I was seriously considering a TIKKA T3X TAC A1 6.5 CREEDMOOR rifle but then discovered that semi-autos as just as accurate and actually cost much less. Can anyone please give me a reason why is TIKKA better for 1000 yards than some PSA AR10 with a long barrel?
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Why bolt???
- Thread starter AKMsoldier
- Start date
Define "Just as accurate"
These group of gentleman seem to disagree. Note they shoot the same course of fire.
Gas Gun appears at #89.
Also please tell me where this mythical sub $800 Precision Semi-Auto appears. I'd like one please. (yes tac A1 is $1500, but the same rifle with a basic stock is MUCH less, and while ergos are nice, the metal does the work).
These group of gentleman seem to disagree. Note they shoot the same course of fire.
Precision Rifle Series - OKIE SHOWDOWN - Aug 29, 2020
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.
www.precisionrifleseries.com
Gas Gun appears at #89.
Also please tell me where this mythical sub $800 Precision Semi-Auto appears. I'd like one please. (yes tac A1 is $1500, but the same rifle with a basic stock is MUCH less, and while ergos are nice, the metal does the work).
Yeah, the crucible of competition usually weeds out lesser ideas. If it wasn't for Sun Valley and Leatherslap, we'd still be shooting one handed in a FBI Crouch.
I wouldn't say one is better than the other if they are both equally accurate, I would say it's just two different animals when it comes to the mechanics of the rifle and what kind of rifle you want to shoot. Since you are talking 1000yds I assume you are shooting 6.5CM not that you can't with a 308, but 6.5CM is definitely the better round for 1000yds.
Tikka bolt action pros vs. factory PSA AR10
1. Better trigger.
2. Inherently more accurate.
3. More reliable action.
4. Lighter
PSA AR10 Pros vs. Tikka bolt action
1. More aftermarket options for pistol grip, handguard, butt stock.
2. Quicker follow up shots.
3. Slightly less recoil.
4. Way less expensive magazines.
OP - depends on your target size at 1K to define accurate. Modern gas guns can be very competitive v. bolt gun out to 1K yards. At that range rifle mechanics are a wash; reading the wind, ballistic calculator, good scope, single digit ammunition, proper positioning behind chosen firearm and learning to pull the trigger straight back every time with follow-thru will define your success at that range much more than whether you rack the bolt handle between each shot or not. The 2011 1oth Annual International Sniper Competition was won by SFC Gianelli (spotter) and SGT Homeyer (designated sniper) using a LaRue OBR 16" and 20" example, respectively. The 16" OBR was getting 12" plate hits consistently @ 800 M with the OBR shooting 0.5 MOA groups. Bryan Litz used the OBR in his long range shooting evaluations and published the results in his benchmark text. I posted target results on another thread first round hits using a 16" OBR at 800-900 meters. In fact it was Gianlle / Homeyer /Litz's results that motivated me to try and replicate them with a similar platform.
www.snipershide.com
As is often the case, a good shot at your range of interest is much more dependent on the rifleman than the rifle.
Scope mount for semi-precision AR10
I'm currently building an AR10 that I plan to use for longer-range shooting (maybe out to about 1000yds - though I'd also like to be able to potentially transition to CQB if necessary). For a little detail, I'm using an Aero Precision M5 upper with a Wilson Combat match super sniper-profile 18"...
www.snipershide.com
As is often the case, a good shot at your range of interest is much more dependent on the rifleman than the rifle.
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1MOA is good to me,,,, Goal - shooting at 500-100 yards. Targets, not hunting, windy conditions sometimes. Definitely 6.5 creedmoor. Faster follow up shots are a strong advantage of semi IMHO. For shorter distances I have my Springfield M1A with glass bedding and 3 AR15s. I don't really want to spend more than $1500. I don't find classic Remington rifles sexy enough, even though they may be functionally good.
I've got a Tikka T3x TAC A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor, a 6.5-CM barrel for my Barrett MRAD, and a LWRCI REPR MKII Elite (AR-10 form-factor) also in 6.5-CM. So that's one for around $1,200 (the Tikka), and two rifles over $4,500 each (MRAD and LWRCI). Frankly, I shoot the tightest groups with the Tikka. It's amazing out to 1,400 yards. Not sure how it would compare to a "bargain basement" AR-10 ... but I think the Tikka is a terrific price-performer. IMHO
I have a homebuilt AR10 in 6.5 Creed that I built for ~$1200. I have a Savage based 6.5 Creed that was under $800. Both shoot easily under MOA and will whack plates all day long. Both are fun in their own way. With the bolt gun I feel like I am connected to it mechanically and enjoy running the action. It's easier to line up the shot and quite a bit more stable feeling. The AR10 feels more disconnected, but it will run through some ammo in a hurry. If all you want to do is see how fast you can send 100 rounds downrange then get the AR.....
