die or the top of the shell holder in order to bump the shoulder on every set I have. I know I can buy their "comp shell holders" that are pre ground to allow you to bump the shoulder. I don't have this issue with Forster dies and I can use them straight out of the box with good / repeatable results. The cost and quality of the Forster Ultra Seater die is excellent as well. Forster also has the easily adjustable fine tune for seating depth at the top of the die so you can set the micrometer on a whole number and adjust from there. Much simpler, same (or better) quality and less expensive. What's not to like???
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Very true. I hate trying to find a machinist that truly understands why I want something done. Just telling them to grind the bottom of the die square is okay, but if they understand why you are doing it then you leave with more confidence.
I have never had a Forster that needed grinding but then again i never buy stock from them, They make all my dies from fired cases. Again, it is the best $10 I ever spent. I assume you use a head space gauge of some sort correct? The biggest way to jack up a load is to follow the direction, "screw die until it touches the shell holder" Ha yeah right.
Very true. I hate trying to find a machinist that truly understands why I want something done. Just telling them to grind the bottom of the die square is okay, but if they understand why you are doing it then you leave with more confidence.
I have never had a Forster that needed grinding but then again i never buy stock from them, They make all my dies from fired cases. Again, it is the best $10 I ever spent. I assume you use a head space gauge of some sort correct? The biggest way to jack up a load is to follow the direction, "screw die until it touches the shell holder" Ha yeah right.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gmich</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest way to jack up a load is to follow the direction, "screw die until it touches the shell holder" Ha yeah right. </div></div>
Even worse when you screw the die down 1/8 turn after contact with the shell holder and the shoulder hasn't even thought about moving.
This is what I use to measure the shoulder.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gmich</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest way to jack up a load is to follow the direction, "screw die until it touches the shell holder" Ha yeah right. </div></div>
Even worse when you screw the die down 1/8 turn after contact with the shell holder and the shoulder hasn't even thought about moving.
This is what I use to measure the shoulder.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
It occurs to me that in your case, going with the BR case holders wont help since you don't have enough seat depth. Adding more wont help until you grind it off. Of course you don't really have that problem because that is why you went with Forster. I just didn't want others to follow a line of advice that would not address the problem.
It occurs to me that in your case, going with the BR case holders wont help since you don't have enough seat depth. Adding more wont help until you grind it off. Of course you don't really have that problem because that is why you went with Forster. I just didn't want others to follow a line of advice that would not address the problem.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno what is up with this FL sizing trend, but if you only want sub MOA you can get that by doing FL sure, you want 1/4 MOA consistently, I have only been able to do it neck sizing. Not saying 1/4 cant be had by FL resizing cause I am sure someone somewhere will claim they do it, but in MY experience reloading Neck sizing has been the only way to go. I reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber. My .02 </div></div>
Funny. I was gonna say I don't know what the hell is up with this neck sizing trend. The trend is that most people are too lazy or dumb to learn to use a FL die correctly, that is the only story here and it has been the story for a long time. Why anyone with a tactical rifle would even think about neck sizing is beyond my comprehension. I won't even think about a neck die(anymore) even for a competition. If I were to get back into BR games I would still FL size. Contrary to what some believe, many winning BR shooters FL size their brass, its a fact.
Claiming neck sizing gives consistent 1/4MOA groups from 308, 30-06, and 260 is a real stretch if you want to attribute that to the neck sizing alone. I think it is a wild claim from someone with little experience, what it sounds like anyway. What kind of rifle is shooting these consistent 1/4MOA groups? Wouldn't be a Savge would it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno what is up with this FL sizing trend, but if you only want sub MOA you can get that by doing FL sure, you want 1/4 MOA consistently, I have only been able to do it neck sizing. Not saying 1/4 cant be had by FL resizing cause I am sure someone somewhere will claim they do it, but in MY experience reloading Neck sizing has been the only way to go. I reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber. My .02 </div></div>
Funny. I was gonna say I don't know what the hell is up with this neck sizing trend. The trend is that most people are too lazy or dumb to learn to use a FL die correctly, that is the only story here and it has been the story for a long time. Why anyone with a tactical rifle would even think about neck sizing is beyond my comprehension. I won't even think about a neck die(anymore) even for a competition. If I were to get back into BR games I would still FL size. Contrary to what some believe, many winning BR shooters FL size their brass, its a fact.
Claiming neck sizing gives consistent 1/4MOA groups from 308, 30-06, and 260 is a real stretch if you want to attribute that to the neck sizing alone. I think it is a wild claim from someone with little experience, what it sounds like anyway. What kind of rifle is shooting these consistent 1/4MOA groups? Wouldn't be a Savge would it?
