Rifle Scopes Which Horus?

#51
Lowlight said:
You could always follow T.H. in the Magpul video when they stuck a 20MOA STOMP mount on a 20MOA rail and couldn't zero at 100 yards.

Zero on the top dot of the mil dot reticle and now you have 9 Mils below :)
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LL,

You have a double standard happening here.

You state this... "Anyway you slice it, the center of the reticle is the sweet spot and physiologically we are draw to defined intersections". Then you state this..."Zero on the top dot of the mil dot reticle and now you have 9 Mils below".

Why then do you advocate zeroing on the top mildot? Not only is it not centered in the scope (sweet spot) but there is only one defined intersection which won't be used unless one is holding over exactly 5 mils and assuming no wind is involved. Being accustomed to H reticles and doing such is just ass backwards and archaic to me. Why? Because I would have had to alter my 100Y zero to begin with by dialing 5 mils up which is something completely unnecessary with a Horus and yes I know some of the modern 1/2 mil hash reticles have the same capability. Also you stated..."We are drawn to defined intersections", well that fully describes the concept of H reticles with many defined intersections. Ironically the Fly on the window screen is a perfect example of this. Which brings me to my next point, same point I've already touched on earlier.

As you stated, Horus didn't invent the mil reticle. The basic mil reticle was found lacking so changes came. As we know nowadays there are many mil based reticles. What were the improvements? Half mil marks and smaller increments, numbers indicating mils, more mils below the center crosshair and the list goes on. The message I'm trying to convey "IS"- it doesn't matter how far away a target is or how windy it is when I'm using a Horus reticle because I can hold for it in the reticle without dialing. There is no guessing where in the reticle to aim, unlike many reticles, because I can see clearly defined in the reticle .1 mil.

I haven't seen any of the videos you mention. I'm assuming they were attempting ELR, right? I just don't see the need for 40 moa angle. I was able to hit our 2356Y plate with 20 mils dialed on and holding over the rest but holding off 3 mils as well, this with a 30 moa base.

I wont ever be convinced regarding the negativity of the Horus reticle system. I see only benefits. Benefits which I have capitalized on now for 6 years, even against you before.
 
#52
Which Horus?

steve123 said:
The message I'm trying to convey "IS"- it doesn't matter how far away a target is or how windy it is when I'm using a Horus reticle because I can hold for it in the reticle without dialing.
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The Horus also has the same amount of windage as does any other reticle, assuming both are at the same magnification.
 
#53
Graham said:
Steve,

You are attempting to narrow the definition of a mildot reticle to a single version that will give you an argument.

The fact remains that, assuming both scopes are at the same magnification, all the Mils available in an H59 will also be available in the scope that allows hold unders.

Without a full vertical crosshair we are no longer talking about a different way of representing a Mil, the issue becomes a limitation on the functionality of the scope.
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Graham, the context when I answered you earlier was concerning a conventional mildot.

You stated this... "The H-59 reticle is useless for hold unders, making it even less practical than a conventional mildot". We weren't discussing a modern half mil reticle at the moment that has mils 10 or 15 below center because if that many mils are available why on earth would someone be dialing up to hold under when they can just holdover, haha.

I was mistaken earlier BTW, the H-59 "only" has 25 mils below center available which is still 5 mils more than most modern half mil reticles even if the top most mil hash was used for the zero. I admit we are getting ridiculous here with holding over for long ELR shots. I can do it but typically dial for the shot or dial 15 or 20 mils and holdover more if need be. The fact remains I'd have to set the mag low but I could still make a 25 mil holdover without dialing. Again, getting ridiculous here but I can also dial 24 mils with the S&B and holdover another 25 mils if I wanted to.

I just checked my SWFA 3-15 and my S&B 5-25 H59. The SWFA has 15 mils total for holdover if I were to have the top hash as zero, meaning dialing 5 mils up first. The S&B has a few mils less at 15x including the 2 mils available over the center crosshair but it has a few more available at 12x. Being that both scopes are variable and meant to be used at the most suitable mag for the application I'd still take the H-59 at slightly lower power without the need to change my zero.

H-reticle is still more versatile.
 
