Yesterday was my first Precision Rifle match. (Out West Precision Rifle Match in Midland Tx) I had a BALL!!! But...the wind was really hard to call...for me. Everyone else on my squad had a Kestrel and used it just before they shot. I know gear is no substitute for practice, but I think a Kestrel would help me learn for sure. So my question is, which one? I saw several models out there at all kinds of price points. Which one has the necessary functions at a reasonable price?
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Which Kestrel?
- Thread starter Ziatriguy
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Lots of choices. Do you want one with the ballistics built in or just a weather meter?
Well I would suggest one that has LINK. The non AB 5700 series. In a future update, the kestrel will feeed environmental straight into AB Mobile.
http://www.nkhome.com/kestrel-products/weather/kestrel-5500-weather-meter
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You could probably pick up a used 4500NV for less than $200 or you could get the 5500 for around $280. You can also pick up a Weatherflow Windmeter for $40, if you just want to be able to get an accurate wind reading. But you should invest in at least a Kestrel 5500 so you can keep an accurate account of atmospherics for all your data.
Just a tip if you want to get to read mirage better, have someone go down range with a kestrel and a smoke grenade (pick one up from US Tactical Supply for about $12), start reading the mirage, have him pop the smoke, and give you constant updates on the wind velocity and direction over the phone, while the smoke is burning. Dont necessarily need the smoke, but it will help you visualize exactly what the wind is doing.
Just a tip if you want to get to read mirage better, have someone go down range with a kestrel and a smoke grenade (pick one up from US Tactical Supply for about $12), start reading the mirage, have him pop the smoke, and give you constant updates on the wind velocity and direction over the phone, while the smoke is burning. Dont necessarily need the smoke, but it will help you visualize exactly what the wind is doing.
5500 with link would be about as low as I go on the totem pole and probably most of the important functionality one needs since we're out here running around with ballistics on our phones. I do have the ballistic version with link, but I found it for not much more than a 5500 so it was value added.
You don't get Density Altitude or Station Pressure until you step up to the 5000 series.
I was wondering about that because the Kestrel site makes it look like the 3500 has everything the 5000 series has except the ability to log accumulated data. I thought that with altitude and barometric pressure that I would have the inputs needed for ballistic software.
You don't need density altitude and you don't need station pressure. most ballistic solvers have the option of using corrected pressure or absolute pressure. Density altitude can be calculated from either in any ballistic solver.
However, it is far easier to understand whats really going on if you use absolute pressure and have the ability to see what your actual density altitude is. But if had to choose between these, I could live without DA. but for me station (or absolute pressure) is mandatory. for 300 bucks for the 5500, its really a worthwhile investment.
Minor note to add. A lot of modern phones (i.e. iPhone 6 and up) have baro pressure sensors already built in. All you need to access is download the free Barometer app from the Apple App Store.
Temperature can usually be guessed within a few degrees using available tools and user experience.
Wind is the real bitch! Here is where experience counts and use of a wind velocity indicator becomes a necessity for novice shooters to learn basic wind reading skills by measuring wind speed and then observing its effects on the surrounding environment. Useful tool for experienced shooters as well!
Just saying it is nice to have a Kestrel but there are other ways around it too.
Temperature can usually be guessed within a few degrees using available tools and user experience.
Wind is the real bitch! Here is where experience counts and use of a wind velocity indicator becomes a necessity for novice shooters to learn basic wind reading skills by measuring wind speed and then observing its effects on the surrounding environment. Useful tool for experienced shooters as well!
Just saying it is nice to have a Kestrel but there are other ways around it too.
Sounds good. I'm not sure how much I want to spend on a Kestrel versus other useful equipment. I've also heard the altitude function is not very accurate but you can always use a topo map for that. I've seen people estimate temperature pretty well but I'm not sure how well I can estimate humidity (RH).
Humidity means nothing. Honestly you can ignore it. As far as the altitude, mine is very accurate as long as you don't heat soak it. Don't leave it baking in the sun.
Just to clarify, it's not that it isn't a factor, but it's not enough where it's a huge issue. I set mine at 50% in AB and never ch age. Cuts any error in half
If you want to see effects of humidity throw some numbers into any ballistic program (JBM online is easy) for your favorite round and generate a table with the humidity set to 0% and another at 100%. You will be surprised at how small of an effect it has on bullet flight.
Relative humidity guesstimate is not hard, and even if you are off by 30 points it won't make much difference. Setting value to 50-60% and leaving it there is good enough!
Sort of like leaving the atmosphere set to standard at 100 yards because it won't be discernibly different at a range of temps and altitudes.
Relative humidity guesstimate is not hard, and even if you are off by 30 points it won't make much difference. Setting value to 50-60% and leaving it there is good enough!
