Viable option for getting 6.5 to 300NM in one gun with one scope.
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The creeds a very forgiving round to learn with but if youre serious about getting good its all about trigger time. A 26-28" barrel chambered in 223 for your bolt gun is perfect for a range that caps at 1k. You can shoot good ammo for half the price, barrel last twice as long, and you have to focus on environmentals. Hands down best caliber for someone whos dedicated to learning the craft imo
I was about to make the same exact comment. Three Archs and he now wants to buy two CDG's. No stocks, no triggers, no barrels, no bases, no rings or optics but he wants to buy two more custom actions?
No....I'm not buying this story.
Gentlemen, I see a lot of NaySayers in this thread.
LilGucci has been with us for some time, and has been very active, recently. While we may not all approach things the same way, we are all here for many of the same things... Some form of common ground, opportunities to improve our craft, the ability to share knowledge and experiences regarding our hobbies, passions, business enterprises, etc... and to shoot some stuff (or at least talk like we do).
I can look across the room right now and say, with extreme confidence, that I have thousands of dollars in parts that have no host, or are in XYZ stage of build, upgrade, refinement, etc... and more thousands of $ in rifles and optics that, admittedly, may not even have a single round down the pipe yet.
Who are we to judge a man for having 3 actions in line with a solid plan for builds and safe harbor keeping? I bet I've got 3-5x as many receivers locked away for just the same. Hell, I've probably even forgot some of my build intentions for some of them... I bet some of us even have cars, or motorcycles we don't drive... rounds we don't reload, primer stashes that could support a kid's semester of college... anything here ring a bell to any of you fine gentleman?
Quite frankly, LilG is doing things with greater intent and purpose, and with more motivation that I have, from time to time, that's for sure. I respect the guy for what he's trying to do: Learn the craft, from ground zero, while taking in his available resources in the ways he knows best... He's come to the Hide because its generally a level above arfcom and the others, lets make sure we're stepping up to the plate, accordingly.
It's been my experience on most forums there are 2 types of people trying to "learn"
1. Someone that researches and reads as much as possible even if it isn't pertinent to what they are interested in just trying to understand enough to ask intelligent informed questions.
2. Someone that constantly asks questions that have been asked and answered hundreds of times and could be answered with a search and a little reading. Questions like what is the cheapest scope for long range, what size tires can I fit on a stock jeep, why is the ls so popular. What makes 1 watch better than another.
The latter seems to also get bootyhurt when people won't hold there hand and spoon feed them info like a baby bird.
Everytime I ask a question I at first ask myself will this contribute to the knowledge base of the forum or am I just being lazy and unwilling to find it on my own.
1. Someone that researches and reads as much as possible even if it isn't pertinent to what they are interested in just trying to understand enough to ask intelligent informed questions.
2. Someone that constantly asks questions that have been asked and answered hundreds of times and could be answered with a search and a little reading. Questions like what is the cheapest scope for long range, what size tires can I fit on a stock jeep, why is the ls so popular. What makes 1 watch better than another.
The latter seems to also get bootyhurt when people won't hold there hand and spoon feed them info like a baby bird.
Everytime I ask a question I at first ask myself will this contribute to the knowledge base of the forum or am I just being lazy and unwilling to find it on my own.
You’re not wrong, but some of us are trying to help him not make the same mistakes we have made ourselves. I’ve read his reasoning behind his purchases and I see costly errors. You said it yourself, you can have a safe full of half baked bullshit because you’re new to this, or you can have a few high value firearms and get shooting. Choose wisely
Oh BS...you may have lots of parts but you also have working rifles, right?
But, you almost had me singing kumbaya LOL
No, buying 5 receivers with zero other parts and no working rifle is not a story I'm buying.
Cheers
Haha, yeah... I've got a few working ones, too. I believe LilG does as well, just not, perhaps, BoltAction at this point.
LilG, While I don't run or own a Reciever Company, I can give some insights given my background in engineering and operations.
