Who DOES NOT clean the copper out of the bore?

[SWThomas]

I've seen several vids and read several articles that say you shouldn't clean the copper out of the bore. The theory is that the copper creates a bearing surface inside the bore, which gives the rifle it's best accuracy when allowed to build up. These proponents say that the carbon is what can harm a bore, but the copper has no ill effects. Do you guys do this or do you clean the copper out regularly? Is this just for precision rifles or any rifle?

One dude in a vid was shooting 1/2" groups with his rifle, cleaned all the copper out, and then the groups opened up to over an inch. It took him over 50 shots without cleaning to get his accuracy back to where it was.

 

[Andy Warhog]

You're going to get nothing but mixed opinions here. Figure out what works for you and what your rigs like

 

[bustin]

I've seen several vids and read several articles that say you shouldn't clean the copper out of the bore. The theory is that the copper creates a bearing surface inside the bore, which gives the rifle it's best accuracy when allowed to build up. These proponents say that the carbon is what can harm a bore, but the copper has no ill effects. Do you guys do this or do you clean the copper out regularly? Is this just for precision rifles or any rifle?

One dude in a vid was shooting 1/2" groups with his rifle, cleaned all the copper out, and then the groups opened up to over an inch. It took him over 50 shots without cleaning to get his accuracy back to where it was.

That is BAD advice. You want the carbon layer in the bore not copper. Copper will continue to build on itself and rip more copper from the bullets. Carbon will form a protective layer
so the dry copper bullet does not stick to the bare metal of the bore.

 

[EricCartmann]

That is BAD advice. You want the carbon layer in the bore not copper. Copper will continue to build on itself and rip more copper from the bullets. Carbon will form a protective layer
so the dry copper bullet does not stick to the bare metal of the bore.

I mostly agree with this. However, for some barrel the build up seems minimal and has no ill effects. I myself think it's better to have copper build up to protect the barrel, only if there is no ill effect.

I think it's best to treat it on a case by case basis...

For my Savage Barrel I have to clean the barrel with sweets (copper removal) every 150 rounds prevent over pressure and to maintain accuracy. The copper build up in my Savage barrel did cause my rounds too be too hot.

My Remington 5R Barrel, I have not cleaned her with Sweets in over 400 rounds. Velocity is consistent and so is accuracy.

 

[ORD]

This topic...much like barrel break-in...will draw a HUGE range of responses and honestly, not one is more or less right or wrong to a certain extent. Cleaning, generally, is overrated and probably should be left well enough the hell alone unless and until you see a decline in accuracy. I have seen more barrels @#%ed up from cleaning (especially over-cleaning or from improper cleaning techniques) than I ever have or likely will from being left the hell alone for a while. The other BIG factor that comes into play is how much and how frequently you are shooting the rifle.

I will say, with respect to copper fouling, I disagree with the folks who say that say or otherwise suggest that "carbon is what can harm a bore, but the copper has no ill effects." That, to me, seems more than a little unfounded and certainly not grounded in any well-reasoned scientific methodology with respect to galvanic (bimetallic) corrosion. Simply put, you can get into issues of corrosion in your bore with copper fouling and how it reacts, at least for extended periods of time, with the steel of your barrel (regardless of the type of steel).

 

[Robby0931]

Cleaning, generally, is overrated and probably should be left well enough the hell alone unless and until you see a decline in accuracy.

That makes the most sense to me.

 

[SWThomas]

This is the video I was talking about...

Todd Hodnett- shooting on a clean bore - YouTube

 

[-Nick-]

Cleaning, generally, is overrated and probably should be left well enough the hell alone unless and until you see a decline in accuracy.

+1... Minus the action and bolt of course.

