Which is the best AR-10 without barrel deflection: the Geissele MRGG or the Seekins SP10M?
- Thread starter Boatscrypto
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There's nothing about the design of the MRGG that looks like it will mitigate shift due to bag vs bipod.
Geissele did recently file an interesting patent application related to lower-mounted handguards though...
Geissele did recently file an interesting patent application related to lower-mounted handguards though...
I have an LMT MWS 6.5 CM, I've noticed very very little barrel deflection regardless of where the bipod placement is, or using a bag versus bipod in general. I'm not saying it's the best AR-10 on the market, but it really excels in this area
That is interesting… Looking at it though, my inclination is that this is more of a mechanism to make the entire receiver/hand guard assembly more rigid (less wobble) vs. a way to remove the hand guard from the upper. I’d expect some type of “bridge” type scope mount to tie the upper to the hand guard will accompany this.
Of course I could be completely wrong…if they wanted it all tied together, why not just add the lower receiver tie in to a hand guard that’s already attached to the upper receiver too; maybe even a monolithic upper.
And of course tying the upper, lower, and hand guard together negates a simple two-pin take down mechanism too, so that doesn’t really make sense either. But having the hand guard attached to the lower would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the upper receiver/barrel assembly anyway…maybe there’s enough clearance to release the pins, rotate the upper, and the slide it out?
Edit: And how would you pull the BCG for a quick field strip/cleaning without first removing the hand guard?
So yeah, interesting… The more I look at this, the more questions I have! LoL
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KAC or nothing for me. Seekins makes nice stuff. So does G$ but they aren’t and never will be KAC. KAC just has too much lead on everyone via R&D. It’s shame they cost so much on the grey market and and it’s a shame that KAC can’t release more to the commercial market but I also understand military contacts and their obligations. Is what it is.
URX6 14.5 6.5CM is the GOAT currently.
URX6 14.5 6.5CM is the GOAT currently.
It does seem this way. The ARCA option with Picatinny may work, but what rigidity is it adding?That is interesting… Looking at it though, my inclination is that this is more of a mechanism to make the entire receiver/hand guard assembly more rigid (less wobble) vs. a way to remove the hand guard from the upper. I’d expect some type of “bridge” type scope mount to tie the upper to the hand guard will accompany this.
Of course I could be completely wrong…if they wanted it all tied together, why not just add the lower receiver tie in to a hand guard that’s already attached to the upper receiver too; maybe even a monolithic upper.
And of course tying the upper, lower, and hand guard together negates a simple two-pin take down mechanism too, so that doesn’t really make sense either. But having the hand guard attached to the lower would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the upper receiver/barrel assembly anyway…maybe there’s enough clearance to release the pins, rotate the upper, and the slide it out?
Edit: And how would you pull the BCG for a quick field strip/cleaning without first removing the hand guard?
So yeah, interesting… The more I look at this, the more questions I have! LoL
How's the barrel forend deflection on your KAC? Have you shot a positional test with it?
Here's my Seekins SP-10M builders kit with a Mullerworks barrel in a positional test
I feel like this topic is blown way out of proportion, yes not all uppers are created equally but at the same time you need to know your rifle.
Next time you're practicing at the range with a Bipod and rear bag, shoot from the Prone, Bench, Barricade and standing with tripod.
The 4 Rifles/Uppers that reduce the least POI shift the most are as follows...IMO
(1) LMT MWS and LaRue OBR.
The LaRue OBR is going to provide the best of both worlds with it's bullet proof design and true free floating barrel design.
With the LMT you won't be able to compete with it's rigidity from it's one peace Upper/Handguard but achieving Consistent all day Sub MOA is challenging, even with custom Bartlein barrels the LMT is just a finicky bitch.
(2) JP LRI-20 and Seekins SP10
The JP and SP10 are similar in design with their integral barrel nut design but both have area's to improve on.
The SP10 really needs Heli Coil inserts in the Upper receiver for the Handguard screws and the JP could benefit from a larger ejection port, bolth rifles would benefit from some alternative handguard designs.
(3) Another rifle that has excellent rigidity and accuracy is the LaRue PredatAR's. The accuracy that the PredatAR's have with a quality Cut rifled barrel are phenomenal.
With all the builds I've done over the years the most accurate rifles have been built off of LaRue OBR, PredatAR (Small and Large frame) and Seekins SP10 build kits.
I ALWAYS buy them just to have a few on hand for precision builds.
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But how do you "know you're rifle"? It doesn't come from bench shooting.