Ultimately, it comes down to fixed and variable costs... conceptually it can be a little tricky, but hang in there with me, and we'll walk through it.
Specifically, let's focus on the receiver itself (IE, not bolt, coatings, trigger assemblies, or any other parts/treatments that are sometimes outsourced.)
As indicated by one of the other members, you will need a CNC machine to mill the parts, which can cost $500k-$1mm or more! Aaron at Gunwerks has some amazing videos of some of this stuff and touches on optimization and vertical integration aspects, quite eloquently in this video: Click Here
Alt:
Generally, these machines will be financed or depreciated over a given period (7 years is not uncommon)... So you're looking at ~$16,500/mo to pay for this equipment, assuming a 10% interest rate for a business loan at $1,000,000.
In addition, you'll need a facility to run this machine in. For a facility the size of Aaron's, linked above... I'd estimate somewhere along the lines of $12,000-18,000/mo, inclusive of property taxes. Let's call it $13,500 for simple math.
You'll also need a guy/gal to oversee the facility and manufacturing operation. $100k-$200k annually for an Ops Manager, is not uncommon (depending on the industry and size of the overall operation.) for simple math, let's call it $15k/mo after you include benefits and all that fun stuff.
If you add those three together and another $5k for misc items such as insurance, marketing, and General and administrative expenses, you've got your large components of "overhead" covered at a sum total of $50k/mo. These costs will be there if you make zero parts, one hundred parts, or one thousand parts/mo. while fixed in nature, these are called your variable costs... because they vary according to how many units you make.... confused, yet? Hear me out:
Say your raw material for each receiver is a $50 block of metal. While you may get some volume discounting, it will never scale in the same way your overhead costs will. Same with the person that is operating your machine. If your operator makes 4 receivers/hr, and, because he's a skilled technician running an expensive piece of equipment, he makes $40/hr. That means you are spending $10/receiver in labor. These costs are your fixed cost because you have to spend $50 for each block, and you have to pay your operator for each 15min that he/she is making your receivers. So $60/receiver.
The math for receiver cost goes like this:
1 receiver/month = ($50,000 / 1 receiver) + $60 = $50,060/receiver
100 receiver/mo = ($50,000 / 100) + $60 = $5,060/receiver
1000 receiver/mo = ($50,000 / 1000) + $60 = $560/receiver
Do you see, now, why the overhead costs are considered variable, and how the per-piece costs are considered fixed?
Great!
So if we make 1000 receivers/mo, we can lower our costs to $560 each.
If we want to make money... we will have to add a margin (profit) into the equation.
While I don't know the profit margins of receivers, I do know that in my Industry, we target a 37% contribution margin (or better).
So if we used that number: $560/(1-.37), we get to a sales price of $888.88 to make our target revenue per receiver sold.
$888 sounds pretty close to some of those numbers you're familiar with
If you wanted to cut the cost more, you could add another machine and another operator... or run the machine up to its theoretical limit of 24/7 operations. Ideally, you want to fully absorb your overhead (make your variable costs as little $ as possible), or at least as much as your business demand and personnel can handle!
certainly the above is a very watered-down version of what goes into running a manufacturing facility and business. Still, hopefully, that helps to show what costs can go into it, aside from the machining of the metal itself.
All that is great from a business perspective but in my opinion an action is 1500 because that's what people are willing to pay for the improvements and quality over an factory action. If the market were larger the large factory companies would be making them for 600 and if it was smaller an action would be 2500 and only a few companies would exist. I don't care what it costs defiance to make an action. I imagine they price them to what the market will allow
Would you suggest I build my Bolt guns first over my AR's? I've already stated in this thread that the reason I'm building my AR's first is because there might be a ban on semi-autos in my state. I can't do everything all at once. I can't build out my bolt action guns, buy suppressors, and build my AR's at the same time. Something has to give. How would you schedule your builds if you lived in a state that was not 2A friendly? The best advice I've been given is to buy my suppressors first, so that is the route I am taking. Suppressors aren't cheap, especially the ones I'm buying.