 

[bustin]

There are articles all over the web mostly from barrel makers that tell you to clean the copper out. As the barrel smooths out it will collect less copper and build up a layer of carbon.
After it stops copper fouling you can shoot it dirty until accuracy falls off. At that point you clean it and then start all over letting the carbon build up again. Barrels do usually shoot better dirty and it takes some fouling shots before they settle down but it's carbon fouling shots.
A customer several years ago call complaining about the barrel losing it's accuracy after 800 rounds. He returned it and I borescoped it. The copper fouling in the barrel looked like tree roots running all over the throat area. They stuck out into the bore area, it wasn't like thin copper foil. It took me almost an hour to clean the copper out. I charged him $60 to clean the barrel and returned it to him. He tested it the next week. Called me back to say the barrel wasn't shot out after all and accuracy was back to 5/8..."I guess I should clean it more often" he said. He's still shooting the same barrel.
6mmBR.com is a benchrest site and one of the best to get good info. Benchrest guys go back and forth about cleaning every 20 rounds to keep the barrel super clean or after the bore is burnished and has that carbon layer letting it go until accuracy degrades but they never say leave the copper in the bore.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

This is not my Quote it was from another wise hide member a long time ago.


"Cleaning your rifle before the accuracy weans, is like wiping your ass before you shit!"

 

[EricCartmann]

This topic...much like barrel break-in...will draw a HUGE range of responses and honestly, not one is more or less right or wrong to a certain extent. Cleaning, generally, is overrated and probably should be left well enough the hell alone unless and until you see a decline in accuracy. I have seen more barrels @#%ed up from cleaning (especially over-cleaning or from improper cleaning techniques) than I ever have or likely will from being left the hell alone for a while. The other BIG factor that comes into play is how much and how frequently you are shooting the rifle.

I will say, with respect to copper fouling, I disagree with the folks who say that say or otherwise suggest that "carbon is what can harm a bore, but the copper has no ill effects." That, to me, seems more than a little unfounded and certainly not grounded in any well-reasoned scientific methodology with respect to galvanic (bimetallic) corrosion. Simply put, you can get into issues of corrosion in your bore with copper fouling and how it reacts, at least for extended periods of time, with the steel of your barrel (regardless of the type of steel).

I can go both ways on this, and I truly believe you have to take it by a case by case basis because I have found both instances to be true.

I have not cleaned my Remington 5R barrel at all in over 400 rounds and velocity and accuracy stays the same. However, on the flip side....

At about 150 rounds through my Savage Barrel, I have to clean the barrel with sweets (copper remover) to remove the copper or else I get over pressure. Not just that but my groups do open up if I do not clean her. I know it's the copper build up that causes the over pressure because many patches are green when I use sweets.

Everyone should take the time to know their own rifle and how it behaves. I agree with the posters who basically are saying cleaning for no reason is not only a waste of time, it's dumb! To me it's not rocket science. If the groups open up, then clean her... if you are getting over pressure on a cold bore with the same loads, then clean her.

 

[Blaster7Romeo]

I got a LTR that i knew was a good shooter from my buddy. I cleaned it and it opened up to 2 MOA gun and it took about 20 or 30 rounds to get it back to shooting as good as it did before.. i watched every group shrink a tad as i shot it.. and no it was not my shooting. lol

 

[TheGerman]

This is the video I was talking about...

Todd Hodnett- shooting on a clean bore - YouTube

I saw this a while back and was under the same impression. You pretty much shoot the rifle and IF you clean it you on clean with something like Hoppe's that cleans carbon but not copper.

He says he uses MPro7, but looking at the site for their gun cleaner it says:

Significantly cuts cleaning time
Improves accuracy and reliability
Conditions to reduce future fouling
Removes carbon, lead and most copper fouling

So did he mean he just uses the gun oil to clean the bore?

 

[rideHPD]

I will say, with respect to copper fouling, I disagree with the folks who say that say or otherwise suggest that "carbon is what can harm a bore, but the copper has no ill effects." That, to me, seems more than a little unfounded and certainly not grounded in any well-reasoned scientific methodology with respect to galvanic (bimetallic) corrosion. Simply put, you can get into issues of corrosion in your bore with copper fouling and how it reacts, at least for extended periods of time, with the steel of your barrel (regardless of the type of steel).

