White oak barrel vs ?

[Pilotscrappy]

Like a lot of people right now I'm using the extra downtime to assemble a new upper for one of my ARs. Wanting to do a spr"ish" build.
Going with aero upper and 15" handguard. Basically just needing a little guidance on the barrel.

Looks like lots of folks on the hide recommend white oak armory for one of their barrels. Brownells appear to have a 18" rifle length in stock. I'm thinking that would be a solid choice.

However I'm wondering if I would be getting a better/more accurate barrel from a gunsmith like keystone. I think they use green mountain for their blanks.

I'm pretty much made up my mind on a Wylde chamber. I do reload, but I want to have the ability to grab off the shelf ammo if I need to.

So question is for my purposes (target shooting,paper steel etc) would I be able to get a more accurate barrel from a custom Smith such as keystones? Or would a barrel like white oak pretty much be the same.

 

[Gustav7]

I do not personally have any experience with White Oak barrels, but in the 10 years I've been in the AR game, I have NEVER heard a bad thing about White Oak Precision/Armament. Also, you can get different manufactured barrels from White Oak. He sells Kriegers, Bartleins, Shilen, Douglas, Criterion, etc. He also has his own line of barrels, which I believe use Wilson Blanks I think.

I'm on a service rifle forum as well...and a ton of guys on there use uppers and barrels from White Oak. I really don't think you could go wrong with one of their barrels.

My next barrel will most likely be from White Oak. I will most likely get a 20" service rifle barrel. He currently has his line of SPR barrels in stock, and he has 20" Bartleins in stock too, at least some versions.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

There's more that goes into it when going for consistent sub-MOA accuracy than just the barrel alone so it's tough to say definitively that yes Keystone will be more accurate than White Oak. I currently use the White Oak 18" SPR barrel and it's a consistent sub-MOA performer with Black Hills, IMI, and Hornady ammo of different types from 62 gr to 77 gr. If I dropped in a Keystone would it suddenly be more accurate? I dunno, my luck it would probably shoot the same. I've also used the Rainier Arms 18" Match barrel and it was great but more finicky with ammo, it was sub-MOA with Black Hills and Sig Sauer but didn't like Hornady or IMI very much.

 

[ShooterwithNoName]

I own both, a Keystone 20" Service Rifle barrel and a White Oak 18" 6.8 SPC. Both are equally accurate in my opinion. I would say that the Keystone takes an edge on the WOA. But that's probably due more to the cartridges and length difference.

I don't think you could go wrong either way. Both have been top notch for me.

 

[EXSOCAL]

Have owned a few Rainier Arms Ultramatch barrels, a Lilja, factory direct Krieger, a Craddock turned Bartlein, several BCM hammer forged and SS barrels and currently own a Craddock Bartlein and a WOA SPR barrel. These two have been the most consistent barrels as far as ammo selection and consistent and small group size. The WOA cost half what the Craddock cost and I could honestly not tell the difference in groups. The WOA is a helluva barrel. I’d buy another in a heartbeat.

 

[GMZ]

WOA is probably one of the best bangs for the buck in the precision AR world. I have their 16" SDM barrel and its very accurate, I plan on grabbing another to set aside maybe their 16" tactical. Mine loves SMKs over a max charge of XBR.

 

[Lug Nut]

I only have experience with a few match grade barrels, but I can say that my White Oak, 3 gun upper delivers consistent sub MOA with IMI 77rg. and Outback 55rg.

Ragged one hole, 10 shot groups at 100 yards are not uncommon with the Outback ammo.

Have not tried other match ammo yet.

It’s a keeper.

 

[troupe]

I have used WOA barrels for years. The Wilson blanks have been very good the WOA has turned out. My SPR 18" has always been a great deal and shot awesome. Can't say about Keystone. I have used Kriegers as well, but at 1/3 more money. Had a couple of the JP/Lilja setups also. You can't go wrong with the WOA. Great folks to deal with. Satern is also a great barrel for the money and I have started to use more of the Saterns. A few bolt gun builds with the Saterns in 6.5 Creed and they were 1/3 MOA with factory ammo.

 

[natdscott]

For Precision:

--Use a Bartlein, Krieger, Shilen SM, or similar quality blank.