...but you need to have both
...but you need to have both
Hmmm... Thank you all for your valuable opinions. If TIKKA groups are visibly tighter and also if ir goes to 1400 yards (even though I am not smart enough to shoot that far and hit a target) - I would go for TIKKA. You got a really good deal at $1200 new. I don't mind waiting but it looks like I will have to wait for 1-2 years with this COVID and walking zombies situation. Ironically, the best use of a bolt rifle in my family was without shooting. During WW2 my grandpa's Red Army unit got attacked, they ran out of ammo, he unfolded the bayonnett from his Mosin rifle and charged. He got a medal for killing 7 enemy solders with that bayonnett. I hope they all rest in piece - it not soldiers' fault if they are sent to fight for the wrong cause.
I have both semi and bolt (Rock River Semi 308 and lots of bolt guns including AI, savage, Rem, FN, Armalite etc)
I prefer my bolt guns because,
-There a bit more accurate (the AR10 however is absolutely capable of the accuracy you want tho)
- I reload and the bolt guns are easier on my brass and I don’t have to chase it in the field or strap a condom to the side of my rifle
- I shoot suppressed with both platforms and the bolt is quieter than the semi. I have a superlative arms adjustable gas block in the AR10 so it’s tuned for the suppressor but it’s still a noticeable difference in sound due to the ejection port
That said I wont sell my AR10. I just prefer the bolt platform for what I use them for. I plan for the AR10 to be one of my Thermal hosts in the future for better follow up shots when night hunting
I prefer my bolt guns because,
-There a bit more accurate (the AR10 however is absolutely capable of the accuracy you want tho)
- I reload and the bolt guns are easier on my brass and I don’t have to chase it in the field or strap a condom to the side of my rifle
- I shoot suppressed with both platforms and the bolt is quieter than the semi. I have a superlative arms adjustable gas block in the AR10 so it’s tuned for the suppressor but it’s still a noticeable difference in sound due to the ejection port
That said I wont sell my AR10. I just prefer the bolt platform for what I use them for. I plan for the AR10 to be one of my Thermal hosts in the future for better follow up shots when night hunting
I don't want to consummate the relationship with the rifle I want to consummate the round with the intended target !
6.5 Creedmoor AR Showdown
Why don’t more people use gas guns in the precision rifle world? I get asked that question a lot. Ma...
precisionrifleblog.com
Well Nazi vs Communist the "cause" was basically equal.
Shooting an auto accurately is far more difficult than a bolt action.
Fundamentals of marksmanship must be followed 100% or you will miss.
My M1A Supermatch is an honest sub MOA rifle, but I can only occasionally muster a sub MOA group out of it whereas I can consistently shoot around .6" groups from my bolt action. The recoil impulses are drastically different, as well as the duration of the recoil impulse.
Fundamentals of marksmanship must be followed 100% or you will miss.
My M1A Supermatch is an honest sub MOA rifle, but I can only occasionally muster a sub MOA group out of it whereas I can consistently shoot around .6" groups from my bolt action. The recoil impulses are drastically different, as well as the duration of the recoil impulse.
If we follow some people logic here, a person who spends $7000 on a rifle is rich? Not necessarily. If we are talking about small amounts, it's a question of how much you are willing to spend on certain things. However, if you are willing to buy a 2 million dollars home, you better be wealthy. The sweet spot price of a bottle of red wine is about $25, then the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Honestly, I have not determined the best value price point of a semi auto AR10 6.5 CM yet. It looks like it is better to have both semi auto and bolt sniper rifles, probably bolt first since I already have an M1A Springfield.
If you are going to buy a 6.5 AR10 rifle, look at the Seekins SP10.
GMGlasgow... You have an interesting point. Shooting well is not easy. For some reason I shoot some guns better than others and I think it's me, not the gun.
Seekins SP10 looks nice and its not that expensive. Now listed at $2100. I wander what was the price before the COVID 19.
i would argue the bolt is more accurate and reliable. More moving parts etc. i enjoy my ar10 and have it dialed in but i think limiting the gas system to where it is on the edge of short stroking is the key to getting the most accuracy out of it.
Some people also say that consistency is another advantage of bolt action rifles. I dont have any experiene to judge though.
You obviously haven't shot long range with both. After a certain range, running the bolt won't be much slower than the trigger reset on the semi auto.
If you want to shoot long distances 1 MOA is not good at all. I am not sure what the advantage to a follow up shot is if you are shooting paper. If you are hunting a follow up shot is rarely any good because the critter took off when you missed the first shot.
The M1A is a cool rifle but in this day and age it is obsolete and not competitive anymore. I know blasphemy to some of you. I own some M1A's but rarely shoot them anymore because there are better choices.