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Im a FL sizing all the time kind of guy. Seems to me that I get much more consistent loads by starting with each round being as exactly the same as the last one. I never have feed problems or bolt lift issues...it just works for me.
Im a FL sizing all the time kind of guy. Seems to me that I get much more consistent loads by starting with each round being as exactly the same as the last one. I never have feed problems or bolt lift issues...it just works for me.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I neck size using the Redding Type S Match die set, primarily because that's what I was taught to use by the guy who got my dad and I into reloading. However, I've learned a lot over the last few years by sifting through the opinions that abound on the subject around here and will likely invest in a custom F/L die in the not too distant future.
That being said, I think a lot of the differences in folk's feelings toward one or the other really depends on what they're shooting, how they're using that rifle, and how fast they're pushing their loads. I especially think one's experience with how many loads you can get when neck sizing only before having to body size revolves around the velocity/pressure they're loading to.
I had 25 loads on my very first batch of Lapua .243 brass and 20 on another, before I had to body size the cases due to an increase in felt resistance when closing the bolt on a round. That was with my tamest load, an 85 gr SGK going 2986 fps. I currently have 22 loads on another batch that have only been used for 105 A-Maxes going 2775 fps, again neck sizing only. That's still a tame load in comparison to the velocities that a lot of other folks try to attain with that bullet, but it's noticeably hotter than the 85 SGK load. And, for what it's worth, I've never annealed or trimmed any of my cases; only chamfering and sizing. I can echo what Goin' Hot said though, regarding the Redding body die/shell holder relationship. I ran into the same issue and just wound up with 10 or so cases that I could size enough and had to cull 'em out.
Point being... folks' mileage is going to vary even when, on the surface, they appear to be doing the same thing regarding the loading method they're referring to. Investigate why they say what they say thoroughly before making your mind up.
I neck size using the Redding Type S Match die set, primarily because that's what I was taught to use by the guy who got my dad and I into reloading. However, I've learned a lot over the last few years by sifting through the opinions that abound on the subject around here and will likely invest in a custom F/L die in the not too distant future.
That being said, I think a lot of the differences in folk's feelings toward one or the other really depends on what they're shooting, how they're using that rifle, and how fast they're pushing their loads. I especially think one's experience with how many loads you can get when neck sizing only before having to body size revolves around the velocity/pressure they're loading to.
I had 25 loads on my very first batch of Lapua .243 brass and 20 on another, before I had to body size the cases due to an increase in felt resistance when closing the bolt on a round. That was with my tamest load, an 85 gr SGK going 2986 fps. I currently have 22 loads on another batch that have only been used for 105 A-Maxes going 2775 fps, again neck sizing only. That's still a tame load in comparison to the velocities that a lot of other folks try to attain with that bullet, but it's noticeably hotter than the 85 SGK load. And, for what it's worth, I've never annealed or trimmed any of my cases; only chamfering and sizing. I can echo what Goin' Hot said though, regarding the Redding body die/shell holder relationship. I ran into the same issue and just wound up with 10 or so cases that I could size enough and had to cull 'em out.
Point being... folks' mileage is going to vary even when, on the surface, they appear to be doing the same thing regarding the loading method they're referring to. Investigate why they say what they say thoroughly before making your mind up.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hookturnr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im a FL sizing all the time kind of guy. Seems to me that I get much more consistent loads by starting with each round being as exactly the same as the last one. I never have feed problems or bolt lift issues...it just works for me. </div></div>
Plus +1. I now FL my brass so its consistent every time, Plus I'm a hunter and need it to feed at all times.To each their own..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hookturnr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im a FL sizing all the time kind of guy. Seems to me that I get much more consistent loads by starting with each round being as exactly the same as the last one. I never have feed problems or bolt lift issues...it just works for me. </div></div>
Plus +1. I now FL my brass so its consistent every time, Plus I'm a hunter and need it to feed at all times.To each their own..
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I use FL Reddings with bushing on all mine. I get .001-.003" run out 95% of the time and if the barrel is up to it they will do .25" @ 100. I mostly test @ 300 to 600 and can't hold that but can do .50 moa regularly. Further out they will hold .75 to 1000 on a GOOD day. After a good load it's All in the barrel if your up to it.