--Use White Oak (John Holliger), Keystone Accuracy (John Scandale), or Compass Lake (Frank and Theresa White) to put it all together. All three shops are entirely equal in ability to turn out a truly (real, not the internet kind) accurate upper....they have all collaborated on some parts, even, and I know for a fact that John and John have shot against each other in National-level competition. Both have won a shitload, too.

....and I'd be really surprised if I found out that John or John had not won something at some point in their past with a Frank White barrel.....

Those guys, and those kinda barrels are about all that needs done for the AR to do all the precision it can do.

 

[Gustav7]

For Precision:

--Use a Bartlein, Krieger, Shilen SM, or similar quality blank.

--Use White Oak (John Holliger), Keystone Accuracy (John Scandale), or Compass Lake (Frank and Theresa White) to put it all together. All three shops are entirely equal in ability to turn out a truly (real, not the internet kind) accurate upper....they have all collaborated on some parts, even, and I know for a fact that John and John have shot against each other in National-level competition. Both have won a shitload, too.

....and I'd be really surprised if I found out that John or John had not won something at some point in their past with a Frank White barrel.....

Those guys, and those kinda barrels are about all that needs done for the AR to do all the precision it can do.

have you personally tried Franks CLE chamber? And if so are you a fan? Does it change how you reload due to the difference in throat/Leade ?

 

[mheimer_45]

have you personally tried Franks CLE chamber? And if so are you a fan? Does it change how you reload due to the difference in throat/Leade ?

I ordered a 18” Douglas from them with the CLE chamber. I took measurements and 69smks were jamming the lands at 2.20. Never got a chance to shoot that barrel. Sent it back to get threaded for the can and had them open it up to a Wylde chamber. She shoots fantasic.

 

[Gustav7]

I ordered a 18” Douglas from them with the CLE chamber. I took measurements and 69smks were jamming the lands at 2.20. Never got a chance to shoot that barrel. Sent it back to get threaded for the can and had them open it up to a Wylde chamber. She shoots fantasic.

DAMN... I didn't realize it was THAT tight of a leade. Was that a mistake or is that really how tight it is? You wouldn't even be able to fit 77's in there lol

 

[Steel head]

I used a rainier UM barrel for my SPR build.
It’s a shooter.
I have other barrels from Keystone and I’d be confident in getting one of his AR barrels.
The WO barrels are solid.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Awesome thanks for the reply guys looks like white oak has a pretty good rep. Ill be ordering something soon. Think I'm leaning to the white oak ,but ill probably give John @ keystone a call and see what kinda lead time he has on turning one out.

Brownell and white oak both say they have the 18" spr in stock ,at least for now. Due to the panick buying its proven a little more difficult to source the parts I've been looking for to assemble this upper.

Last question. I've got a tool craft bcg coming.
Would it be worth it/necessary to send the bolt to a Smith to have them headspace to the bolt?

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I would not sweat it

 

[Steel head]

Awesome thanks for the reply guys looks like white oak has a pretty good rep. Ill be ordering something soon. Think I'm leaning to the white oak ,but ill probably give John @ keystone a call and see what kinda lead time he has on turning one out.

Brownell and white oak both say they have the 18" spr in stock ,at least for now. Due to the panick buying its proven a little more difficult to source the parts I've been looking for to assemble this upper.

Last question. I've got a tool craft bcg coming.
Would it be worth it/necessary to send the bolt to a Smith to have them headspace to the bolt?

Probably not necessarily but if your have a smith do it I would

 

[mheimer_45]

I would definitely send bolt to who you buy the barrel from. And if your going spr’ish why not Douglas spr from compass lake.

I have a spr barrel from white oak and a Douglas varmint barrel from CLE. I think my compass lake will outshoot the white oak by a hair.

 

[Spicerack]

Good evening,

I did a similar build to your plan a few years ago and ended up going WOA SPR 18" with matched bolt from them for head spacing. The rest of my build was Aero parts with a G2S trigger. Shoots less than MOA with 69gr SMK over Varget consistently (multiple 6x5 proven). Shoots a touch over MOA with my bulk 62gr green tips over Ramshot TAC consistently. This gun is one of my favorites to shoot because it is SOOOOO consistent. I'm sure I could get a load worked up that's a bit better than the SMK's but it does what I need it to do. Buy with confidence: IMO it is money well spent and goes to a small business that may need some income over the next several weeks.
Semper Fidelis,
Aaron

 

[Foxtrot2November]

I have a WOA 18" SPR barrel and run a Radian BCG and it shoots perfect.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

FWIW White Oak used to have CLE do their barrel work, I reckon they dont anymore tho since the site doesnt say that anymore.
Id have to imagine more High Power matches have been won with WOA and CLE barrels than any other in the years since the AR started being used..