That is incorrect, and not how galvanic corrosion works. Steels do vary on the galvanic series, and a good passive stainless steel is high enough on the galvanic series above copper that copper will be the sacrificial component. Galvanic corrosion also requires a solvent to bring ions of each species into contact with each other, so this process should only be considered if you get the bore wet, and shouldn't be an issue if properly oiled such that the two metals are not brought in direct contact. That said, I have a 700 that copper fouls to no end, and after a very low round count needs to be cleaned otherwise blue copper-compound salt deposits form in the bore and patches with copper solvent (Boretech Eliminator and copper solvent) come out purple, as the blue copper ions are so concentrated the patches are dark blue to almost purple.

 

[Muskox]

Waiting for th emotional outpour of full-retard to happen.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

I use copper remover when I break in a barrel. After that I only clean using a carbon remover for around 4-500 rounds, or more, depending on how it's performing.

 

[Charger442]

ill probably be chased out of here on a rail for saying this but i do not even own copper solvent. nor do i really ever clean any of my rifle's bore. the rifle i built on an FN SPR action with Douglas Air gauged barrel has only gotten better and better shooting in the last three years. i have no plans to change that, by hand.

 

[EricCartmann]

Waiting for th emotional outpour of full-retard to happen.

LOL. That seems to be the norm for gun forums. More so this place than others I have seen. This is why I come here though, to see these full-retard outpourings!! HAHAAH

 

[TitaniumBlue]

I will tell you this. With my bolt action Palma rifle chambered in 308 Win, I do a good thorough cleaning once a year. Otherwise, every 50-100 rounds I will run a couple dry patches through it to clean out anything that is loose in there. A year of shooting can add up to be 2000 rounds of shooting with no major cleaning. While doing this, my gun will still hold a sub .5 MOA at 1000 yards.

I used to make rifle barrels for a living. Clean all you want, barrel makers love it, you get to buy a new barrel that much sooner.

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

I have a new Kreiger 24 inch 5R barrel (300 win mag) that I have broken in according to manufacturers instructions. I've got about 50 rounds down the pipe, so far.

Would the cleaning requirement differ from 308 to 300 win mag? Any increased risks of over pressure from copper buildup? Would I just watch for normal signs of over pressure?

 

[Muskox]

LOL. That seems to be the norm for gun forums. More so this place than others I have seen. This is why I come here though, to see these full-retard outpourings!! HAHAAH

Eric,

Full retard is kind of how we roll on this site. Because, you have about 4 groups of people:

1. Kids emotional or age driven who are on here because it of the g-whiz fan boy factor. Ages probaby 5-99.

2. Experts who are not.

3. People that have a genuine interest in long range shooting of different levels of knowledge who are generally nice people.

4. Actual military snipers.

And those 4 groups could be broken down into four types of people.

1. Military guys or ex-mils that have a wide range of experience.

2. Civillian fans of shooting with a wide range of experience.

3. Fan-boys who are self described experts.

4. Fan-boys who are enthusiastic and here to learn.


I would say I am a 20 year military veteran, who was never a sniper and is here to learn. I try to limit my full retard tantrums to one a week or less.

 

[Graham]

If you fail to clean the copper out of your barrel your .308 won't become a .284, and your bullets won't slow down.

 

[TheGerman]

If you fail to clean the copper out of your barrel your .308 will become a .284, and your bullets aren't going to slow down.

You're joking right?

Maybe after 50k rounds or something. If this were true the guy in the video that shoots 8k rounds and only cleans carbon would have blown himself up already.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

I've never run anything down the bore on my upper. It shoots well so no need to clean it.

 

[BCP]

You're joking right?

Maybe after 50k rounds or something. If this were true the guy in the video that shoots 8k rounds and only cleans carbon would have blown himself up already.

My romanian PSL did that it was keyholing. Copper cleaner got it shooting straight again. That is the only time I've ever had that problem though.