Yes I considered the multi-caliber Accuracy International, and I told you that I'd rather have 3 different guns to try different things out.
I want to try out different chassis, everything from MDT, to AI, Cadex, Foundation, Manners, KRG, and MPA. I also want to try out different barrel companies, from Bartlein to Kreiger, Hawk Hill, Benchmark, and Proof. I, unfortunately, don't have the choice, but if it were up to me, I'd also like to try out different Actions, including Defiance and Impact, maybe Big Horn, Curtis Custom or Lone Peak. I also want to try out different triggers, from Triggertech to Jewell, Bix'nAndy, Timney, etc.
I'm sure Accuracy International is great, just like KAC is great, but it's not really what I'm going for.
Just a simple question… why are you pondering the price of a premium action when you could easily spend $60k by thanksgiving according to your schedule? I’d be about $70k poorer by the time I assembled 13 AR’s with optics and suppressors. I recommend you assemble one small frame ar and start shooting it. Figure out what you like and don’t like before you build another one. You need to spec out your builds based on whether they will be suppressed or not. You need to have a purpose before you start acquiring parts. Your parts have to work together, not against each other.
Build one small AR, then build one archimedes, then build one large frame AR. Don’t focus on trying everything. Focus on mastering a few things, Don’t be so spread out that you kinda suck at everything. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
If your custom builds are not more expensive than a Savage...or any other off the rack factory rifle...you just fucked up real big
Fuck...it would have been less expensive to leave that fucking libtard state and move across the eastern border
Well, today was slow at work and I got bored of TikTok so I posted a question I was wondering about for a long time. I was just wondering about the price difference between the AR world and the Bolt Action world.
I've already calculated out my AR15 builds for this year and they come out to about $13,000 for 7 complete guns. In 2025, I will then buy a Daniel Defense upper and a PRI Mk12 upper to complete my AR-15 builds.
I think my parts selection have been pretty good, the only things I don't know too much about are buffers and buffer systems. And also Gas systems. I've gotten great recommendations on Barrels, BCGs, and Triggers.
My builds for this year are very focused:
Rifle1 SPR Custom
Rifle2 3-gun Custom
Rifle3 General Purpose / Recce Custom
Rifle 4 Noveske build
Rifle 5 SBR Custom
Rifle 6 SBR BCM build
Rifle 7 Geissele Super Duty build
Yeah, they come out to about $3000 for my 556 build, and $4000 each for my 308 and 6.5 build. (not including the Actions since I already have those)
I think the biggest expense aside from the action is the chassis. For my 556 gun, it's an MDT, for my 308 its an Accuracy International, and for my 6.5 Creedmoor its an MPA matrix.
I would suggest you don’t look into high end shotguns. And maybe lay off the excel for a while. Go for a walk. Not trying to be a dick.
You’re high on “gear hunt.”
Sounds like you are building shit just to build shit. Nothing wrong with it. But at least have a purpose on building it. I have quite a few AR's but really only shoot like 1-2 with the type of shooting that I do.
Same thing with bolt guns, most of use have gone through a lot of iterations of builds, but now I try to keep it simple with 2 AI's My customs is all in pieces with no real plans for it, cause I only really bring like 2 or 3 guns to the range at a time I enjoy shooting the AI's way more.
I tend to focus way more on ammo then guns. You can have all the latest and greatest guns out there, but without ammo or a way to make really good ammo, they are just show pieces to show off.
That's good advice. I was thinking of getting into reloading in 2025. Definitely stocking up on ammo though.
Of the 7 AR15 builds, 3 - 4 of them will be used Monthly and used in a rotation, just like I'm doing right now with my handguns and PDWs. My Noveske build is a keepsake, I've always wanted one, but I'll still use it regularly. My SPR will be the primary gun I use to learn long-distance shooting with since it'll have a 20" Bartlein and a decent optic. My 3-gun rifle will be used for competition and training. My SBRs will be used for home defense and for CQB training.