 

[ShooterwithNoName]

Awesome thanks for the reply guys looks like white oak has a pretty good rep. Ill be ordering something soon. Think I'm leaning to the white oak ,but ill probably give John @ keystone a call and see what kinda lead time he has on turning one out.

Brownell and white oak both say they have the 18" spr in stock ,at least for now. Due to the panick buying its proven a little more difficult to source the parts I've been looking for to assemble this upper.

Last question. I've got a tool craft bcg coming.
Would it be worth it/necessary to send the bolt to a Smith to have them headspace to the bolt?

I have assembled multiple ARs and just ran a go, no/go gauge set and called it good. On a carbine or SBR, I will check headspace and if it checks out, call it good.

That being said, I would get the headspace bolt with the barrel if you don't have gauges to check it. I recommend having headspace gauges, but it won't hurt anything to have the barrel maker verify the headspace by providing you with a headspaced bolt.

I ordered a bolt with my WOA 18" 6.8 spr barrel. I already had multiple bolt carrier groups. I just pulled the bolt out of the carrier group I had, verified it was headspaced and I keep it as a spare in the stock or pistol grip.

 

[Changed]

What I did, and would again, is a custom
a WOA with the Match barrel extension.

I have a 24” Optic Match barrel. Built on an aero enhanced upper/lower. It shots better than many bolt actions I’ve owned.

 

[WestDesertPRS]

I run a WOA SPR 18" / rifle gas / wylde chamber. Love the barrel. Its several years old now but still a champ. Consistently 1/2 - 3/4 MOA with factory 77gr ammo. Not too picky about brands...just works.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

I run a WOA SPR 18" / rifle gas / wylde chamber. Love the barrel. Its several years old now but still a champ. Consistently 1/2 - 3/4 MOA with factory 77gr ammo. Not too picky about brands...just works.

Did you go with 7 or 8 twist

 

[Gustav7]

Did you go with 7 or 8 twist

not sure what he has, but my Lothar Walther has 1:8 and stabilized 77gr TMK’s just fine, in fact they were probably the best bullets I tested. at the same time, my 1:8 can stabilize 50 grainers easily as well.

 

[natdscott]

A 1-in-8" twist rate barrel of rifle length can stabilize up to and including the 80-82 Grain non-VLD designs, at sea level.

Granted, Berger isn't making that 82 anymore, but if they were..

 

[WestDesertPRS]

Did you go with 7 or 8 twist

1:8 twist...meant to say that in the first place. I don't think I've ever shot anything lighter than 69gr through it so I can't make any claims about the lighter stuff. I'm sure that some of the custom Gucci barrels out there could outshoot this one but I'm not good enough to get the benefit. My eyes are in their 40s and I drink too much coffee ?

 

[RonA]

Craddock is my go to for barrels.

 

[Gustav7]

Craddock is my go to for barrels.

I guess I just don't understand how the Craddock Precision SPR barrels (rock creek) Is worth almost double the money.... Theres no way it shoots that much better than a WOA.

I have no doubt they're nice barrels but damn

 

[WestDesertPRS]

I guess I just don't understand how the Craddock Precision SPR barrels (rock creek) Is worth almost double the money.... Theres no way it shoots that much better than a WOA.

I have no doubt they're nice barrels but damn

Same reason a Ferrari costs 4x as much as a Mustang Shelby GT350R (which likely outperforms it). At the end of the day, one is a Ford and one is a Ferrari. Personally, I'll take the Ford any day and and save the $$$.

 

[natdscott]

I guess I just don't understand how the Craddock Precision SPR barrels (rock creek) Is worth almost double the money.... Theres no way it shoots that much better than a WOA.

They aren't. They won't.

I say that entirely straight-faced, because I am nearly 100% certain that the barrels that can come out of Wisconsin-via-White Oak, etc. are at, or extremely close to, the accuracy potential of the AR design.

I've shot enough teen through 2's and 3's groups to know what IS possible...and I kinda strongly doubt that the receivers and bolts themselves can direct bullets consistently into the Zeroes. That is about what a Craddock, JP, Larue,...or whatever would have to do to convince me otherwise.