Sort of like leaving the atmosphere set to standard at 100 yards because it won't be discernibly different at a range of temps and altitudes.
I'm curious because I'm not tracking what you are saying here. The only thing the bullet really knows is DA. So if you can have that calculated by your meter, why would you choose station pressure ("mandatory") over DA ("could live without it"), when the only point of having the station pressure is to use it to calculate the DA?
What is DA? Standard pressure corrected for non standard temp right? It doesn't matter how you do it. Yes my elite will give me the actual DA. But for me that's gee whiz. When I use a ballistic calculator my input is pressure temp and if I'm really being anal I'll use the actual humidity (see above, I usually use 50 for everything). That's DA. For for my quick reference cards I have them in in increments of .50inHg with 0-100f in 10 degree increments. That's DA my friend. 28.92 at 70 degrees is a specific DA. Does it really matter what the DA is? Nope. No it does not. I just find the chart closest to 28.92 go down the column at 70 and get my correction for whatever range. I could make the charts by DA instead but why? If my kestrel dies I have my watch for pressure and temp. The charts still work.
This depends on what your plans for shooting are. If you are only shooting in the LR field, then humidity is a non factor. When you get in to ELR shooting, it actually begins to make a difference. At 2 miles, even with our hot rods, you are looking at about 1 click every 20% change in humidity give or take a little. It is also important to note, that using the ballistics on the Kestrel acts as a sanity check. What I mean by that is, we always double check our firing solutions when shooting past 1 mile. This way we can make certain we didn't fat finger or forget anything. If they agree to a 1/10th or so an MOA than we know we input everything correctly. If you like having that ability then I would get the 5700 Elite.
If you simply plan to use your phone for LR work, then the 5500 with LiNK is going to be your best choice.
If you simply plan to use your phone for LR work, then the 5500 with LiNK is going to be your best choice.
Doc, what do you mean when you say you "double check" your firing solutions? I mean double check against what?. When you say you use your ballistics on the Kestral as a sanity check, a sanity check against what? Are you using a ballistics solution from another source and then comparing the two?
not at all. all I was originally saying is people say you have to have this or that. all I said is you don't need DA. is it nice to have? Yes, but it is not needed.
I use Applied Ballistics, in the kestrel, mobile and desktop. the mobile version allows inputs using straight DA or using its core components (temp, pressure, RH). the desktop only allows the core inputs. The kestrel likely uses the core components as well. so if I am actually using a ballistic calculator (which honestly I only do about 50% of the time as I prefer to work off my data cards unless im trying to hit something really small a long ways off and the razors edge of accuracy and precision is required) I try to keep it consistent. so I use mobile the same way as the desktop and my cards are set the same way. my kestrel gives me the DA, yes. and its nice to know the altitude my bullet thinks its flying at. but It is not mandatory, it is not needed which was the crux of my comment.
I try not to speak in absolutes, there are a hundred ways to skin this cat. many say DA is a must. I disagree, I say its nice to have but not mandatory.
Also, I didn't build the system around my backup, it kind of just accidentally worked out that way as I progressed through my setup.
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I did run ballistics at numerous RH values and was surprised at how little it mattered. I should have run various temperature and pressure numbers (which amounts to variable DA) to get a real handle on the corrections. This all started with which model Kestrel gives the necessary info to get the job done without unnecessary cost. I still think the 3500 is adequate if you are using range cards for data and a Kestrel for weather info to verify which range card to use. If you are calculating a ballistic solution on the fly to make the shot, then a Kestrel with built-in ballistics software seems like the best solution.
Hey Fur, I know that I cannot speak for Doc, nor know what he might be thinking, but my reading of this is exactly what you are guessing. He is using another solver for his solutions, but is also using the Kestrel to see that the two of them agree and to make sure (double check) the solution from his other solver. As I know you are already shooting out to some decent distances, I imagine you can see why that would be helpful. Especially if you are competing at ELR matches where every shot determines whether you get another shot or not.
Even DA doesn't make a huge difference. Obviously you don't want a 8000ft correction at 1000ft but if you are shooting at say 3652 DA, you could use 4000 correction and probably still hit. If you used data for the nearest thousand foot DA, you will hit any MOA target, provided you judged the wind correctly.
Yes, wind seems to be the most critical. The Kestrel will give a wind reading from the shooting position but there is no substitute for experience in judging the wind between the firing line and the target. No shortcuts that I know of here. For the weather related corrections, I'm actually thinking that an FDAC might be the best solution but right now they don't have a wheel for my 6.5 Creedmoor load. See: http://www.actsvirginia.com/products
I'm partial to slide rule devices that don't need batteries!
I'm partial to slide rule devices that don't need batteries!
https://www.accuracy1st.com/store/itemDetail.cfm?prodID=498
Try this. You can get custom calibers. These are very good field tools.