I feel like not using one of my guns will be neglecting it. I don't think any of my AR15s will be safe queens. My AR10s on the other hand won't be used as often, which is why I only think I'm going to build out 2-3 of them.
It's also kind of too late for me to go with an AI since I've already committed to 3 ARC Archimedes actions.
Haha, yeah... I've got a few working ones, too. I believe LilG does as well, just not, perhaps, BoltAction at this point.
LilG, While I don't run or own a Reciever Company, I can give some insights given my background in engineering and operations.
Ultimately, it comes down to fixed and variable costs... conceptually it can be a little tricky, but hang in there with me, and we'll walk through it.
Specifically, let's focus on the receiver itself (IE, not bolt, coatings, trigger assemblies, or any other parts/treatments that are sometimes outsourced.)
As indicated by one of the other members, you will need a CNC machine to mill the parts, which can cost $500k-$1mm or more! Aaron at Gunwerks has some amazing videos of some of this stuff and touches on optimization and vertical integration aspects, quite eloquently in this video: Click Here
Alt:
Generally, these machines will be financed or depreciated over a given period (7 years is not uncommon)... So you're looking at ~$16,500/mo to pay for this equipment, assuming a 10% interest rate for a business loan at $1,000,000.
In addition, you'll need a facility to run this machine in. For a facility the size of Aaron's, linked above... I'd estimate somewhere along the lines of $12,000-18,000/mo, inclusive of property taxes. Let's call it $13,500 for simple math.
You'll also need a guy/gal to oversee the facility and manufacturing operation. $100k-$200k annually for an Ops Manager, is not uncommon (depending on the industry and size of the overall operation.) for simple math, let's call it $15k/mo after you include benefits and all that fun stuff.
If you add those three together and another $5k for misc items such as insurance, marketing, and General and administrative expenses, you've got your large components of "overhead" covered at a sum total of $50k/mo. These costs will be there if you make zero parts, one hundred parts, or one thousand parts/mo. while fixed in nature, these are called your variable costs... because they vary according to how many units you make.... confused, yet? Hear me out:
Say your raw material for each receiver is a $50 block of metal. While you may get some volume discounting, it will never scale in the same way your overhead costs will. Same with the person that is operating your machine. If your operator makes 4 receivers/hr, and, because he's a skilled technician running an expensive piece of equipment, he makes $40/hr. That means you are spending $10/receiver in labor. These costs are your fixed cost because you have to spend $50 for each block, and you have to pay your operator for each 15min that he/she is making your receivers. So $60/receiver.
The math for receiver cost goes like this:
1 receiver/month = ($50,000 / 1 receiver) + $60 = $50,060/receiver
100 receiver/mo = ($50,000 / 100) + $60 = $5,060/receiver
1000 receiver/mo = ($50,000 / 1000) + $60 = $560/receiver
Do you see, now, why the overhead costs are considered variable, and how the per-piece costs are considered fixed?
Great!
So if we make 1000 receivers/mo, we can lower our costs to $560 each.
If we want to make money... we will have to add a margin (profit) into the equation.
While I don't know the profit margins of receivers, I do know that in my Industry, we target a 37% contribution margin (or better).
So if we used that number: $560/(1-.37), we get to a sales price of $888.88 to make our target revenue per receiver sold.
$888 sounds pretty close to some of those numbers you're familiar with
If you wanted to cut the cost more, you could add another machine and another operator... or run the machine up to its theoretical limit of 24/7 operations. Ideally, you want to fully absorb your overhead (make your variable costs as little $ as possible), or at least as much as your business demand and personnel can handle!
certainly the above is a very watered-down version of what goes into running a manufacturing facility and business. Still, hopefully, that helps to show what costs can go into it, aside from the machining of the metal itself.