 

[natdscott]

Same reason a Ferrari costs 4x as much as a Mustang Shelby GT350R (which likely outperforms it). At the end of the day, one is a Ford and one is a Ferrari. Personally, I'll take the Ford any day and and save the $$$.

Yeah, but it isn't.

Ferrari is not only in a more rarified name bracket than is FMC, they have historically been in an entirely different PERFORMANCE bracket.

The same cannot be said of higher-name-tier AR barrel shops vs somebody like Holliger. It just isn't the case.

 

[Gustav7]

Same reason a Ferrari costs 4x as much as a Mustang Shelby GT350R (which likely outperforms it). At the end of the day, one is a Ford and one is a Ferrari. Personally, I'll take the Ford any day and and save the $$$.

I definitely understand your analogy, except at least a Ferrari has the obvious aesthetic difference, and 100's of features on both the interior and exterior, etc.

Far less things to compare between two barrels: finish, asthetics, and performance.

Now If i was getting a barrel made with a custom throat and made to my specs for a peformance bolt gun, I could see paying more...but these are AR barrels.

They aren't. They won't.
I say that entirely straight-faced, because I am nearly 100% certain that the barrels that can come out of Wisconsin-via-White Oak, etc. are at, or extremely close to, the accuracy potential of the AR design.

Exactly! I just don't see how any barrel could definitively be more accurate across the objective spectrum of barrels made by either company.

 

[natdscott]

Now If i was getting a barrel made with a custom throat and made to my specs for a peformance bolt gun, I could see paying more...but these are AR barrels.

Don't tell that to my 1,000 yard barrel... the blank was over $400 BEFORE it went to Scandale @ Keystone Accuracy for chambering.

It is NOT a truth that expense on an AR barrel is worthless. They can do 1/4 minute if a guy wants to chase it far enough down the rabbit hole.

 

[RonA]

This is why Ballistic Advantage and ER Shaw sell a lot of barrels. Chicks dig them(baby chicks that is. Cheep, cheep).

 

[Gustav7]

Don't tell that to my 1,000 yard barrel... the blank was over $400 BEFORE it went to Scandale @ Keystone Accuracy for chambering.
It is NOT a truth that expense on an AR barrel is worthless. They can do 1/4 minute if a guy wants to chase it far enough down the rabbit hole.

I understand that, and expense is highly linked to value, which is subjective.

I'd love to see this barrel from WOA go head to head against that $700+ 1000yd barrel: WOA Match Barrel

 

[natdscott]

I'd love to see this barrel from WOA go head to head against that $700+ 1000yd barrel: WOA Match Barrel

Are you suggesting that you think that barrel will do the job at 1,000? It won't. hehehe... been there, earned a Badge and a Tab with one of Holliger's 7.7 Krieger barrels.

I won a 1,000 pt 200/300/600/1,000 Agg with it once, but that same Krieger/WOA barely made 1,000, and that was pushing Swampy's 80 hard enough to blow Winchester pockets on the first firing. 10%+ loss....


..and that warn't no Wilson.

 

[Gustav7]

Are you suggesting that you think that barrel will do the job at 1,000? It won't. hehehe... been there, earned a Badge with one of Holliger's barrels.

No, contrary to popular belief, not everyone on this forum thinks they're always right and is super defensive lol.

I was more so asking... out of curiosity. So what is, in your opinion, the difference between something like John's match barrel and the 1000yd barrel you have? that increases performance at the ragged edge of what an AR is capable of? Obviously we're no longer talking about 18" SPR barrels lol.

 

[natdscott]

No, contrary to popular belief, not everyone on this forum thinks they're always right and is super defensive lol.

I was more so asking... out of curiosity. So what is, in your opinion, the difference between something like John's match barrel and the 1000yd barrel you have? that increases performance at the ragged edge of what an AR is capable of? Obviously we're no longer talking about 18" SPR barrels lol.

It's pretty hard to judge tone over a keyboard.

The difference is one of spin speed. Wilson doesn't make a 6.5" twist 0.224 blank (as far as I am aware). If they did, then maybe they'd have a tube for Long Range.

To do "well" with a .223 AR at 1,000 ("well" being defined as consistently able to shoot 90-95% on a 2 MOA target), you need to run heavy bullets fast. HEAVY "heavies"... not 80 grain anything.

Granted, that barrel has 6" more length than mine, but that isn't NEARLY enough to make up for the ~1.4" difference in twist rate, and the bullet sacrifices that must be made accordingly.