#54
Lowlight said:
Spin Much Steve,

I never advocated anything of the sort, I simply stated, as in the Magpul video you "could" do this in reference to your position.

and yes, you and I have competed together, and admittedly I woke that morning in no mood to shoot, answer this, did you ever beat my 56 I shot the month prior to you and I shooting together ? Did you with your Horus ever beat a 56 out 60... super simple question.

You can improve on something like a standard mil dot reticle, and you can over engineer the thing too. First Impressions don't lie, another simple truism.

You can spin it all You want because it works for YOU but that doesn't change the facts of the matter. I have more than 6 years experience with the Horus, I have taught classes to the Army on the Horus paid for by Horus before you ever knew what they were. I watch and benefited from their $3000 prize money they used to give and watched every one of their side matches. I stuff my pockets with their prize money and used a Klein reticle doing it.

Sorry Steve, you're on an island, it's just a cycle and like before this cycle will spin away, only to be revisited again. Funny at SHOT T.H. was said to have bought 20 Bushnell Scopes for A1st with G2 reticules in them. As he moves so will the conversation.

also more recently, i shot K&M with the event that required to you run up a tower, and engage 5 targets from 300 yards to 700 yards with no ranging, just using holds as the timing was 1:30 for the run, 5 targets with a max of 6 shots. I cleaned the stage with an MSR (holding windage and elevation) in 54 seconds, no ranging just holds, No Horus, and no ranges prior.
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Well I'm flattered that you remembered me. Honestly that was the first long range field course match I'd ever shot. I'm a little better now, wink. Maybe you were having a bad day, we all do. You sure seemed to have a bee up your butt and definitely had plenty to say about my scope, LOL. The SRM is 9 hours away so I've only been back a few more times. I love that match and sure wish I lived closer. Congrats on your 56! That's awesome for sure.

Believe me when I say this...the AZPRC is much harder than the SRM is. As shown by our hit ratios and evidenced by the farther distances. Heck, our closest target is a MGM mini popper at 390Y. You come on over sometime and shoot a few 10 for 10's and break the course record twice on out to 1080Y using holdovers in 10-15 mph variable winds and we'll further discuss what reticles work best for such.

Although I belong to a small minority I'm not alone. I use other reticles besides Horus, I don't need a H reticle on every rifle. I'm not saying everyone should like Horus reticles. I'm not saying a lot of things, but I've said enough, LOL.
 
#55
Which Horus?

You guys are getting off track: Either reticle won't make anyone a better shooter. Although that is a claim I've heard in the past, which was likely made for the purpose of selling reticles.
 
#56
steve123 said:
The message I'm trying to convey "IS"- it doesn't matter how far away a target is or how windy it is when I'm using a Horus reticle because I can hold for it in the reticle without dialing. There is no guessing where in the reticle to aim, unlike many reticles, because I can see clearly defined in the reticle .1 mil.
Click to expand...

I can do the exact same thing with my MSR. Could do the same thing with a Gen 1 Mildot. if you can read mils and know what you're doing then it's never an issue.
 
#60
Darkside-Six said:
I can do the exact same thing with my MSR. Could do the same thing with a Gen 1 Mildot. if you can read mils and know what you're doing then it's never an issue.
Click to expand...


Do me a favor and take either one of those reticles and find a 24.1 mil holdover and 8 mil holdoff in them. Because when I stated "in" the reticle I actually meant "in" the reticle.

Okay how about another example using those two reticles vs H59. We are at a long range tactical match. Your zero is the center crosshair and so is mine. We are shooting 308's in 30 mph full value winds. The stage requires two shots on a 1.5 moa steel at 1100Y. First shot is a no dialing shot and the other shot you are required to dial elevation but not windage. Our dope calls for 7 mils holdoff and 11.3 mils elevation.

What you'll observe through your scope is a .75 mil thick bar obscuring the first shot. You shoot, and missed by .6 mil because that's the best you could swag. For the second shot you'll be aiming so far out into the FOV of your scope that a swagged guess is going to make you say this, !@#$%^ because you were way off. In a fit of remorseless and absolute rage, because you felt the stage was unfair and it's too windy to be shooting anyway, you throw your rifle on the ground and something breaks.