This is incredible. I can't believe you broke this all down like this. Thank you so much, this would make a great script for a Youtube video because its so beginner friendly.
This site is a great resource, I've really enjoyed using it. I depend on it more than Reddit and Arfcom for precision-focused topics. Many of the old threads are a goldmine of information for me to digest, and there have been many helpful people helping me out along the way and I appreciate their help greatly. Thank you for this post.
Quite an investment.
What do you shoot now and how often? Or in other words,
What do you shoot now and how often? Or in other words,
You could save yourself a lot of money and aggravation by going to a match. Volunteer to be an RO. Talk to the shooters. Handle their gear. Some may even let you shoot their rifle. You’ll quickly see what you like and don’t like. Instead of throwing away thousands of dollars….
Yes. And a small, rich boy, LilGucci is. Who loves spreadsheets.Confirmed. LilGucci is a teenage boy.
Just buy an Impact 
And be done with it.
And OR is far from anti-2A. Machine guns, DDs, NFA everything, open carry, hunting is good, and judges that understand the Constitution. While it's limited on years left, it's not THAT bad. Portland is another story...
And be done with it.
And OR is far from anti-2A. Machine guns, DDs, NFA everything, open carry, hunting is good, and judges that understand the Constitution. While it's limited on years left, it's not THAT bad. Portland is another story...
That is the generally idea of how companies try to price their products which have an elastic demand, at the optimum balance of price and consumer demand.
I believe Defiance specifically may have found out the hard way that consumer demand for custom actions is, in fact, highly elastic. I seem to recall just a couple months ago that they had a very long backlog of orders and quite a few commercial arrangements in place to OEM for various other companies that sold custom actions, so much business in fact that they were booked solid for the near future. Now they're prominently advertising availability for new orders and many of their biggest commercial customers publicly switched their supplier.
Clearly price increases were necessary if the demand for their product was more than they could keep up with. Whether the prices got increased by too much or not remains to be seen based on how the business performs in the coming years.
Yeah Defiance made a big ol'mistake. However I'm stoked for Impact and GAP that combo gonna be like Ram&Cummins.
I'd say save your money, build one 14.5 gun and one Bolt gun. spend the rest of your money on ammo and training.. because when SHTF you're not gonna be able to tote around 7 AR's.
Another is eastern insurance. Something like $300/yr for $50k.
Includes up to X amount for ammo and loading gear.
And only need a pre-itemized list for anything over 10k. So, you have the option of combining optics/rifle in a single claim over 10k, but requires it the he itemized before the loss. Or you can decide not to itemize, but you will have to do paperwork on each item such as a scope and rifle that were stolen together. So that each claim is under 10k.
What are you talking (ranting) about?
As I said there are people that want you to spoon feed them all the info since they are too lazy to find it themselves. My case in point, why do I have to spend my time looking up the info for you? My very next post had my opinion why they are so expensive. I can't tell if you are trying to troll here or honestly don't know the difference between a factory action and custom.
I'm not the one that bought actions without knowing why. I know exactly why I bought my action 60* bolt throw, m-16 extractor, 3 lug and the ability to run profit barrels. How many links would I have to post to explain the difference between all the custom actions and pros and cons against factory.
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@LilGucci
Alot of posts here I scrolled past, so if it's been said, I'll reaffirm.
I'm not a manufacturer of firearms so I don't know the intricacies of either AR or Bolt actions. I am a machinist by trade though. This is my 2 cents worth. The following is simplified.
AR is aluminum either billet or forged. Aluminum will not need heat treatment (added cost). AL is easily machined and high feed rates are possible which equals volume. A machine tool is hundreds of thousands of dollars. Each operation uses a fixture, or the machine has to reposition for each approach. Fixtures and thier design costs as well. An AR mag well can be broached or EDM. Broaching is drawing a toothed bar through an opening to finish it. Each tooth progressively removes a small amount. EDM is electrical discharge machining and uses a wire with current through it that removes a tiny amount. It cuts the desired profile. Aluminum cuts faster than steel, especially heat treated steel. Aluminum has much less residual stees than steel.