 

[TheGerman]

My romanian PSL did that it was keyholing. Copper cleaner got it shooting straight again. That is the only time I've ever had that problem though.

I think we're looking at this more of a usual maintenance thing than a corrective measure. You had something go wrong and fixed it, which is necessary. However I think the argument is that unless its broke (copper fouling causing keyholing), don't try and fix it.

 

[AutoEssentials]

After initial break in, I generally shoot several hundred rounds between bore cleanings. It could be 300-500 rounds. After I clean, it takes a good 20 rounds for the gun to really settle in again.

 

[SquidHC]

I run a bore snake down my barrel with some oil after I'm done shooting, then I run it through dry. I clean my bolt and action lightly and call it a day. No issues thus far, and roughly 1,500 rounds into this barrel.

 

[elfster1234]

I run a bore snake once with CLP oil. If i feel like accuracy is falling off ill run foam bore cleaner and let stand for 10min and then snake again with CLP. Entire rifle gets cleaned after each trip to the range. One last note on using foam bore cleaner is to make sure you plug the gas tube with tip of finger when you spray the foam in and to take a airhose to the gas tube from bolt side (blowing any possible foam back into barrel) so you dont get foam in the gas tube as it can get sticky. Also make sure when using snakes to pull out of barrel as straight as possible so you dont damage the crown. Ill also clean my snakes after about 10 cleanings.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

Here's some information I came across relevant to this discussion. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it very thoroughly presents Infomation about the difference between copper and carbon fouling.

SNIPER 101 Part 40 - Coppering and Powder Fouling - Rex Reviews - YouTube

 

[Strykervet]

You're going to get nothing but mixed opinions here. Figure out what works for you and what your rigs like

This, kind of. I clean my bore with Hoppes, but after so many rounds, it'll get a treatment of Sweet's. Take my 6.5G. This is a cut rifle Satern bbl. and it no shit shoots .33MOA at around 100y. Considering I just got the right scope for it, I've only got 198 down the tube on this one, so with this in mind, I figure keeping it as clean as possible is wise. I'll probably give it Sweet's after 500 unless nothing has changed, then I may go a little longer. I don't like using Sweet's too much, and remember, it won't touch carbon, it just chemically dissolves copper and can be harmful on your bore over time, hence use sparingly and clean it out well.

If you keep a dope book of all your shots, you may be able to see a change in grouping due to copper buildup over time. Whether that helps with accuracy or not, I suppose is up to that weapon, but generally it isn't good to have it built in there, and it certainly shouldn't look remotely anything like a glistening new penny when you shine a light down it.

Some barrels though have very minor imperfections that can get impacted with the copper and smooth them out a bit and then you may see a decrease in accuracy if it is subsequently cleaned out with something like Sweet's. But you should still do it from time to time.

Some folks, they'll tell you not to touch Sweet's with a ten foot pole. And it can be some nasty and harmful shit. But there is nothing like it, and it used sparingly and cleaned out thoroughly, it is a great, safe product. One bottle lasts a lifetime.

 

[Graham]

You're joking right?

Right.

I usually post the answer that your .308 won't become a .284 and your bullets won't slow down, but that was getting old so I changed things up a bit. I have since edited it.

As to Todd, the gentleman in the video, blowing himself up by accident that's another issue entirely. He probably won't, because he's learning new things about shooting every day, but I am concerned about his new method of using sticks to find gold because it looks dangerous.

 

[Mitch Harrington]

CLP and a bore snake after every other range trip to remove the carbon fouling keeps my bolt and gas guns very consistent. If accuracy starts falling off at some point, then I will remove the copper fouling.

 

[bluto77]

....I'll run foam bore cleaner and let stand for 10min and then snake again with CLP. Entire rifle gets cleaned after each trip to the range....