I use FL Reddings with bushing on all mine. I get .001-.003" run out 95% of the time and if the barrel is up to it they will do .25" @ 100. I mostly test @ 300 to 600 and can't hold that but can do .50 moa regularly. Further out they will hold .75 to 1000 on a GOOD day. After a good load it's All in the barrel if your up to it.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<span style="font-style: italic">rifle: Spec M40A3 build
Brass-Lapua
Bullets-SMK 175
Primer Federal Gold Match
It took me about a year to get my data to be consistent after trying multiple bullet lengths, I do not crimp my bullets, I sit actually .003 of the lands cause it was more accurate than .001'' ...<span style="text-decoration: underline">I do neck size</span> cause it yeilds better results for me than when I dont which the OP asked for, but I do anneal, I do turn my necks before I anneal,...Lapua brass ... separate it by volume capacity... ANy more details required? ... I do not count my best groupings as consistent</span>
Oh no, no more details are required, I think that says enough; I'm gullible and duly impressed. (Well, not that it matters, but you tried others and only found the bullet length of SMK 175s to work well in your .308 cartridges?)
You say your .308 is less accurate than your .30-06 and .260; does that mean you consistantly obtain sub 1/4 MOA from them or that it's just easier? And your best groups must be terrific (perhaps you often shoot in the zeros?), with not just one but three rifles; that's amazing shooting to a duffer like me! But, I accept you could easily win <span style="text-decoration: underline">many</span> LR BR matches with your .260, .308 and .30-06 using off-the shelf commercial bullets if you wished.
However, as I suspected and now given the total picture, it seems your neck sizing tip may not actually be the key to your fantastic "groupings" so neck sizing of itself may be much less helpful to the OP for shooting in the twos, or less, than you convey. ??
<span style="font-style: italic">rifle: Spec M40A3 build
Brass-Lapua
Bullets-SMK 175
Primer Federal Gold Match
It took me about a year to get my data to be consistent after trying multiple bullet lengths, I do not crimp my bullets, I sit actually .003 of the lands cause it was more accurate than .001'' ...<span style="text-decoration: underline">I do neck size</span> cause it yeilds better results for me than when I dont which the OP asked for, but I do anneal, I do turn my necks before I anneal,...Lapua brass ... separate it by volume capacity... ANy more details required? ... I do not count my best groupings as consistent</span>
Oh no, no more details are required, I think that says enough; I'm gullible and duly impressed. (Well, not that it matters, but you tried others and only found the bullet length of SMK 175s to work well in your .308 cartridges?)
You say your .308 is less accurate than your .30-06 and .260; does that mean you consistantly obtain sub 1/4 MOA from them or that it's just easier? And your best groups must be terrific (perhaps you often shoot in the zeros?), with not just one but three rifles; that's amazing shooting to a duffer like me! But, I accept you could easily win <span style="text-decoration: underline">many</span> LR BR matches with your .260, .308 and .30-06 using off-the shelf commercial bullets if you wished.
However, as I suspected and now given the total picture, it seems your neck sizing tip may not actually be the key to your fantastic "groupings" so neck sizing of itself may be much less helpful to the OP for shooting in the twos, or less, than you convey. ??
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."
Let me get this straight; you consistantly get 1/4 moa from your .308, .30-06 and .260 and you attribute it to neck sizing? That's some great shooting but I think it may have more to do with your spectactular shooting skills, some expertly selected and prepped cases, a fantastic shooting bench and rest, plus the rifle and bullets much more than the caliber or simple neck sizing!
Please at least tell us what rifles and bullets are you doing that with? </div></div>
I will tell you the details of my 308 since 308 I "think" takes the most attention to shoot that well at range with because ballistically it is inferior to the other two which means i spend way more time working on my 308 loads than the other two:
rifle: Spec M40A3 build
Brass-Lapua
Bullets-SMK 175
Primer Federal Gold Match
Powder- Depends on how cold it is outside on grains but I use IMR 4895 or Varget
It took me about a year to get my data to be consistent after trying multiple bullet lengths, I do not crimp my bullets, I sit actually .003 of the lands cause it was more accurate than .001''
As for brass prep I do neck size cause it yeilds better results for me than when I dont which the OP asked for, but I do anneal, I do turn my necks before I anneal, I clean my brass every 2 firings, I clean the primer pockets every firing and even though Lapua brass is the most consistent brass I have ever used I still separate it by volume capacity and have different charges per batch of brass because differences in volume affects what the necessary charge should be, and I determine that with my ballistics program, Lee Shooter and my Chrony. ANy more details required?
p.s. I think it is important to say that I shoot consistent 1/4 MOA out to about 500 yards and at 500 I shoot 2/5-3/5 MOA consistently (I do not count my best groupings as consistent shooting by anymeans and yes I do get a lot of trigger time) </div></div>
This is so juicy I simply don't know where to start.
Let me just cut to the chase and simply say you are crazy if you aren't shooting sanctioned BR matches with these rifles! You could be setting world records. Is there a possibility that you may teach classes on handloading and shooting principles in the near future?
