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Why 223 and 308 are not dead .....yet
- Thread starter Renomd
- Start date
F T/R, guys.
.223 and .308 is that whole ball game, lest we forget.
Greg
.223 and .308 is that whole ball game, lest we forget.
Greg
True. Almost all .308 where I shoot. Wish they'd open it up to more calibers but I don't see that ever happening.
F class was tried out at the first (Provisional) Spirit of America Match at Whittington Center Labor day week 2002. It was fired alongside the Palma Matches. When we started that year, F T/R had to be fired from a bipod and bag, and F Open could use a rest and bag. I was squadded in F Open, shooting a .260 off a rest, on the same mound (and target) with a Palma shooter.
There were no caliber restrictions that related directly to T/R or Open at the time. Later, there was pressure from Palma shooters who shot only .223 and .308, and after some haggling, they won out with those calibers being mandatory for F T/R. I disagreed, but that's how things remained, and I had to accept it along with everybody else. Like you, I don't see that ever being reverse.
Some time after the first modification, another was instituted to require F Class to shoot on reduced size targets, while Palma targets never changed. There were reasons, and there was some validity, but I also felt that the Palma folks were putting the F Class shooters 'in their place'.
I've never had a nice easy feeling when these differences come up.
I guess I'm just an unreasonable hardhead on the subject. Please feel free to ignore me.
Greg
There were no caliber restrictions that related directly to T/R or Open at the time. Later, there was pressure from Palma shooters who shot only .223 and .308, and after some haggling, they won out with those calibers being mandatory for F T/R. I disagreed, but that's how things remained, and I had to accept it along with everybody else. Like you, I don't see that ever being reverse.
Some time after the first modification, another was instituted to require F Class to shoot on reduced size targets, while Palma targets never changed. There were reasons, and there was some validity, but I also felt that the Palma folks were putting the F Class shooters 'in their place'.
I've never had a nice easy feeling when these differences come up.
I guess I'm just an unreasonable hardhead on the subject. Please feel free to ignore me.
Greg
Welcome to the politics of games, when there is glory and prizes to be had. To be hardheaded on this subject is to be on the side of right. It doesn't mean you/we/I win but being on the right side of things is something that I can live with.
Frank posted an article on Facebook today, related (in some ways) to this seemingly nonsensical restriction. It's a pretty good read IMHO...
http://americanshootingjournal.com/institutional-inertia/amp/
http://americanshootingjournal.com/institutional-inertia/amp/
I love winter in far north because I have the local range to myself for about 5 months. Once the weather warms up they begin to trickle in and group together like geese at the pond. The dreaded cartridge experts. They set up their altars of instruments, fuss over where to properly place all their equipment and with great ceremony finally remove the finest rifle ever made...until a fellow acolyte shows up and unveils a new, indispensable piece of equipment that no one else has...until next week. They group together pretending to be interested in each other's pile while at the same time secretly glancing at the other shooter's gear. Hoping to make eye contact so that they can invite themselves over to pretend to be interested in your set up while waiting to tell you how superior their "stuff" is and why the latest cartridge on the glossy mags will change the shooting world forever.
Once they see the tired old box of antiquated, ineffective and definitely not sexy .308 Win match ammo I see them change from interested to bored or worse...feeling sorry for the old guy who isn't keeping up with Jones'.
They stay a bit not sure what to say...maybe ask why no fancy "zero" targets just homemade torsos or what the 3x5 index card with the black 1"×1" black square is for and look puzzled when I remark that at 850m+ all I care about are consistent hits in the golden triangle.
One of the more observant ones may ask what the card says that's taped to the buttstock or who put the surveyors tape on the wooden dowels on the way to the target frames. They nod their heads as though understanding when I explain wind calls and then they show me their sophisticated electronic ballistic calculators or smart phone apps that I could download that would be so much better and look cooler. They appear disappointed when I tell them my phone is in my old truck...I'm at the range to practice not be distracted. One asks about my choice of glass and I can tell I'm about to be lectured again. Sounds like Charlie Brown's Mom as I notice I need to freshen up the paint on my old Nightforce...maybe buy a real killflash and get rid of the pantyhose and rubber band rig.
Eventually they tire of the discussion, move along back to their comfort zone and I can get back to business. I get set, breathe, squeeze and ring steel at 600...and I didn't have to spin my special BDC turrets...guess hold over with the ancient mil dot reticle still works.
Snow and cold can't come soon enough...maybe I'll just load up some more "musket balls" until the leaves turn and all of the geese head south again.
Alpha Mike Foxtrot
GWI, Gothic Serpent, GWOT...somewhere in the Magic Kingdom
" Private Pyle now you put that rifle on the deck..."
Once they see the tired old box of antiquated, ineffective and definitely not sexy .308 Win match ammo I see them change from interested to bored or worse...feeling sorry for the old guy who isn't keeping up with Jones'.
They stay a bit not sure what to say...maybe ask why no fancy "zero" targets just homemade torsos or what the 3x5 index card with the black 1"×1" black square is for and look puzzled when I remark that at 850m+ all I care about are consistent hits in the golden triangle.
