Fieldcraft White light on rifle?

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MPD464

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Minuteman
Oct 6, 2006
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E. Arkansas
#1
Before I get to my question I'll give you a little background that'll shed some light on why I'm asking this. I'm the Sniper for a small town police department SRT. I train to take shots from 10 yards out to 300+. These ranges fit the my urban/rural surroundings. My rifle currently has a Super Sniper 10x on it. I don't have any major issues with this glass.

My concern is night shooting. Whenever I practice night shots (typically 100 yards and in) with low ambient light I have difficulty picking up the reticle and/or the target. I realize this problem is a combination of eyesight, non-illuminated reticle, not enough light entering the scope, focus, etc. Night vision is a no-go at this point, although I am working on it. Getting the department to spring for an illuminated reticle scope is my first battle (baby steps).

Now we come to my question. What are the pros and cons of mounting a white light on the rifle? Giving my position away, negligent white light discharges, and bulk/weight are concerns I've come up with. But I think with training and proper equipment, the first two will become less of an issue. Being able to see/identify my target is the biggest pro I've come up with.

Also, what kind of mounting solutions are out there? I've looked at the STOMP from LaRue, the MARS system, and the options from Surgeon. Of those, the Surgeon system looks the least cost prohibitive.

What are your thoughts?
 
#2
Re: White light on rifle?

I would work with an observer with a white light if you need that option. Any light powerful enough to have any effect on a target to say 71 yards (The national average for police sniper enagagements) is gonna be way too cumbersome for you to prot around and activate on your own. IMHO the STOMP and MARS are POS and we only used the latter when we received the initial fielding of the UNS kit. The former (larue) is bulky and catches on everything. I would go with the current Badger mount and a PVS-27. But if you've only been funded for a super sniper scope then that is a pipe dream. However Optics Planet sells an ATN PS-22 for 1700.00. It may not be as sexy as a 27 but then again you are sporting a super sniper and in a self described barney fife town so it should do fine.
 
#3
Re: White light on rifle?

You may want to contact Dave Lauck with this, He is LE with a similar type of AO. He wrote a book with a decent amount of information about using white light on sniper rifles in precision engagments. With Surfires, I think they were engaging out to 300 yards with good precision. His company is called D&L Sports. http://www.dlsports.com/
 
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#4
Re: White light on rifle?

One trick I saw described in the now-defunct <span style="font-style: italic">Tactical Shooter</span> magazine was to place a miniature cyalume tube just ahead of and below the scope objective. This provides enough low level illumination to give the reticle some silhouetting without distorting the long distance image. Naturally, the cyalume stick also needs to be shielded from view by some sort of low baffle, etc., so it doesn't reveal the shooter to observers out in front of the rifle.

Greg
 
#5
Re: White light on rifle?

let me say im no sniper but i have heard of people say theyve placed mini cylume stick just inside the eyepiece scope covers which supposedly illuminated their crosshairs. as for target illumination id guess youd want someone else running the light show for you so yer not exposed to fire and can concentrate on fundamentals. just a guess from an old corpsman.
 
#6
Re: White light on rifle?

I have found the Larue system to work well if you need to hang NV and: 1. You can practice enough to on and off your primary weapon optic, 2. You use a protective cover when the optic is maintained on the weapon.

There are some that hang on to their ways and refuse to believe the optic can off and on for precision purposes. It'll work.

I don't know what threats you faced/are facing but a light FROM anywhere near your position is asking for great risk and trouble. You are taking the right steps it would seem, get a telescope with better light gathering capability and illum reticle. In addition to the mounts you have listed, USO once offered one that slides on to most stocks (like the M40A3), PGW makes a solid and mostly permanent mount, and the list is nearly endless these days. There is a lot of info already on this site.

It would seem to me that departments should not have to wait until it is too late to buy proper equipment for their people that they require to make such weighty decisions, and it is for this reason that I recommend that you put it in writing to the boss asking for the best equipment out there. This is not CYA. It is the right thing to do. That really bad moment only comes to the unprepared...
 