The reloading section is always full of entertainment...without fail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."
Let me get this straight; you consistantly get 1/4 moa from your .308, .30-06 and .260 and you attribute it to neck sizing? That's some great shooting but I think it may have more to do with your spectactular shooting skills, some expertly selected and prepped cases, a fantastic shooting bench and rest, plus the rifle and bullets much more than the caliber or simple neck sizing!
Please at least tell us what rifles and bullets are you doing that with? </div></div>
I will tell you the details of my 308 since 308 I "think" takes the most attention to shoot that well at range with because ballistically it is inferior to the other two which means i spend way more time working on my 308 loads than the other two:
rifle: Spec M40A3 build
Brass-Lapua
Bullets-SMK 175
Primer Federal Gold Match
Powder- Depends on how cold it is outside on grains but I use IMR 4895 or Varget
It took me about a year to get my data to be consistent after trying multiple bullet lengths, I do not crimp my bullets, I sit actually .003 of the lands cause it was more accurate than .001''
As for brass prep I do neck size cause it yeilds better results for me than when I dont which the OP asked for, but I do anneal, I do turn my necks before I anneal, I clean my brass every 2 firings, I clean the primer pockets every firing and even though Lapua brass is the most consistent brass I have ever used I still separate it by volume capacity and have different charges per batch of brass because differences in volume affects what the necessary charge should be, and I determine that with my ballistics program, Lee Shooter and my Chrony. ANy more details required?
p.s. I think it is important to say that I shoot consistent 1/4 MOA out to about 500 yards and at 500 I shoot 2/5-3/5 MOA consistently (I do not count my best groupings as consistent shooting by anymeans and yes I do get a lot of trigger time) </div></div>
This is so juicy I simply don't know where to start.
Let me just cut to the chase and simply say you are crazy if you aren't shooting sanctioned BR matches with these rifles! You could be setting world records. Is there a possibility that you may teach classes on handloading and shooting principles in the near future?
The reloading section is always full of entertainment...without fail.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
blakheaven - consistent 1/4 moa to about 500yds
450 yds is about 500?
how about we post 50 1.2 inch circles at 450 yds and you put 1 round at least breaking the line of each in 2 hours
that would be consistent (but a little more than 1/4 moa)
blakheaven - consistent 1/4 moa to about 500yds
450 yds is about 500?
how about we post 50 1.2 inch circles at 450 yds and you put 1 round at least breaking the line of each in 2 hours
that would be consistent (but a little more than 1/4 moa)
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neck sizing means no lube
</div></div>
I am with this, I like to skip the lube, so I neck size only when it works
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neck sizing means no lube
</div></div>
I am with this, I like to skip the lube, so I neck size only when it works
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Blakheaven: "<span style="font-style: italic">you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."</span>
Armor: <span style="font-style: italic">"This is so juicy I simply don't know where to start. Let me just cut to the chase and simply say you are crazy if you aren't shooting sanctioned BR matches with these rifles! You could be setting world records."</span>
Yeah, the humility is astonishing isn't it? And for all we know he may be doing that prone or even off-hand. ?? But it seems <span style="font-style: italic">"Originally Posted By: blakheaven"</span> has been deleted. Anyway, 105amatt's question seems to have been answered.
Blakheaven: "<span style="font-style: italic">you want 1/4 MOA consistently, ... do it neck sizing. I ... reload 308, 30'06 and 260 primarily so maybe there's a difference with the caliber."</span>
Armor: <span style="font-style: italic">"This is so juicy I simply don't know where to start. Let me just cut to the chase and simply say you are crazy if you aren't shooting sanctioned BR matches with these rifles! You could be setting world records."</span>
Yeah, the humility is astonishing isn't it? And for all we know he may be doing that prone or even off-hand. ?? But it seems <span style="font-style: italic">"Originally Posted By: blakheaven"</span> has been deleted. Anyway, 105amatt's question seems to have been answered.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 105amatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which do you prefer and how come? I have always FL sized my stuff, but now I am looking at a neck sizer for a couple guns.
-Matt </div></div>
Years ago I tried neck only dies. The enthusiasm ended shortly.
Personally the best investment in reloading dies I've made to date are the Warner dies. Expensive but the best of "all" worlds. Read this article for a full understanding.
http://www.6mmbr.com/warnerdie.html
5 years ago I decided that 6x47L was a cartridge I'd always have a rifle chambered in. So I designed my own reamer(with help), ordered it from PTG, then the custom Warner die made perfectly for my chambers fired brass. Finally I'm satisfied
I should mention this is for a tactical rifle. I've never had a problem with a cartridge going into the chamber in dusty conditions.