One of the more observant ones may ask what the card says that's taped to the buttstock or who put the surveyors tape on the wooden dowels on the way to the target frames. They nod their heads as though understanding when I explain wind calls and then they show me their sophisticated electronic ballistic calculators or smart phone apps that I could download that would be so much better and look cooler. They appear disappointed when I tell them my phone is in my old truck...I'm at the range to practice not be distracted. One asks about my choice of glass and I can tell I'm about to be lectured again. Sounds like Charlie Brown's Mom as I notice I need to freshen up the paint on my old Nightforce...maybe buy a real killflash and get rid of the pantyhose and rubber band rig.
Eventually they tire of the discussion, move along back to their comfort zone and I can get back to business. I get set, breathe, squeeze and ring steel at 600...and I didn't have to spin my special BDC turrets...guess hold over with the ancient mil dot reticle still works.
Snow and cold can't come soon enough...maybe I'll just load up some more "musket balls" until the leaves turn and all of the geese head south again.
Alpha Mike Foxtrot
GWI, Gothic Serpent, GWOT...somewhere in the Magic Kingdom
" Private Pyle now you put that rifle on the deck..."
LOL! All while the rest of us are engaging IPSC targets from 200-900yds ,in a pre-set order, under a time constraint, and not from a bench or prone...
Times change...
Times change...
I like his approach. Alot.
Makes me awestruck to consider that Carlos was bagging his hamburgers with stuff that was simple to the point of being simplistic, and makes me look like a gear queer.
While attempting to soundly defeat a target, I will work to get decent groups when doing load development, and to plot real world drops. Then make the ammo, stick the Stock Chart on the buttstock, and move on to the next project rifle.
But I'm no Luddite; I'm just desensitized to the siren song of the newest and greatest. One can overdo the simple approach until it becomes a badge of..., something...; something I just don't have the time (or uncommitted income) for. My motivations are simple,i just can't carry so much in my current days of decrepitude.
Like as not, that neat little M&P Shield I had my eye on will get transformed by lady fortune into a washing machine to replace the one that's currently sitting in a puddle in the laundry cubby.
So it just gives me a small and private thrill to be able to put it where I want it with just the minimum ado.
Greg
Makes me awestruck to consider that Carlos was bagging his hamburgers with stuff that was simple to the point of being simplistic, and makes me look like a gear queer.
While attempting to soundly defeat a target, I will work to get decent groups when doing load development, and to plot real world drops. Then make the ammo, stick the Stock Chart on the buttstock, and move on to the next project rifle.
But I'm no Luddite; I'm just desensitized to the siren song of the newest and greatest. One can overdo the simple approach until it becomes a badge of..., something...; something I just don't have the time (or uncommitted income) for. My motivations are simple,i just can't carry so much in my current days of decrepitude.
Like as not, that neat little M&P Shield I had my eye on will get transformed by lady fortune into a washing machine to replace the one that's currently sitting in a puddle in the laundry cubby.
So it just gives me a small and private thrill to be able to put it where I want it with just the minimum ado.
Greg
Gear queers are everywhere, as are wallet whores. Like PBR S/G just before an just after hunting season the newest fads line the range, but looking at their targets they seem to be trying to buy in vs acquiring ability. Glad it's over for this year, but even then when the weather is bad the place is all mine. Guess most don't hunt in bad weather, then again most anyone can shoot in/on a COC day.
I only shoot .308 and ,223 on one multi-caliber system, the desert tech SRS. I have no plans on changing calibers, ever.
.308 is a great subsonic caliber and the supersonic loads have a generous recoil which challenges me and keeps me busy. It's a great hunting load and with a 16inch barrel, it's a cannon and I love it. It takes me to 1,000 yards.
.223 is brand new to me and after shooting it a few times, its one awesome fun shooter. She's quiet and no kick, which my daughter will soon learn to love as well. Shooting Hornady polymer coated steel cased match rounds at 35 cents a round doesn't suck. After 2000 rounds, the ammo savings will eventually pay for my SAC conversion.
I don't shoot competition, but if I did, neither of the above two calibers would be my weakest link...
.308 is a great subsonic caliber and the supersonic loads have a generous recoil which challenges me and keeps me busy. It's a great hunting load and with a 16inch barrel, it's a cannon and I love it. It takes me to 1,000 yards.
.223 is brand new to me and after shooting it a few times, its one awesome fun shooter. She's quiet and no kick, which my daughter will soon learn to love as well. Shooting Hornady polymer coated steel cased match rounds at 35 cents a round doesn't suck. After 2000 rounds, the ammo savings will eventually pay for my SAC conversion.
I don't shoot competition, but if I did, neither of the above two calibers would be my weakest link...
Attachments
I hope we all understand that my reference to 'gear queers' is facetious. Truth be told, I retain a huge portion of jealous when I see what wonders money can buy, but my true emphasis is to make what I already have work to its and my potential. Great gear is only of benefit as long as the user can eke out the full potential it offers.