The best thing to do is quit shooting your .223 AR at about 800 yards, and go get a bolt gun. Or earlier.

 

[Gustav7]

The best thing to do is quit shooting your .223 AR at about 800 yards, and go get a bolt gun. Or earlier.

Lol, ya I can understand that. The twist makes sense, just didn't know if there was something different about the physical barrel, I.e. how it was made, steel type, chamber job, etc. The rifling difference I understand.

Thanks for clarification

 

[bunsen27]

I snagged a WOA 18" 1 in 7" SPR w/rifle length gas in late 2018 from Brownell's for $200 plus NC State Sales Theft when it was on sale and used a discount code. The barrel shoots 77gr amazingly well! For the $$$ I stole that barrel.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

One more question for guys with the white oak barrel.
I'm thinking of just using a regular low pro gas block such as aero or brownells. I'm not planning on running suppressed so don't think I need an adjustable.
Would a standard lowpro block from any of the usual brands be suffice?
How many are running a non adjustable gas block with their 18" rifle length gas system?

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I didn't see the need to run an adjustable GB. I'm running an Aero Precisioni low pro and Yankee Hill low pro on my two WOA barrels and they're functioning great, spitting brass back to about 3:30 or so, and running like a top.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

It's pretty hard to judge tone over a keyboard.

The difference is one of spin speed. Wilson doesn't make a 6.5" twist 0.224 blank (as far as I am aware). If they did, then maybe they'd have a tube for Long Range.

To do "well" with a .223 AR at 1,000 ("well" being defined as consistently able to shoot 90-95% on a 2 MOA target), you need to run heavy bullets fast. HEAVY "heavies"... not 80 grain anything.

Granted, that barrel has 6" more length than mine, but that isn't NEARLY enough to make up for the ~1.4" difference in twist rate, and the bullet sacrifices that must be made accordingly.

The best thing to do is quit shooting your .223 AR at about 800 yards, and go get a bolt gun. Or earlier.

Details on your 1000yd rifle?

 

[natdscott]

Details on your 1000yd rifle?

20” A2 Service Rifle. It then became an A4 for the 2018 season because despite adequate ability to aim and hold at 1,000, it was shockingly undeniable how badly I got kicked in the balls as far as time on the sights by Army shooters with Nightforces. Time is EVERYTHING at 1,000 when your gun is 1 MOA/mph.

Bartlein 8-6.5” progressive left twist 5R Chromemoly 0.2240x0.2190, chambered by John Scandale at .2240 x 105 freebore..which is now about 160 freebore. 1” under the A2 guards, 0.750” from the block on forward, No threads, no flash hider, no finish. WOA Competition 20TPI extension.

Setup for 90’s only. Sure shoots mag 77’s like ahouse afire though.

 

[WestDesertPRS]

One more question for guys with the white oak barrel.
I'm thinking of just using a regular low pro gas block such as aero or brownells. I'm not planning on running suppressed so don't think I need an adjustable.
Would a standard lowpro block from any of the usual brands be suffice?
How many are running a non adjustable gas block with their 18" rifle length gas system?

I run a standard gas block on mine. I had it drilled / taper-pinned so the set screws are just barely snugged and loctited and the pin is actually retaining the block. Never had a single problem with it running any ammo i've tried. I also run an A5 buffer system on the lower so the combo of A5 and rifle gas makes a really soft shooting rifle.

 

[Foxtrot2November]

I'm running a geissele gas block that came with the mk8 rail and runs fine

 

[Gustav7]

I'm running an SLR rifleworks adjustable gas block, but I run a Surefire SOCOM II on mine at all times. 18" barrle, rifle gas system. When I was running 24.5gr of TAC with 77's, it definitely came in handy, and decreased gas and felt recoil significantly.

But again, that was suppressed

 

[opeagle]

I’ve never used adjustable gas blocks on my 18in WOA barrels. They run fine with or without a suppressor.

 

[GMZ]

One more question for guys with the white oak barrel.
I'm thinking of just using a regular low pro gas block such as aero or brownells. I'm not planning on running suppressed so don't think I need an adjustable.
Would a standard lowpro block from any of the usual brands be suffice?
How many are running a non adjustable gas block with their 18" rifle length gas system?

I got my gas block from WOA when I got the barrel at their recommendation. Nice block, very snug fit.