#7
Re: White light on rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">let me say im no sniper but i have heard of people say theyve placed mini cylume stick just inside the eyepiece scope covers which supposedly illuminated their crosshairs. as for target illumination id guess youd want someone else running the light show for you so yer not exposed to fire and can concentrate on fundamentals. just a guess from an old corpsman. </div></div>

This is the same concept... I have to be honest, I have not seen one in 12+ years. I know it is a crappy thing to say but I am sure the reason why they don't make these is because scopes now come with an illumination option. So it's sorta like buying a truck with a V6 and then needing a V8. You should have just got a V8 (No pun intended... but that was kinda funny how that analogy worked out)

http://www.amazon.com/Smiths-Sharpeners-Cross-Hair-Illuminator/dp/B0001WP6UQ

http://www.opticsplanet.net/docter-point-40mm-regular-lens-reticle-illuminator.html
 
#8
Re: White light on rifle?

A better option is to have OTHER units illuminate the target with vehicle lights, disaster lights, flashlights, etc.

In some other classes I have seen a light mounted on the rifle over the scope. This ends up being about where my forehead is. Not where I want a bright target indicator. I have shot in the NRA school with my partner illuminating a 50 yard target with a handheld 60 lumen Surefire. It worked well enough to ID a paper target and fire.

A good optic on lower magnification can allow enough light for sight alignment/sight picture, but what we are really worried about in LE is TARGET IDENTIFICATION. An illuminated reticle does not help with target ID. I ordered one on my new scope because it's better to have and not need, than need and not have.

I keep going back and forth on the white light issue because an LE engagement is not like a military engagement. You don't really need to be as concerned with stealth when there are lots of big white cars with flashing lights around the place. If I flip on a rifle mounted white light it is probably going to be to confirm target ID prior to pressing the trigger. There are scenarios where avoiding fire from secondary targets may be a concern, but it that instance NVD's are going to be your best option.

I would absolutely, positively be against a while light on a military sniper rifle. On a police rifle it really needs to depend on the specific mission.

If I WERE going to do it, I would look at the highest output Surefire I could hang on top of the scope. If I need to flip it on to ID a target and do not fire, I want that sucker blind while I move to a new FFP.
 
#10
Re: White light on rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A better option is to have OTHER units illuminate the target with vehicle lights, disaster lights, flashlights, etc. </div></div>

We use to use "Shadow Channeling" as an approach technique in "Permissive" environments.

I concure that this would be optimal and most likely in the LE realm as you will be on a perimeter.

However... (suppressed snicker) if you REALLY want a rifle mounted light that'll do the job.. Try this baby on for size

4jrqe1.gif


I would suggest that you follow up the initiation of it with an imidiate and final "BANG" though
 
#11
Re: White light on rifle?

We shot a night time patrol shoot a while back and out to 400 yards engaged steel targets using headlights from other vehicles . Weapon mounted lights were good to about 70 yards if you had a 120 Lumen light but like has been mentioned numerous times here it makes a hell of a target to shoot back at .
 
#12
Re: White light on rifle?

A couple of containment officers with the handheld lights will be sufficient. There are plenty of high intensity, 5-10million candle power lights on the market for relatively low prices. They can point them in the general direction and be behind hard cover and minimize their exposure.

I worked in an urban enviroment and never really had issues with insufficient light. More often than not at night there was to much hard light on a scene and it created more shadows and concealment areas than it eliminated. The handheld spot lights filled in the blanks and worked well.
 
#13
Re: White light on rifle?

LW. I forgot. There are books about lighting units in Korea bouncing searchlights off clouds to illuminate a night attack. Great Point! And yet, I want to launch a fund raiser for the guy because he deserves the best equipment money can buy...
 
#16
Re: White light on rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One trick I saw described in the now-defunct <span style="font-style: italic">Tactical Shooter</span> magazine was to place a miniature cyalume tube just ahead of and below the scope objective. This provides enough low level illumination to give the reticle some silhouetting without distorting the long distance image. Naturally, the cyalume stick also needs to be shielded from view by some sort of low baffle, etc., so it doesn't reveal the shooter to observers out in front of the rifle.

Greg </div></div>

My instructor at the LE class I went to showed us this trick. It really works. He used 100 mph tape to only allow approx 2mm of the cyalume stick to be lit, and only on the side facing the scope. He rolled the rest of the tape with his fingertips and used the tape ends to wedge it in the objective bell. He used the small cyalumes like you see for halloween and raves, maybe an inch in length.

We also used headlights/spotlight/takedowns from a patrol car for our low-light shooting once it got too dark to see (about 20 minutes after sunset). 100 yard shots were very easy to see and make out with that much light.
 
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