I can't buy my way into the X ring because no matter what I add to the mix, the only true limiting factor is myself. I have, as is stated in The Peter Principle, already attained my own personal level of incompetence. Eventually, everyone does.
I had originally avoided loading for any caliber besides .308 (back in the mid-1990's); and then, held off until around 2002. It became an obsession to make it work at up to 250yd distances in a mundane Rem 700 .223 VLS. I gave up, but only after several years of trying. To my mind, that last bit of accuracy should have arrived, and I never thought to suspect the equipment, mostly because it was so basic and simple.
Then I acquired a Varmint AR with some excellent inherent accuracy, and began to realize that the 700 may have been holding me back. That is the only instance where I may have been hampered by equipment, and I'm still not sure that was actually the case.
These days, in the past five or six years, I have dived into the .223 with complete abandon, eventually owning two precision AR's, two 16" Uppers, a Mossberg .223 MVP Predator, and a Savage 11VT .223 with several significant upgrades. One of the precision AR's was what I used to get my Granddaughter all the way to National MR600 F T/R competition.
As you say, it is an awesome fun shooter; and projects with other chamberings are of a lesser priority for me.
Greg
I can't buy my way into the X ring because no matter what I add to the mix, the only true limiting factor is myself. I have, as is stated in The Peter Principle, already attained my own personal level of incompetence. Eventually, everyone does.
I had originally avoided loading for any caliber besides .308 (back in the mid-1990's); and then, held off until around 2002. It became an obsession to make it work at up to 250yd distances in a mundane Rem 700 .223 VLS. I gave up, but only after several years of trying. To my mind, that last bit of accuracy should have arrived, and I never thought to suspect the equipment, mostly because it was so basic and simple.
Then I acquired a Varmint AR with some excellent inherent accuracy, and began to realize that the 700 may have been holding me back. That is the only instance where I may have been hampered by equipment, and I'm still not sure that was actually the case.
These days, in the past five or six years, I have dived into the .223 with complete abandon, eventually owning two precision AR's, two 16" Uppers, a Mossberg .223 MVP Predator, and a Savage 11VT .223 with several significant upgrades. One of the precision AR's was what I used to get my Granddaughter all the way to National MR600 F T/R competition.
As you say, it is an awesome fun shooter; and projects with other chamberings are of a lesser priority for me.
Greg
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The only thing more fun than these stories is at the range the week before hunting season opens to watch the guys with the expensive rifles trying to zero their magnum rifles. Even more fun after they go back into town to buy more ammunition.
Hey fellas,
I heard I was mentioned in this forum and I'm honored. Here is the skinny on my 223 ammo....
I use Nosler 85gr RDF bullets seated long (1.985 to ogive) and use MDT mags BC I dont like the AI 223 mags. I run RL15, CCI small rifle primers, LC brass. I am running at 2900fps and use G7 of 235 for the bullets. I get my brass from MikesReloading.com for$96.00/1000 delivered and that's sized, deprimed, swaged, trimmed, annealed and polished. I dont pick up my brass because of the price and it does have signs of pressure. The primers are flattened and the brass might have 2 or 3 more firings but I don't care. I also chose LC because of the thinker walls over thinner commercial brass.
My rifle is a Surgeon RSR action, small firing pin, Proof stainless barrel 1/7 twist 26" long with an old Surefire brake on it. It sits in a McMillan made KMW Sentinel stock with Terry Cross's IMB, a 2 stage Timney Calvin Elite flat trigger is in all of my rifles. Other than that I have a US Optics ER25 with H59 reticle that I love and is good to go.
I heard I was mentioned in this forum and I'm honored. Here is the skinny on my 223 ammo....
I use Nosler 85gr RDF bullets seated long (1.985 to ogive) and use MDT mags BC I dont like the AI 223 mags. I run RL15, CCI small rifle primers, LC brass. I am running at 2900fps and use G7 of 235 for the bullets. I get my brass from MikesReloading.com for$96.00/1000 delivered and that's sized, deprimed, swaged, trimmed, annealed and polished. I dont pick up my brass because of the price and it does have signs of pressure. The primers are flattened and the brass might have 2 or 3 more firings but I don't care. I also chose LC because of the thinker walls over thinner commercial brass.
My rifle is a Surgeon RSR action, small firing pin, Proof stainless barrel 1/7 twist 26" long with an old Surefire brake on it. It sits in a McMillan made KMW Sentinel stock with Terry Cross's IMB, a 2 stage Timney Calvin Elite flat trigger is in all of my rifles. Other than that I have a US Optics ER25 with H59 reticle that I love and is good to go.
Nosler will eventually post up loading information but will be conservative for safety and legal purposes.
My load is 25.0 grains of RL15 and I would say that is max. I am suggesting start at 23.5gr of RL15 and work up cautiously depending on your loading techniques, experience and style.
My load is 25.0 grains of RL15 and I would say that is max. I am suggesting start at 23.5gr of RL15 and work up cautiously depending on your loading techniques, experience and style.