I use CLP foam bore cleaner after nearly every trip to the range. I run a cloth patch on a brass jag down the barrel with a coated Dewey cleaning rod using a Dewey rod guide to keep the the foam in the barrel. The CLP foam has a plastic tube that allows you to get it flush against the opening of the barrel so it doesn't get on the gas tube. I let it sit for about 15 - 20 minutes before I start, and then I run the patches through until they're clean and dry. Then I run a patch with Hoppe's 9 through and run another couple until they come out relatively clean and dry. Then I run a patch with a little rem oil on it if I know I'm not going to be shooting that rifle again for awhile. Sounds like I may be cleaning it too much. I've recently noticed on one of my rifles that the groups were getting better and I hadn't cleaned the barrel the last few trips to the range. Being relatively new to this sport, I thought my skill level may be getting better, but there could be a correlation to the cleaning or lack thereof. I think I'm going to try leaving the CLP bore foam alone for the time being since it cleans copper, and just use the Hoppe's 9.

Of course, my gain in improvement could also be from altering my shooting form, or using different ammo/load, or using a front bag instead of a bipod, or not stepping on any cracks in the sidewalk, or doing a rain dance before I start shooting.....and now I'll add not cleaning copper fouling, or not cleaning carbon fouling from the barrel to the mix of variables. So many damn variables to this game! I guess that's what makes it fun.

 

[Graham]

I used a blended Scotch and a rattlesnake, but the copperheads fouled too much. Now I shoot smaller calibers so I use a single barrel bourbon and a garter snake.

 

[elfster1234]

LOL! too funny.

shit man, now I know you're just trolling. Funny tho! good stuff

I used a blended Scotch and a rattlesnake, but copperheads fouled too much. Now I shoot smaller calibers so I use a single barrel bourbon and a garter snake.

 

[Graham]

Yesterday at the range was a man with three high-end Blaser rifles... and a Lead Sled. He would fire five rounds, then clean. He thoroughly cleaned each bore with a copper brush: He sawed on that steel cleaning rod until I could hear it, from three benches away, making a squeaking sound as he repeatedly shoved the brush out the muzzle then back again no less than thirty times in each barrel. He didn't have or use a bore guide. Once, when I got close to him, I could hear the rod hitting the side of something inside the rifle and making an audible 'click' sound every time he shoved the brush into the chamber. I didn't say a word. Good thing that I didn't try, though, because as I watched I could barely speak.

 

[gilgamesh1]

I don't know with certainty what is good or bad for the barrel. But I clean for carbon at the end of the day (not during the day no matter how much I shoot). I clean for copper when accuracy wanes. I have observed that copper cleaning results in a temporary, yet irritating, decrease in precision. I do not have a bore scope, but from what I can see this practice has had no meanful ill effect on my firearms over the years.

 

[81STFACP]

On a different application, high power competition. One of our High Master shooters who shot for the AMU when he was younger, installed a new Krieger barrel in his AR service rifle. He wanted to see at what point would the rifle quit shooting, he shot the rifle in competition and in practice till the rifle did not go bang. The rifle lasted 3700 rounds with no cleaning. He thoroughly cleaned the rifle and shot it again without cleaning any thing, including the BCG. At out state service rifle championship his rifle did not go bang during the standing stage. He took out the BCG, oiled and freed the firing pin, barrel was not cleaned and finished the stage. This time the rifle lasted 3500. The rifle went through 7200 rounds and I would say with no degradation in accuracy - the shooter won the 600 yard event over a field of a few HMs among the 90+ shooters. His X count at 600 was still over 50%.

A few more matches after the state match the barrel gave up. He replaced it and went back to his normal cleaning routine after each 80 shot match. His new barrel did not last any longer than the one that was cleaned twice, when new and after 3700.


nez rongero

 

[elfster1234]

maybe we could all get advice from this guy..... just skip to 2:30

LiveLeak.com - Gun instruction video with sweet ending

Yesterday at the range was a man with three high-end Blaser rifles... and a Lead Sled. He would fire five rounds, then clean. He thoroughly cleaned each bore with a copper brush: He sawed on that steel cleaning rod until I could hear it, from three benches away, making a squeaking sound as he repeatedly shoved the brush out the muzzle then back again no less than thirty times in each barrel. He didn't have or use a bore guide. Once, when I got close to him, I could hear the rod hitting the side of something inside the rifle and making an audible 'click' sound every time he shoved the brush into the chamber. I didn't say a word. Good thing that I didn't try, though, because as I watched I could barely speak.

