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From your rifle that "is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards."?
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We all enjoy your post but I can't recall you doing a review on a custom Bartlein or Krieger from Compass Lake, Craddock or a Proof Research SS barrel. Any plans on doing any of those mentioned?
Never used one for myself, I've built uppers for people using them from Compass Lake and they have all been satisfied so I guess they shoot.
For about 10 years now I've shot nothing but Bartlein or Krieger, mostly 4 groove Bartlein and have only had two barrels that had to go back one from CLE and one from Craddock.
Since most quality off the shelf barrels are running between $375-$450 the Proof Research SS barrels are my "easy button" barrel of choice.
After that it's a wash between JP, Rainer ultra match, CLE Centurion and White Oak.
I won't use Rainier any longer so that's a scratch (although the accuracy was good). Hard to go wrong with Bartlein or Krieger but those CA barrels are shooters
you know the old addage, build more and get one with each! ha
I haven't seen anyone mention Odin Barrels? Are they good, how do they compare? Do they make their own barrels?
I had an odin works 6.5 grendel barrel. Shot about 4MOA at 100 yards. With 3 different kinds of ammo. Called them and they misspoke and said they'd return it. Ended up going back and forth with them, because usually no one in the industry returns barrels, they usually exchange them. But they kept thier word and gave me my money back Haha.
So you weren’t happy with the accuracy of your faxon barrel, and your solution for that was . . . to buy another faxon barrel.
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How about you fuck off then and pay your dues, and don't use this website to promote your items. You're a scumbag. Also, didn't like how this faxon shoots...think I'll buy another one.
FNG's...So you weren’t happy with the accuracy of your faxon barrel, and your solution for that was . . . to buy another faxon barrel.
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I paid to support the website, not just post ads. This site is a lot more than just a forum. Like I said...Scumbag. wouldn't expect any different. You come on saying you don't like how a product shoots, and then buy the same product. Stupid is as stupid does.
also, no worries I reported the listing you put in here. That's right. Call me whatever you want, but that shit shouldn't happen. You come on here asking for advice, and then direct people away from the very place you sought advice from, for your own gain? Nope.
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I paid to support the website, not just post ads. This site is a lot more than just a forum. Like I said...Scumbag. wouldn't expect any different. You come on saying you don't like how a product shoots, and then buy the same product. Stupid is as stupid does.
sir yes sir
I have never shot a Faxon but have two 20 inch white oak barrels they are both shooters. Reason for the second one was for a Otter Creek labs suppressor. PPU shot around an inch, CBC mk262 clone was about the same, IMI I did not care for for accuracy but it is loaded hot it was great on steel at 600. My handloads I hover around 3/4 to 1 moa. The occasional half MOA for 5 round groups, but once I developed my load I mainly shoot steel. Did testing for POA shift with and without suppressor I am gonna do a write up soon on that I will post
How about Proof? I just picked up a SS one and installed it last night. Going to try and shoot it today if I feel any better. Anyone have any opinions of these?
I have only one and I’ll be buying more if this one is what most are like from them. It’s on a Mega Set in 5.56.
OP, I have not owned one but out of those I would say WOA. Out of all the research I have done I have seen anything negative on his barrels. Few they shoot ok, mostly they are tack drivers.
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FWIW, my white oak SPR shoots like a much better deal for the money than my proof SS, which cost almost double.
At some point, a few brands of really good barrels are all within the top percentile, and the $50-$100 price differences are buying minimal differences in "accuracy" past the point of diminishing returns in value.
i.e. if you have a barrel thats 90% more accurate than anything else out there, are you willing to pay an extra $100 for 91%?
Sometimes the jump from 90% to 95% is an extra $100 (or more) per percent, and thats before you even begin to discuss ammo, and all the other variables that affect accuracy.
So I'll admit my bias at this point, after owning a few "accurate barrels" is to grab a white oak if theyre available. The only downside is they dont have as many customizations or options as you'd find in some of the other popular higher end barrel makers.
I inquired during peak covid about a 16" fluted option in rifle length gas, and was told they were too busy to entertain any custom requests at the time, but that in the future it wouldnt be an issue to make something like that. On top of that, they were also sold out of everything else "off the shelf" at the time too, as was brownells, and pretty much anywhere else of the few places that sold white oak.