My rifle shoots less than 1/4MOA all day long, LOL, (just kidding)!!! I hate it when people make that statement! The rifle shoots well enough to win a match and has done so on more than one occasion.
In the past I had problems with Redding type S bushing dies forming a donut right at the neck shoulder junction. Then having to purchase a separate FL die anyway. I wasn't happy with how much the body die sized down the case either, IMO too much.
I recently bought a Forster bushing/bump die for my new 7mmRM. It sizes the neck (comes with 3 different sized bushings) and bumps the shoulder while not sizing the body at all. I like it a lot! However I had to buy a Larry Willis belted magnum collet size die for the bulge forming above the belt because the cases were too tight in the Wilson arbor press seater,(I would have had to buy one anyway if I had bought a FL die). I like having the top area of the case body left alone. The rifle shoots excellent.
I have some custom Hornady dies that are nice. Both FL and bushing.
If you plan on staying with a particular chambering it's worth the money for custom dies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 105amatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which do you prefer and how come? I have always FL sized my stuff, but now I am looking at a neck sizer for a couple guns.
-Matt </div></div>
Years ago I tried neck only dies. The enthusiasm ended shortly.
Personally the best investment in reloading dies I've made to date are the Warner dies. Expensive but the best of "all" worlds. Read this article for a full understanding.
http://www.6mmbr.com/warnerdie.html
5 years ago I decided that 6x47L was a cartridge I'd always have a rifle chambered in. So I designed my own reamer(with help), ordered it from PTG, then the custom Warner die made perfectly for my chambers fired brass. Finally I'm satisfied
My rifle shoots less than 1/4MOA all day long, LOL, (just kidding)!!! I hate it when people make that statement! The rifle shoots well enough to win a match and has done so on more than one occasion.
In the past I had problems with Redding type S bushing dies forming a donut right at the neck shoulder junction. Then having to purchase a separate FL die anyway. I wasn't happy with how much the body die sized down the case either, IMO too much.
I recently bought a Forster bushing/bump die for my new 7mmRM. It sizes the neck (comes with 3 different sized bushings) and bumps the shoulder while not sizing the body at all. I like it a lot! However I had to buy a Larry Willis belted magnum collet size die for the bulge forming above the belt because the cases were too tight in the Wilson arbor press seater,(I would have had to buy one anyway if I had bought a FL die). I like having the top area of the case body left alone. The rifle shoots excellent.
I have some custom Hornady dies that are nice. Both FL and bushing.
If you plan on staying with a particular chambering it's worth the money for custom dies.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
I just neck sized my first cases last night using a Lee collet die for .308 on fire formed cases. Been using fl dies till now. We'll see if there is any accuracy gain. I can tell you I like not having to use lube and tumble the brass a second time.
I just neck sized my first cases last night using a Lee collet die for .308 on fire formed cases. Been using fl dies till now. We'll see if there is any accuracy gain. I can tell you I like not having to use lube and tumble the brass a second time.
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
Like Steve123, I have been using the Forster bushing/bump die in .308 for my f-class gun. It works great, allows you to vary shoulder set back, neck tension with bushings, and how much of the neck is sized.
Being able to control the neck tension/sizing independent of the shoulder bump is very nice. The fact that you can assure easy chambering without body sizing is icing on the cake!
Like Steve123, I have been using the Forster bushing/bump die in .308 for my f-class gun. It works great, allows you to vary shoulder set back, neck tension with bushings, and how much of the neck is sized.
Being able to control the neck tension/sizing independent of the shoulder bump is very nice. The fact that you can assure easy chambering without body sizing is icing on the cake!
Re: Which do you prefer FL or Neck sizing?
+1 on what Steve said. I have an use Warner dies almost exclusively (I do have and use some Neil Jones and some Nowlan custom dies). I bump the shoulder back 0.0005 to 0.001, and size the neck with my sizing dies.
All of the rifles that I have had built are snug chambers (some are tight-neck some are not), and the custom dies work wonders on sizing what you want and leaving the rest alone.
Even so, I anneal my brass frequently, and have had no problems with brass splitting.
Jeffvn
+1 on what Steve said. I have an use Warner dies almost exclusively (I do have and use some Neil Jones and some Nowlan custom dies). I bump the shoulder back 0.0005 to 0.001, and size the neck with my sizing dies.
All of the rifles that I have had built are snug chambers (some are tight-neck some are not), and the custom dies work wonders on sizing what you want and leaving the rest alone.
Even so, I anneal my brass frequently, and have had no problems with brass splitting.
Jeffvn