One of the most important qualities of a skilled long range shooter is the ability to shoot your same zero from as many fucked up positions as possible. I've recently been on a kick training for PRS matches by shooting from various props on a ProTimer. I start off shooting a prone zero with a gun. Then a 5rd zero from a prop without time pressure. Then another 5rd group, all fired as single shots from ready in a ProTimer with the goal of shooting the same .3-.5" group in the same POI as an aggregate of 5 rounds fired in less than 12 secs each. All at 100yds in paper. And this is with a bolt gun. We all know large frame gas guns are harder to shoot more accurately and I would argue maintaining a zero is also more of a challenge with these guns. So intermixing mechanical inconsistencies in this problem is not helpful. Competitive shooting has skyrocketed since I started in 2007. The bar has been consistently raised and it must be an absolute bitch to get started today compared to 2007. The top 10% are constantly searching for the extra 1% to gain a competitive advantage. If the concept is that you're adjusting your data by .2 or .3 dependant on what position you're shooting in a given stage...fuck that. That is a dodo bird technique. Having the confidence in yourself and your rifle holding precision and accuracy is step #1 to evolving and correcting to center from one target to the next using single shots. You need that confidence and irrefutable proof from preparation.
I'd recommend a shooter that fancys himself some sort of guru get out and truly challenge himself and his rifle using metrics. Which is basically what competition is.
One of the most important qualities of a skilled long range shooter is the ability to shoot your same zero from as many fucked up positions as possible. I've recently been on a kick training for PRS matches by shooting from various props on a ProTimer. I start off shooting a prone zero with a gun. Then a 5rd zero from a prop without time pressure. Then another 5rd group, all fired as single shots from ready in a ProTimer with the goal of shooting the same .3-.5" group in the same POI as an aggregate of 5 rounds fired in less than 12 secs each. All at 100yds in paper. And this is with a bolt gun. We all know large frame gas guns are harder to shoot more accurately and I would argue maintaining a zero is also more of a challenge with these guns. So intermixing mechanical inconsistencies in this problem is not helpful. Competitive shooting has skyrocketed since I started in 2007. The bar has been consistently raised and it must be an absolute bitch to get started today compared to 2007. The top 10% are constantly searching for the extra 1% to gain a competitive advantage. If the concept is that you're adjusting your data by .2 or .3 dependant on what position you're shooting in a given stage...fuck that. That is a dodo bird technique. Having the confidence in yourself and your rifle holding precision and accuracy is step #1 to evolving and correcting to center from one target to the next using single shots. You need that confidence and irrefutable proof from preparation.
I'd recommend a shooter that fancys himself some sort of guru get out and truly challenge himself and his rifle using metrics. Which is basically what competition is.
And the douchiest Fast and Furious quote goes to...yep a KAC Fanboy.
Bro it’s meant to be sarcasm. I can’t shoot nearly as good as that guy. 
take it easy.
take it easy.And you know what else? I resent being called a fanboy. What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex. They never shoot them. “Oh hey look what I have that you can’t get” when man if I had the one I want (M110K7) almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it. Cause life isn’t a competition. Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give. But being altruistic doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that one company’s products are slightly superior to the rest. I just wish it wasn’t also a damn collectors item.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
And you know what else? I resent being called a fanboy. What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex. They never shoot them. “Oh hey look what I have that you can’t get” when man if I had the one I want (M110K7) almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it. Cause life isn’t a competition. Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give. But being altruistic doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that one company’s products are slightly superior to the rest. I just wish it wasn’t also a damn collectors item.
This video talks about the M110K7 and has some positional stuff as well as deflection since that was the topic of this thread before I got in an internet fight about internet fights.
Fucking weak....
Let me try again. See how this treats you...
Best reply ever
How do things work in your head? Because this is what the rest of us are thinking
"I resent being called a fanboy." You act like a fanboy
"What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex." And here you're flexing on the Internet
"They never shoot them.“ And you're afraid to show us proof that you do
".. almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it." Except the people you're bragging to on the Internet
"Cause life isn’t a competition." Then act like it
"Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give." So why are being an ass?
Here's the irony in our positions. I've shot SR25's for years as the population that KAC intended them for. And I don't covet them. Instead of being a YouTube subscriber, go create your own experience. When you speak, speak from your own lived experience and demonstrate expertise. If you don't have these things, just don't speak.
"American flag emoji, eagle emoji, bicep emoji!!!!!"
Probably won’t see as much deflection on a shorter barrel/rail setup like the K7. The URX6 is a solid rail, but the castle nut that secures the rail to the barrel/upper suggests that you’ll still get a little bit of positional shift depending on how you apply pressure to the rail since it’s not a true free-float design.
A buddy has the 22” variant, and I saw about a .2 mil shift in elevation when I shot from the prone while loading the bipod vs. having the bipod neutrally loaded while pulling the gun rearward slightly. We saw the same .2 mil shift going from prone/bipod to standing/bagged.
A buddy has the 22” variant, and I saw about a .2 mil shift in elevation when I shot from the prone while loading the bipod vs. having the bipod neutrally loaded while pulling the gun rearward slightly. We saw the same .2 mil shift going from prone/bipod to standing/bagged.
