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Who all's got a "Vintage Sniper Rifle"
- Thread starter Wireman134
- Start date
Which was the best WWII sniper rifle???
That's true, that's why I would pick from the GSM "AS ISSUED" matches, in the Garand, Springfield, and Military matches, looking at the scores, the Springfield have them all beat.
That's true, that's why I would pick from the GSM "AS ISSUED" matches, in the Garand, Springfield, and Military matches, looking at the scores, the Springfield have them all beat.
The debate will likely continue forever and I suspect there is no right answer in a way.
I am aware of how well the A4 and 03A1 USMC rifles have done. Having looked at a couple hundred pictures from the matches, I see at least one major reason why the 03 variants have done so well--they are the most used and most common of all options. More good shooters with good rifles and good ammo= higher chance of victory. Not to say that is the only factor as the rifles, shooters and ammo are all good.
The vast majority of WW2 snipers I have fired, and a few replicas thrown in, 1.5 inch 5 shot groups with good ammo is about were they all fall(+/- about half inch) on a good day. All the snipers were pretty capable and to me it is amazing that the newest rifles are just a little better accuaracy wise, but typically weigh 14 lbs plus. How little progress we have actually made is surprisely small in proportion to what we have invested in the improvements IMO.
Very near MOA is fairly frequent with my old rifles but so is 2 MOA or worse. One of the most common things, and pretty much with all the catagories of rifles, is 3 or 4 shots inside an inch but one to two flyers widening the group. Those flyers, which I suspect are way less common on a current issue Remington 700 issue rifle, is probably the biggest part of the progress which has been made, not to mention the issue ammo.
I probaby should start a tread, and probably will later to get others feedback and experience.
As far as the sniper rifle which made the most difference in WW2, I opine it was the PU. Also the most bang for the buck, simple, inexpensive, rugged, made and issued in huge numbers. It is also amazingly accurate if tuned by the old methods and when used by a good shooter with good ammo. Many of us who shoot them get sub-MOA groups pretty often with good ammo. This is a $600 rifle these days. Amazing value now and then. Having fired 25 or more of these, I have more experience with these than anything else WW2.
If I had to chose what I would take to the field in WW2 it would probably be a PEM side mount, which is what Vasilly used primarily. I have a restored 42 Izhevsk which produced the best group I have had out of a WW2 rifle, 0.39 inch five shot group at 100 yds. It also hit 27 sporting clays in a row, all that I had, at 100 yds and another personel record. The bore is pretty worn and the scope was factory mounted hanging to the right of midbore which I have seen on quite a few WW2 Soviet snipers. The PEM mount is extremely rugged as is the PEM scope, which was a Zeiss design and built on equiptment made and set up by Zeiss in the early 1930s. I am skeptical that I will repeat or better that group ever with a WW2 sniper and part of it had to be alignment of the planets.
The A4s I have fired, 3 original, 2 replicas are pretty accurate but no sub-MOA results so far. More like 1.5 at best. The M73b1 is about the worst scope used in WW2 IMO. I prefer a Lyman. A good M1c is about the same accuracy wise. This is using mostly US Match ammo. I recently got a few boxes of gold metal Federal match to try. Very similiar with my two 1903a1 USMC rifles with Unertl 8x. I need to work on the beddiing as neither have a perfect barrel float and both with replaced Match stocks not numbered to the rifle.
The Japanese rifles are under appreciated. Their scopes are simple, yet rugged and good optics. They zeroed to a specific rifle(less than 10 Japanese snipers in the US have their original matching scope) and very hard to rezero but the complex reticule makes Kentucky type POA very doable. My first Kokura 99 with dirty, milky 2.5X scope from a type 97 gave me a 0.84 inch group first time out. My spotter near messed his pants and I had no clue it was doing so well till afterwards. More typical with any of the Japanese snipers in 1.5-2 but match ammo is near non-existant and I have not loaded enough for the rifles so far to improve this.
The Enfield 303 TR rifles have wonderful scopes, some say the best of WW2 due to the scope staying on after multiple adjustments and back to zero. Having fired only 2, one with poor bore and one with fair bore, I need more experience but the better rifle is 2 ish MOA with match ammo. I know other rifles will better this. MJ can show some of his targets if he likes.