I think your $1500 figure is unrealistic if you are serious about shooting long range. You may find a nice used Remington 40-X or entry level rifle like a Ruger Precision at that price point or lower, however you will spend at least that much or more on glass on top of the price of the rifle. If you watch the used rifles for sale on the Mile High Shooting inventory on Gun Broker you will find a decent rifle. I have read some of the posts here and I am not a big fan of making fun of someone based on the cost of the gear they shoot. I can remember when I wished I could some day be able to afford a 40-X, now I have a safe full of them.
I don't drink wine however I have found the cost of a decent bottle of bourbon is $200 and up.
If all you care about is 1 MOA, don’t buy either, buy a used Ruger American or the standard used plastic 700 , sexiness is stupid, function matters and potential upgrades matter. Hell, these days most cheap hunting rifles will hold 1 MOA, But if you actually want to hit small targets at long range even just a bargain T3, will shoot tighter groups, feel a lot better doing it, and has a huge array of potential upgrades you can make in the future when you have enough experience to know what you want. There is nothing more irritating when you are trying to learn to shoot than figuring out if a miss was your fault or your gear letting you down. Then you can spend more on a half decent optic, a laser range finder, a good ballistics calculator and a class. Super rangerific and High-speed? Nope. Good way to get out shooting at ranges longer than 1000 yards? Yep. Neither the Tikka nor the AR10 will fit your grandfathers bayonet very well.
I would not compromise on optics.It has to be German glass. Tract TORIC for $700 is the best deal I could find for that. Looks are not the most important thing for me but they still matter. There are other bolt rifles that look similar to TIKKA T3X TAC A1 but they either have some issues or are significantly more expensive. That TIKKA model has mixed reviews. Some people say it covers all your long distance shooting needs, some say its kind of average. I have not tried bourbon for $200 but my favorite Buffalo Trace bourbon and my favorite cognac De Luze work well for me and are both under $50. The most expensive wine I had was $300 per bottle - to me it did taste the same as a $40 wine. There is no substitute for a real authentic Cuban Bolivar sigar though - no matter what it costs. I guess there may be a unique feel when shooting a $10K rifle.
I own a bunch of Schmidt & Bender, Hensoldt, Swarovski and older US Optics scopes and like them all. The March scopes made in Japan are top notch, and the new generation of Leupolds are getting better.
If you are ever in the Reno NV area PM me. I will let you shoot a couple of $10K plus rifles and sip a little $200 bourbon.
Is that yours?
Thata Luke likea reel sexie timeah!
Look at the Bergara HMR. It’s a lot of rifle at your price point. Good glass is where your money will be spent.
No, I have a lot of cool guns but not one of those. I was at the San Francisco gun show one year when a guy walked in with one that was "demilled". The upper receiver was cut in half with a band saw. The lower was still FA capable. The SFPD put a tie wrap on it and let the guy in the show.Is that yours?
Thata Luke likea reel sexie timeah!
Look at the Bergara HMR. It’s a lot of rifle at your price point. Good glass is where your money will be spent.
We haven't seen this many ignorant cliches all together in one thread in a long while around here
Thanks for the laughs.
Thanks for the invitation... Nevada sound like a perfect place for sipping that Papi bourbon. I noticed in this thread and in other places peple speak highly of Leupold scopes. Aren't those made in USA but with Chinese glass? Apple phones are also made in China but ...
It looks like Mr Pirate308 is repeatedly asking for attention. OK. My answer is:
1. If I were not ignorant about sniper rifles, I would not be asking questions on this forum.
2. By "zombies on the sreets" in one of my posts I meant zombies in some peoples minds after watching that mega popular "Walking dead" masterpiece on TV. It bumped the price of the Colt Python from 1500 to $2500 and it may be another year at least till I will be able to afford one. Colt Python is for a differen forum.
1. If I were not ignorant about sniper rifles, I would not be asking questions on this forum.
2. By "zombies on the sreets" in one of my posts I meant zombies in some peoples minds after watching that mega popular "Walking dead" masterpiece on TV. It bumped the price of the Colt Python from 1500 to $2500 and it may be another year at least till I will be able to afford one. Colt Python is for a differen forum.
Hi,
What??? Literally ZERO mentions in this thread of Leupold that I can find, lol.....
Are you making things up to get more cliche as you go?
Sincerely,
Theis
If you're going to ask questions, ask questions. Your dumb non-sequiturs, cliches, and editorial comments that seem to be meant to make you look smart but do the opposite is why you're getting so much pushback.
No fucking way is that POS PSA going to be as accurate as a TAC-A1. A solid bolt gun is also much easier to shoot accurately than a large frame gasser.
You of all people should not be calling someone’s intelligence into question.
At least I'm smart enough to know what to do when shit I buy is unsatisfactory, which is more than you can say for yourself.
It’s the single digit folks such as yourself that have the most significant impact on the hides average IQ.
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