You, knowing that I am next in line turn around and I'm know where to be found because I'm old and smart and I'm in the Jacuzzi back at the motel because there's no way I'm shooting a 308 in 30 mph winds, LOL. Just kidding

Back to our regular programming...Now go look at a image of a H-59. I will observe through my scope that it has holdoffs on the horizontal reticle in .2 mil increments to 15 mils. I see "in" the reticle exactly where 8 mils is. I take my shot and didn't hit SH!T because I was shooting a 308, LOL but I got closer than you. For the second shot I could see exactly "in" the reticle where to aim but was wishing I had brought my 6x47 or 6.5 SAUM instead.

Isn't that a nice little story?
 
#62
Lowlight said:
Last month for the Larry Vickers TV Show I shot ELR at Gunsite with a BEAST,

Mile High set the rifle up to only have 24 Mils of adjustment and I shot 1 Mile and 2400 yards, which required I use 31 Mils of adjustment. I held over too and hit, and stayed closer to the center of the reticle than if I tried using more of it. If they added a bit more base to the rifle, I could have dialed the entire thing as the BEAST has 36 MILS of adjustment. Holding works, no one disputes that, but it is FAR FROM OPTIMAL, especially at ELR Distances where it all matters.

Just because we can do something doesn't me we should do it that way.
Click to expand...


I saw the pics of your gear. Over the top cool!

I'd like to put a Beast on a 375CT for ELR someday. Probably not going to happen though.

I'm with you though. At those distances I'd rather just dial the elevation but I still like holding off for wind. I have no choice but to dial and hold for the rest on a 2400Y shot.
 
#63
Graham said:
Sometimes I quote myself.
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Graham, I owe you a big thanks which I'll talk about shortly.

First off, I don't have a good way to take decent reticle pics or the knowledge to pull a pic from google images and post it here. If someone wouldn't mind doing this I'd appreciate it.

So being annoyed first by your quote which is so basically simple it really shouldn't even be mentioned BTW. I went out to the shop and got out the SWFA 3-15 and the S&B 5-25. I set both scopes at 15x then studied them. I found that the H-59 in the S&B has exactly 13.4 mils available to the edge of the FOV from the center dot. The SWFA with the Milquad has a swagged 10.6 mils available to the edge from the crosshairs center. At 25x the S&B has 8.2 mils to the edge.

Now the difference between the two. "sometimes I quote myself as well, LOL", ISZZZ I can plainly see "in" the horizontal reticle 13.4 mils while being able to easily discern .1 mil.

Onto the milquad reticle. The horizontal crosshair part of the reticle ends at 5 mils. The 1 mil THICK side bar begins at 6 mils and goes to the edge of the FOV with a indicator at 10 mils. So I could choose any magnification in that scope and cannot exactly discern .1 mil using that 1 mil thick bar past the 6 mil mark. SWAG yes, easily discern NO.

It would seem then that nearly every scope has a different sized FOV and/or that the magnification numbers on the mag dial aren't exactly what they are labeled to be. Both of which will affect how much MOA, IPHY or MILS are available in their scope.

The thanks...I thank you Graham because I learned something I had never even thought of before!!! Today I realized that I can use the H-59 reticle to determine what magnification my scope is on without ever having to look at the mag ring. I now know that my S&B is at 15x when there is exactly 13.4 mils at the edge of the FOV. With a little experimenting, pen and paper I'll be able to record the magnifications and corresponding mils in the FOV to put in the back of my mind for further reference. Who knows, maybe I can use this to my advantage.
 
#64
Which Horus?

Steve, that's some great marketing: You should work for Horus.

But there's also nothing new or revolutionary about calibrating your magnification ring, confirming the subtension of your reticle or optically calibrating your rifle scope.
 
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#65
unreconstructed said:
(or care.)

Using Mil jargon doesn't impress

Besides, what does medium frequency direction finding have to do with how Horus reticles are ridiculously over priced and offer nothing over mil dots anyway? ha
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^^^^^^BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!


but no really, i will admit the early variants of the horus were a bit much (#37 whew!!) even the 58 has a main crosshair that is too thick (for shooting at stuff that doesn't shoot back) when zoomed all the way in. but the beaty of a horus is it was designed to shoot PEOPLE not targets, and in that area it excels.

Having said that the 59 is my favorite reticle and it seems to do just fine in competitions, it's all in the user. So if the OP wants a horus, let him get one- once he learns it, he may like it. Or not, and he will sell it. Maybe we shouldn't try to talk him out of it as much- or maybe you should-??