It depends on the situation, but we generally run the firing solution on two devices then compare. At the King Of 2 Miles, we ran our lab software vs the devices and the app to see how they lined up. In a quick situation, or the morning of, we would simply run say a Kestrel vs the App, and make sure they compare correctly.
I should mention, this is a pre-check deal. The morning of, to make sure the equipment is in line like expected and we have not left anything out or off by accident. Not something that is done every single shot.
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I'm still evolving in my LR game and I'm coming to see that the all-in-one kestrel has to be the lowest drag solution for known distance stuff
Initially I went with Ballistic AE. For 20 bucks or so it has a lot of functionality and spits out good data if you put good data in. That said, I don't like having to rely on what is a pretty fragile device (iphone) in the field (i.e. club matches).
Not wanting to fork out the dough for a kestrel, I made DA cards in JBM, cleaned them up in excel, and laminated them for a cost of about 3 dollars. That has worked great for drop corrections but you are limited as far as what you can put on there for wind, and when you start trying to back calculate a correction at 763 yards for a 13mph at 4:30 based on a full value 10mph, it gets a little more fiddly than I'd like. It's totally doable, but the less critical thinking you have to do on game day, the better.
Most (all) of my shooting is at a KD range, or at matches where the distances are given to you in some way. So a rugged unit that does weather, drop, and partial value wind correction all in one is on my list very soon. I think the 5700 sportsman checks the boxes for me, at a price that even I (as a cheapskate) can swallow now that I'm near three years into this thing.
I'll still make and cross-train with DA cards for backup.
YMMV
Initially I went with Ballistic AE. For 20 bucks or so it has a lot of functionality and spits out good data if you put good data in. That said, I don't like having to rely on what is a pretty fragile device (iphone) in the field (i.e. club matches).
Not wanting to fork out the dough for a kestrel, I made DA cards in JBM, cleaned them up in excel, and laminated them for a cost of about 3 dollars. That has worked great for drop corrections but you are limited as far as what you can put on there for wind, and when you start trying to back calculate a correction at 763 yards for a 13mph at 4:30 based on a full value 10mph, it gets a little more fiddly than I'd like. It's totally doable, but the less critical thinking you have to do on game day, the better.
Most (all) of my shooting is at a KD range, or at matches where the distances are given to you in some way. So a rugged unit that does weather, drop, and partial value wind correction all in one is on my list very soon. I think the 5700 sportsman checks the boxes for me, at a price that even I (as a cheapskate) can swallow now that I'm near three years into this thing.
I'll still make and cross-train with DA cards for backup.
YMMV
Hey lash, yeah it sounds like that to me too but had to ask. The thing that confounds me is I rarely if ever can get two devices to agree on a solution regardless of identical enviornmentals that are input. Shooting with friends, one may be using a Nomad, another Trasol, another the Shooter app as well as any number of other apps or devices including kestrals, and solutions can & do vary, sometimes by a significant amount if at ELR distances. Now I know this is a comman occurance and nothing new, but I have to wonder how the AB gang deal with that when their dope doesn't line up between devices, software or whatever. Do they rely on something us mere mortals would use like a kestral with their very own AB program on it, or the latest up to date "voodoo magic" custom software that Litz tweaked the day before the match lol. Guess I'll put the question to Doc.
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I think he specified he runs a kestrel compared to AB Mobile as an example. So he's comparing two instances of AB only, he's not comparing to shooter or any other app, only two different AB engines.
Doc, I'm still confused. When you say you run a Kestral vs the "App" and compare, what is the "App" you refer to? Isn't the AB app the same stuff that's on a Kestral? Is it the lab software you refer to? Is the "lab software" the latest update tweak to the AB App? Is the "lab software" something that will someday be avaiable to us mere mortals? Are the "devices" you refer to the Kestrals? Sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around all this in my quest to get better at accurately determining solutions. Also, what do you do when the "two devices" you mention don't agree? is it a coin toss or are there other factors taken into consideration?
I am not comparing to other peoples software. I would only compare AB to AB. For example:
I head out to the 2400 yard range early in the morning. I break out my Kestrel and my Garmin Foretrex, or My Kestrel and My App, or any combination there of. Just as long as I have 2 AB Solvers in my hand. I would then load up target data for say 3 targets, and compare the results. If for some reason the solutions are off, I would then try to find out why. I would look at the ballistic information for each solution, see exactly which portion of the firing solution is causing the difference and then correct the mistake that was made in the inputs. This verifies that my device is working correctly (a sensor isn't broken etc) and verifies I didn't forget something. Then once that is done, I will go to my main reference for that does practice.
Thanks "TD", you got it right. Guess I was just a little slow on the uptake on this one.
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