Let me try again. See how this treats you...
How do things work in your head? Because this is what the rest of us are thinking
"I resent being called a fanboy." You act like a fanboy
"What’s killing me is these guys that buy them as an internet flex." And here you're flexing on the Internet
"They never shoot them.“ And you're afraid to show us proof that you do
".. almost nobody would know unless they saw me out shooting it." Except the people you're bragging to on the Internet
"Cause life isn’t a competition." Then act like it
"Life is about generosity and gratitude. You get what you give." So why are being an ass?
Here's the irony in our positions. I've shot SR25's for years as the population that KAC intended them for. And I don't covet them. Instead of being a YouTube subscriber, go create your own experience. When you speak, speak from your own lived experience and demonstrate expertise. If you don't have these things, just don't speak.
"American flag emoji, eagle emoji, bicep emoji!!!!!"
Bro that was really mean. Has anyone seen him since this post? Someone call a health check on him.
Bro that was really mean. Has anyone seen him since this post? Someone call a health check on him.
"Hey Dipshit....you okay?"
Heya can I ask why this is helpful? I kind of know ARs but Heli Coil is unfamiliar to me as are handguard screws.
The SP10 handguard steel screws thread directly into the aluminum upper, the aluminum threads just dont hold up well and are easily stripped.
Helicoils are threaded steel Incerts that can withstand repetitive use and higher torque values.
I guess you missed this part? ^^ But thank you for reiterating my point in a extremely detailed fashion.
My replies are in bold inside the quote. ^
Edit to add: please make sure to expand the quote so you can see all of it. And yo, you edited your post where you were calling out BigJake83 (shout out to a Golden Shellback) for editing his post but then you edited yours once you realized that he edited it to include info about the heli things. If you weren’t so busy approaching everything from an argumentative standpoint and looking for reasons to be an ass on the Internet then maybe you’d notice that his post was quoted so you’d be able to compare any edits before reacting. I should have quoted it before you could change it haha. Too late. But I did think it was entertaining.
To the guy who said someone should check on me… hey man I appreciate you. But you don’t need to worry about me. My feelings don’t get hurt by this guy. I wasn’t going to respond to him but then I saw the alert that you posted and well I’ve got a few minutes here so why not.
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I think I'll just pass on reading it all together. At this point I'm pretty sure none of has anything to do with the topic of the thread
Even just skimming it while taking a shit at work on company time....I regret the 30 sec I took out of my life for it.
Does seem to masterfully check all the boxes of a horseshit internet hissy fit.
- meet up/throw down challenge
- micro disecting your old shit
- clapping back hard AND playing the victim
- long-winded, nonsensical rant sharing TMI
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I read this earlier on phone, but waited until I had keyboard to respond...
The whole POI shift thing seems strange to me. The barrel, chamber, etc. are attached to the upper with a good solid nut. The potential for the barrel to 'move' in its socket when properly locked down by the barrel nut seems to be pretty minimal, defects or improper assembly notwithstanding.
The handguard is also anchored to the upper but is much less robust than the barrel both in anchor and because it is a pretty thin-walled tube and not as tightly anchored to the upper as the barrel. The bipod is anchored to the handguard, not the barrel. So I can see the handguard having the potential to deflect or change POI between tripod, bag and bipod.
But these methods of supporting the handguard should not change the internal ballistics of the barrel. The pressure on handguard or bipod should not 'deflect' the front of the upper casting enough to move the barrel.
That said, I can certainly see that a scope that is anchored to a long rail and has its front mounts on the handguard could 'shift.' But this is not an internal ballistics change (as could be caused by a wood stock, for example, making contact with a barrel and swelling/shrinking, thus physically moving the barrel in relation to its chamber.
However, if the scope is not solely anchored to the upper, or the rail on the handguard extends back over the frame... etc. then I can certainly see a potantial for a POI change caused by the scope moving in relation to the barrel.
Maybe I am missing something. And I only have one AR-10 custom built around an LWRC upper and lower. I used cammed pins to really lock upper and lower together... but it makes takedown a whole different matter vs. just pushing pins out. That said, while it shoots well (about 1MOA at 100) I've not noticed POI shifts with bipod vs rest (not used tripod). But I don't shoot that gun like I shoot my bolt guns. I built it as an exercise and used the best of what was available c. 2010. When it shot 'ok' but nowhere near my TRG and other bolt guns, it got relegated to fun plinker, but not a full-up precision rifle.
I'd be interested in a deeper dive into POI shifts on AR-10's. But I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how the pressure exerted on a handguard can affect the barrel... only, possibly, the relationship between the barrel internal ballistics and the scope reticle. And to me, that's a scope-mounting issue, not a ballistics issue.
Interesting thread... I'll be following. Heck maybe I can learn something to get my AR-10 to shoot incrementally-better!