Hey frank what reticle is in the beast on the vid you posted above?
 
#66
I neither dislike or love the Horus reticles (don't like the h37 due to the offset) but I do like the h59 in some cases. In others I love my MSR. I'm looking to buy a new ultra short S&B for a gun for my wife and wished they had the h59 available since she is somewhat new and has never shot a match and I know even with a small amount of practice if it's a reticel hold stage she will probably miss half the shots with my MSR equipped setups. If she has a Horus I'm pretty sure those shots become hits. Either way I think the extra cash for the Horus is stupid as shit even though I'll probably buy more in the future...

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
#67
Will someone please shoot a 'Tall Target' type of test with a S&B 5-25 with a H59.
If a 'Tall Target' test is used to check the calibration of turrets, surely a 'Grid Target' test would show how much distortion occurs on the edges of a scope when only using 'hold', and therefore we can actually have proof that there is an offset distortion at the edges of scopes... and therefore why the Horus won't work.

If there is distortion, then everyone will know what to avoid...

If there is no distortion... then can we please put this topic to bed.
 
#68
dAyLiTe,

Even without shooting that sort of test, I can tell you that distortion occurs at the outer edge of any scope when I am wearing my normal prescription eyewear; it shows up as a not-so-subtle bending of the reticle stadia. Furthermore, the character of that distortion changes as my head position varies.

Regardless, this is not an issue as I would not attempt to hold-over that close to the edge of the image with any reticle.
 
#69
I just bought an S&B PMII 5-25 with the H59 reticle. Personally I like it. I can shoot holds, or dial, or stack mils. The glass is terrific (it's an S&B so, duh) but I was really interested in the reticle and being able to shoot pure holds. I shot in green jungle last week, first time ever shooting long range, and I was making hits. 1000 yards was 10.5 mils elevation and 2 mils wind, hit. I had a nice little crosshair for that, for others was was a bit in space between the grid, but it didn't bother me.

Could I see my hits and misses? Sometimes. At the farther targets I couldn't see my hits on the steel, but that is probably more me than the reticle, still learning my fundamentals and managing the recoil to be able to see and follow up the shot. Green grass hillside and I couldn't see my misses more than I could, but even the expert spotter was 50/50 in that department. End of the day I spotted all my own shots except maybe one at 850 yards. Different hillside than before so who knows.

At the longer ranges you don't HAVE to dial back magnification to make shots but it actually kind of helps. At 1000 yards I was shooting 10-12 power, it was actually easier than 25 power. I was kind of surprised I wasn't using more power on the longer shots. Maybe in the future I will, who knows. First time out there.

Opinions are like orgasms, only mine matters and I don't care if you have one. :)
 
#70
StampCreek said:
I just bought an S&B PMII 5-25 with the H59 reticle. Personally I like it. I can shoot holds, or dial, or stack mils. The glass is terrific (it's an S&B so, duh) but I was really interested in the reticle and being able to shoot pure holds. I shot in green jungle last week, first time ever shooting long range, and I was making hits. 1000 yards was 10.5 mils elevation and 2 mils wind, hit. I had a nice little crosshair for that, for others was was a bit in space between the grid, but it didn't bother me.

Could I see my hits and misses? Sometimes. At the farther targets I couldn't see my hits on the steel, but that is probably more me than the reticle, still learning my fundamentals and managing the recoil to be able to see and follow up the shot. Green grass hillside and I couldn't see my misses more than I could, but even the expert spotter was 50/50 in that department. End of the day I spotted all my own shots except maybe one at 850 yards. Different hillside than before so who knows.

At the longer ranges you don't HAVE to dial back magnification to make shots but it actually kind of helps. At 1000 yards I was shooting 10-12 power, it was actually easier than 25 power. I was kind of surprised I wasn't using more power on the longer shots. Maybe in the future I will, who knows. First time out there.

Opinions are like orgasms, only mine matters and I don't care if you have one. :)
Click to expand...

Way to many people over magnify anyways. All of my scopes are a 25x or higher magnification but they stay on 12-16x most of the time. I had no problems seeing hits or misses when I ran an h59 but it was something that my eyes had to get used to. After about 2 range outtings I was good on that side of things and it worked well.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
#71
Lowlight said:
Don't forget to put a dollar in a jar every time you hold the wrong line...