 

[Briant_az]

I don't shoot any competitions or anything, I'm just a hunter but I never go into the field with a clean gun. All my rifles shoot better after they have some fouling going on! When I go to the range before the hunt I will clean the gun and then shoot it about 10 rounds. Then it goes in the case and stays there until the hunt.

 

[bluto77]

...Now I shoot smaller calibers so I use a single barrel bourbon and a garter snake.

Communist. Using the blended Scotch was acceptable, but the single barrel bourbon...it's just wrong. You sir, obviously live north of the Mason Dixon Line.

 

[bustin]

Yesterday at the range was a man with three high-end Blaser rifles... and a Lead Sled. He would fire five rounds, then clean. He thoroughly cleaned each bore with a copper brush: He sawed on that steel cleaning rod until I could hear it, from three benches away, making a squeaking sound as he repeatedly shoved the brush out the muzzle then back again no less than thirty times in each barrel. He didn't have or use a bore guide. Once, when I got close to him, I could hear the rod hitting the side of something inside the rifle and making an audible 'click' sound every time he shoved the brush into the chamber. I didn't say a word. Good thing that I didn't try, though, because as I watched I could barely speak.

Same here, around 08 in Durango a park service employee known as a shooter had just told he had a new barrel installed on his precision 308. I watched him do the same thing from the muzzle end with no bore guide. I couldn't believe he was cleaning like that after the way everyone in town talks about how well he shoots. When he left there was a pile of black plastic from the cleaning rod coating laying on the ground.

 

[Huskerhunter]

Who DOES NOT clean copper out of the bore? Is this a trick question? My first thought was, "Cast boolit guys?"

Seriously, I saw quite a bit written by the bore scope crowd that it was the CARBON RING...carbon deposits right ahead of the chamber that was the enemy. The ring swages the bullet enough that it becomes slightly undersized and then does not "fit" properly as it goes down the barrel. So some guys are most obsessed with carbon build up right ahead of the chamber and have become less worried about copper.

 

[bombadillo]

It seems that my stainless barrels virtually never need to be cleaned with a copper solvent, and my other barrels all need to be cleaned with a good copper solvent. Not sure why this is true of MY gear, but almost always the case in my guns.

 

[Graham]

It seems that my stainless barrels virtually never need to be cleaned with a copper solvent, and my other barrels all need to be cleaned with a good copper solvent. Not sure why this is true of MY gear, but almost always the case in my guns.

How do you know that?

 

[bombadillo]

How do you know that?

The results. After cleaning with a harsher solvent, it would get worse until I got enough rounds down range. After that, it would group consistently better. Only true of my stainless barrels though. That said, most of my barrels were heavy or a medium heavy barrel and the others were typically more of a hunting or lightweight contour. Not sure if it has much or any bearing on why it would happen like this, but it was only an observation, not making any broad statements.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

That is BAD advice. You want the carbon layer in the bore not copper. Copper will continue to build on itself and rip more copper from the bullets. Carbon will form a protective layer
so the dry copper bullet does not stick to the bare metal of the bore.

I don't know how you come up with carbon being a protectant. Diamonds, the most abrasive thing on earth are made of carbon. Carbon is an abrasive, not a protectant.

 

[Graham]

After cleaning with a harsher solvent, it would get worse until I got enough rounds down range. After that, it would group consistently better.

Right: You don't want to clean all the copper out of your bore.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Right: You don't want to clean all the copper out of your bore.

So, Graham, in all seriousness, is there a way to clean only some out, and if so, how do you know when to stop? Or should you clean it and foul it again? Thanks for your input.