Steel heat treatment is an art in itself. Carbon content and other elements require different heat, duration, draw down, etc. The steel may need hardened, tempered, and annealed. Both pre and post machining operations. The big companies (Remington, Savage, Tikka etc) probably do this on a grand scale versus small lots done by the custom makers. They also probably scrap, (or should) more than the small manufacturers make. If you can find a "How it's Made" type video, it would give you an idea of the processes.
Alot of posts here I scrolled past, so if it's been said, I'll reaffirm.
I'm not a manufacturer of firearms so I don't know the intricacies of either AR or Bolt actions. I am a machinist by trade though. This is my 2 cents worth. The following is simplified.
AR is aluminum either billet or forged. Aluminum will not need heat treatment (added cost). AL is easily machined and high feed rates are possible which equals volume. A machine tool is hundreds of thousands of dollars. Each operation uses a fixture, or the machine has to reposition for each approach. Fixtures and thier design costs as well. An AR mag well can be broached or EDM. Broaching is drawing a toothed bar through an opening to finish it. Each tooth progressively removes a small amount. EDM is electrical discharge machining and uses a wire with current through it that removes a tiny amount. It cuts the desired profile. Aluminum cuts faster than steel, especially heat treated steel. Aluminum has much less residual stees than steel.
Steel heat treatment is an art in itself. Carbon content and other elements require different heat, duration, draw down, etc. The steel may need hardened, tempered, and annealed. Both pre and post machining operations. The big companies (Remington, Savage, Tikka etc) probably do this on a grand scale versus small lots done by the custom makers. They also probably scrap, (or should) more than the small manufacturers make. If you can find a "How it's Made" type video, it would give you an idea of the processes.
He's been ranting like a spoiled, ignorant child in a bunch of threads.
Understanding what works for you and what doesn't is an iterative process.
And that involves not just handling them, but shooting them in various conditions and situations.
Going to a match and handling rifles and stocks/chassis' is certainly a good starting point on this journey. But it's just the beginning.
My rifle went through numerous iterations before I finally felt settled with it.
Why are some glass over $3000??? They are all made out of glass and metal
Sadly, I think advice to the OP is lost. He seems pretty set on his plans, regardless of all the questions we answer for him.
You can lead a horse to water...
He started planning an AR build in 2020.
In this thread alone, he stated plans going into 2025 for rifles and reloading. He’s been here since 2019, but recently has started what feels like an avalanche of posts & threads.
2025 folks. Twenty twenty-five. Two oh two five.
Here imma sittin’ just tryna get time to get a couple rifles packed and shipped to LRI for threading.
Firing up the spreadsheet…getting ma Davey Crockett coon skin cap on…mebbe that’ll help.
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I was busy with other things in 2020 and didn't have my parts list assembled at that time. I was looking at buying complete guns at that time but hadn't fully done enough research into them.
The only thing I'm just holding off on is two builds until I can buy the complete upper in 2025. That is my Daniel Defense upper and my PRI Mk12 upper. Everything else is on track to be completed this year.
I don't think you've made a new point here.
If ARs are planned to be banned by 2025, per your own words, how are you going to buy those uppers in 2025?
If they are banned, then they are banned. I will have 7 completed rifles by the end of this summer and will be more than happy with them.
I didn't know an AR ban would include complete uppers, are BCGs and barrels also included in a AR15 ban? I thought only the lower receiver would be banned.
I'll have extra barrels, BCGs, handguards, etc anyways so it shouldn't be a problem. I've just ordered two barrels and will buy a lot more as soon as I'm done getting my suppressors.
You realize you can only shoot one at a time, right? Why build so many ARs and not one long rifle?