Cheers,
Sirhr
The whole POI shift thing seems strange to me. The barrel, chamber, etc. are attached to the upper with a good solid nut. The potential for the barrel to 'move' in its socket when properly locked down by the barrel nut seems to be pretty minimal, defects or improper assembly notwithstanding.
The handguard is also anchored to the upper but is much less robust than the barrel both in anchor and because it is a pretty thin-walled tube and not as tightly anchored to the upper as the barrel. The bipod is anchored to the handguard, not the barrel. So I can see the handguard having the potential to deflect or change POI between tripod, bag and bipod.
But these methods of supporting the handguard should not change the internal ballistics of the barrel. The pressure on handguard or bipod should not 'deflect' the front of the upper casting enough to move the barrel.
That said, I can certainly see that a scope that is anchored to a long rail and has its front mounts on the handguard could 'shift.' But this is not an internal ballistics change (as could be caused by a wood stock, for example, making contact with a barrel and swelling/shrinking, thus physically moving the barrel in relation to its chamber.
However, if the scope is not solely anchored to the upper, or the rail on the handguard extends back over the frame... etc. then I can certainly see a potantial for a POI change caused by the scope moving in relation to the barrel.
Maybe I am missing something. And I only have one AR-10 custom built around an LWRC upper and lower. I used cammed pins to really lock upper and lower together... but it makes takedown a whole different matter vs. just pushing pins out. That said, while it shoots well (about 1MOA at 100) I've not noticed POI shifts with bipod vs rest (not used tripod). But I don't shoot that gun like I shoot my bolt guns. I built it as an exercise and used the best of what was available c. 2010. When it shot 'ok' but nowhere near my TRG and other bolt guns, it got relegated to fun plinker, but not a full-up precision rifle.
I'd be interested in a deeper dive into POI shifts on AR-10's. But I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how the pressure exerted on a handguard can affect the barrel... only, possibly, the relationship between the barrel internal ballistics and the scope reticle. And to me, that's a scope-mounting issue, not a ballistics issue.
Interesting thread... I'll be following. Heck maybe I can learn something to get my AR-10 to shoot incrementally-better!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Que ?
Looks like lwrc doesn’t even make a non “enhanced” upper. Which would be why you aren’t having shift.
I’m getting .2 shift with an rd15 build.
But. I see that same shift with a Ai ATX. So software not hardware issue
The short and simple answer is Leverage, just the same as using a pry bar.
Yes the barrel is secured into the upper with the barrel nut that holds the barrel extension secured and torqued to the face of the upper receiver threads so now the Barrel Nut and Upper Receiver are ONE.
Now you attach the handguard (PRYBAR) to the outer surface area of the barrel nut and upper, the end of the Handguard where we all attach our mounting attachments for bipod and various other attachments is now the handle of the prybar and now any load/torque applied is now highly amplified by leverage and transferred straight back to the barrel nut and your upper.
Obviously other factors such as handguard length and upper receiver design all come in to effect and can strengthen and reduce the POI shift effect when torque is transferred.
A good example of two Conventional Style Upper Receiver and handguard mounting designs that are easy to conduct a simple side by side POI shift comparison are the Geissele Upper handguard Combo with thier Mil Spec Forged Uppers and the SOLGW Broadsword.
They both attached directly to the Barrel nut but the SOLGW design has a thick walled Upper with tongue and groove style inserts at each corner of the handguard that are press fit firmly into their Milled slots of the upper receiver along with a thick barrel nut which I believe is also longer.
With the SOLGW design the torque that is transferred is equally divided between the barrel nut and the Upper Upper
Receiver where with with the Geissele it's all transferred straight to the barrel nut.
True Free Floating Designs and semi monolithic upper receivers do a fantastic job reducing or removing any and all POI Shift no matter how much load is applied to the end of the handguard.
If this doesn't help you understand then I would suggest you try conducting your own field POI Shift test (Constructivist learning theory )and see for yourself, theoretical speculation will only get you so far no matter how sound your reasoning may seem.
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We're on the same page... when I think of POI shift, I am thinking of something deflecting barrel, changing velocity, etc. etc. And what you are describing is deflecting the barrel by putting pressure on the barrel nut area of the upper. Makes total sense.
Though it does surprise me that there is enough flexibility in an AR-10 upper that pressure on the handguard can 'bend' or flex the upper enough to cause a POI shift. Then again, it doesn't take more than a couple of thousandths of movement to have a significant effect downrange. And light alloys are... light alloys for a reason!
I'll have to bring my AR-10 out to the range next time and see what happens if I 'load' the barrel nut area with predictable/known weights. it'll be a fun experiment to see how much actual deflection there is. And I am sure it will vary by upper-maker, alloy, material, etc.
Interesting thread...
Sirhr