So I snagged a deal on a proof SS instead, because it was available. I likely overpaid, but between that odd combo (no fluting sadly) of rifle length gas on a 16", and adjustable gas block, its one of the softest shooting ARs I own..and its consistent. I cant say Im disappointed, I just dont think the money I spent was for night and day difference compared to my white oak barrels.
$50 to $100 is an absolute pittance of additional price for even a small percentage of increase in accuracy/precision when trying to obtain the best mechanical accuracy/precision that the AR-15 platform can produce. If someone is not a hand-loader, that’s the cost of just 100 rounds of Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition at todays prices.
Also, absolute accuracy/precision is not the only objective when purchasing a precision barrel for the AR-15. My Krieger barreled AR-15s have shot almost every match-grade bullet that I’ve fired from them extremely well. I’ve found lesser barrels to be more “picky” and someone can easily spend far more money than that additional $50 to $100 for the barrel, purchasing multiple factory loads trying to find a load that the barrel “likes” That applies equally as well for developing a hand-load for a lesser barrel. The phrase “penny wise and pound foolish” comes to mind.
As a perfect example of all this, some of the Larue barrels that I’ve tested were the most finicky barrels that I’ve ever tested and would only shoot well with one load. A person on a “budget” would have been better off purchasing a more expensive barrel, than laying out the additional expenditure of finding a load those barrels liked.
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I bought a WOA upper a number of years ago based on some comments from others that shoot service rifle class. My son shoots 600 yard SR class (sling) and we needed a new combination. Couple years ago before the 1st match with it, did some load testing off bags at 600. I'm used to shooting .308 in FTR, not a .223 very much at that distance.
Was pretty accurate with most loads. After we found the load it REALLY liked, I was shocked how it grouped in testing at 600 yards with a 80g SMK off of bags. He is using a 1/7.5 twist, 80g SMK around 2650.
1,500 rounds later it's as accurate as the day we got it.
Was pretty accurate with most loads. After we found the load it REALLY liked, I was shocked how it grouped in testing at 600 yards with a 80g SMK off of bags. He is using a 1/7.5 twist, 80g SMK around 2650.
1,500 rounds later it's as accurate as the day we got it.
That implies you're somehow not spending money on reloading components to test an optimal load for any barrel, and that whoever is loading is able to produce ammo that is higher quality than factory match ammo in the first place.
Also, if we're discussing true match grade barrels, Ive yet to meet anyone outside of the memberbase on arfcom, that immediately reaches for larue.
You're also comparing something no one was arguing about in the first place. "best mechanical accuracy/precision that the AR-15 platform can produce" is an oxymoron, because accuracy is not developed in a vacuum based on barrel alone. The best barrel installed poorly, or in a sloppy tolerance upper will still cause accuracy issues, not to mention issues with reliability everyone with internet access seems to find when mixing gas systems and gas blocks, the fanciest new lightweight BCGs, and circle jerking with buffer weights and springs because the internet said they "need better".
You're welcome to chase that mechanical accuracy/precision point. Odds are for the majority of shooters, they are nowhere near that point in the first place and stand to benefit absolutely nothing by buying a $1000 barrel, over a $500 barrel.
What kind of barrels are you paying $1000 for? A short chambered Krieger DCM runs $295 or did last time I purchased one.
ETA- nevermind, I wouldn't pay a K for a proof when a Krieger can be had completely finished for half that.
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Generally, I've also found that "good" barrels almost never are very finicky whereas not-so-good barrels are almost always much more finicky, sometimes to the point of never really finding a really good load for them.
My patience with finicky barrels, whether on an AR or a bolt gun, is pretty short these days & generally not worth wasting much time on.
Either they go down the road or just get a nominal load for blasting.
In the end, it just doesn't pay to play barrel roulette with 2nd tier barrels & expect top tier performance from them all.......................like with roulette, once in a while you get lucky, most times, not.
MM
Being WOA’s base barrel is a Wilson blank and they also are on Cooper rifles I can only imagine they are shooters. He has his own reputation that speaks for itself. My post was not comparing barrels, just answering a question that was asked about another brand. If the discussion was between proof and WOA I still wouldn’t give an opinion of which is better as I haven’t put a WOA barrel on yet, but know they are solid.
Wilson blanks with WOA finishing the chamber and crown are good, but I wouldn't buy a barrel completed by Wilson Arms. I had 200 of those made and not going back there. Cutting the chamber concentric on the bore and a good 11 degree crown are 2 important parts of an accurate barrel.