Especially if you compete when you don't control the conditions, if you're just shooting for fun, by yourself, no big deal, but go to a match with fast stages, you'll be able to afford a second S&B as you feed the jar. :)

its one of the most common mistakes with it...
Click to expand...

I'd say that's a rookie mistake. I never had an issue with mine during matches. :)

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
#73
StampCreek said:
Opinions are like orgasms, only mine matters and I don't care if you have one. :)
Click to expand...

This is why i hate it when a thread says "What is the best.........."

I agree with almost everything that has been said here. Ultimately its shooters choice. H59 vs anything else with its advantages and disadvantages is like the guy with no arms that can shoot his compound bow competitevly. Use it long enough and you learn how to overcome and/or compensate for defficiencies in anything. I like the H59, but i think lowlight said it best, the 400 dollar premium to have one makes me think real hard before I buy it. You have to ask yourself is that money better spent elsewhere.
 
#74
Lowlight said:
Don't forget to put a dollar in a jar every time you hold the wrong line...

Especially if you compete when you don't control the conditions, if you're just shooting for fun, by yourself, no big deal, but go to a match with fast stages, you'll be able to afford a second S&B as you feed the jar. :)

its one of the most common mistakes with it...
Click to expand...


I'd be lying if I said I hadn't held the wrong line before, I'd also be lying if I said I never forgot to dial. Both added up maybe if I got a buck for each type of mistake I could buy a good meal.

If there was anything I'd change about the H-59 it'd be to label each line.

To spin things a little differently. I don't like holding over for any shooting other than off the bipod anymore or at least off a stable rest. For some reason I like the center dot on the H-59 rather than a crosshair. Just personal preference.

It's worth mentioning that if there is a match stage with a bunch of shot's at different distances in a short amount of time that holding over can save enough time to complete that stage whereas many of the other guys weren't able to finish because they dialed. Think about it... When dialing for each shot you must take x amount of time more to dial each shot and over many shots that x amount of time is compounded.

Advantages and disadvantages. What works best for which situation.
 
#75
Yeah, advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the OP was able to garner some good info to make an informed decision. Some folks are just gonna hate though. If MilDot works for you and I like my H59 you're not gonna hear me give you crap. You're making hits, so am I. But I won't dare let you give me garbage for my choices either.

It's like this. I don't think I'm better than anyone else. But no one is better than me either.

Think about it.
 
#78
Every reticle has it's advantages and disadvantages. In the end I tell fellow shooters and students this. A reticle is a measuring tool. Some are more complex and some are simpler than others. In the end they are a tool, but every reticle should be learned because you never know what tool you will have available to you or forced upon you. Relying on one reticle means you have only become accustomed to a crutch. The difference between an amateur and and professional is that the professional will see how new tools and technology can advance our skills and be used. An amateur will rely upon them to compensate for lack of training.

In case anyone is wondering
I primarily shoot Tremor 2 on my main rifles, but shoot the old mil dot and TMR almost everyday. I've shot all reticles from 25m all the way out to 2000m (with 2.5-4lb triggers). In the end the shooter matters. The equipment is not a crutch.
 
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#79
I feel some shooters here also hate the Horus reticles because they are often shooting in matches where all distances are known and they have time to dial or "game" their situation. I find more tactical mindset people who shoot on 2 way ranges prefer the H type reticles, this includes gen2xr or GAP reticle type trees, for the quick numbered references for hold offs. I know from personal experience as Graham stated that you don't need the tree sub tensions to accomplish the same engagements using hold offs but under stressful situation sometimes the numbers help. Do you need them? No but sometimes ever little bit can help. I grew up on the mildly so am accustomed to being able to do that. Some shooters grew up on the trees and find it hard to do so at first. But again back to old statement. These unwilling to learn shooters are now using the tree as a crutch. Learn both and you will find pros and cons to all reticles.

Just for every non shooters info. With a standard mil dot and standard 308 FGMM 175. @ 2650 in standard sea level TBH, you can engage targets from 0-600m with standard mildot set on a 100m zero. And with the 5 mil left or right this simple reticle will allow you to hold for close to 28 mph full value winds
 
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