German, well expensive and probably over-rated. They hold right in there in the 1.5 MOA range for the most part. Great optics on many of them but lack of windage on the scope is not good IMO. Like the others, 3 or 4 of five shot group in a ragged hole is not unusual though, even with a couple of my replicas. The G43s I have fired, 3, have been less than impressive and do not keep up with any of the bolt guns IMO. Same true with the SVT-40.
Bottom line, they were all pretty darn good. Tough call, no easy anwer.
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DV nice looking rifles you got there.
Just for your information, if you can't find a 6 or 8 X eye piece for the Unertl, try finding one for your Lyman, both are CMP GSM Vintage Sniper authorized for the M1941's.
I like your Model 52 and Model 70, I have a model 70 like that only in 308 that I got from the CMP.
You're right about the 52's, not many places you can shoot it. It wont compete with the Anschutz in ISU and too heavy for the CMP Rimfire Sporting Rifle and NRA Light Rifle. I've run into the same problem with my H&R 5200.
How ever for me I can shoot the H&R as well in English Matches (prone) as I can my Anschutz 1807. Mine comes with the Olympic Sights and a Remington 24 X.
As too the M1941, that's the one advantage the Marines had over the Army, that being the ability to use the irons by taking off the scope. From what I read that was a huge advantage in the South Pacific where the jungles were too heavy for long range scope use. Although the 2.5 X 'A4 scopes were better in 8X in that environment, irons were better yet.
Again, you have some nice treasures there, congrats.
Just for your information, if you can't find a 6 or 8 X eye piece for the Unertl, try finding one for your Lyman, both are CMP GSM Vintage Sniper authorized for the M1941's.
I like your Model 52 and Model 70, I have a model 70 like that only in 308 that I got from the CMP.
You're right about the 52's, not many places you can shoot it. It wont compete with the Anschutz in ISU and too heavy for the CMP Rimfire Sporting Rifle and NRA Light Rifle. I've run into the same problem with my H&R 5200.
How ever for me I can shoot the H&R as well in English Matches (prone) as I can my Anschutz 1807. Mine comes with the Olympic Sights and a Remington 24 X.
As too the M1941, that's the one advantage the Marines had over the Army, that being the ability to use the irons by taking off the scope. From what I read that was a huge advantage in the South Pacific where the jungles were too heavy for long range scope use. Although the 2.5 X 'A4 scopes were better in 8X in that environment, irons were better yet.
Again, you have some nice treasures there, congrats.
First one isn't a sniper, but I guess it could have been
1926 54 Winchester 30 Gov't 06, Stith Mounts, and a K 1.5 Weaver
Second one could be considered vintage Sniper. A C. Sharps Long Range Express 45 2 4/10th's
1926 54 Winchester 30 Gov't 06, Stith Mounts, and a K 1.5 Weaver
Second one could be considered vintage Sniper. A C. Sharps Long Range Express 45 2 4/10th's
Some more great rifles posted. Me too on the Folgers and I keep some ammo and componets in the storage cans also. You will find them under my reloading table.
A couple nice Win 70s and I like that sporter stock. Nice.
A couple nice Win 70s and I like that sporter stock. Nice.
Some of yall have some seriously nice piles of rifles. Any of yall still use the older rifles exclusively for your long range shooting (as in only use the old mosins, 1903s etc rather than 700s, AIs)?
Thanks - but that is not counting my "Modern" rifles, as it shouldn't in this forum:
Remington 700P - .308Win - Leupold Mk4 3.5-10x40mm M3
Remington 700P - 300WinMag - Hi-Lux Unidial 7-30x50mm - includes a magazine extension increasing to 5 rounds, sub for DBM
Trying to simulate a M24 and XM24A1. Need to replace the scope on 300WinMag to a Schmidt Bender or Leupold but funds are lacking.
jbarn_1999
Remington 700P - .308Win - Leupold Mk4 3.5-10x40mm M3
Remington 700P - 300WinMag - Hi-Lux Unidial 7-30x50mm - includes a magazine extension increasing to 5 rounds, sub for DBM
Trying to simulate a M24 and XM24A1. Need to replace the scope on 300WinMag to a Schmidt Bender or Leupold but funds are lacking.
jbarn_1999
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/firearms-sale/417-how-post-pixs.html ( link is cut and paste from this website, all caps aren't mine)