I'll preface my experiences with all three barrels mentioned in the topic by saying this: I was blessed with the ability to always buy the most broken or F-ed up sample of anything. If there are 10 examples on a shelf with one broken and 9 working... I'll inadvertently pick the broken one 95% of the time.
That being said;
My WOA is an 18" predator model, 1:8 twist. It will not shoot the 77SMK, 77CC, 75 Hornady, 69SMK, or 68 Hornady better than 1.5 MOA, usually much closer to 2 MOA. Powders used were Varget, Reloader 15, CFE-223, and TAC. Primers were CCI 41 and 400. Brass is LC, separated by year. After about 200 rounds of flailing away and trying to figure out (WHAT I) was doing wrong, I was just about to give up when I shot some 55gr Hornady bulk SP with N133 through it...MOA. Holy shit...let's try light bullets and VV powders. I've since found a load for it that uses the Midway 62gr Hornady BTHP with a light load of N135 and will shoot between .3 and .5 MOA. Tried going back to the 68/69gr pills and it turns into a shotgun again. Stocked up on 2,500 bullets and 16lbs of VV powder, so I'm in it for the long haul with my WOA and lighter bullets.
I guess I'm just the one guy who found an extremely picky WOA barrel. At least it shoots well with a couple loads.
My Criterion is on a .308. It is an 18", rifle length gas barrel that had a .068" port. It wouldn't reliably function with anything other than heavy loads, and never locked back on an empty magazine. I had actually posted about it here before. Finally, a well-known gentleman here told me to open the port to .093 and I'd never have that problem again...he was correct. When I contacted Criterion before drilling out the port, they told me .068 was the correct size...call me skeptical. After opening the port that rifle runs like a raped ape.
Anyway, that Criterion barrel is .8 MOA with the first attempt at match ammo, MOA with hunting handloads, MOA with factory Winchester white box 150gr PP, and sub-2 MOA with bulk FMJ. No issues since the port debacle. Won't own another Criterion though.
My Faxon is a pencil barrel .223 on a lightweight build I did for my wife. Other than not knowing I was going to have to thermo fit it to my Aero upper, it has ran fine. I have zero clue about the accuracy though as the rifle wears a red dot...it is as accurate as I can drive a red dot with my astigmatism (2-3 MOA). My experience with this Faxon is the least I have with any barrel.
Also have a Ballistic Advantage SPR. My first one was a dud, but they replaced it. The second one was shooting 62gr M855 way better than I've seen when I was breaking it in. That barrel is with my dad now, so I haven't kept up with it.
That being said;
My WOA is an 18" predator model, 1:8 twist. It will not shoot the 77SMK, 77CC, 75 Hornady, 69SMK, or 68 Hornady better than 1.5 MOA, usually much closer to 2 MOA. Powders used were Varget, Reloader 15, CFE-223, and TAC. Primers were CCI 41 and 400. Brass is LC, separated by year. After about 200 rounds of flailing away and trying to figure out (WHAT I) was doing wrong, I was just about to give up when I shot some 55gr Hornady bulk SP with N133 through it...MOA. Holy shit...let's try light bullets and VV powders. I've since found a load for it that uses the Midway 62gr Hornady BTHP with a light load of N135 and will shoot between .3 and .5 MOA. Tried going back to the 68/69gr pills and it turns into a shotgun again. Stocked up on 2,500 bullets and 16lbs of VV powder, so I'm in it for the long haul with my WOA and lighter bullets.
I guess I'm just the one guy who found an extremely picky WOA barrel. At least it shoots well with a couple loads.
My Criterion is on a .308. It is an 18", rifle length gas barrel that had a .068" port. It wouldn't reliably function with anything other than heavy loads, and never locked back on an empty magazine. I had actually posted about it here before. Finally, a well-known gentleman here told me to open the port to .093 and I'd never have that problem again...he was correct. When I contacted Criterion before drilling out the port, they told me .068 was the correct size...call me skeptical. After opening the port that rifle runs like a raped ape.
Anyway, that Criterion barrel is .8 MOA with the first attempt at match ammo, MOA with hunting handloads, MOA with factory Winchester white box 150gr PP, and sub-2 MOA with bulk FMJ. No issues since the port debacle. Won't own another Criterion though.
My Faxon is a pencil barrel .223 on a lightweight build I did for my wife. Other than not knowing I was going to have to thermo fit it to my Aero upper, it has ran fine. I have zero clue about the accuracy though as the rifle wears a red dot...it is as accurate as I can drive a red dot with my astigmatism (2-3 MOA). My experience with this Faxon is the least I have with any barrel.
Also have a Ballistic Advantage SPR. My first one was a dud, but they replaced it. The second one was shooting 62gr M855 way better than I've seen when I was breaking it in. That barrel is with my dad now, so I haven't kept up with it.
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I've had a very similar experience with my 20 inch WOA varmint barrel. Loaded 69smk and 73eldM in Lapua brass, TAC and CCI#41 primers. Tried from min-max OCW tests 2 times. Would shoot about 1moa at best. Then loaded up 55gr Hornady SP with H335 in win brass with CCI#41 from 21.8-24.5gr and all were sub moa most .5 and under. Just bought a 24 inch WOA barrel, when it gets here I'm going to try the 69SMK again, and if it doesn't shoot I'll go try the lower grain bullets
That is painful. You would think they would attempt to cut it as good or better than anyone else handling their blank being it carry’s their name. Maybe a one off, either way 200 blanks that are not satisfactory is pretty tough.
I'm not saying Wilson is the worst because I have tried almost every manufacturer in the country over a 14 year span, some with BIG names. It is hard for me to believe companies selling complete rifles for $2000+ have barrels that are absolute crap. A crown is a simple thing to cut if you know what it takes to keep burrs to a minimum yet there they are turning out barrels and $2000 rifles that shoot 4-6" groups. At least crowns can be fixed.
Other companies still use HSS(high speed steel) reamers instead of carbide, the chambers are so rough they must be sanded to smooth them out. That was 200 from another company that had to be returned and worked on.
I'm about a .75 MOA shooter with an AR and my experience with an 18" Faxon Gunner and a 18" WOA SPR barrel, is that they shoot about the same. I do have a 14.5" Faxon Gunner that I'm a little disappointed in but I need to put some more rounds through it before totally giving up on it.
My next AR barrel will be a Krieger.
My next AR barrel will be a Krieger.
I'll echo this posters findings. I have a SS Proof PR-15 in .223 Wylde that has been a hammer for sure. I don't have any long range groups, but here is a 6 round group (Hornaday 75 gr BTHP) I fired at 100 yards:
That was more or less my point. A $1000 proof isnt 7-10x better than a lot of the "really good" barrels on the market for below $500.
All of that talk about "peak mechanical accuracy" is more marketing than anything else.
No, it's about this; a 10-shot group fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 that has an extreme spread of 0.406 MOA.
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Or a barrel that will shoot Sub 1/2 MOA during Load Development. CLE 18" 6.5CM Bartlein.No, it's about this; a 10-shot group fired from a semi-automatic AR-15 that has an extreme spread of 0.406 MOA.
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I can't even remember the last time I shot one of my small frame AR's. You should definitely give the Large Frame AR's a go, if you can get your hands on a Seekins SP10 receiver set that would be a good place to start.
There are $700 Tikkas that also shoot sub-moa during load development (or with factory ammo) in 6.5 CM.
If you have the capability to "outshoot" most match grade barrels on the market, then more power to you. I am willing to bet that most dont need a $900 barrel, they need maybe a $300 one, and time spent at the range.
I don't see where you are getting these figures from? Most White Oak Barrels I've seen range from $295-$375 if you want the fluted SDM, a Proof SS is $400 all day unless you're an idiot and overpayed??
The difference is the standard $300 WO barrels aren't hand cut barrels, the PR SS barrels are! same as a Krieger or Bartlein. You will not get that level of CONSISTENT ACCURACY fron a button cut WO as you will a Proof.
Now if you can't shoot at a level to tell the difference between the two different types of barrels then no it doesn't matter.
And if you're comparing these $900 barrels which I'm assuming you're talking about the carbon fiber wrapped proof research barrels to a WO barrel then you're already wrong, you're paying that premium for the carbon fiber and nothing else.
In this thread, we're talking about barrels on semi-automatic AR-15 type platforms, not bolt guns.
You seem to do a lot of projecting, as well as inflating the cost of the majority of the semi-automatic AR-15 type barrels being discussed.
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Not even for a rifle "that is not designed for use with match ammo because it's a fighting rifle designed to hit targets out to 700 yards"?
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Me and a few buddies just ordered 24” WOAs the other week. I’m sure hoping they do well with 77smks.
